Literary star is rude about Sarkozy

It seemed for a while that this year's Goncourt literary prize came and went without the usual row or scandal. Now we have one, of a sort.

There was general approval last week when France's most prestigious book award went to Marie NDiaye, 42, a Senegalese-French novelist. No woman had won the Goncourt for a decade, she is the first female black laureate and her winning book Trois Femmes Puissantes (Three Powerful Women) was a best-seller. 

But then the media dug up her less than glowing views on President Sarkozy. NDiaye went to live in Berlin in 2007 "in large part because of Sarkozy," she told les Inrockuptibles, an arts magazine, last August. "I find the police state, vulgar atmosphere detestable. I find Besson, Hortefeux, those people, monstruous. That refers to Eric Besson, Sarkozy's Minister for Immigration and National Identity, and Brice Hortefeux, the Interior Minister and close Sarkozy friend.

That was too much for Eric Raoult, a prominent MP for Sarko's Union for a Popular Movement. He tabled a parliamentary question to Frédérick Mitterrand, the Culture Minister, asking whether "the duty of a person who defends the literary colours of France should not be to show a certain respect towards its institutions." Her remarks insulted ministers of the Republic and the head of state, he said. A Goncourt laureate should observe un devoir de réserve, the obligation of discretion that is required of servants of the state.

The Goncourt crew hit back today, saying their prize winners have never been bound by a duty of respect for the state and its leader. Christian Paul, a Socialist MP, weighed in, accusing Raoult of "ignoble intimidation... an execrable form of censorship."

But now NDiaye has spoilt the fun by trying to soften her words. On Europe 1 radio today she said she did not mean to cause offence. "I don't like saying things like that. It was very excessive. I do not want to look like I was fleeing some kind of unbearable tyranny," she said. "For a while, I have found the atmosphere in France to be quite depressing, rather morose. It seemed that Berlin is more exciting."

We are waiting for a response from Frédo Mitterrand, who has not said much in public since the media last month dug up his adventures as a sex tourist in Thailand. In the meantime, Sarkozy has been brushing up on his Goncourt winners. He has just finished "re-reading" A la Recherche du Temps Perdu. There was a big row in 1919 when Proust won the prize because he had not fought in the Great War. 

Thursday update: Mitterrand has entered the fray, not very courageously. He has refused to take sides. "Writers who receive the Prix Goncourt have the right to say what they like," he said. "Eric Raoult, a friend and a very estimable man, has the right as a citizen and a parliamentarian to say what he thinks." 

 PS, on the subject of the Great War, did anyone notice that Carla Bruni seemed to be wearing high-than-usual heels and really towered over the President at today's Armistice Day ceremony with Angela Merkel ? And why wasn't she wearing a hat:

Comments

[RJBingham]

And why wasn't she wearing a hat?

She did not have one!!! or Harry connick junior stole it...lol

Charles, what on earth is going on, kill a muslim in Germany and you get life, the World celebrates the Berling wall falling, yet the Israeli's build a new one in its place with the US's approval...and the ass that is Sarko cannot decide whether he was there or not with his mate chipping away at the wall...unlike his popularity in the polls here....another poll to prove how un-popular he is becoming !!!

[Deborah]

I don't think 'softening her words' quite the right expression here! She was just pointing out that she had been excessive at the time ... she must be amazed that Raoult took it all so seriously.

Apropos Proust and A la recherche, Germaine Greer also amazed :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2009/nov/08/germaine-greer-proust

Just going to look for those heels ...

[Lys]

Marie NDiaye always lived in France, she only spend three weeks in Senegal in her life, and always identify as 100% French refuting the idea of "metis"*.
It thus seems inaccurate to identify her as Senegalese-French or it would require to add that Sarkozy is the Hungarian-French president.

* « Cela renvoie une image qui n’est pas la mienne. Mon père est rentré en Afrique quand j’avais un an. Je n’ai jamais vécu avec lui. J’ai grandi en banlieue, je suis 100 % française, avec les vacances dans la Beauce... On pense à tort que j’ai la double nationalité, la double culture. » Paris Match 2009

[Romain]

Yannick Noah said if Sarkozy was elected, he would leave France. But he is still sticking. Why Carla was not wearing a hat ? Because the Queen was not there.
Meanwhile, German Press made its headlines on the suicide of some footballer.

[billyboob]

why didnt she go back to that garden spot sennagal--because its full of sennagallese-- dumb uneducated savages but good socialists----

[Scaramanga]

Update:

http://www.lemonde.fr/culture/article/2009/11/11/marie-ndiaye-tente-de-desamorcer-la-polemique-nee-de-son-entretien-aux-inrockuptibles_1265610_3246.html

The URL is misleading, apparently Le Monde has changed the article. Marie Ndiaye is stating that she had given the interview before Eric Raoult's (outrageous) comments.
This comes a week after the latter has praised Ben Ali's reelection as a sign that Tunisia was a solid democracy. What is Raoult after exactly?

[Michel Rose]

Heureusement, elle persiste et signe:
http://www.lesinrocks.com/actualite/actu-article/t/1257963000/article/marie-ndiaye-je-persiste-et-signe/

[richard jones]

UMP take the 'ump too easy. This was an occasion when no words but a slightly whimsical smile, slight cocking of head and a miniscule supercilia (literally) would have done and said it all.

[Interested reader]

CB, as you would have noticed since posting your blog, the fun is not over yet. Apparently, the Europe 1 interview took place before Ms NDiaye had heard about Mr. Raoult’s comments. In her latest interview this evening with Nouvelobs, she explains that she had been trying to distance her initial criticisms from any suggestion that she was likening the situation in France to fascism of the 30’s. She has now said that if she had known of Mr. Raoult’s comments before hand, she would not have modified her criticisms which she still, resolutely, stands by.

I was thoroughly amused by the riposte from one Goncourt jury member, Patrick Rambaud, who felt that that Mr. Raoult was confusing the Goncourt with Miss France. The subtext, I read to mean, being that just because Mr Eric has noticed, like everyone else, that Ms NDaiye is a pretty, young (-looking, at any rate), black woman, he mistakenly seems to believe that this is a some empty-headed beauty contestant whose duty it is to spout acceptable but insipid views. Ms NDaiye, whether ugly or pretty, young or old, black or white, won the prize based on her book- the intellectual quality of which is evident to the reader. (I have enjoyed reading it enormously.)
By effectively taking on the force of the literary establishment, Mr. Raoult is only to be pitied. Talk about not mincing words...with wordsmiths!

(BTW, for reasons of full disclosure, I am a black African woman)

[Paul]

A thought here. Marie NDiaye 's repentir or rethinking about her interview may have something to do with her expectation of book sales as the winner of the measly Goncourt prize. Or her publisher's pressure.

[Surcouf]

"I find the police state, vulgar atmosphere detestable. I find Besson, Hortefeux, those people, monstruous."

"For a while, I have found the atmosphere in France to be quite depressing, rather morose. It seemed that Berlin is more exciting."

what's her problem ? La France... on l'aime ou on la quitte.

[rocket]

"PS, on that subject, did anyone notice that Carla Bruni seemed to be wearing high-than-usual heels and really towered over the President at today's Armistice Day ceremony with Angela Merkel ? And why wasn't she wearing a hat:"

I mentioned this months ago and no one picked up on it. It's because she has had enough of the bullshit. It's just the first step Charles.

[Daniel Strohl]

CHARLES,

You could have spared the questions in your PS: I am sure that a few posters would have been truly delighted to inform us on their own et "toutes affaires cessantes" that Mrs.Sarkozy did wear higher-than-usual heels and that she really towered over the President :).

More seriously: "But now NDiaye has spoilt the fun by trying to soften her words".

I would say that Mme NDiaye had a good idea to soften her words (even if this is somewhat counter-productive for journalists :). May be it would have been an even better idea to use moderate words (i.e. not outright and deliberately insulting as they were) right at the beginning.

"It seemed that Berlin is more exciting." "Seemed" is written in a past time - possibly Mme. NDiaye (or should I write Frau NDiaye?:) did already notice that there is also some racism in Germany. This over the Rhine racism takes sometimes more virulent and/or more violent forms than in France, especially in Eastern Germany.

[Lex Stevens]

Nothing much changes, does it?

In more liberal times, things are expected to be a little messy, with an active public discourse and no expectation of perfection. It is the substance that is important.

Then there are more authoritarian times, and they oft seem to be more concerned with image. It is the appearance that is important.

In the grand scheme of things, the Great Depression was not ameliorated because so many American artists sat it out in Paris, and the war took no turn because Huxley, Isherwood and Auden decamped to America. The world may be a better place that they did what they wanted, rather than what was expected.

Had I been able to close up my house in Boston and spend the Bush years in Spain, I probably would have done that, for the simple reason that I would not have had to live it day in and day out. I think that is what Ms. NDiaye is saying. She had a choice to go elsewhere, and so she did, and Berlin seemed and interesting change of scene. Nothing more, nothing less.

The ironic beauty of it all is that Raoult proves her point. Ms. NDiaye couldn't have written it better.

[azloon]

"the duty of a person who defends the literary colours of France should not be to show a certain respect towards its institutions." Eric Raoult

Thx Interested Reader. The Patrick Rambaud remark is priceless: Raoult was confusing NDiaye with Miss France.

This is the same sort of Rouge Cou caca we hear from our cretinous 'right.' It's consoling to know that our idiots aren't any worse than France's idiots.

[wrath]

In a nutshell, Marie Ndiaye doesn't know what the word "ridiculous" means. As for Eric Raoult, well..."la droite la plus bête du monde", right?

[Lobelia]

BILLYBOOB, boob being the operative word- Where exactly is "sennagal" ?

[isobel]

"Yannick Noah said if Sarkozy was elected, he would leave France. But he is still sticking." Romain

Maybe I dreamt it but I'm sure I saw an interview with Yannick Noah on the news on either TF1 or Fr2 a few days ago where he was asked why he'd moved to the States. He was being interviewed before a concert he was about to give in New York and he was asked about his move to the States - he said it was because his son was there and he wanted to spend time with him. I don't know if the move is permanent or not.....

[rockinred]

'BILLYBOOB'
Your comment at 11 NOV 2009 19:41:29 is pure, unadulterated, ignorant racist filth.

Charles, why have you allowed such vile nonsense to appear?

[Romain]

Isobel,

Journalists like to lure our "pipoles" into tricky interviews. Most of the time when they speak about politics it's a catastrophy and they are later obliged to "unspeak".
There is a sentence in Ndiaye interview which could be endorsed by many French rightwing supporters :"Et même si Angela Merkel est une femme de droite, elle n’a rien à voir avec la droite de Sarkozy : elle a une morale que la droite française n’a plus.»

[do-re-mi]

"what's her problem ? La France... on l'aime ou on la quitte."

What the frack?

"I find the police state, vulgar atmosphere detestable. I find Besson, Hortefeux, those people, monstruous."

Well I happen to agree with her and I am “ Caucasian”, sorry do you only have the right to say that only if you are white?

[Dominique II]

SURCOUF N'Diaye is every bit as much a Frenchperson as Sarkozy, and by your own logic we should ask the latter, since he obviously despises France as he found it and would have her follow [his perception of] better, foreign ways, to leave France this very moment and enjoy freemarket competition and nepotic hobnobbing in their countries of election.

[John O'D]

Eric Raoult should be reminded that a certain Victor Hugo chose exile from France (lasting 20 years) as a political protest against the regime then in power.
This didn't stop him eventually being recognised as a monument of French literature.

[dot king]

may have something to do with her expectation of book sales as the winner of the measly Goncourt prize

PAUL

A best-seller before the Goncourt was awarded

[dot king]

ISOBEL - I thought Yannick Noah was living in the States too.

[Romain]

Thursday update: Mitterrand has entered the fray, not very courageously. He has refused to take sides. (CB)

He is our newest Pontius Pilatus, with a flak jacket.

[Dominique II]

"France de flicage et de vulgarité", how can one say such horrors about that part of France which produces a gentleman like Raoult, who is so kind as to illustrate Ndiaye's opinion and provide a striking example.

As for Mitterrand, he obviously has been grounded for the duration. Otherwise, as Culture Minister (an uniquely French job) he would have understood that, on the bizarre issues of a "devoir de réserve" for writers, and of the definion as a Goncourt laureate as a writer who "defends French colours", ministerial silence is nothing but guilty endorsement.

btw the De Goncourt brothers were arch-conservatives, but they never saw their prize as a flag-waving device - its purpose is simply to reward the best fiction of the year ("le meilleur ouvrage d'imagination en prose, paru dans l'année"). Only a petty, rancid, utterly forgettable bottom dweller like Raoult would think of this strange drifting towards a Stalin-like or Vichy-like view of literature.

[Robert Marchenoir]

On the face of it, Eric Raoult is perfectly right.

Political neutrality is a statutory obligation of French civil servants.

Writers, as all those who make a living out of "culture" in France, are, for all practical means, civil servants. Just as they were in the USSR. "Culture" is heavily subsidised in a thousand ways, and French "artists" make sure everybody knows it's their God-given right to be supported by the taxpayer.

So I really don't understand all the fuss. He who pays calls the shots. Get over it.

[Rick]

Tangentally on-topic, but I couldn’t resist:

‘Speaking after the October 29-30 EU summit in Brussels, Sarkozy criticised the fact that the leaders of the four Visegrad countries - the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia - had held a pre-summit meeting to co-ordinate their positions. “If they were to meet regularly before each Council, that would raise some questions,” Sarkozy said.’ [Tony Barber, Brussels correspondent of FT]

[azloon]

Robert M.

You can't be serious...

[Lex Stevens]

"Writers, as all those who make a living out of "culture" in France, are, for all practical means, civil servants. Just as they were in the USSR." -- RM

So, then, you're saying that in order for Ms. NDiaye to have intellectual & artistic freedom she had to leave France.

Love it! You just can't make this stuff up.

[sleepy frog]

@ Robert Marchenoir, Raoult is so obviously interested in creating a buzz only for his own benefit that he writes in his question to the Assemblée : "Le devoir de réserve, dû aux lauréats du prix Goncourt", which literally means that winners of the Goncourt prize have a right not to be written about or spoken of in a rude way. Plus, Ndiaye gave that interview in August, and she received the prize in November. Raoult is clearly a case of "rétro-pédalage dans la semoule".
About "devoir de réserve", you'd better read that:
http://www.maitre-eolas.fr/archive/2009/11/12

[Daniel Strohl]

AZLOON,

"This is the same sort of Rouge Cou caca we hear from our cretinous 'right.' It's consoling to know that our idiots aren't any worse than France's idiots"

LOL ! I was thinking the same, the other way round :). There are idiots everywhere! This is a consolation :).

However, in matters of idiocies, I am afraid that the US are leading the field right now, despite the Prix Goncourt story! I saw a few days ago in a debate in the Congress a parlementary swinging a 7 months "old" baby. If I understood the scenario well (I am not quite sure - if I misheard the TV journalist, correct me), the parlementary (most probably Republican :) said that he was worried for the future of this baby because of Obama's planned health reform!

I am sure that the French will overtake (again :) the US-Americans pretty soon in matters of idiocies - however, our champion could come from the left, who are generally not bad either :).

May be we should also take care of unexpected competition coming from the other side of the Channel, where they seem to be not bad either, judging from many reader letters to The Times :).

PS:

More seriously - I thought first that Mme NDiaye was Senegalese born and bi-national or still Senegalese; therefore, I didn't appreciate what I called her insults. In fact, she is a French citizen. Therefore, she is perfectly entitled to express her opinions publicly. However, if one masters the French language (which is most probably the case :) one should be able to convey one ideas in a more civil manner. What she said (or is quoted to have said) is of the same level of literature as standard Sarkozy bashing reader letters to Libération. Of course, this is not meant to be a compliment :).

[dot king]

This is off-present-topic but on-recent-topic:

I just spent several minutes waiting, engine running, lights on, while two women, clad from head to foot in flowing black, tried to get a Twingo out of a very roomy car-parking space. (For non-French a Twingo is the Renault equivalent of a Mini.)
Had the driver's view not been impaired by the veil either side of her face, having the effect of the famous Dany Boon K-Way, the manoeuvre would have been completed in two - as it was it took at least 6 pulls out, back in, slightly round, left hand down a bit it is etc (and that was allowing for not having started counting straight away).

Two Catholic nuns in full habit - judging by their performance on the carpark they must be a danger on the roads.

Food for thought - or contemplation :)

[azloon]

For a prize of 10 euros, and the insulting notion that the winner owes some ridiculous fealty to the State, French authors might consider boycotting the Goncourt. No self-respecting writer would ever agree to such a condition. If the prize ever had prestige attached to it (and I notice some notable literarati have been previous winners), it has been soiled a bit.

[azloon]

Dot --

I would think that laicte sensibility would lead French nuns to forego habits for lay clothing. Are your sure these weren't burkas?

Because I had to have two cervical discs fused ten years ago, my neck rotation is about 75% or normal. So my most recent car purchase has a reverse camera so I can see behind the car while backing out, and I have sensors on both front and rear bumpers that beep and give a visual warning on my dashboard. And, to be completely safe, I make a point of never wearing long flowing black, hooded dresses if I have to drive.

--------

[What she said (or is quoted to have said) is of the same level of literature as standard Sarkozy bashing reader letters to Libération.] Daniel

Politicians left and right deserve a good ass-whuppin' on a regular basis.

[rocket]

Daniel

I love your posts. You say so much without saying anything.

[Daniel Strohl]

ROCKET,

"You say so much without saying anything"

You are a reincarnation of my late French teacher :).

[Dominique II]

"“If they were to meet regularly before each Council, that would raise some questions,”" (RICK finking on Sarkozy's latest lapse)

Would Dear Leader start going down the Chirac slippery slope of bullying the hapless Euro newcomers, and dictating what they can say or do?

Actually he may be right for once. If EU countries want to talk bilaterally it is their privilege; if they want to do so, on a regular basis, to bolster their case in EU matters, it bears observation. In that case, I'd just keep an eye open. Not like the famous letter from the newcomer countries to the Times, with no warning to the other EU countries, which broke all rules and customs of European diplomacy and was therefore duly shot down by Chirac - to the well-staged horror of the true authors and purported destinatories of the letter.

[Lex Stevens]

"However, in matters of idiocies, I am afraid that the US are leading the field right now, despite the Prix Goncourt story" D. Strohl

You bet we're leading the field! We're the best at everything, remember? :0)

[Rick]

Bravo, DOMINIQUE II, I confess I was starting to lose heart. Your point about the letter written by ‘the newcomer countries to the Times, with no warning to the other EU countries, which broke all rules and customs of European diplomacy’ requires some investigation.

For the time being, let’s assume that your assertion – about breaking ‘all rules and customs of European diplomacy’ – is right and correct in all respects. Wasn’t it still the wrong thing to say? Are you acquainted with the saying, ‘people in glass houses’?

If the fault of the ex-Soviet bloc countries was to be penniless newcomers on the European stage who had spoken out of turn – together, Chirac’s sin was to overlook the 101 times France had herself played fast and loose with the Euro-rules - alone. Are you acquainted with the proverb, ‘People in glass houses should not throw stones’? As for Chirac delivering sermons on ‘diplomacy’ – eh ben, mon vieux, elle est bonne, celle-là !

Euro-scepticism is an intelligent response to murky goings- on – and not some kind of moral failing. The funny thing is, many people lack the discernment to separate the Euro-sceptic (fundamentally loyal, though given to plain-speaking); and the Europhobe, (probably a bit of a basket-case).

Democratic deficit?

[sebastien]

AZLOON:

["For a prize of 10 euros, and the insulting notion that the winner owes some ridiculous fealty to the State, French authors might consider boycotting the Goncourt"]

The notion that a French novelist, let alone a Goncourt winner, is some kind of "civil servant" in bondage to the State is an odd one that I have never heard suggested by anyone except indirectly by Eric Raoult (and categorically by Robert Marchenoir earlier in this thread, but maybe he was joking). Certainly the Goncourt is no way government-run: it's made up of some rather decrepit authors who were successful and respected in their heyday, and is more or less under the control of the major publishing houses, and not the State. Public subsidies to the arts are still relatively generous in France, but there are very few grants available to novelists - nothing that would buy their loyalty or silence (performing arts get the most subsidies). The publishing industry as a whole may enjoy some tax breaks, but the French taxpayer gets his own back by buying very few books. That is why most French authors receive meagre advances (if any) when their books are accepted for publication, unlike the fortunes handed out over the Channel to such literary giants as Wayne Rooney (soccer player, £5 million advance at the age of 21 for a fascinating autobiography full of powerful insights into his world view) and Katie Price (topless model and renowned expert on breast implants, sex, ponies etc).

[dot king]

In fact, she is a French citizen. Therefore, she is perfectly entitled to express her opinions publicly.

DANIEL

Oh dear! No comment! :)

[dot king]

"I would think that laicte sensibility would lead French nuns to forego habits for lay clothing. Are your sure these weren't burkas?"

AZLOON

They were definitely nuns in flowing black habits, the white bit around their faces and a cross emerging from under the cape bit - no doubt, therefore, about it.
I had already crossed their path on foot on the carpark - they going in the opposite direction to me - ie they were going towards their Twingo and I was going to check out what the cinema had on offer. By the time i got back to my car they were in the Twingo and revving like hell (oops) in the parking space next to where my car was.
There is a Carmelite convent on the edge of Condom (OK an open invitation to ribaldry if ever there was one), no doubt they were from there.
IMO there ought to be a law against this dangerous clothing. ;D
Seriously, when it comes down to it, it's exactly the same argument isn't it? It's just that seeing nuns in habits is erm habitual. :)

[azloon]

Sebastien

I was starting to get excited about the Katie Price book thinking I might find out more about 'sex ponies,' but then realized i'd missed your comma.

I did notice she'd written a book series called "Perfect Ponies' which again my twisted mind had turned into a possible prurient matter, i.e. her 'perfect' breast implants, but alas, again I was disappointed to discover this "pipol' person actually writes children's books, hopefully which don't deal with the subject of breast augmentation. (How to make your Barbie Doll a 36D using Play Dough).

[Rick]

SEBASTIEN, what a lovely piece you wrote on the State’s role as patron of the arts. All the same, wouldn’t you agree that the State is much more involved in ‘la vie associative’ of France – clubs, societies, associations – than is the case in other countries? Second, that this doesn’t raise an eyebrow? Third, that such intrusiveness by the State is a considerable restriction of the freedom of the individual? And forth, that this is an enduring feature of the corporatist state?

[Leo]

RICK,
Sebastien will probably respond but since your question was public let me give you my point of view:
First: Yes
Second: Yes
Third: No
Fo(u)rth: No

[Leo]

RICK,
Sebastien will probably respond but since your question was public let me give you my point of view:
First: Yes
Second: Yes
Third: No
Fo(u)rth: No

[sebastien]

RICK:

["wouldn’t you agree that the State is much more involved in ‘la vie associative’ of France – clubs, societies, associations – than is the case in other countries?"]

'State' is perhaps a misleading term in this connection. Most Loi 1901 associations (and as you know, there are a vast number of them in France) have relatively little to do with central government and administration (the "state"). Such public aid as your average small association may be lucky enough to receive will most likely consist of a small grant from the local Mairie, or help in kind (the use of an office, a meeting room, the municipal printer, a storage facility etc). And that's as far as the ambitions of 90% of associations will extend. If they're more active and ambitious than that, they might move up a notch and also get some kind of subsidy from the Conseil général (the département); they'll feel they've really hit the big time if in addition they can extort something from the Conseil régional (the region). By that stage they might also have squeezed a few euros out of the Préfecture (which of course is the arm of central government), particularly if they're (say) organizing a festival or similar event with more than local appeal. Finally (jackpot!) a very small minority will get a subsidy from the relevant Ministry. The point is that all these different levels of financing come from sometimes competing entities which can be of quite different political complexions, and different again from the central government. It's not one vast oppressive apparatus single-mindedly bent on enslaving the local chess club. There are over 35000 elected mayors in France (far more than anywhere else in Europe), and they're not just answerable to the Préfet, but to their electorate.

[" Second, that this doesn’t raise an eyebrow?"]

Why should it? It's perceived as a desirable bridge between the various public powers and the different components of civil society. The former hand back tax money, and the latter complain that it wasn't enough.

["Third, that such intrusiveness by the State is a considerable restriction of the freedom of the individual?"]

Frankly, no. The Comité de salut public is definitely not involved. For instance, I can think of three rather left-wing theatre companies I know, who feel that the grants they've received after years of trying (and in two cases out of the three, they're grants from right-wing municipalities) are a definite enhancement of their freedom to continue putting on weird plays reviling the System and the Guignol/Mr Punch who rules us at present.

["forth, that this is an enduring feature of the corporatist state?"]

I suppose so. But as corporatist states go, France is some way behind such iron-fisted regimes as the Scandinavian countries, the Netherlands, Austria, and so on. I see no very negative connotations here. One man's corporatism is another's solidarity, and la solidarité is still a quaintly important concept here (though it pales into insignificance compared to France's win against South Africa this evening).

[Rick]

Thanks, LEO. Can you understand that I still have difficulties with the Republic’s all-embracing nature? Here is a perverse example: what right has the State to define ‘religions’ as opposed to ‘sects’? By all means, crush Scientology – but not by laying claim to theological competence (in either sense).

SEBASTIEN, may I remind you that France’s lynchpin ‘demi de mêlée’ went to finishing-school in England? Frankly, I couldn’t be more pleased and prouder. As for your response, you’ve outdone yourself. Fascinating!

If I permitted myself the slightest eyebrow twitch, it’d be over the theatre groups’ grants. Some of us would say that you don’t accept gold without becoming just a little more careful not to offend. Besides isn’t the subsidised challenging of authority an odd concept? Personally, I’d prefer ‘bums on seats’, and bank-loans, as well as grants... and found a reasonable solution: choose to perform exam set-texts. There’s a kind of theatre-making that comes close to vanity-publishing. Do you in France have the gloomy tradition of not performing a play if the cast outnumbers the audience? Je parle en connaissance de cause.

[sebastien]

AZLOON:

If Katie Price did decide to "write" a book about sex ponies (great concept) she'd probably get a record-breaking advance.

[Laurent]

She hates France, then I'm sincerely happy she's living a better life in Germany or wherever else she thinks is better.

[sebastien]

RICK:

[“Some of us would say that you don’t accept gold without becoming just a little more careful not to offend.”]

Certain rules of politeness do have to be respected, and are, scrupulously. For example, in your publicity material, interviews and programmes you absolutely have to mention and fulsomely thank the municipality/conseil général/region/ministry or whatever for their generous support. Funny how back-scratching can reach across political boundaries.

[“Besides isn’t the subsidised challenging of authority an odd concept?”]

I find it rather an appealing one! Revenge for parking tickets.

[“a reasonable solution: choose to perform exam set-texts.”]

Actually that’s an important part of the activities of the companies I mentioned, and of many others. They do a lot of performing and “animation” in schools, and in theatres for school audiences, and this tends inevitably to be safe, inoffensive material related to the syllabus, or to classic French authors (for example, check which author has the anniversary of his birth or death coming up, and do a play around him which you tout around the schools). Schools are seen as an important source of revenue (and at the same time, the funds received in the form of subsidies allow the company to charge the kids a very modest price for a ticket). The arty, anti-establishment stuff can be kept for festivals, tours and so on.

[“Do you in France have the gloomy tradition of not performing a play if the cast outnumbers the audience? Je parle en connaissance de cause.”]

I was once one of the six audience members present at a Paris theatre when exactly that happened. I don’t recall it ever actually happening with the companies I was involved with in the past, but then again, some of the actors were so manic they’d probably have performed for two drunks and the theatre mice.

[azloon]

"...a definite enhancement of their freedom to continue putting on weird plays reviling the System and the Guignol/Mr Punch who rules us at present...

....some of the actors were so manic they’d probably have performed for two drunks and the theatre mice.

With your sense of humor, I am releasing the subject of 'sex ponies' to you for further development.

Your description of the French arts subsidy scene sounds weirdly familiar.

[daniel Gates]

'BILLY BOOB'
This chap is unquestionably; an ignoramus,functional illetrate.He needs to get out more.And Charles Bremner,you share a bit of this parochial,inward -looking mentality about non-whites, achievers..simply,'they are not deserving'..attitude.Perhaps you guys should have risen above these myopic,trivialities by now.

[Rick]

SEBASTIEN, I see what you mean about ‘Monsieur le maire’ as first line of defence for one’s civil rights. Surprisingly, though, you seem to have interpreted State ‘involvement’ in Loi 1901 associations (clubs, etc) as limited to hard cash or help in kind. I was thinking more of the State as obstacle, the ‘Big Brother’ aspect. I seem to recall something about the State offering such associations administrative help at no cost – in order that your innocuous stamp club can comply with in all manner of intrusive, inquisitive, and time-wasting form-filling. Am I leaping to conclusions?

On the matter of funding, you mention various elected bodies but you don’t mention ‘bring-and-buy’ sales, coffee mornings, bequests, charitable foundations, past members, members’ subscriptions. Presumably, such methods could provide funding for our ‘stamp club’?

Looking back at your responses, I’m struck by the frequency of your allusions – explicit or implied – to party politics. Would this be because you are a ‘political animal’, or is this because the context is France? By the way, your leader as Mr Punch it’s so apt... even down to the rather large ‘instrument’ for the ‘beating’ of the Madame Punch.

You wrote: ‘France is some way behind such iron-fisted regimes as the Scandinavian countries, the Netherlands...’ I was thinking of ‘corporatist’ less in the bossy, Franco sense that in the protecting, comfort-zone, exclusivist sense. Isn’t there a clash between health provision in France and ‘les valeurs républicaines’? And wouldn’t Republican foot-soldiers prefer to see equal benefits for all? (You know, the sort of thing that makes burly Americans blanch and go weak at the knees!)

When I wrote about being ‘careful not to offend’, I was alluding to the danger of self-censorship. And, oh, SEBASTIEN, you disappoint me writing, ‘Revenge for parking tickets’. Sometimes you sound so French!

[sebastien]

RICK:

["I seem to recall something about the State offering such associations administrative help at no cost – in order that your innocuous stamp club can comply with in all manner of intrusive, inquisitive, and time-wasting form-filling. Am I leaping to conclusions?"]

Probably, but I'm not entirely sure what you mean. What sort of administrative help would that be? You can always call URSSAF etc and ask for clarification over the phone (or go on their website), but firstly, URSSAF is not the State (here, the institutional separation of the Social Security system from the State is a bit of a sacred cow) and secondly, they certainly don't do the accounts etc for you. The same applies to the tax authorities, who do represent the State.

["you don’t mention ‘bring-and-buy’ sales, coffee mornings, bequests, charitable foundations, past members, members’ subscriptions. Presumably, such methods could provide funding for our ‘stamp club’?"]

All of them can, and all of them do. Yes, the "vide-grenier" actually exists in France.

["Would this be because you are a ‘political animal’, or is this because the context is France?"]

Because the context is France. I'm more of an apolitical amoeba.

["Isn’t there a clash between health provision in France and ‘les valeurs républicaines’?"]

Couverture universelle has existed for nearly ten years. But please don't talk too loud here about the French health system, we might be swept away by an avalanche of block capitals.

["you disappoint me writing, ‘Revenge for parking tickets’."]

Votre déception me déçoit. Vous étiez contractuelle dans une vie antérieure?

["Sometimes you sound so French!"]

Tiens donc.

[Daniel Strohl]

SEBASTIEN,

"but firstly, URSSAF is not the State"

Je confirme :). Comme je savais cela déjà à l'époque où nous étions encore en activité, j'avais écrit par lettre recommandée avec AR à la direction de l'URSSAF de Strasbourg pour leur dire (poliment mais clairement) que l'URSSAF utilisait des méthodes de fermiers-généraux modernes :).

Il s'agissait d'une sombre histoire de date de valeur d'un paiement - la réponse a également été polie, avec des explications très détaillées d'où il ressortait très clairement que l'URSSAF avait raison et que nous avions juridiquement tort. Cette savante démonstration, en parfait français, se terminait par une phrase lapidaire nous informant que notre pénalité de 10% était néanmoins annulée :).

[dot king]

I received this by round robin e-mail from a friend today - seems somehow slightly pertinent to the discussion.
And it isn't anonymous.
and I make no comment one way or the other.

À TRANSFÉRER AUTANT DE FOIS QUE VOUS LE POUVEZ !

50 secondes de lecture à couper le souffle.

*Pour combler le déficit de la Sécu, nos chers gouvernants ont trouvé que le mieux, c’était encore de nous faire payer...
1 - Dorénavant, sur une consultation médicale, nous versons 1 euro.
2 - Nous sommes restreints lors de nos arrêts de maladie ...
3 - Nous devons consulter un généraliste avant de voir un spécialiste ...
4 - Pour tout traitement de plus de 91 euros, nous en sommes de 18 euros de notre poche.
5 - Taxe de 0,50 euros sur les boîtes.
6 - etc.......

Toutes ces mesures sont destinées à combler le fameux trou qui est à ce jour de 11 milliards d’euros.
Or, savez-vous que :
1 - Une partie des taxes sur le tabac, destinée à la Sécu, n’est pas reversée =7,8 milliards d’euros.
2 - Une partie des taxes sur l’alcool, destinée à la Sécu, n’est pas reversée = 3,5 milliards d’euros.
3 - Une partie des primes d’assurances automobiles, destinée à la Sécu, n’est pas reversée = 1,6 milliards d’euros.
4 - La taxe sur les industries polluantes, destinée à la Sécu, n’est pas reversée = 1,2 milliards d’euros.
5 - La part de TVA, destinée à la Sécu, n’est pas reversée = 2,0 milliards d’euros.
6 - Retard de paiement à la Sécu pour les contrats aidés = 2,1 milliards d’euros.
7 - Retard de paiement par les entreprises = 1,9 milliards d’euros.

En faisant une bête addition, on arrive au chiffre de 20 milliards d’euros.*
Conclusion, si les responsables de la Sécu et nos gouvernants avaient fait leur boulot efficacement et surtout honnêtement, les prétendus 11 milliards d’euros de trou seraient aujourd’hui 9 milliards d’euros d’excédent.
Ces chiffres sont issus du rapport des comptes de la Sécu.
Faites circuler ce message.
À force de tourner, il arrivera peut-être un jour sur le bureau d’une tête pensante censée passer son temps à gérer l’argent des contribuables.
Si les pouvoirs publics étaient vraiment convaincus qu’il nous faille consommer 5 fruits et légumes par jour pour sauver notre santé et donc l'assurance maladie, ils supprimeraient la TVA sur ces produits.

Cordialement.
Evelyne DUBIN
Secrétaire Générale - Adjointe au Directeur Général
INDL (Institut National du Développement Local)
Avenue Michel Serres - BP 32
47901 AGEN Cedex 9
Tél : 05.53.48.06.74 - Fax : 05.53.48.06.71 - Mob: 06.72.19.53.50
Mail: e.dubin@indl.fr

[Daniel Strohl]

DOT,

Interesting mail (this is not meant ironically! ). However, one may presume that the 20 milliards d'Euros récupérés sur le dos de la SS :) are used elsewhere and are not stupidly thrown down the drain. At least, I hope so :)

PS:

Dot, what is a round "robin" e-mail? Of course, I know what a round e-mail is, but I am puzzled by "robin".

[dot king]

DANIEL: A round-robin e-mail is one you are supposed to pass on and encourage others to pass on - I usually delete them straight away, but it always says "transfer this to as many people as possible" or the French equivalent.
At least this time I did as was expected of me :)
I'll see if I can find a proper definition of "round robin" - or indeed other definitions - there are bound to be many.

Here's one I didn't know:

http://dictionnaire.phpmyvisites.net/definition-round-robin-9646.htm

And here's the wiki range of definitions, of which the first is very appealing - we get it from French:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round-robin

I also thought I was a choral arrangement - a way of singing something "en décallé", but that doesn't figure amongst the definitions, so maybe that's just a "round" without a robin - a memory failure. :)

[dot king]

DANIEL again - "round robin" I had thought of it also as a way of interpreting music, especially sung, the same line begun at intervals by different singers - there's some at about 2m 20 in this clip - but I haven't found anything to confirm that for sure, but there's quite a bit of what I think I mean in this "Deconstructing Johann" by the King's Singers (no relation :)) - here it is anyway, just for the sheer pleasure of hearing and seeing them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDZpZPFGzOA

They come here regularly to the "Eclats de Voix" festival in June in and around Auch - in the cathedral they are nothing less than heavenly.

[dot king]

DANIEL again, sorry - the most common definition of robin is rouge-gorge, which we sometimes call robin redbreast - I realise this explains nothing, but he does stay with us all year round . . . (me, grasping at straws :))
This little chap:
http://www.ftdr.com/images/photos/news_Robin_Redbreast.jpg

And of course Robin is a boy's name in English English, and in French though not as common, and is used as a girl's name too in American Englsh.

[dot king]

DANIEL: More on the robin - it is mostly associated with Christmas, most of which comes from pagan practices and beliefs - I thought you'd like this - it has a nautical meaning too.

"ROBIN REDBREAST : Legend has it that the robin received its red breast from trying to remove the bloody thorns from Christ's head at the Crucifixion, with a small drop of His blood falling on the bird and injuring itself in the process:

'A Robin Redbreast in a Cage
Puts all Heaven in a Rage.'
Extract taken from 'Auguries of Innocence' : William Blake

It is also believed traditionally that the robin received its red feathers as it was taking water into Hell for the burning sinners.

Has nautical associations. Said to be extremely unlucky to kill this bird (see Thomas Bewick's 'History of British Birds', 1798). The hand that does so will continue to shake thereafter. Traditionally the Irish (UK) believe that a large lump will appear on the right hand if you kill one, and in Yorkshire (UK) if the person owns cows then the milk will become blood coloured. It is a reputed fact that whatever you do to a robin you will suffer the same tragedy. Breaking the eggs will result in something valuable of your own being broken. Flying in through an open window or tapping on the window is a sign of death being present. To see a robin sheltering in the branches of a tree indicates that rain is on the way, whilst to see one chirping on an open branch indicates that fine weather is imminent. Some believe that the robin will not be chased by a cat. You should make a wish when seeing the first robin of the season, making sure that you are quick as if the bird flies away then no good luck will be present for the next twelve months. (See Mystical WWW Mystical Birds Introduction). "

With all these superstitions, easy to see why the name became associated with eternity, unbroken chains, circles etc.
I didn't know that the robin was associated with Easter as well as Christmas - so in at the birth and at the death - a full circle, round robin, no less.

[Rick]

DOT KING, you will find the following more than useful.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/round-robin.html

I confess I thought it no more than a petition for the unbrave.

[Daniel Strohl]

DOT,

Grand merci pour toutes ces explications - grâce à vous, je suis maintenant incollable sur les "robins" et autres "round-robins"!

A ma connaissance, il n'y a pas en France de superstitions attachées au rouge-gorge (ne pas confondre avec le "rouge-cou" de notre ami Azloon :). Mais cela dépend peut-être des régions.

[dot king]

RICK - thanks I saw that one, but the tournament definition is included in one of my links - please don't ask me to remember which one . . . probably the wiki

;)

[azloon]

INFO re 'round robin'

{"A round robin. A petition or protest signed in circular form, so that no name heads the list. The device is French [N.B. Daniel], and the term seems to be a corruption of 'rond' (round), 'ruban' (a ribbon) and originally used by sailors.}

--- from Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, 1870 (one of my favorite reference books)

So forget birds altogether (sorry, Dot, you did some serious research)

CONFESSION re robins, the birds

When I was ten, I had a new BB (small, round pellets) gun, and was roaming around with my best friend looking for something to shoot. I saw a bird on a telephone wire, quite distant, took aim, pulled the trigger never expecting anything to happen, and the bird fell to the ground. I went up to it, saw it was a robin-redbreast, and and have felt horrible about it ever since. I have never shot a living creature since.

[azloon]

Actually, Daniel, my neck is quite red but it's from playing a lot of golf in the bright, arizona sun.

It does not follow that if one's neck is red, that he is a 'rougecou.'

[Maggie]

Well, Azloon, at least the robin you killed was not the same kind as Dot was talking about, with all the bad luck connected with it. Yours would be an American robin (with an orange breast, actually).

The Americn robin is part of the thrush family. I don't think this is even related to the British robin, but I am not sure, as I don't have an European bird book. I have been meaning to get one for awhile now.

Our robin is a sign of spring, not of Christmas, and is one of our most common birds. It's also one of the good singers. I get the feeling from what Dot said that the British robin is a more timid bird than ours.

[Rick]

I did something similar, AZLOON, and still feel a tinge of shame. I never used that air rife again, as far as I can recall. A robin redbreast against a white background is a traditional motif on our Christmas cards because they seem endearing little chaps.

[dot king]

So forget birds altogether (sorry, Dot, you did some serious research)

AZLOON

Your definition appeared in my first or second link - but in French - so you are excused for not being able to understand it (sweet smile :)) - 'twas to avoid being the head of the list which often resulted, when petitioning the king (no relation), in having one's head forcibly removed ('nother sweet smile :))

[dot king]

"I get the feeling from what Dot said that the British robin is a more timid bird than ours."

MAGGIE

Oh no, he's one of the bravest little creatures, often nesting at ground level in an old watering can or anything that provides a shelter. You can get quite close to a robin if you're quiet about it.
When you say "our robins" - do you mean French or North American robins?
The robins here (in SW France) are the same as the ones in Britain.

Are your North American robins a migrating species? Ours are here all year round - hence their being associated with snow and Christmas (when those two things happen at the same time) - the typical English Christmas scene - as we think of it I mean. English Christmas cards often feature both a robin and a snowman.

I found it interesting that it's also associated with Easter - therefore spring, resurrection, eggs, even though it's also the end of the life of JC while we associate it also with the time of birth.

To everything turn turn turn . . .

[dot king]

PS MAGGIE

If your North American robin is migratory, that would explain why it's associated with Spring (I'm now assuming you mean NA robins when you say "our").
And the European robin (UK included) is also one hell of a good singer - if the NA variety is of the thrush family, then he too will have a lovely and characteristic song.

[dot king]

PPS MAGGIE

Here's a page on the European robin - it even has a little box to click on where you can listen to the song.

http://www.oiseaux.net/birds/european.robin.html

(I know longer care about petitioning the king [no relation :)] and other life-threatening activities - the robin is much more interesting)

[dot king]

I think these are the robins you mean MAGGIE - they do look more like thrushes or blackbirds - and according to the text which you can click on, they are a migrating and a flocking bird - quite different from the European robin.

http://www.learner.org/jnorth/images/graphics/robin/html/FightingMidair_AndyWilson.html

I think that's my last word on the subject (unless anyone out there knows differently) - I'll try and work up some interest in football . . .

[azloon]

I am delighted to learn that the NA robin can be killed indiscriminately without the curses Dot listed above. i feel so much better.

Rick, i feel your pain....

[Maggie]

Yes, Dot, when I said "our" robin, I meant the North American robin. I've never seen a robin here in the south of France.