Rough justice for French journalist and pilot

The subject today is the abuse of power by French police and judges. Two lurid examples have made the headlines for different reasons. One involves a journalist and the other a recreational pilot. Since I am both, I of course feel extra indignation.

Journalists do not usually get sympathy when they complain about mistreatment,  but the tale of Vittorio de Filippis [in picture], a manager with Libération, has caused an  outcry. It tells you about the heavy-handed methods of a system which has extensive power to arrest and hold people.

Plainclothes officers hammered on de Filippis' door at 6.40 am last Friday. He was arrested in front of his two young sons and insulted. An officer called him "worse than garbage". He was taken in handcuffs to a holding cell and twice subjected to an intimate body search. He was questioned without access to a lawyer and released five hours later.

The police carried out their raid on the orders of Muriel Josié, an examining judge. De Filippis' alleged offence is that he was liable as publisher of Libération for a defamatory comment left by a reader on its internet site. In France, when you sue for libel, the case is prosecuted as a criminal one. In  this instance, the victim of the supposed libel, an internet businessman, has already lost two cases against the newspaper.

In other words, a judge ordered a newspaper executive to be dragged from his home and abused over an internet comment.  "I barely had time to reassure my son that I was not a crook and that this had to do with the newspaper," said de Filippis.

The behaviour of the judge and police stirred anger from most quarters over the weekend, including from President Sarkozy's UMP party. But today, Rachida Dati, the Justice Minister, said the police were carrying out standard procedure because de Filippis had ignored a summons to come to the judge's office.

As Laurent Joffrin, the Libération Editor, says today, the point is not that a journalist was given a hard time, but that judges and police behave like this often. "The inquisitorial procedure confers considerable power on examining judges. Some abuse it, as Judge Josié does," says Joffrin. "Too many police officers display culpable brutality and a contemptuous attitude towards defendants, especially if they are poorer, less educated or foreigners." Anyone who has lived much in a French city can testify to truth of that remark about the police (not the Gendarmerie, who are more civil).

There has been a steep increase in judges exercising their right to hold people overnight or longer for questioning on minor offences -- with no contact with lawyers. The practice was condemned today by Serge Portelli, a senior Paris judge who is an official with the magistrate's union, a left-leaning body. "We are facing an uncontrolled... explosion of the use of the means of coercion that are at the disposal of the state," he said.

   

The other case, involving the pilot, was driven by an extra ingredient: media hysteria. It began on a Sunday afternoon in late September when Xavier Thiry, an engineer aged 37, was flying his wife and two friends back to Paris from a visit to the Loire valley. Thiry finished up in jail for 24 hours. He was treated as a potential terrorist and last week he stood trial on charges of endangering life.

Thiry was not paying enough attention that Sunday and his Cessna 172 [in picture] strayed about 500 feet higher than he should have been in the strictly controlled airspace near Versailles, just south of the capital. You are not supposed to do that, but it happens.

Thiry had the bad luck to be in the same zone as a government jet that was bringing François Fillon, the Prime Minister, back from his Loire region home. The controllers alerted Fillon's pilots -- air force officers -- to the presence of the Cessna. They saw the other plane and delayed their descent, although the Cessna was never closer than a kilometre away and at a lower altitude. The two Air Force pilots later filed a report of an "airprox" -- a formality when a pilot believes another aircraft has come too close. About a hundred are made every year and a few dozen lead to disciplinary action by the aviation authority.

Normally Thiry would have received a letter. In this case, though, someone tipped off a news agency which reported that the Prime Minister had narrowly escaped disaster. All the media leaped in, reporting  Fillon's supposed brush with doom, the violent "emergency manouevres" of his Falcon jet and other fiction.

So the prosecutor at Versailles threw the book at the hapless private pilot. He was arrested and questioned for 24 hours as a criminal while his home and flying club were searched. He was banned from setting foot in aiports and he was rushed to trial in record time -- for an infraction that would never normally go to a court.

The verdict is to be announced in a couple of weeks. He will probably lose his licence and be fined. Unlike the journalist's case, there has been no outcry. The media thrive on fanning fears over air safety and non-specialist journalists usually get the aviation facts wrong. As a journalist, that point is always a salutory reminder of the difficulty of reporting a field which excites emotion and in which you do not have expertise.

Yes, these two cases are relatively small beer involving middle-class people. But they are still an illustration of the heavy-handed methods that seem to be increasingly deployed by the justice system. 

And a disclaimer to our anti-French-bashing monitors: I know similar things go on in many places, including the "Anglo-Saxon" world, but I write about France.    

Comments

[Craig McGinty]

No need for the disclaimer Charles, I think people in many countries are more worried about the growing influence that government has on all our lives, and how quickly laws for one thing can be twisted to be used elsewhere.

[John Bull]

Perhaps heavy-handed policing is spreading Europe-wide as part of the EU masterplan to create a massive EU police state, with no protection for individuals. French pilots and journalists, British MPs, where will it all end?

[Leo...]

Charles,
as a citizen of this country I can but agree, with utter dismay, to the truthfulness of your comments.
It is a shame that any citizen here has to fear the judicial system.

[Sigognac]

This is really disgusting and I am disgusted...
Libération happens to be one of the most vocal opponents of the current party in power (whatever one thinks of the newspaper itself). Coincidence?

[azloon]

[a government jet that was bringing François Fillon, the Prime Minister, back from his Loire region home] CB

is this standard procedure -- a minister using a government jet to travel to his home? does he or she reimburse the government for the expense of private travel (as is done in u.s. if the official can't devise some excuse for claiming official business)?

re the police

no police force, anywhere, is to be trusted. they are a barely necessary evil, their behavior best reviewed by (non-police) civilian review boards, and severe penalties imposed on perpetrators. in these cases, it seems the judicial system itself conspires with police thuggery, making review more difficult.

never trust a cop.

always question authority.

[Right on Az... on the plane, yes it's standard. The three-engined Dassault Falcon costs about 8,000 euros an hour to operate, everything included. The official excuse is that Fillon chooses to fly the journey that takes about an hour on the fast train because his security people would cause too much inconvenience to passengers clearing the train for explosives before he got on. French rulers have a habit of profligate use of official jets. President Chirac used to get his to take off in the early evening and circle around France burning jet fuel before heading out to nearish destinations so he could get a peaceful sleep. CB]

[Julio]

The case of M. De Philippis have such a mediatic impact because he's such a high target, but these tactics are used everyday for all sorts of cases.

The Outreau debacle highlighted the shortcomings of an entire system in the most vivid way possible.

What happened to the findings and recommendations of the commission who investigated those -too numerous to count- shortcomings ?
Your guess is as good as mine...

Strangely ,polls about how confident french people are of their institutions never seems to make it into the public domain.
Wonder why.

[Andrew]

The disclaimer is inappropriate, the authorities in France are incredibly heavy-handed. My wife, who is French, was prosecuted over a minor business dispute with her partner, and eventually acquitted after considerable legal costs. She was subjected to an 11 hour garde a vue after a dawn raid. Meanwhile theft by the partner, blatant disregard by her of undertakings to the police re partnership property which she walked off with, etc were completely ignored, one can only suppose because the partner, a young attractive woman, was sleeping with the procureur or the prefect. France, a nice place if one does nbot scratch the surface or have to deal with the locals. The system is unfortunately rotten.

[Nouf]

Sarah P. was right : "Hey Gov, out of my way!".

[richard.jones]

We have had a similar case here in Greece this weekend. A journalist (IMO - a real scandal-monger - paparazzi type - wrecked many lives) was arrested in Plaka (now almost a no go mostly African immigrant area) by the K (Krima) Police who wanted him to tell them where a distant cousin of his was (apparently a well-known professional criminal (ruins in the family?). Our journalist (Vassilis Ongopoulos) resisted and threatened to call for help, at which point on the streets of Plaka the K Police beat the merry Jesus out of him.
A crowd gathered to watch the scuffle, one of whom, a brown-skinned bearded man, tried to give some basic BandAid care to Ongopoulos and was duly matraqué for his pain. The purveyor of care was a Coptic priest and now sits in Igiea Hospital with several broken bones.
'In the present tense situation in regard to Plaka here in Athens and other places in Greece, Europe and the peaceful world we must expect more unfortunate situations of this kind. We do not condone the police action but understand that sometimes the need for a lawful solution might impinge and infringe (a truly wonderful piece of Greek here which I will not bore you with) upon the daily rights and liberties of some of our, and other states' citizens from occassion to rare occassion,' was the response from the Interior Minister.
Expect to see more and more mutterances of this kind from more and more officials less and less infrequently.
BTW the K Police are quite heavily armed (ordinary Greek Police carry a special 0.25 pistol with 3 rounds) and KPol are élite enough to do embassy guard duty.

[Tom Taylor-Duxbury]

At the moment I have the joy of a French tax investigation, so far I have spent several thousand proving the sale of a car and a loan from a friend was nothing abnormal in life.
The French State is paranoid in the extreme (as we can see from our own recent days, most socialist governments seem to suffer from that). The French ruing classes were born of revolution and seems to expect to die of the same sort of infarction.
Never forget too we now have the euro arrest warrant!
Forward to the brave new world in unison.

[Alex (London, UK)]

I travel regularly to the South of France (Cote d'Azur) and I can only agree to the very poor impression policemen give in the region. In general foreigners agree that they are extremely arrogant and not interested in claims coming from them. I recently lived myself police brutality in Antibes when I asked for assistance at the police station. Moreover, they refuse to identify themselves by any number or other means so you cannot even claim against them! France is good if you don't scratch its surface.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

I have only one question at the moment: when are we going to see Chirac before a court charged with misuse of taxpayers' money in spending a million and a half euros on his household food and wine in one year?
Otherwise, on the above it is up to the French journalists to petition or strike or cause enough disturbance to stop the police from winning everytime. It needs a campaign by a united Press under the same headline:
J'ACCUSE.

[dot king]

On Inter 13h news today they interviewed a representative of one of the magistrates' unions who expressed her, not outrage exactly, but alarm at the abuse of power so easily available to over-aurhoritarian judges.
They also gave some background to the case of the head of "Free" the internet and telephone company, who had De Philippis arrested. He has had brushes with the law for pimping (proxynète - orthographe?) and for involvement in prostitution, sex shops, and peep shows. And this starting at the age of 19.
And the police called the journalist "pire que la racaille".
Wow!

IMO the judge's motivations ought to be examined very closely as she reacted too readily with the arrest mandate in favour of someone so transparently with an axe to grind.

Frightening too how quickly the ministers of Justice and the Interior have jumped to the defence of the arrest and the police procedures used.
Even a Figaro journalist interviewed condemned what had happened, but as you say, not defending his Libé colleague, but saying that this is exactly what happens every day to ordinary people who don't have the connections to make a stir about it.

Let's hope it gets laughed out of court and Mr "Free" gets hit for loads of damages.

CHARLES: I hope you can spread the pilot story, which I remember very clearly, to a wider and possibly a French readership - you must have contacts at Libé, Ch Hebdo, le Canard etc...? :)

[Fernandez]

The French media seems either to be in the tank (or bed, a la Ferrari) for Sarkozy or on the butt end of the court system (civil or criminal).

The pilot I don't have any sympathy for. After Bombay, I can understand why the government was on heightened alert and, if the guy can't read a map, he shouldn't be flying. Small mistakes have disasterous consequences in the air.

[The government only got involved after the event because the media blew up what was a relatively minor infringement of airspace. My point was the disproportion of the punishment. If you argue that it needs criminal prosecution then this should be applied to everyone, not just an unfortunate who gets caught in the media glare because the Prime Minister's flying limo was nearby. CB]

[Daniel Strohl]

(not the Gendarmerie, who are more civil) - CHARLES

However, the gendarmes although being more civil are nevertheless military personnel wearing uniforms :) - they are on the payroll of the Ministère de la Défense.

More seriously : this morning, I heard on TV that the Libération journalist had neglected to comply with two (or three ?) previous summons by the judge.

SHOULD THIS BE TRUE, one may find normal that the judge sent police forces to bring him manu militari before her. Journalists too should comply with the law.

Regarding the insults, the same radio said that de Filippis had been arrogant with the police, which then answered in the same tonality. Here, it will be difficult to find the truth ... However, in the case of the summons, it should be easier to sort things. One may assume that summons are made in writing and that there are records of the proceedings.

[Tavi]

To all these worrying examples of abuse of "judicial" power, can we not add the Clearstream investigation?

Why on earth would DdV have ordered any investigations, let alone a DST one, if he knew they were false having helped make up the list? the best thing for DdV??

If he had added Sarko's name to the List, the only good course of action would have been to avoid any investigations that could find out the truth, and instead leak it immediately to the press and hope that, by the time it was revealed to be false, mud would have stuck to Sarko. Instead, Villepin told Gergorin to stay quiet about it until they knew more.

It doesn't make sense for him to be guilty. Maybe some people would have stopped when Rondot told them he thought the List was far too good to be true instead of waiting for the DST to declare it 100% false, but all this proves is that DDV desperately wanted Sarkozy to be guilty.

Yet it was his duty anyway to investigate it. If Sarkozy hadn't appeared on the list, no one would have found fault with DdV's actions. Or if Sarko had been a loyal Chiraquian and DDV had suppressed any investigation of the List, he would have been accused of covering up for friends, even if it did turn out to be false. And why would he refuse to be tried by the special ministerial court if he was guilty, instead of putting himself at the mercy of these Sarko-controlled prosecutors? He knows he's innocent.

People should ask themselves why on earth such a ridiculous unfounded case has proceeded so far! And why the media has been so complicit in it, with its screaming front page headlines of how DdV had encrypted computer files that would show his Clearstream guilt, or how he had shredded a report vindicating...yet when these are found to be completely untrue, the same "news"papers barely bother to mention it in the back pages if at all. Or take the past headlines saying Rondot denounces Villepin, and yet if one bothers to read past that into the article (as the paper knows most of its readers WON'T do), Rondot actually affirms he thinks DdV did believe the List was true!

There has been a deliberate attempt to make people think DdV is guilty, and in whose interest is this...?

[Fernandez]

[The government only got involved after the event because the media blew up what was a relatively minor infringement of airspace. My point was the disproportion of the punishment. If you argue that it needs criminal prosecution then this should be applied to everyone, not just an unfortunate who gets caught in the media glare because the Prime Minister's flying limo was nearby. CB]

Fair enough. There shouldn't be an indiscriminate application of the law. Pilots who violate restricted airspace are routinely investigated here by the FAA. If you violate military or high security areas, you face a criminal investigation. You cannot fly over the Capital or White House without being escorted down by F-16s.

On the other hand, there is a saying in the law that you take your plaintiffs as you find them. There is a reason prime ministers get heightened protection over every other joe blow in their sky-limo. Had the pilot not be 'liable' he wouldn't have to worry about the degree of damages.

[qwerty]

President Chirac used to get his to take off in the early evening and circle around France burning jet fuel before heading out to nearish destinations so he could get a peaceful sleep. CB

But it's a hell of a distance from the center of Paris to Le Bourget, especially in the rush hour traffic...

I've had a free ride in a (private) Falcon : one hour flight, three passengers = 8000/3 = 2666 €. Not bad, that's about what I'd have spent on a long distance flight (business class). Advantage of private plane: no customs or police controls that i was aware of.

[Daniel Strohl]

DOT,

Correct spelling : proxénétisme (pimping)
- proxy is a technical word used in Internet server matters :)

"and possibly a French readership"

DOT, I remember having read several (short) articles on the matter in French papers. However, the technical explanations given by CHARLES were mostly and unfortunately missing. As Charles puts it rightly : "The media thrive on fanning fears over air safety and non-specialist journalists usually get the aviation facts wrong". I would add "and some other facts as well" :)

[Daisy]

I still can't get over the fact that libel is criminal over there. Don't the cops have enough work to do?

[Romain]

The arrest warrant is a normal procedure after de Fillipis failed to respond to 3 summons by the judge. What is challenged is the way the arrest was executed, with disproportionate use of coercion : handcuffs, body search etc.
There are some guidelines on police procedures, but they were ignored in this instance are they are too often.

[dada]

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=vvpgUyXGKKc

[Daniel Strohl]

Re : my post dated 1 DEC 17:14

Hereafter a link in which Liberation quotes the Justice Minister, Mrs. Dati, saying to the Sénat that the Liberation journalist didn't comply with three previously made summons and that therefore the judge was legally entitled to use the procedure which she used.

http://www.liberation.fr/medias/0101270107-affaire-libe-dati-legitime-l-interpellation

[Blendi Progri]

I too, am appalled, police needs to be kept on check and not let lose easily.

In UK there is a scandal, enlarging and evolving as we speak, how police raided the office of an MP and arrested him.

!

true, but scary.

When journalists and MP-s are arrested and beaten up (fr & uk) what chance do the rest of us have?

[Emilie]

and it will only get worse!

french criminal procedure is a real shame for anybody defending the human rights cause.

as a lawyer, I'm desperate explaining clients that before the police or the examining judges I can't do almost anything at all.

during the 'garde à vue' (police detention?) people arrested are only allowed to talk to a lawyer during 30 min!! while detention at police office can last 24 to 48 hours! It's like a mini guantanamo!

Talking about the examining judges, the law provides that they are supposed to examine "à charge' ET "à décharge"!! What a joke!

never saw a french examining judge taking into account on the same level arguments of the defence and police/prosecutor charges.

A few years ago, those judges were considered to be so severe (their favorite mean to get one's confessions is detention whatever the gravity of the charges) that we had to invent 'le juge de la liberté et de la détention'(JLD) to balance their severity, as one can stay in detention during three years before trial.

at least, the 'juge d'instruction' is not anymore as hyper powerful as he was before...but still remains superpowerful as the JLD is somehow an examining judge too who will try not to contradict his colleague. So it didn't help really to lower the number of people detained...

To conclude, IMO, on that specific topic, France has a lot to be ashamed of and I believe that we deserve the worst french bashing.

PS: one of french lawyers'favorite joke : 'I do trust in the justice of my country!'

[Featherstonehaugh]

The complaint is from someone found guilty of controlling prostitutes -he has sued the paper several times for defamation and lost each time -they reported his sentence of two years-supended. He is also very rich.
The convocations go to the Newspaper's lawyers and obviously something went wrong. Even Sarkozy admits that there has been a cock-up here.
You should explain the way MP's are treated in Britain before whining about Europe.

[dada]

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=qCioreUDhJA&feature=related

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=oYDzCzSiaz4&feature=related

[dada]

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=WiX7GTelTPM&feature=related

[dada]

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=H_1N2YF0_pc&feature=related

a sugar in your tea.

[Mauvezin]

>> Andrew
... have to deal with the locals.
*******************
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May be , we (us, the French)have to leave our own country !???

[Mauvezin]

>>Alex
" France is good if you don't scratch its surface."
**********************
Easy
Can you scratch an other country surface .
We're fed up of those whimpering strangers.

[christophe]

As a former inner city teacher , brought up by family with the idea of 'arn't our police wonderful' ,sadly I have learn in life to agree with above comments 'NEVER trust the police'[it's the nature of the job of policeofficer.]Perhaps more people are finding that out now , not just criminals.

[christopher muir]

Those were the days, my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we'd choose
We'd fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way...

(I found this old British Council report):

On May 28, 1987, a single-engined Cessna 172 light aircraft flown by a 19-year-old West German amateur pilot, Herr Mathias Rust, made an unauthorized and unimpeded flight of more than 650 km from Helsinki (Finland) to the centre of Moscow, where it landed beside the walls of the Kremlin (the seat of the Soviet government) close to Red Square.

[Daniel]

This is shameful, and I, for one, definitely do not consider it small beer.
I'm glad that you've written about it. Even though France has historically had a tendency to centralization and concentration of power, surely the day has long since passed when this sort of behavior is required.
Even if this rich fellow got one of his buddies on the judicial bench to harass an editor, this is not the sort of behavior one expects from civilized people.
My beloved tales of Inspector Maigret will never be the same to me again(Insert melodramatic note here).

[Romain]

The guidelines on arrest procedures do exist :
http://www.cnds.fr/ra_pdf/reponses_nov_08/Avis_2007_130.pdf

This is another case of routinely ignoring them.
Sarko contradicted Dati and MAM, who did'nt find anything wrong in de Filippis treatment.
I bet a cabinet reshuffle is up for 2007, Sarko has already launched a recruiting campaign aimed at socialists. A very entertaining president lol.

[richard.jones]

The trouble is when you scratch the surface of France it always brings them up in a rash.

[sebastien]

CHRISTOPHE:
['NEVER trust the police'[it's the nature of the job of policeofficer.]Perhaps more people are finding that out now , not just criminals.]
You're absolutely right. They are undertrained and poorly paid, and many of them are brutal morons. I was once insulted, manhandled and kicked by two drunkards in a carpark in Avignon (they told me they didn't like "les bougnoules" although I am unmistakeably Caucasian, and said "on va te rabattre ton caquet, mec" although I hadn't said a word). Later I went to the police station to file a complaint. While I was waiting I saw the same two men come in and go through to the offices at the back: they were detective inspectors. It was like something out of a film. I changed my mind about filing a complaint - I had no witnesses - and left quietly.

[Francois D]

Emilie has said:
"french criminal procedure is a real shame for anybody defending the human rights cause."

Congratulations to you, hoping that you will not be, by this note, on an "edwige like" list (but CB deontology protects you).

Despite a good job from the parliamentary committee, consequences of Outreau judicial error have not been made: the "judge of instruction", often young and alone, remains the most powerful figure in France.

[dot king]

This morning, the story was still on the major section of the news, with a nice little Post Scriptum to illustrate how the police go OTT in inappropriate circumstances -

An exercise in "prevention", police - school relations, officers in a classroom in the Collège publique in Marciac (where the world-famous jazz festival is held each year) gave the pupils instructions: they were told that another officer with a dog was going to come into the room. They were to sit quite still and keep their hands on their tables and not try to touch it, while the dog sniffed their bags in search of drugs. Two girls were taken out of the room and made to empty their bags for inspection in the corridor.

Naturally, this was an exercise, a demonstration, but unannounced, and imagine it was your kid subjected to this.

We're a long way from the time when if you had a problem you could look for a policeman and everything would be OK.

From the above story comes only authoritarian testerone-loaded (even from "les fouilleuses") threat, not information, not protection, not security, not the transmission of information about police-work.

Here's a link to a local article, the Inter version is diffrent, not nearly as awful as the reality.

http://nogarojournal.imadiez.com/2008/11/25/marciac/

(For non-French bloggers, collège is children aged 11 - 15/16)

[Daisy]

Lets not allow governments to intimidate people like this. When I hear of a judge or politician abusing power in this way I report it on every internet site I can- from www.sucksalot.com to the London times....

The internet and free expiration threatens these miscreants. So, keep then on the defensive by expressing your views on-line.

[qwerty]

i won't say this is like abu ghraib but...almost? is it like US cops stopping and frisking not-even-traffic offenders? Like people suspected of being drug "mules" at airports?

in any case, it's shocking. some time ago a similar case was reported on France Info, involving an accountant who was suspected of fraud, which turned out to be unjustified. He went through the same humiliating fouille à corps (for alleged book-keeping errors!!!). The guy didn't have much of a "recours" and didn't get much publicity, apparently this case will lead to some reform (or so Sarko says)

[Lancia]

Wow...you should move to the USA...the press can write, or say anything about anyone and all they have to do is post a retraction on page 752.... and all is right!!!!

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

Very few people really know how the police behave behind closed doors, but those who do have a bad experience will pass their outrage on to their children. In that leafy borough where General de Gaulle passed the war years, Happy Hampstead (champagne socialists and lobster thermidor liberals) in north London, an avuncular, beefy-faced police sergeant was sent to the local school to talk about road safety etc. At the end of his talk, the teacher asked: "Does anyone have a queston for the sergeant?" Silence. She asked again, and one little boy raised his hand looking rather fearful at the Sarge, and asked: "Are you a Nazi?"

[Pierre]

Je proteste!
An abusive Typepad's judge is violating my free speech right and wrongfully accusing me of being a spammer.

[Sorry Pierre. It must be something in the system. I'll try to find out why. It's published now. CB]

[Pierre]

I also find the disclaimer unnecessary. For two reasons.

First is that French bashing « a horreur du vide ». It therefore comes after Charles Bremner’s posts (empty of any trace) as naturally as the sun comes after the rain (or vice versa in England).

Second is that Charles Bremner’s report is right on every point.

Except one on my opinion : these abusive or excessive practices are not congenital to the inquisitorial system. They are, as Romain rightfully outined concerning the de Fillipis case, the result of a perverted application of the (modern) rules either by the police or some judges. It’s a question of personal psychology and collective culture. Eric de Montgolfier (Nice’s procureur famous for his free speech http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ric_de_Montgolfier) often described it well concerning the "magistrature"'s docility.

It is of course « intellectually » much easier, and lazier, to blame the system as a whole and claim the natural superiority of the accusatoire procedure, to cry foul on all the juges d’instruction and repeat they are the most powerful persons in France. Very far from it. Remember Thierry Jean Pierre ( http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thierry_jean-pierre ), and ask Eva Joly ( http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Joly ), Eric Halphen (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Halphen ) or Marie-Odile Bertella Geoffroy (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie-Odile_Bertella-Geffroy. They are often (not only in financial affairs and corruption cases) isolated, pressurised, exhausted and hard working civil servants.

They can also in some cases prove to be blind, deaf and sectarian, or simply fearful. Those ones sometimes even take humiliating procedures against their owns. Here’s a reminder http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_L%C3%A9vy_(magistrat)

Emilie
Joke for joke here’s an american one appliable to (some) french lawyers as well : « How can you tell when a lawyer is lying? His lips are moving. » (PS I can raise my hand and say I ain’t no judge and have never been).

[Pierre]

It seems Typepad's anti spam brigade (meaner than french cops)did not like the wiki links. Too bad for those possibly interested by the judges I mentioned.

[qwerty]

Pierre
I've met Eric Halphen, he writes books now.

[Terry]

"De Filippis' alleged offence is that he was liable as publisher of Libération for a defamatory comment left by a reader on its internet site."

Im surprised they havent come for you Charles given some of my posts. Especially, my comment about Azloon and the sheep. I heard those sheep have retained counsel.

[azloon]

Terry

the american west is a land where 'men are men,' and sheep are afraid.

[John Gregory Flinn]

"There has been a steep increase in judges exercising their right to hold people overnight or longer for questioning on minor offences -- with no contact with lawyers."

I dont know how old, or recent the relating legislation to the two cases is, but it seems that the agressive application and mendacious
meaning is something new.
Whilst not wishing to frighten those posts of a gentle disposition, it does remind me of Alexander Solzhenitsyn's book "The Gulag Archipemlago" and his travails with article 58 of the Soviet Code - "Crimes against the State".
This was very broadly interpreted to include "intent, malingering and even being taken prisoner (by the Nazis)".
Clearly, the "crimes" in your reports might be interpreted as "intent to defame, or endanger (Fillons) life".....!
No penalty is pending - is it?

All those who vote for the main-stream political parties probably think they are merely voting for a nuance of liberal democracy.
They are mistaken.
Their votes are used to elect legislative fodder; where rules, regulations, procedures and institutions to enact the same are designed to limit our freedoms, and which is inevitably leading to a totalitarian entity.
So there!

[Pierre]

Qwerty
Thanks but I knew.
If you meet him again ask him how powerful he felt when Pasqua's cops were trying to set him up through his step father,or at any other time during his "Sept ans de solitude".

[rocket]

Terry

"Im surprised they havent come for you Charles given some of my posts. Especially, my comment about Azloon and the sheep. I heard those sheep have retained counsel."

There is no class action in France that is why each sheep's complaint will be examined individually and.. oh believe me they will come for you and Charles at the same time. It may take years but these feisty French judges will never let this thing go.

[Valentin]

CB: "disclaimer to our anti-French-bashing monitors"

That would rather be an indication of a spike in bashing, no? :)

CB: "My point was the disproportion of the punishment"

Was the court decision made already? :O

CB: "has already lost two cases against the newspaper"

We'd rather dismiss complaints from people having already lost other cases, right.

CB: "although the Cessna was never closer than a kilometre away and at a lower altitude"

Facts seem to be a bit different: here I'm reading 60 meters and emergency avoiding procedures:

"le pilote effectue sa phase d'approche de l'aéroport de Villacoublay, en région parisienne, il déclenche la procédure d'évitement d'urgence pour échapper à une collision avec un avion de tourisme. Une soixantaine de mètres seulement les sépare."

http://tf1.lci.fr/infos/france/justice/0,,4170448,00-le-pilote-du-cesna-qui-a-frole-fillon-devant-le-juge-.html

CB: "President Chirac used to get his to take off in the early evening and circle around France burning jet fuel "

How bad and inconsiderate towards our mother planet !
Chirac aux Assises !

:)

[Yes but....On the Cessna, don't believe what you hear in the media. The link that you quote is typical. There was no procédure d'urgence and they were not 60 metres apart. They were 0.6 nautical miles apart, which is approx one kilometre. The 60 metres referred to the altitude difference (200 feet). CB]

[Daniel Strohl]

Re : "rough justice for French journalist"

The media published the version of Mrs. Dati (hearing in the Sénat) saying that the judge was right to call for the arrest of the journalist, who hadn't deemed it necessary to answer three previous successive summons - in my (somewhat simplistic :) opinion, journalists are ordinary citizens, who should comply with the law as everybody else has to do.

Hereafter a link to a long and detailed article in the weekly "Le Point" describing the arrest of de Filippis as seen by the police. It is of course totally different of the journalist's version.

Most of the papers, not to say all, up to now explained in detail or hinted that the cops had insulted heavily and unprovoked the journalist.

I tend to believe much more the police version than de Filippis version, for two reasons :
- even if police are as somebody said on the blog ill-trained and ill paid, it is probably an exaggeration to infer from these facts that they are stupid as well. Any policeman knows that journalists are a "material" which is delicate i.e dangerous to handle in an inappropriate way.
- if one believes Le Point (which I do :), the police team in charge of the arrest was led by a "lieutenant de police", a lady. She was accompanied by two "gardiens de la paix" (cops wearing uniforms). In my opinion, ladies are often more brainy and diplomat than men :). May be it is for this reason that she was "volunteered" to do the job :)

http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-societe/affaire-filippis-les-policiers-livrent-leur-version/920/0/296626

[richard.jones]

John Gregory Flinn is right it is as if the state is saying they will protect us from criminals (in indirect proportion to the seriousness and physical menace of the offence), but we must pay for that shelter with less personal freedom and less liberalism abroad.
How fundamentalists of every size shape, colour and ethos must be writhing in paroxysms of glee and satisfaction.

[Terry]

Interesting blog. The US has constitutional protections so this kind of conduct doesnt happen. When it does, cases are dismissed and the police get sued. We have a bill of rights. Does France an equivalent?

[Terry]

Rocket:

"oh believe me they will come for you and Charles at the same time. It may take years but these feisty French judges will never let this thing go."

LOL. They'll have to come to New Jersey to get me. And Im armed. Mais Charles....

[Hillblogger]

Get over it Charles, it happens all over the world... Speaker blames police and Serjeant-at-Arms for Commons raid on Damian Green

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5280443.ece

For crying out loud, just because your friend is a journalist, why should he be treated with kids gloves if he's done something wrong?

[You didn't read my disclaimer at the end of the post. In three years of this blog I have lost count of the people whose only argument is "get over it". CB]

[rocket]

Hillblogger

Funny you should mention to Charles to get over it especially with your endless plethora of comments on other blogs as per the terrible injustices of French bashing.

Yet you seem to refer to the 3 or 4 "towelheads" (you got the figure wrong Mr. Diplomat) as you call them with a certain satisfaction who killed 3000 innocent people in the US on Sept 11, 2001. Not one of those killed were armed except "our heroes" with fire hoses and axes to try to save lives.
******************************

From Miquelon

Hillblogger Says:
December 2nd, 2008 at 10:31 pm

Hahahahah!

” The US were scared to death by three or four towelheads.”

So very true — I like that!

*****************************

I could tit for tat you about how several "towelheads" took out 10 heavily armed French soldiers in Afghanistan not so long ago but I won't because of the respect that I have for any dead "allied" soldier and their families.

You are so blinded by your hate that all you can think of is to spew your vomit on the rest of us.

You should try to get over your arrogant and hypersensitive attitude that you must have learned in Diplomatic circles as you claim to be a part of.

It's really not difficult to run your argumentation into the ground.

[rocket]

Terry

"We have a bill of rights. Does France an equivalent?"

Yes they do as a matter of fact. It's called.

shut uppa ya face!

[Valentin]

Is there other source for the airplane incident than what the media published? That's all I could find. I dont have Charles' connections, of course :)

From Daniel's link I find out the paperman's brutalizer was a lady and two gardien de la paix ??
All that media clamour and parliament "outrage" is just a populist joke then?!
Charles, we need the whole story, the truth and nothing but, detailed declarations from "victim"'s family and neighbours.
And if the truth is the one I suspect, can we expect a mea culpa to replace the disclaimer?

To Terry: there are protections here too, police does get sued every now and then, and judges are not really friendly with the police.
Of course those who pose as a victim to counter the shame of being brought to the judge by force, cry out "police brutality" and "biased justice" (preferably political).
Just like police abuse always has some perfectly good excuse. But the times when it was all a matter of whose word weighs more are past.

(btw Rocket's continuous presence here is a proof that CB's disclaimer should have read:
"I can't do anything about France bashers, so all of you delicate Frenchies will have to stop whining and bash right back: this is also what this blog is about!")

[Valentin, there are specialists blogs covering the Cessna incident. For example, on http://www.aero-blog.com/1500-euros-damende-18-mois-de-suspension-de-licence-625.html

you will read this:
"Les éléments de l'enquête ont révélé que l'écart entre les deux avions était d'environ 1000 mètres (0,6 mille) dans le plan horizontal et de 60 mètres dans le plan vertical. Cette dernière valeur a souvent été retenue de manière isolée et ne reflète pas la réalité d'un vol qui se déroule en 3D. Le tribunal semble en avoir pris conscience.

Autre information clef, le pilote du Falcon a reconnu à la barre sa vitesse de 342 Kt au FL070, vitesse qui doit on le sait, sous le niveau 100, être inférieur à 250 Kt!" CB]

[Fernandez]

I dunno Charles. I'm starting to lean toward Daniel Strohl's version of events....

[Pierre]

Terry

"Mektoub" (it was written):
one had to come with the usual argument roughly meaning "oh but we have this and this in the US (UK) and this and this would NEVER happen. Don't you french underdevelopped democrats know what a bill of right is?"
These tremendously constructive remarks change the focus of CB's post: instead of exchanging views on what and why happens in France, we are constantly reminded how superior the AS are on any issue.

If ever you had forgotten that as CB mentioned "similar things" such as police abuse and denial of justice can and do happen under any democratic system including the land of the free and home of the brave here are two reminders.

http://thereport.amnesty.org/fra/regions/americas/usa

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

[Daniel Strohl]

PIERRE,

May be I have missed something, but TERRY's formulation (in fact, a question) was much more cautious, even if it was tainted with a bit of irony :).

Since he is a lawyer, he knows that one should always listen to both parties. This did not happen in the French press (at least the part of it I read usually) until yesterday's article of Le Point.

La solidarité confraternelle est une chose, l'honnêteté intellectuelle en est (quelquefois) une autre ...

[sebastien]

HILLBLOGGER:
["Get over it Charles, it happens all over the world... Speaker blames police and Serjeant-at-Arms for Commons raid on Damian Green... For crying out loud, just because your friend is a journalist, why should he be treated with kids gloves if he's done something wrong?"]

For crying out loud, just because someone is involved in a libel case, why should he be submitted to early-morning arrest followed by two "fouilles au corps" in as many hours? The British police may have searched Damian Green's office without a warrant, but at least they didn't search his back passage.

http://www.liberation.fr/medias/0101269719-descente-policiere-contre-liberation

According to the journalist: "On m’emmène dans une pièce glauque, avec un comptoir en béton derrière lequel se trouvent trois policiers dont un avec des gants" (kid gloves?).

Seems disproportionate to me. If that's the law, then it is outrageous and oppressive and should be changed.

[Valentin]

Ok Charles. Well the "punishment" for Mr. Thiry seems to be a €1500,- fine and 18 months licence suspension, after all.

Re Daniel's version of facts: it actually comes from the police report; it was also reported by other papers like left-leaning Marianne. A look at the press shows that no one supports de Filippis' version. Most articles limit to quoting all parties involved, de Filippis, the police, spokesmen from the two magistrate unions, also Fillon and Sarkozy's "emotion" and that's kind of it.

The only ones actually taking Filippis' side, endorsing his version and speaking of police brutality is the journalist union (duh!) -- and Charles Bremner.

[rocket]

Valentin, Val or simply____________

"Ok Charles. Well the "punishment" for Mr. Thiry seems to be a €1500,- fine and 18 months licence suspension, after all."

Yeh oh well right Valentin, Val or simply____________

What the hell right? Even if no legal infringement was committed the judiciary needs to send a strong signal. To bad for the innocent.

Democracy ends where the state begins.

Ca promets!

I have always enjoyed how some people are ready to roll over and lie down in front of authority even if that authority is legally flawed.

[Daniel Strohl]

VALENTIN,

"A look at the press shows that no one supports de Filippis' version"

Yes, but this is only true for the past two days. Before that, almost everybody in the media was hammering heavily on the judge and the police. They could at least have cautioned their audience by saying that they were waiting for the police version (which came may be a little late).

Valentin, regarding Marianne : I don't read their prose, since I am disgusted by their "titres racoleurs" and their ads on TV in the same tonality. However, I have no problem to read Libération (even if in the case of de Filippis, their reporting could have been less one-sided :).

[Let me butt in on the question of versions. The point is the barbarous way that de Filippis was treated -- with police turning up at 6.40 am, handcuffing him and the double body search. No-one is contesting that. If he did not respond to a summons, they could have simply visited his office and asked him to accompany them. The cowboy behaviour was ludicrous -- especially when his alleged offense was so trivial -- libel from an internet commentator on the newspaper's site. And once again, the outrage has nothing to do with his being a journalist. CB]

[Rocket]

CB

"The cowboy behaviour was ludicrous"

Please! These are Frenchmen not cowboys

[Valentin]

Charles,

It turned out handcuffing and searching was done at the police station, before going to the Palais de justice. The reasons given were the extreme nervousness of the person and precedents of use of harming objects in these situations.

No humiliation in front of the family (on the contrary, it was him insulting the officers), no arrest, and standard procedure at the station (which he could avoid by keeping courteous and following the officers peacefully).

The question now is: should a "patron de journal" benefit from a special procedure? Mr. .... de Filippis, Liberation -- you go right ahead sir, there is the business class lounge on the left. We'll call a cab for you right away!

(ps: had they gone to the journal for him, you would have seen banners already with "police violating Liberation offices without warrant")

[Daniel Strohl]

CHARLES,

" If he did not respond to a summons"

He did not respond to THREE previous summons ! I am not a law specialist, but may be the behaviour of Mr. de Filippis is more or less "un outrage à magistrat".

There is no reason to admit this from anybody, not even from a journalist (I am not a fan of the French law system and even less of the magistrates unions, but there are rules in a democracy; this is right now the system we live in here - even if it is not perfect :).

If I were a journalist in a foreign country (I think Mr. de Filippis is Italian), I would not allow myself to ignore three successive summons - not even a single one and not even if I were convinced to be totally in my good right.

IMO, his attitude was highly arrogant. And I believe that he thought that this would have no consequences for him, since he said to the police (if one believes their version) : "Je suis directeur
de journal !". Personally, this type of argumentation would not impress me much :). But it did probably provoke stupidly the police (hence the "cow-boy" behaviour).

[Pierre]

Daniel

"... TERRY's formulation (in fact, a question) was much more cautious, even if it was tainted with a bit of irony :)."

Was it really? As usual in the "bashing" exercise the limit betwin irony (if irony there is) and belief is so thin that (my guess is) the bashers themselves don't really remember on wich side of the line they're standing.

"Since he is a lawyer, he knows that one should always listen to both parties".
I know Charles Bremner is the Times' correspondent in Paris and for the rest have no idea of who's who and don't give a damn. It's part of the pleasure of a blog isn't it?

"La solidarité confraternelle est une chose, l'honnêteté intellectuelle en est (quelquefois) une autre ..."

Right. La solidarité a-t-elle en l'espèce primé sur la vérification? Il y a plutôt eu un décalage dans a communication. La difficulté est que chaque version apparait crédible et qu'elles peuvent d'ailleurs l'être toutes deux. Quant à l'honnêteté intellectuelle c'est un trait dont certains contributeurs réguliers de ce blog usent avec une infinie parcimonie.

[Terry]

Pierre said:

"one had to come with the usual argument roughly meaning "oh but we have this and this in the US (UK) and this and this would NEVER happen. Don't you french underdevelopped democrats know what a bill of right is?"
These tremendously constructive remarks change the focus of CB's post: instead of exchanging views on what and why happens in France, we are constantly reminded how superior the AS are on any issue."

Pierre:

As Daniel said, I asked in the form of a question. In other words, I was looking for information on how it works in France when the police go over the top when they have here. I am not really trying to compare the two. I wanted to know what recourse citizens have. You gave me a lump of coal. Valentin gave me an answer. Thanks, V.

Oh, and as for the US system being superior, Im not so sure. Just because the US has protections doesnt mean the police dont go overboard here too-witness Rodney King. I do some municipal court work and have I some stories for you. But you can read them on my blog. Whenever I decide to start one.

One other thought for you, Pierre. We are not being graded here for our comments (at least, I dont think we are). There's no test at the end. If I want to go off on an irrelevant tangent, the thought police arent going to come for me. (Although, Rocket's not so sure of that either.) Of course, my comment would probably be ignored when I did go too far astray. Part of the beauty of reading these blogs is sometimes the writing takes you to other thoughts that the author didnt necessarily intend. That is how we expand our thinking. That is, Pierre, unless you are one of those diners whose peas can't touch the carrots on the plate.

~sigh~. I now owe Daniel a legal fee for defending me. What is your hourly rate, Daniel?

[Daniel Strohl]

PIERRE,

Ce que je n'arrive pas à avaler dans cette histoire, c'est que le journaliste de Libération s'en soit pris à des exécutants, qui n'étaient certainement pas au courant du détail de ses problèmes judiciaires, plutôt qu'à la "responsable", c'est-à-dire la juge. C'est plus facile et moins risqué de se défouler sur de "petites gens" que sur un juge ...

On peut penser, jusqu'à preuve du contraire, qu'il s'est bien gardé d'être grossier avec elle comme il l'a (sans doute) été avec les policiers qui le lui ont (probablement) rendu.

Ceci dit, concernant le bashing outré, j'ai dit à l'un ou l'autre ce que je pensais devoir leur dire et puis basta. Depuis, je ne lis plus que les contributions qui m'intéressent - et il en reste beaucoup :)

[Pierre]

Terry

No objection votre honneur on your approach of how blogging (should) exchange and broaden views. I'll have both peas and carotts on that one. (I'd rather have a navarin d'agneau btw). When we both decide to write our blogs we might exchange -or not- adresses.

Since you were sincerely wondering and asking if France had a bill of rights, I certainly misunderstood your post and did over-estimate the irony (didn't I?). I guess I was confused by the apparent ingenuity of the question coming from a regular observer of french affairs who, as I have now been informed, happen to be a lawyer. Chat échaudé...
Let me add -if necessary- to V's precision. France's bill of rights (Déclaration des roits de l'homme et du citoyen) was adopted on August the 26th 1789 (under close influence form the US declaration of independance). It is "integrated" to the preambule of the 1958 fifth Republic's constitution, and therefore has a constitutionnal value. When he was France's Interior Minister during the 80's, Pierre Joxe had it sticked up in every commissariat (a very useful reminder in that time but not sufficient). France also ratified The Convention européenne des droits de l'homme in 1974 and it is directly "invocable" in french courts since 1981.
Of course none of this offers an absolute proection against police abuses and our own tradition of "bavures". However justice sanctions, procedural rules and internal control have grew much tighter since the 90's. Yet at least concerning usual "civilité" towards the ordinary citizen or behaviour towards youngsters cops still have "pas mal de pain sur la planche".(Youngsters too as a matter of fact.)
I'm sure Daniel won't charge you. Good case great publicity. If he does, sue me and I'll hire him on the "aide juridictionnelle".

[Daniel Strohl]

TERRY,

No hourly rate for you ! A double Scotch (or Bourbon) will do :)

PIERRE,

"(a very useful reminder in that time but not sufficient)"

This seems to have had the same limited result as the "décret anti-alcoolisme" (I don't remember the exact title) which is sticked up in every bistrot :)

[Valentin]

Nothing to do with police brutality. This is just to shatter Terry's dearest hopes once and for all :

http://www.20minutes.fr/article/278614/People-Melissa-a-accouche.php

[sebastien]

DANIEL STROHL:

On peut quand même comprendre la colère du journaliste : il s'est fait cueillir et menotter à 6 heures du matin comme un bandit en cavale, devant ses enfants mineurs, sans pouvoir joindre sa femme ou son avocat... Vous-même faites preuve d'un calme et d'un savoir-vivre exemplaires, mais nombreux sont ceux qui s'énervent pour bien moins que le traitement infligé à M. de Filippis, ce blog en témoigne tous les jours !

Pour ma part, ce que je trouve inadmissible, c'est que la loi avalise de tels procédés (mandat d'amener, arrestation, menottage, fouilles intimes, interdiction de joindre l'avocat du journal) dans le cadre d'une affaire aussi banale : il ne s'agissait que d'une suspicion de délit de diffamation, le délit étant d'ailleurs directement imputable à un internaute anonyme et non à M de Filippis. La juge décidant elle-même des modalités de l'interpellation, pourquoi n'a-t-elle pas choisi de faire interpeller de Filippis au siège du journal qui l'emploie ? Certains suspects dans l'affaire Kerviel ont bien été interpellés à la Société Générale et non à leur domicile.

Le code de procédure pénale précise que la fouille au corps est une forme de perquisition, dont le but est de chercher des preuves. On se demande quelles étaient les preuves recherchées par les policiers qui ont examiné le postérieur de M. de Filippis. L'adresse email de l'internaute diffamatoire ? Un dossier secret sur Xavier Niel ?

Frédéric Lefebvre, porte-parole de l’UMP : « Le traitement subi par le responsable de Libération, arrêté dans le cadre d’une affaire de délit de presse non passible de prison, paraît surréaliste... la méthode utilisée dans une simple affaire de diffamation semble tellement disproportionnée qu’elle nous paraît devoir donner lieu à une enquête ».

Faute de quoi, il va falloir que l'on fasse attention à nos propos ici-même, sinon CB risque un jour de subir le même sort...

[Absolutely agree with you, Sébastien. It's not just France. Our lawyers have recently warned us (Times bloggers) that we are legally liable for everything on the blog, including all comments. The only difference with UK and USA is that libel is usually not a criminal offence there, while it is in France -- criminal in the sense pénal, not criminel! CB]

[dot king]

"If he did not respond to a summons, they could have simply visited his office and asked him to accompany them." CB

Yes, or got in touch with the paper's lawyers directly, which, so I heard De Philippis say on TV the other night, is the way things are usually done. Papers are always being sued for something or other and of course have their own specialised lawyers.

[dot king]

"He did not respond to THREE previous summons ! I am not a law specialist, but may be the behaviour of Mr. de Filippis is more or less "un outrage à magistrat"."

DANIEL STROHL

It has been said that no trace of the summons issues has been found. He said that he could understand it if he'd zapped one summons, but not three.
He had two body-searches - one at the commissariat, another in the "sourière" at the court. Surely the second one wasn't necessary if nothing had been found at the first?
The reason given was that there had been a change of duty rosters and he'd been handed over to the Gendarmes. The Gendarmes, who also thought a second search unnecessary, contacted the judge for instructions, and she said that if he refused to be searched a second time, he could remain locked up.
This whole affair is an exercise in humiliation - overkill in the circumstances - even Mr Sarkozy thinks so - at least he said that - AFTER his Justice and Interior ministers both stated that it was normal procedure.
The whole point is that it is normal procedure - there may be cases where it is warranted, this was not one of them.
The police told him he was worse than scum "pire que la racaille" - they don't have the right to insult him any more than he has to insult them. Surely?
The judge was also acting on the request of someone who has already sued the paper unsuccessfully at least twice, and this someone has himself had brushes with the law. She should have exercised a little more - erm well - judgement - before allowing this to happen.

[dot king]

"The only difference with UK and USA is that libel is usually not a criminal offence there, while it is in France -- criminal in the sense pénal, not criminel!"

CB]

I believe I heard Mr Sarkozy say the other evening that the status of libel should be changed, ie decriminalised.

Valentin said:

"Nothing to do with police brutality. This is just to shatter Terry's dearest hopes once and for all :

http://www.20minutes.fr/article/278614/People-Melissa-a-accouche.php"

Noooooooooooooo. First, dati, now this. Es tu, Melissa?

This guy is dirty. He needs a bath. (charles is going to go down for one of my comments one day). Im am prettier than him. C'est la guerre.

Im out of my league with my beautiful wife anyway. She permits me my fantasies as long as I take out the garbage.

[Daniel Strohl]

DOT, SEBASTIEN

May be I am wrong. If Mr. de Filippis didn't receive any previous summons, then the procedure used by the judge and the police is not admissible. But we will probably never know the "truth".

"Vous-même faites preuve d'un calme et d'un savoir-vivre exemplaires" (SEBASTIEN)

Merci :). Bien sûr, mon calme a aussi des limites, que je marque par une bordée de 380 au ras de l'étrave (expression empruntée à un de mes amis de la marine) quand les limites risquent d'être dépassées. C'est déjà arrivé et en général, cela a suffi pour ne pas avoir eu à utiliser le sabre d'abordage ou la torpille à tête chercheuse :)!

Mais je n'ai pas changé d'avis concernant la manière dont Mr. de Filippis a réagi : il aurait dû réserver son ire à la juge, et non la passer sur des exécutants.

PS : DOT, 380 (mm) est le calibre des très gros canons de marine utilisés sur les cuirassés.

[Pierre]

Daniel
The traditional label in the bistrots used to claim until the 90's
"Protection des mineurs et répression de l'ivresse publique".

[rocket]

This is a riot

Chris Rock on how not to get your ass kicked by the police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

[azloon]

re Terry's comments about melissa theuriau's husband

[This guy is dirty. He needs a bath ]

similar sentiment to what some interpreted as joe biden's (unconsicously racist) comments about obama, early in the campaign: "he's a nice, clean young man."

the implication was that obama wasn't typically 'black' in his 'ivy league' appearance and presentation.

so too, Terry, for Theuriau's husband of arab-african origin?

being this hottie's husband may be a 'dirty' job but someone's gotta do it.

(married american lawyers with newborns need not apply)

:)

[terry]

Azloon tiredly said:

"similar sentiment to what some interpreted as joe biden's (unconsicously racist) comments about obama, early in the campaign: "he's a nice, clean young man."

Oh, I see so...if I say he's dirty Im an over racist. If I said he's clean, then Im a subtle one. How about we just leave it at what i said. I could care less about his ancestry. He's dirty. His hair looks greasy and unwashed. He's unshaven. And he has MY woman.

You lefties, Azloon, just love using your racist stick. Unfortunately, it's usually lefties who are always pointing out people's color and race.

I remind you that I have expressed my undying love here for Rachida Dati, who happens to be Moroccan. You thought she was ugly if memory serves. Who is calling the kettle black? Pun intended.

Stay off the peyote, Azloon.

[azloon]

you don't get both of 'em.

dati or theuriau, which one is it?

[dot king]

"PS : DOT, 380 (mm) est le calibre des très gros canons de marine utilisés sur les cuirassés."

DANIEL

Thank you - I was wondering.

I have a story, it happened last week, and it puts a perspective on police (in this case gendarmerie) procedures - even though I still believe the police were OTT in the case of De Filippis - and the Marciac perquistion.

I was requisitioned for some translation/interpretation work for a gendarmerie, told on the phone that it was taking witness statements and possibly a search of premises after.
It was only when I got to the Gendarmerie that I was filled in on what was really going to happen.
Two witnesses to be heard who were considered to be in danger from members of their own family, the danger coming from two young men constantly drunk and défoncés, with psychiatric problems, unpredictable, potentially very violent, and with an untrained, badly-treated large dog thrown in for good measure.
The purpose of the search was to get these two out, using their small stash of drugs as a pretext.
As the story unfolded, I began to wish I'd said I was busy that day and not accepted the mission . . .

The first statement took nearly 4 hours to take and the second another two following straight on. Then it was time to go to the search.

I was informed that every measure would be taken for my security, which is at the same time reassuring and pretty damn scary.
They would be going in "nombreux" including two dog-handlers to control the dog, padded camouflage gear, the lot.
I didn't count, but in addition, there were 3 women officers and at least twice that many men - and me.
I was told to remain in the car until they'd got the disturbed individuals out of the house and the dog chained up, then they came and got me.
They had a dog searching out drugs (the same dog as mentioned in a link I posted earlier, I was surprised to learn). It found the drugs quickly, but it also found a very serious firearm - or rather its drugs-search unearthed one.

When called forward with the owner of the premises to witness and translate, I suddenly became aware of the potential time bomb that had been ticking away there and that this was as close as I ever wanted to get to this kind of danger.
I was the only one there who wasn't wearing a bullet-proof vest and carrying a gun, or even so much as a handbag as protection.
I felt very vulnerable indeed in spite of everything and it took me quite a few days to digest the whole experience.

There have to be procedures and they have to be followed - thank goodness no-one tried to play hero in those circumstances.

Back at the gendarmerie, all the evidence collected had to be put sous scellés, labelled, and I had to wait until all this was done and sign the labels as well as the procès-verbaux.

It was a 13 and a half-hour day - one long stretch without a break. Very intensive - and wearing.

[dot king]

"PS : DOT, 380 (mm) est le calibre des très gros canons de marine utilisés sur les cuirassés."

DANIEL

Thank you - I was wondering.

I have a story, it happened last week, and it puts a perspective on police (in this case gendarmerie) procedures - even though I still believe the police were OTT in the case of De Filippis - and the Marciac perquistion.

I was requisitioned for some translation/interpretation work for a gendarmerie, told on the phone that it was taking witness statements and possibly a search of premises after.
It was only when I got to the Gendarmerie that I was filled in on what was really going to happen.
Two witnesses to be heard who were considered to be in danger from members of their own family, the danger coming from two young men constantly drunk and défoncés, with psychiatric problems, unpredictable, potentially very violent, and with an untrained, badly-treated large dog thrown in for good measure.
The purpose of the search was to get these two out, using their small stash of drugs as a pretext.
As the story unfolded, I began to wish I'd said I was busy that day and not accepted the mission . . .

The first statement took nearly 4 hours to take and the second another two following straight on. Then it was time to go to the search.

I was informed that every measure would be taken for my security, which is at the same time reassuring and pretty damn scary.
They would be going in "nombreux" including two dog-handlers to control the dog, padded camouflage gear, the lot.
I didn't count, but in addition, there were 3 women officers and at least twice that many men - and me.
I was told to remain in the car until they'd got the disturbed individuals out of the house and the dog chained up, then they came and got me.
They had a dog searching out drugs (the same dog as mentioned in a link I posted earlier, I was surprised to learn). It found the drugs quickly, but it also found a very serious firearm - or rather its drugs-search unearthed one.

When called forward with the owner of the premises to witness and translate, I suddenly became aware of the potential time bomb that had been ticking away there and that this was as close as I ever wanted to get to this kind of danger.
I was the only one there who wasn't wearing a bullet-proof vest and carrying a gun, or even so much as a handbag as protection.
I felt very vulnerable indeed in spite of everything and it took me quite a few days to digest the whole experience.

There have to be procedures and they have to be followed - thank goodness no-one tried to play hero in those circumstances.

Back at the gendarmerie, all the evidence collected had to be put sous scellés, labelled, and I had to wait until all this was done and sign the labels as well as the procès-verbaux.

It was a 13 and a half-hour day - one long stretch without a break. Very intensive - and wearing.

[dot king]

you don't get both of 'em.

dati or theuriau, which one is it?

AZLOON

If Terry has either or both, that will make him a new father three times over in a short space of time. What with all the gooey baby-doting, he'd feel left out :)

[Daniel Strohl]

DOT,

"one long stretch without a break"

Not even for a sandwich ? I would sue the people for "cruauté mentale" :)

More seriously, Dot : chapeau !

[Romain]

Dot,

Maybe you should consider buying a bullet-proof handbag for Xmas...

[dot king]

DANIEL, ROMAIN:

I arrived at the Gendarmerie at 9am having left my home at 8am, having breakfasted at 7h30. It was 13h10 when the first statement was signed and witnessed - after that I lost track of time with any precision, but there was no lunch-break and though an officer tried to phone out to get me a slice of pizza or a sandwich, they couldn't find anywhere open.
I know it went dark while the search was going on (it was pouring with rain too for the outbuildings and a caravan and very muddy underfoot).
While I was waiting for the scellés and procès verbaux, an officer said "Vous devez avoir faim" and I replied, "Oui, ça va faire bientôt 12 heures depuis mon petit-déj." Whereupon that officer phoned his wife and had her make me a chicken and tomatoe sandwich, with which she sent some biscuits an apple and a piece of chocolate, but that was around 19h30.
I'd had a couple of glasses of water and a disgusting half-cup of tepid coffee (unable even to finish it) otherwise . . .
It has to be said though that the general conditions were a bit of a coupe-appétit. I didn't see the gendarme I was working with eat anything either and I was with her all the time.

On a previous requisition a couple of weeks before that, it was an international fraud investigation and there were two detectives from another European country. That day, between interrogations, we took a proper lunch-break and went to an excellent restaurant - I think they must have wanted to give the "guests" a good experience of a French-based investigation.
BTW - everyone paid for their own lunch - it can be claimed on expenses, but what I can claim for a meal is only half of what it cost. That is not a complaint - it was an excellent repast - with a daube de sanglier "c'est la saison".

Sometimes I can understand why some translators aren't willing to do anything other than home-based work, but I find it interesting to get the first-hand experience, so always try to be available - though this last time was scary as well.

Azloon said:

"you don't get both of 'em.

dati or theuriau, which one is it?"

Who says I don't? This is my fantasy, Azloon.

Besides, more than one lover is quite French, n'est pas? When in Paris....

PS to Dot: I hate gaga goo gooing babies. Until I had one. I might be able to manage the three babies if i could work out something with the feeding schedules.

[Daniel Strohl]

DOT,

La morale de tout ceci : il ne faut jamais embarquer sans biscuits, comme on dit dans la marine :).

[Romain]

Dot, Daniel,

"C'est nous les gars de la marine,quand on est dans les cols bleus on a jamais froid aux yeux."

Wow, you sure have an exciting life ! I envy you. The one time I called the gendarmes, it was to find the wheabouts of the next of kin of aircrash victims, from half erased and mispelled surnames, I got the result within seconds. It was a smalltown in the Cevennes.

[dot king]

DANIEL, ROMAIN

Next time I shall go prepared - ship's biscuits and a handbag blindé! (I've sent an e-mail to Père Noël.)

[Daniel Strohl]

DOT, ROMAIN

A propos handbag blindé :

I always wondered what a famous lady Prime Minister of the UK was carrying in her enormous handbag (blindé ?). My guess : a few biscuits, a small flask of whisky and a six-shooter Texas
style :)

[dot king]

DANIEL - for you, you old romantic . . .

http://www.fredsakademiet.dk/ordbog/_gifs/gone_with_the_wind.png