Less culture for French cops

Here's some good news for anyone applying to be a Gardien de la Paix -- an ordinary French police officer. You will no longer be expected to know the imperfect subjunctive or name the author of les Fleurs du Mal. And if you are aiming to be a Garde Champêtre -- park warden -- you can forget about defining the Jurassic era.

On the orders of President Sarkozy, France's vast civil service is greatly lightening the tests of general knowledge that are compulsory for entrants to all its branches. New tests and interview methods are to replace the old-style "concours de culture générale".

Sarkozy is no doubt right when he says that the competitive tests discriminate against poorer applicants and those from immigrant backgrounds. The critics of course see the new Charter Against Discrimination in the Civil Service as another act of dumbing down by a President who has had a bee in his bonnet over culture for years.

One of his set-pieces as candidate was to mock a question from a civil service promotion test that asked clerical workers who wrote La Princesse de Clèves, a 17th century novel. Sarkozy's secretary at the time had failed the test. "I don't know if you have often had to ask the woman at the reception desk what she thinks of the Princesse de Clèves," Sarkozy joked in 2006.

The competitive culture quizzes have long been a rite of passage into the haven of a lifetime job in the police, ministries, post office and other branches of  a fonction publique that employs over 20 percent of all workers. With vastly over-subscribed demand, the 3,000 different tests have been used to whittle down the candidates.

Last year, 65,000 people, many with university degrees, sat the test for 1,000 posts as junior clerks. The goal is the lifetime guarantee that comes with being a servant of the state, however humble. I have a friend, a double bass player with a music degree, who is thrilled to have scored a post as a uniformed maintenance man at the Senate. He spends his day changing the lightbulbs but says he values the short hours and great retirement benefits waiting for him in about 25 years time. 

As a sample of questions, candidates for fonctionnaire catégorie C, the lowest level, at the Finance Ministry, were this year asked which divinity was not Egyptian: Anubis, Isis, Hathor or Thor?

They were also expected to know whether "the artiste Arthur H (a pop singer) is the brother of M (another pop singer), the son of Jacques Higelin (an older pop singer), the son of Françoise Hardy or the grandson of Jimi Hendrix" (He's Higelin's son).

André Santini, the Civil Service Minister, sounded off against the general knowledge tests in le Figaro. "What is the point of a history examination for firemen or police constables with university degrees? We have reached the limit of sterile elitism," he said. Santini, who does not hail from the caste of hauts fonctionnaires, said the general knowledge tests were "being used as a form of invisible discrimination". (On the police, France recruits a superior officer class with university degrees and much tougher entrance tests)   

He added: "The applicants are being asked questions that are too academic and ridiculously difficult and which indicate nothing about their real aptitude for filling a post." From now on, questions would be aimed at testing common sense and aptitude for the job, he said.

Here are recent questions from a recent Culture Générale entrance test for Gardiens de la Paix. Candidates have to hold the baccalauréat high-school leaving certificate.

Into which sea does the Danube flow ? Aral, Azov, Caspian or Black. (Black)

Who sculpted the Statue of Liberty ? Maillol, Buren, Rodin, Bartoli (Bartholdi)

Which country does not have a frontier with Iraq? Syria, Turkey, Iran, Egypt (Egypt)

In what year was Israel founded 1940, 48, 58, 61 ? (48)

Harpagon is a character from a play by Corneille, Racine, Molière, Beaumarchais ? (Molière)

Inevitably, the reform is being seen as another step away from the educational rigour upon which France used to pride itself. Ivan Rioufol, who is news editor at le Figaro and an author, tore into Sarkozy on his blog for dumbing down France.

A basic knowledge of history and the culture is vital for civil servants to be capable of civilised communication, he said. "It's appalling to see the government trying to accelerate this mutation into a world with no differentiation."

____________

PS: Charles Baudelaire wrote les Fleurs du Mal, a collection of poems. La Princesse de Clèves, regarded as the first French novel, by Marie-Madeleine de La Fayette, was published anonymously in 1678

Comments

[Francois D]

I do not often agree with Figaro editorial guidance, but his columnist has reason to be worried about future candidates's level.
I think a minimum of general education is essential for peoples who, in uniform, represent their country. On the other hand a minimum of general culture should me hope for the ability to understand a minimum of ethics. Is the conditional well translated?...
Remember that phrase inscribed on the walls of the Sorbonne in 68: "When I hear the word "culture", I take out my gun."

You're right to refer to NS's culture.
It is very difficult to understand this expression, probably typically English:

"Discrimination in the Civil Service as another act of dumbing down by a President who has had a bee in his bonnet over culture for years".

We should say instead that: "a pea under his hat". But you may be right, a bee better reflects a permanent agitation than a pea.

[Fernandez]

"On the police, France recruits a superior officer class with university degrees and much tougher entrance tests" CB

Methinks a certain journalist is worried about early morning arrests and intimate body searches after his last two blogs!

[Natasha]

If this level of culture and education gets you a French police officer, give me dumbed down any day. Being a cultural snob doesn't make you intelligent or morally decent, as anyone who lives in France will tell you. Funnily enough it doesn't make you especially well-educated either, as anyone unfortunate enough to have children in
the college and lycee system here knows too.

Just another example of the French state's absurd resistance to change. How long did it take them to drop 'nous les Gaulois' from the history curriculum?

[susan durst]

Yes, it's time to update the Concours. But before the experts get down to work, may I suggest good manners and a basic training in customer service as pre-requisites for the job ? Every public sector employee in France is told from Day 1 that they are there to serve the State (fonctionnaire d'Etat), not the citizen. From this point of view, I prefer the philosophy behind the English term "civil service", which at least pre-supposes a different mindset ...

Aside from the Concours, the key issue is why such a high proportion of the French, including the young / bright / educated ones, look on being a fonctionnaire as some kind of Holy Grail ? Barely out of college, all they seem to aspire to is short working hours, long holidays, job security and pensions. Whatever happened to drive, ambition, hard work and success ? There are many exceptions to this rule of course, but they tend to be making a bundle outside of France !

I read recently that Switzerland has scrapped guaranteed lifetime employment for civil servants. Maybe something similar could be implemented in France ? (Oops sorry, I have to end this post now, the firing squad is already beating down my door !)

[valerie]

These questions don't sound all that much more difficult than high school level, do they?

That said, I never quite understood why these tests didn't concentrate more on finding out if the candidate could understand and use the French language with ease and if they had a basic understanding of French law and institutions.

[textibule]

I have always found it thrillingly sophisticated to be stopped on the road in France, be breathalyzed, and then, as the gendarme writes out my 200€ violation and takes away my car keys, engages me in seriously cultured conversation on the relative merits of reds from the Côte Chalonnaise vs. the Côte de Beaune.

It would be a shame if France lost this kind of noble community interaction.

[laure]

ah mon dieu c'est vrai que ce concours est élitiste , je ne savais même pas qui avait écrit la princesse de Clèves alors que je l'ai lu.
Mais la France c'est la France , ce n'est ni l'Angleterre ni aucun autre pays alors j'aimerai bien que certain "commentateurs" se rentrent ça dans la tête une bonne fois pour toute.

[Valentin]

Just a silly question. How is knowing that Harpagon is a character from a play by Molière, less intelligent that knowing that Baudelaire wrote Les Fleurs du Mal - or that Mme de La Fayette wrote the princess of Clèves? :O

(exams like the baccalauréat should test general culture; an admission test to a profession should test qualities needed for that profession; are nurse candidates asked about who wrote the Cid? is that what you would expect from a nurse?)

[Mauvezin]

>> Francois D
"...Remember that phrase inscribed on the walls of the Sorbonne in 68: "When I hear the word "culture", I take out my gun."...
********************************
http://tatoufaux.com/spip.php?article398

[It was a quote attributed to Herman Goering but originally from a German play apparently.... CB]

[Pauline M]

The main reason why I decided not to go back to France at the end of my year out, preferring to stay in the UK and be employed on the basis of my ability to do the job! I never did read the Princesse de Cleves, nor do I care, quite frankly. That's how you end up with a middle management full of themselves, secure in the knowledge that they'll never be sacked even though they're incapable of doing the work. I've heard enough horror stories to put me off ever going back.

[Mauvezin]

>>Valentin
"...are nurse candidates asked about who wrote the Cid? is that what you would expect from a nurse?)"
************************
Absolutely
- ô rage ! ô désespoir ! ô vieillesse ennemie...
is perfectly appropriate for a nurse near an elderly dying person.

[azloon]

The officiousness and indifference of the french civil service was, at one time, years ago, breathtaking and infuriating. i remember standing in a line at a post office for an hour while the clerk stamped each piece of paper six times, taking about ten seconds between each stamping action. it occurred to me then that if there were as many guns in france as in the u.s, the expression 'going postal' might have originated there and not here. i think someone here said awhile back that things have improved since that time, and i hope so.

how closely do entrance exams correlate to job performance, thus affecting inefficiency and indifference? probably not very much but you need some system of rating applicants.

so make it fair, and if 'minority' applicants are at a disadvantage, provide 'prep courses' for non-acculturated aspirants.

re the police

their performance is about their training post-selection, not the selection process itself. their suitability may require special screening not applied to clerks.

France may want to 'tweak' its system, update it with more practical questions/applications. but it does have a useful purpose -- separation of the motivated (if you can say people wanting a sinecure are motivated) from the casually interested.

the u.s. has it's same class of people who want the security of government civil service. i worked in that system for awhile and know it well. when my wife would worry that i might be fired because i was feuding bitterly with my boss, i would tell her i'd have to shoot him in the head to get fired, and then i'd probably only be suspended with pay.

it sounds like France has more of these people per capita than we do, but they're the same sort of person over there as here.

------

historical note:

the chinese imperial civil service exam* was central to civil order and a responsible citizenry over a period of many centuries. it worked.

* Chinese Imperial Exam

By 115, a set curriculum had become established for the so-called First Generation of examination takers. They were tested on their proficiency in the "Six Arts":

Scholastic arts: music, arithmetic, writing, and knowledge of the rituals and ceremonies in both public and private life.

Militaristic: archery and horsemanship The curriculum was then expanded to cover the "Five Studies": military strategy, civil law, revenue and taxation, agriculture and geography, and the Confucian classics.

In this form the examinations were institutionalized during the sixth century CE, under the Sui Dynasty. These examinations are regarded by most historians as the first standardized tests

[Daniel Strohl]

"Who sculpted the Statue of Liberty ? Maillol, Buren, Rodin, Bartoli (Bartoli)"

It was not BARTOLI, but BARTHOLDI (1834 - 1904). Bartholdi was born in Colmar, where we live.

As a strange coincidence, we had for lunch today a friend, whose husband was my best friend (he passed away four years ago). His grand parents lived for a few years in the twenties in the house where Bartholdi was born. This house is now a museum (30, rue des Marchands Colmar).

PS : the "fonctionnaire" who designed the "Bartoli" question should be fired for "inculture" :). However, if it was CHARLES who made a lapsus when he copied the question, he shall be
pardoned :). In fact, we need him ... But we would be able to do without some high level and high-browed "fonctionnaires" ...

More seriously, many of the above questions are "à côté de la plaque". They probably have been designed in order to show the "culture" of the designers - see above :)

FRANCOIS D,

"a pea under his hat"

If Sarkozy has a pea under his hat :), his political opponents have brilliantly demonstrated up to now that they do have not much more than a flea under their hat ...

AZLOON,

" i would tell her i'd have to shoot him in the head to get fired, and then i'd probably only be suspended with pay"

It is the same here, if not worse :)

[oops. I've corrected. I cut and pasted and the spelling was wrong in the original ministry version! CB]

[susan durst]

PAULINE M : Re my previous post, you're the proof of the pudding ... Bonne chance en Angleterre !

[Blendi]

Great subject. Who would have thought that cops in France would go through such hoops. No wonder they are so angry. But what about other coppers that do not have such stringent tests. i.e Korean cops? They are so kind and considerate (some say).

It is as preposterous as it can be, no one expect a civil servant to be an ace at general knowledge- although it would be nice. I –somehow- think that the ampler/ wide the life/knowledge and passions of someone are, the ‘harder’ it will be for them to mess up – help destroy someones’ life. There are exceptions though.
----------
London life
______
Yesterday on my car’s radio. Heard this gem (idiotic, but nevertheless a gem)
A movie Called Vera Drake was being discussed ( I never seen it, nor do I know the actress who played it)

The interviewer:

Forgive me for asking this, I do not want to sound racist…but…hmm…does being Irish help with roles in movies…as irish have a poetic affinity, they are like POETS…and what do you think about that?

Now, now now. I think that either people are getting thicker or it correctness gone mad.. It was on LBC, time was 15 : 43.
________.

5 minutes later saw something that I never, seen before!!! Nor heard about.

On my left side, was a girl on a bike, with a woolly hat, gloves and ear-plugs. ( it was an mp3 player lol)
And she had a phone on her hand. I though she was calling someone, but not. Nothing ‘wrong’ with bikers using a mobile phone, it has become a common sight.

But my girl’ was texting furiously. Not really seeing where she was going she began to drift in front of my car. I slowed down gradually (could have use the horn- but didn’t have the heart to /startle stop her- she was so focused, that it felt cruel) and gave her some cover.

It was a bit mean though, later I wanted to let her drift in front of oncoming traffic, lol, and let the others do the dirty work.
When she was totally on my right I opened the window, waved at her smilingly and with signs asked her what time it was. ( she was texting with the right hand, if she moved the left hand also the bike would have been handless lol) she realised how much she drifted and went left. Smiled a little, and continued texting. What do I know, maybe she was on familiar road, or a resident and knew her way with eyes closed, i.e texting. Brilliant.
I wish that cars of the future came with scoops or a kind of automatic - plastic arm to hit idiots like this over the head, only to remind them that texting and driving/ cycling in the road are a no no.
---
Today, I think it may rain, but it may not.
___
next time I am in Fr. and stoped by the gendarmes I am gonna ask them about Honore de B. and if they fail to reply, I am gonna complain. In writing.

[John Gregory Flinn]

One might venture the opinion that Sarkozy wants to 'shape' France in a similar way that the USA was shaped by its immigrants.
'Modernized' might be the intention rather than 'dumbing-down', although it seems inevitable that the applicants who are going to benefit from less culturally onerous tests might give this impression.

If I've read it correctly, Ivan Rioufol's criticism extends further to include the dogmatism infecting democracy today.

SUSAN DURST - Japan also scrapped guaranteed lifetime employment after its property crash a few years ago.
If this 'recession' deepens it may happen here (and elswhere) too.

[azloon]

"a pea under his hat" in english might suggest a 'pea brain' (assuming his brain is in his skull and not the 'other' male 'thinker'), and as we know from his wife, NS has five brains, so he might better be described as a 'peas brain,' or alternatively, 'pea brains.' if we are talking about the other brain, we might refer to him as a 'pee brain.'

as you might guess, pea brain is not a compliment. pee brain isn't much better, tho it is anatomically correct, at least the pee part.

"pees porridge hot, pees porridge cold, pees porridge in the pot, nine days old."

ok, more than enuf. i am threatening to run amok.

[azloon]

Blendi

re PC comments about irish and poetry

only a brit would (and perhaps should) preface his remarks about ireland, and irish poetic talent, with a mention of racism.

for hundreds of years, the british treated the irish as an inferior people (race?) and were only slightly less brutal towards them than slave owners.

we irish became more poetic for some of the same reasons that slaves in the u.s. became the creative musical geniuses they did, out of cruelty and abuse.

ok, i am entering my foxhole. :)

[Daniel Strohl]

"the spelling was wrong in the original ministry version! CB]

I am not surprised :).

[Pierre Bernardi]

... n'ai je donc tant vécu que pour cette infâmie?

Mind you, you learn that in school. If that's sorted out, there shouldn't be a problem later. I've had a teacher who took off 4 points per spelling mistake (out of 20) in dictation (I don't think English schools ever had these) and another much later who wouldn't correct essays after three or four mistakes - just give them a one, or a half. This was in the prépa system, which Europe would like to take away from us, because other people don't understand it. Like other people don't understand the point of a Hermès scarf, perhaps, or trains that go at 360km/h, or energy systems which reduce dependency on Arabs, or drinks which taste better with chicken than coke, or why anyone would want to fill a building as big as the Louvre with paintings and sculptures, or why anyone would want to paint, write or sculpt in the first place...

Well said Laure!

[Pierre]

NATASHA
"How long did it take them to drop 'nous les Gaulois' from the history curriculum? "

It's never been "nous les Gaulois" but "nos ancêtres les Gaulois". (About 1920 years separate the death of Vercingétorix and the beginning of the Third Republic during wich this national myth was popularized).

AZLOON
From "how closely do entrance " to "not applied to clerks."

Clap Clap Clap ( = Tout à fait d'accord).
Now of course I disagree with the assumption than all or most civil servants have or want a "sinecure". (Not with the fact that there are still too many who do).

"We irish became more poetic for the same reason that slaves in the u.s. became the creative musical geniuses they did, out of cruelty and abuse......"

That's why maybe the Irish have been musically labelled as the Blacks of Europe. On that account they could also be the western gypsies (of course there are also Irish tsiganes).

[Edward Johns]

We Brits satisfy our urges to show off our knowledge of obscure and arcane trivia with Quiz- nights. Maybe France should try them out.

[Pierre Bernardi]

"What has France ever done for the world?" I asked my wife.
"Je t'emmerde toi! Tu veux un fromage dans la gueule?" we were eating a Mont d'Or at the time.

A little later:
"J'en ai marre d'entendre des conneries."
Her: "Tais-toi, t'en entendras moins."

We love each other.

[Natasha]

Absolutely Pierre. It's demonstrably true that only the French have big museums filled with paintings and sculpture, and of course only France has large numbers of people creating art, music and literature nowadays. Not a single university in the US or England can compare with the Ecole Normale Superieur or any of the other marvellous institutions contributing to world knowledge in the science and arts that we find in France.

I will give you the Hermes scarf point though. It's true that noone else can see the point of that.

[Terry]

"Last year, 65,000 people, many with university degrees, sat the test for 1,000 posts as junior clerks."

Of course, the only thing more worthless than lawyers are clerks. This is, perhaps, the saddest part of Charles' blog. That 65K people (with degrees) aspire to do nothing more than file forms for the rest of their life on the public nipple (can I say nipple here?) Oh no, Pierre, Ive done it again. I ruined the focus of Charles' entire blog. How clumsy of me.

[Blendi Progri]

Azloon come out of da foxhole and tell us more, lol.

We live in a strange world. Telling someone that 'your people' are poetic/ with a poetic vein, it shouldn't be prefaced with an excuse me I don't want to sound racist.

Since when, praising someone does sound racist in the slightest? Are these folks mad, or as you say people feel self-conscious of the times past and we 'the outsiders' dont get it.

I must ad though, that I never heard something as strange as this previously.

----
BTW -if you care to, send LBC ( london radio station) an angry e-mail:

I am a listener from Arizona, don't know why/how your broadcasting signal reached me here BUT:
I heard that on WED / 03 DEC. 15:43 LBC mentioned that IRISH are Poetic, with a straight face (voice) as a descendant of poets, I am appalled.

It is as racist as it gets!
(here you insert the tale of a dyslexic uncle who hated poetry and couldnt rhyme for guiness :)

In these PC times, who knows (and god says a thicko like that deserves it!) a leter from a fan of LBC from USA may produce the desired results: Get the Presenter Sacked. :)
________/

I am minded to send an e-mail myself, despite being a non-irish, if only to keep the airwaves clear from rubish of this kind.

[malik]

mais non natasha la France n'est pas le seul pays à laisser une place importante à la culture , au contraire et c'est très bien! le problème c'est que certains essaient sans cesse de vouloir changer les habitudes des français parcequ'ils ne les comprennent pas ou les jugent stupides. Moi je réponds que les français sont assez grands pour savoir ce qu'ils font et qu'ils n'ont pas non plus à devenir comme les anglais ou les américains, chaque peuple a ses spécificité, pourquoi ça semble si difficile à comprendre !

[christopher muir]

The incredibly long-running German TV series “Derrick” showed the advantages of having an educated detective assigned to solve complex crimes. Rarely resorting to physical force, Detective Chief Inspector Stephan Derrick would engage suspects in wide-ranging conversations which sometimes involved literature and painting. He was at ease attending a private string quartet recital while watching a beautiful female suspect wearing a stolen necklace. He occasionally arrested criminals in a discreet and courteous manner. I think that Derrick’s style very much represents bygone days.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

The point of the Hermes scarf? Surely someone at design school had read the description of Raskolnikov's crone's neck in Crime et Chatiment and a thought had occurred...

[Peter Athey]

I posted the following link a couple of weeks ago, on another of CB's articles:

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12381775&CFID=30783180&CFTOKEN=86188237.

However, having this very minute read this appalling analysis of another culture - namely, the place where I was born, but which I thankfully (to go by the conclusions of the writer) left over 40 years ago -

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_4_otbie-british_character.html

I would beg any French administration not to be short-sighted, and dumb down French society just to appease certain Politically Correct pressure groups.

[Romain]

"Santini, who does not hail from the caste of hauts fonctionnaires"
CB,

Santini being Corsican, he is indeed by nature and by nurture, de jure and de facto, a purebred fonctionnaire. lol

Azloon
You must have seen the movie "the commitments" where the band manager quotes James Brown's "I'll say it once, i'll say it loud, I'm black and I'm proud".

[Natasha]

Malik, of course. I was merely responding to Pierre's stupendous pomposity.

Vous dites "certains essaient sans cesse de vouloir changer les habitudes des français parcequ'ils ne les comprennent pas ou les jugent stupides." Qui sont ces "certains"? Charles is talking about the French wanting to change certain aspects of France, to take account of a changing world, which certainly includes France. France has changed, its demographic has changed, and yet in some ways it remains 'sclerosee'. Going on about a concours in high culture to enter the police force whilst refusing to recognise that that very police force is feared by the very citizens it is there to protect puts one in mind of high ranking Nazi officers who revered Beethoven. I am NOT in any way suggesting that the French flics are Nazis, merely that an appreciation of high culture is no indication of the kind of human qualities which make a good law enforcer. What is wrong with challenging the status quo in a context like that?

[malik]

Natasha
Qui sont ces "certains"?
Ces certains sont des étrangers souvent anglophones qui prennent un ton condescendant avec la France .( Je ne parle pas de m. Bremner. )
Et c'est ça qui m'enerve le plus!

"Charles is talking about the French wanting to change certain aspects of France, to take account of a changing world, which certainly includes France. France has changed, its demographic has changed, and yet in some ways it remains 'sclerosee'"
Bien sûr que oui la France change, et les français aussi changent! On a bien conscience des réalités du monde, on est pas si con!
Là n'est pas le problème! Le problème c'est que certaines personnes essaient d'imposer un modèle qui est le leur mais qui n'est pas le nôtre!
Comme je l'ai dis plus haut nous ne sommes ni anglais ni americains, nous sommes français et le seul modèle que nous voulons c'est un modèle français qui nous est adapté, à notre peuple, notre Histoire, pas un modèle d'un pays étranger.
Bien sûr que la France doit changer mais elle doit changer à sa manière.

Quant au problème des flics, je suis personnellement bien plaçé pour savoir que ce ne sont pas des rigolos. Mais il ne faut pas tous les mettre dans le même panier.
Quant à ce concours de culture général, je le trouve stupide.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

In keeping with the theme of this thread: policemen and Irish poets etc., may I recount an occasion when a policeman knocked on the door of a Dublin poet. He gave him a verbal warning that his verses had been construed in certain quarters (possibly his senior officers) as bordering on the obscene, and hinted that if he continued in the same vein he risked being arrested.
Slumped, head in hands, in his living room, the poet's wife said: "What's wrong with you? What did the Garda want?"
"I've wasted my life. Wasted...all of it. I've been on the wrong track. I am on the wrong track. If a p o l i c e m a n can understand it...."

[Hope]

I asked my local policier municipale who helps us to cross the road and dazzles us with his knowledge of ... football, at what age kids could sit in the passenger seat. He didn't know but said he would find out for me (he never did!) Perhaps the municipale police don't do a concours?

[azloon]

BLENDI

my post about the 'racist' disclaimer by the british interviewer is to point out what happens when the former oppressor addresses the formerly oppressed (if i may exaggerate a bit).

it happened in the u.s. in the beginning of the civil rights movement (thru the rest of the century), and was fact was the very basis for the development of PC. when white americans spoke of black's talents as exceptional, it was interpreted as condescending, even if it was to praise their superior athletic ability or musical prowess/talent. since it was their 'exceptionalism,' being black, that characterized their enslavement, any mention of exception, even praise, was seen as objectionable. several prominent sports managers were even fired for suggesting that blacks possessed superior athletic ability (these same 'praisers' often believed blacks weren't smart enough to play certain positions on a sports team that required mental prowess).

so, though i was speaking somewhat tongue-in-cheek, it is not as preposterous as you seem to indicate. i welcome praise about irish poetic talent, story telling ability, verbal prowess (blarney?), whatever. but hearing it from a brit with no acknowledgement of barbaric british behavior toward the irish is not as pleasing.

as for the Irish being the blacks of europe, i welcome the comparison. black culture in the u.s., once derided as primitive and inferior, has now emerged as the culture of brilliant music, and other formerly hidden talents much admired by the younger generation. everyone wants to be black. and now a black will soon be our president. my prediction is that blacks will ultimately save us from our moral rot, being a class that has learned perspective from being oppressed and marginalized.

ROMAIN -- yes, The Commitments indeed. Black and Proud. :) you probably know that blacks considered bill clinton our first 'black president' and referred to him as such. his comfort with black culture, his musical talents, and is close friendships with blacks earned him this title. Aretha Franklin appeared more times at the White HOuse than any other american musical artist. anyone who would repeated invite aretha (greatest r&b artist ever) to the white house has got to be ok. and getting a blow job in the oval office didn't hurt that reputation. :)

[dot king]

"I will give you the Hermes scarf point though. It's true that noone else can see the point of that."

Posted by: Natasha |

I thought bourgeois ladies bought half a dozen or so to give to the servants for Christmas . . . :)

[Pierre Bernardi]

Or a grave accent, for that matter.

[Daniel Strohl]

PETER ATHEY,

Peter, thanks for your interesting links. The second article is really well written and if the author is as good a physician as he is a writer (I have this impression), his patients must be very happy with him !
He reminds me of my godfather, who was "médecin de campagne" and who was much appreciated by his patients.

MALIK,

"Quant à ce concours de culture général, je le trouve stupide"

Moi aussi ! Par ailleurs, je pense comme vous qu'il ne faut pas mettre tous les policiers dans le même sac. Bien sûr, il y a des brebis galeuses chez eux - il y en a dans toutes les professions.

Par ailleurs, ceux qui les décrient le plus sont souvent les premiers à les appeler quand ils entendent un bruit suspect dans leur grenier ! Bien sûr, je ne parle pas de certains jeunes des quartiers, mais de certains bobos toujours prêts à donner des leçons :).

[Fernandez]

Azloon -

Oye, your gross generalizations about 'blacks' (define, please. Obama's half-white and was raised by white people. He won the election, not because he was black, though there are plenty who voted for and against him simply because of that, but because he ran a great campaign) is the same patronizing display that you decry from the Brit DJ re: Irish. If we have to accept all Irish are 'poets' we'll have to accept that they are all 'drunks' too. There is no reason why positive stereotypes are true and negative ones are untrue.

"my prediction is that blacks will ultimately save us from our moral rot, being a class that has learned perspective from being oppressed and marginalized."

Anyone in particular? P Diddy? Thomas Sowell? OJ Simpson?

"you probably know that blacks considered bill clinton our first 'black president' and referred to him as such"

Uh, one black - Toni Morrison - in an article she wrote in the nineties. She recanted in February when Ole Bill was deemed a 'racist'. She described him as 'our first black President' not because of any musical ability nor because the Clinton Library hands out free watermelon on Bill's birthday every year (true), but because he came from a poor, broken home and was abandoned by his father. Google the article.

What pol wouldn't want Aretha at the White House? (Especially if a large portion of your voting block is African American.) The trouble with being a singer invited to the WH is that you usually have to sing for your meal. Would George Bush be the 2nd 'black' President? He appointed more blacks to high level positions than Bill. (Would there have been a President Obama had their not been a Secretary Powell or Secretary Rice? I don't know.) He also gave Aretha the Presidential Medal of Freedom, a visit that didn't require her to sing for the guests.

I think the people you are referring to aren't 'blacks' but Liberals.

[Fernandez]

Azloon -

"everyone wants to be black"

My commander (black, female, Lt. Col.) just remarked, 'Everyone wants to be black until the police arrive'.

Dear Daniel,

Voici un lien pour en savoir plus sur Theodore Dalrymple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Daniels_(psychiatrist)

Comme beaucoup d'Anglais qui se respectent de nos jours (càd: qui préfèrent la courtoisie et la politesse), il a choisi la France !!.

cordialement

Peter

[Blendi Progri]

Azloon

The way you explain it, it makes sense. Comparing it with blacks and past treatments is good enough for me and most, to understand why this way of thinking surfaces even today, at times. I found it odd and strange (and absurd, a lot) as living in UK I haven’t heard this before on Tv nor radio. With the exception of the standard stereotypes, I never heard that kind of praise coming with a disclaimer.

What shouldn’t be happing in my opinion is to camouflage every sentence with a pre-clause. Why should a brit (of today) be made to (or even auto censor himself) ‘apologise’ for things he hasn’t done. Isn’t that collective guilt, or do we need to engulf an entire people in constant state of vigilance and self-flagellation?!

For what?

There aren’t just the Irish and the blacks that have suffered, many other nationalities and races have; but if we go down the route of apologising once in two sentences then the conversation will sound false. This falsity bothers me more than the things that have gone and can’t be fixed. Now and forward should the focus be, not what great- grandpa Johnny did. If people are reminded often what they did and been taken for a pound of flesh every time they open their mouth, it will mean that they are never able to disassociate themselves from past deeds.

This deduction is a little dangerous when taking into account that our world is populated by many sinners (doesn’t germany, japan etc deserve a chance- while we are here) sometimes one needs to say Loud and Proud. I am a Brit, am an American and what has happened is in the past, NOW, lets look to the future and forget the past.

In my country too there is a ‘default’ setting ( as often is with the ‘small’ countries) wehre everything and everyone is blamed, romans/ottomans/serbs/italins/ the greeks/ the soviets…etc…for doing unspeakable things. Instead of saying listen, Now we do our own thing and let history be history.

That is where mythology starts. Every black man (maybe with 2 generations from Harvard,) or irishman (3 times removed from Ireland) feels ‘entitled’ to scream Racism. Why? It has become so ingrained that no one is immune from it.

On having a coffe with Serbian friend I felt myself a bit in difficulty, when two previous friends of mine came to the table to join us and asked her where was she from?

I knew they saw me as a betrayer (of what?) and later told me that it wasn’t a good idea. People are made to think in a static way. And the more static they are the more they judge you. Where the sense of perspective is lost, the ‘national –folklore-ism’ takes priority. Am not saying that dreadful things didn’t happen only that forgetting them –at least- in our everyday life, may be a great idea.

My main concern remains not just PC gone mad, but auto-censure. Coming from a regime where auto censure almost became a second nature in the name of self-reservation (and family…) I am very aware (and worried too) that this way of thinking is awful and highly contagious.

When does this stop?
How long is this meant to continue?
Who will be the ones that will give ‘ us’ the certificate of cleanliness that ‘we’ are good people, not racist etc…etc…etc…This slippery slope, no matter what we say, or profess will slip us into the dominance of one group ( continually showing wounds/ protesting about past treatments / pointing fingers at…) over another.
____________/

To illustrate I will mention a story about a Turkish movie, I seen long time ago.

Someone had borrowed money from a friend. And he left the country, or something. The lender now was asking for his money back from his brother that he met daily. Despite not being the person that had taken the money This brother accepted that one day he will repay what he could.

But the lender started to became increasingly vicious every time he saw him, he would ask for his money back to the point that the poor guy exploded one day:
What would it take for you to leave me alone? I didn’t take this money, it was my brother…leave me alone, what can I give you for this to stop!

- When you give me your arm, the lender said. Then I’ll leave you alone.

( I’m sure many will spot the analogy with a certain dramaturge, others will see it not only in him, as many countries- literature in a form or another ( tragedy/ comedy) treat this subject – past debt –imposed penance and extreme solutions!)

Cue some tragic music.
The guy goes home, takes his axe ties his arm as tightly as he could and then cuts his arm
( here was when my good ol Ma, cried) and throws it at the lender.
Macabre.
That is how things end up when conflicts are keep alive; in any form.
______________________.

Now that policemen and poets are exhausted as subjects, I think returning to the present crises may be long overdue. Even a policeman able to create rhyming stanzas can’t compete with the credit crunch. ;)
---.

Yesterday, I wondered again ( BTW- I wonder a lot!) seeing a programme about that explained few things bout banking.

Apparently the safest country in the world right now, to bank with, bank on or bank in…is…wait for it folks…
…..
……
…….
LEBANON.

Yep.
___.

The Guv. of Lebanon central bank had warned of the crisis ( he said) in 2007. what a marvellous chap. Central bank vaults were full of cash. Some facts.

The baking system was sound because some rules were followed:

- If a bank was in difficulties, was ‘persuaded’ to merge with another bank.
- Any bank in the country ( Central Bank 1-st) must have 30% of its assets in cash.
- Anyone applying for a mortgage should put down a deposit equivalent to the 30 % of house value. Also prove that his monthly salary was three times the monthly mortgage payment.

The Governor said the system has been tested through crisis, wars, assassinations etc and it worked.

All in all a great system, few folks praised it. Controlled, old fashioned banking and ….till they ruined it (it had to be ruined…) hmm.

Only the State wasn’t bound to these restriction- the journalist added. Basically the state had the hand in the till, borrowing here there and everywhere. The debt was so great, that if it was recalled everything would collapse and there was no hope of repaying it. Hmm (twice!)
But this is unlikely to happen, as its friends ( Lebanon’s) would bail it out, straightaway. (what a fun) the programme said.

When Israel invaded, S. Arabia and Kuwait deposited a lot of money and it saved the Leb. State Banking system.

What a nice bunch of friends.

What if the friends are in trouble themselves, I wanted to shout at the TV; what will happen to the ‘sound Lebanons Banking System.

Calling a system sound as it relies in friends to help it bail it out, isn’t that sound.

To conclude
_________.
Everything and everyone seems to be in debt, in the 3-rd planet from the sun.

So why worry? Get over exited and predict crisis and crashes – isn’t right, we are in this together…so lets continue singing : )
________________________

Folks, forgive me as I am in a hurry and cant stay for lon; but will be back on w/end to stay & chat some more : )

[rocket]

Azloon

"everyone wants to be black. and now a black will soon be our president. my prediction is that blacks will ultimately save us from our moral rot, being a class that has learned perspective from being oppressed and marginalized."

This is a joke isn't it?

[thinknoworpaylater]

PIERRE --- nos ancestres les gaulois -there wasnt a french nation (as the phrase implies) shared language ,say, till the 18=19th century. But the idea of purity was there Racism? S o the point still holds even if the phrase is not correct. Children were still being told this idea (a special pleading) that conveyed the idea and gave an ideology no less problematic than the idea of Germans and Germany which was a major factor in the 1930s there.

[azloon]

MF

yeah, 'driving while black' is still a 'moving violation' in some areas.

re your other points

well taken and oh so predictable. the two of us could be dueling commentators on 'crossfire.' :) *

interesting that you have a blood test for race. there would be far fewer african-americans if having any trace of white blood constituted a disqualification from that racial category (OJ Simpson, for one).

yeah, many of the great public irish poets and dramatist were drunks, i am sorry to say. ireland has the highest incidence of teen-age alcoholism in the eurozone, and the highest % of adult teetotalers. it's a stereotype that happens to fit. i know.

which blacks would save us? my statement wasn't meant to be taken literally rather a bit of hyperbole, for effect. but to name names, Sean Combs (aka p diddy) is a brilliant businessman, as is another rap mogul, russell simmons of def jam records, a truly educated and cultured person. yes, a tom sowell, and colin powell, and condi, and the presidents of american express, time warner, darden restaurants, and thousands of other brilliant and talented people who have african roots (but not with 100%, pure-african blood, uncontaminated by bodily fluids of white euro-americans).

re slick willy as first black president

tony morrison may have coined the expression but it came to be mentioned by many blacks. Clinton regularly attended black churches, played golf and 'chased pussy' with vernon jordan (jordan's admission), and regulary socialized with blacks. btw, if being poor from a broken home were enough to qualify for being included in the category of black, the majority of americans would fit the bill.

and Clinton had Aretha to the white house because he actually liked her music, not for an official ceremony, though i am glad bush did recognize her, to his credit, if it was his idea which i would question. Bush certainly is racially aware, and inclusive, which truly is also a nice thing i can think of to say about him. oh yeah, and he loves his family.

but obama owes his presidency, principally, to the gross ineptitude of republicans, and the king of ineptitude, GWB. we should all be grateful to Dubya for providing the wide opening for obama's brilliantly executed campaign. george lobbed him a watermelon, and he hit it out of the park (which really was quite racially insensitive on bush's part, don't 'cha think" :))

*(you're james j. kilpatrick and i'm nicholas von hoffman. :)

[Daniel Strohl]

HOPE,

"Perhaps the municipale police don't do a concours?"

LOL ! In a small town (5000 to 6000 inhabitants) where we lived for several years, they had two policiers municipaux always patrolling together (in the bistrots also, of course :). They were nicknamed Starsky & Hutch ...

Dear Peter,

Merci pour le lien concernant Theodore Dalrymple. Les Anglais tels que je les ai en mémoire correspondent à la description qu'il en fait dans la première partie de l'article du City-Journal. Apparemment, cela a changé - en France aussi (peut-être pas autant ?)

Nous regardons souvent sur TMC la série Hercule Poirot; tous les acteurs - entre autres David Suchet - sont excellents. Le doublage est également très bon. Les costumes et les old timers accompagnent bien les histoires, sans fausses notes. L'humour est toujours discret (comme il se doit :).

[Francois D]

André Santini,
the minister for public fonction, is carving a reputation at National Assembly for good words to both his opponents as his classmates: he is repeatedly elected by the press "Funniest MP".
In 1991, he created the Parliamentary Club Havana fans , where he is president for life. In this regard, he caused a scandal in 2003 declaring spending 1,000 euros per month for the purchase of its cigars.

Some Santini citations:

- You are intelligent, proof you are in business. We can not know anything, the evidence we are in politics.

- Barre (ex prime minister) is my bedroom fellow: he sleeps beside me at the Assembly.

- The difference between a cuckold and a MP is that the first is not obliged to attend the meeting.

- I think we did a little too much for François Mitterrand's funerals. I do not remember that we have done so much for Giscard " (ndlr: Giscard is still alive)

- Immobility is running and nothing may stop it.

He is corsican and mayor of a municipality close to that of Sarko ...

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/santini%2Bandr%25C3%25A9/video/x4qvzk_zemmour-face-andr-santini_news

[rocket]

Azloon

"yeah, many of the great public irish poets and dramatist were drunks, i am sorry to say. ireland has the highest incidence of teen-age alcoholism in the eurozone, and the highest % of adult teetotalers. it's a stereotype that happens to fit. i know."

Please check out your figures here.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122842679622780557.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

"The country with the largest share of heavy younger drinkers is Belgium, where 56% of the respondents in the 14-to-29 age range said they need five or more drinks before they are impaired."

"With the combination of high-frequency drinking and little variation in consumption patterns across age categories, the Netherlands scored as the heaviest-drinking country in the survey. In total, 40% of Dutch respondents said they can consume five or more drinks before they are impaired, the highest level in the survey."

[Pierre]

"But the idea of purity was there Racism? (...) Children were still being told this idea (a special pleading) that conveyed the idea and gave an ideology no less problematic than the idea of Germans and Germany which was a major factor in the 1930s there."

THINKNOWORPLAYLATER

You should think it back and get over some confusions. The idea of racial purity was (to the least) not central to the historical constructions taught by the "Hussards noirs " (school teachers) of the 3rd Republic.
Generally speaking one should not confuse the republican-nationalism of the likes of Clemenceau & Jules Ferry, even through its colonial application, and the reactionary nationalism professed by Barres and Maurras.

As for Vercingetorix & Cie, it's hard to reproach a posteriori both that France tried to raise children from its African colonies in the idea that their ancesters were "gauls" and that doing so it/she was promoting racial purity.
The "gaulois" myth (actually all national myths are not always harmful notions)was originally a creation of Napoleon III (he had a Vercingetorix statue built on the Mont-Auxois) but it survived its promotor maybe precisely to help recover and reunite from the 1870's defeat against Prussia and the collapse of the second empire.
That teaching at a time when Cesar's De Bello Gallico was rediscovered had also a more paradoxal meaning we might believe (according to the historian Pierre Cabanes): the Gauls presented as brave and lively but sloppy and eternally divided (it remains in the AS use of "Gallic" that this blog discussed in a previous controversy) were also presented as "natural born losers" against the roman order, unity and civilisation.
So it's rather unfair and inaccurate to put on the same step "Nos ancêtres les Gaulois" (even if it might, for some, help pursue a idea of "natural frontier" and was contemporary to the quest of recapture of the lost territories around the blue line of the Vosges) and Prussia's pangermanism from Bismark to the third Reich quest of lebensraum.