The Obama effect and why François becomes Mohammed

In Sarcelles, a northern suburb,  I walked through a crowd of black children yesterday who were arguing about which of them was "le plus Obama" -- the most like Obama.

As it has done all over Europe, the election of a US president called Barack Hussein has given a lift to minorities who feel marooned outside the mainstream.

This weekend, the imminent arrival in the White House of someone with an African Muslim name has prompted a new campaign for racial integration, supported by Carla Bruni, President Sarkozy's wife.

Yazid Zabeg, an Algerian-born millionaire and the JDD Sunday newspaper have produced a "manifesto for real equality". Under the Obama slogan "Oui, nous pouvons" (Yes we can), the manifesto points to the "cruel contrast" between France's racially divided society and the lesson of inclusion that came from the United States. Bruni says in the JDD that she loves multi-ethnic France and that it is time to "help the elite to change".

This is a touchy subject because of France's policy of assimilating immigrants into the mainstream society of la République without much tolerance for other ethnic and religous communities.

The Obama election is in tune with a new assertiveness among non-white French over the matter of their names.  Increasingly, young descendants of immigrants are seeking to drop their Christian names and claim new ones -- and identities -- from their Arab and African backgrounds.

The trend in which Louis, Laurent or Marie want to become Abdel, Said or Rachida has made the media recently, so, along with Marie Tourres, our Paris reporter, I looked into it. We found that the requests from immigrants' children for name changes are mounting in the law-courts and worrying a state that lays store on melding a single national culture. Most of the applications are coming from people with families from Algeria, Tunisia and Moroco, the three former Maghreb colonies.

In the past, France  -- like other host nations -- tacitly encouraged immigrant families to give French names to their offspring and adopt them for themselves. It was a way of belonging in a République that discourages the existence of "communitarisme".

Names are a serious matter in France. Until a reform in 1992, parents could only register their babies with prénoms that were on an official list. Even now, to change a first name, you have to file a request with the local prosecutors' office and often argue your case before a judge.

The youngsters who want to switch say that they feel that they do not belong to their French Christian names. They are hitting resistance from judges who are reluctant to endorse what they see as rejection of France.

"The way I look is out of sync with my name," said Jacques, 25, who wants to adopt a name from his parents' native Algeria. He rejected the standard view that a French name overcomes the persisting reluctance of French employers to recruit non-white minorities.  "There is a double take when I send a job application and then turn up for the interview. They hesitate, as if the person they have summoned could not be me," he said.

Le Monde reported the case of Nadine, who is in her 40s. She failed to convince a Paris court to let her go back to Zoubida, the name she had before naturalisation as a student.  "I want to return to my roots," she told Judge Anne-Marie Lemarinier in Paris. "My name change makes me feel guilt towards my family."  The judge replied: "Madame, I can understand that you want to identify with your community but the law does not have to bend to people's moods."

In the other direction, Judge Lemarinier refused to let a patriotic -- and Socialist -- immigrant call their new-born boy Jhospin-Delors.  That was a tribute to Lionel Jospin, the former Prime Minister and Jacques Delors, the French former President of the European Commission. 

Hervé Charles, a deputy prosecutor who handles names at the suburban town of Melun, told us that religion was not behind most applications. "It is cultural and about identifying with their communities,"  he said. "I tell them that taking a foreign name has consequences. But often these people are suffering because of remarks from friends or when they visit the home country.... It is the problem of immigrants. They are always a foreigner to someone."

Frédéric Grilli, a Melun lawyer who acts for applicants, said that there was a connection between the desire to claim Maghebrin identity and France's law against girls wearing Muslim head-dress in state schools. "The first name is another way of expressing one's identity," he told us. "In general these are kids whose parents called them Francois or Olivier because they themselves suffered from racism."

The trend back to Muslim names is still outweighed by applications by Maghrebins for French first names, but immigrant advocates see the rising tide as a symptom of discrimination against the six million French of Muslim origin.

Dominique Sopo, President of SOS Racism, the main campaign group, said that France's policy of integration is failing. "It rejects, stigmatizes and consigns to the ghetto. This incites a retreat into community identity," he told us by phone.  "There is an enormous gap between political speeches on integration and the reality. But who can believe that changing a name can change something ? It is sad to have got to that point."

[Below: Bruni on a visit to la banlieue]

Comments

[dot king]

Interesting - Amélie Nothomb's novel "L'Acide Sulphurique"** shows how important one's name is.
As soon as someone knows your real name (I'm referring to the novel) they have power over you. On the other hand, in a world (in fact a TV reality show from which the players, kidnapped in, will not escape alive) where you are identified by a number, imposed by the rules of the "game", letting someone "other" know your name from choice is giving them a gift, or is a strong bargaining factor if the "other" is "enemy".

Identity is all, and I don't find it surprising that 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants want a name that (they think) gives them some kind of concrete identity.
I feel sorry that it's so important however, that you can't make your way in the world whatever your given, or chosen, name, and that bthere's this need to revert to symbolism.

**Very good novel, usual reliable quality from Nothomb in her Greek tragedy-style restricted, isolated environment. The parallels are easy to draw, the message is deeper.

[John Gregory Flinn]

"...name she had before naturalisation as a student. "I want to return to my roots," she told Judge Anne-Marie Lemarinier in Paris."

It is tempting to take her literally, and let her.

Many of the arguments made (above) by "minorities who feel marooned outside the mainstream", are the same as those made for that dreaded, leftist polemic - multi-culturalism in the UK and, to a lesser extent north America.

France has an admirable conviction about its republican values which others lack, or fail to understand. And which seems untroubled by the whims and vagaries of fashion trends as your quotation of Judge Anne-Marie Lemarinier reply demonstrates.

[isobel]

I can't understand what all the fuss is about - in the UK it's very easy to change your name by deed poll - it costs £34 (I've just checked on the website http://www.ukdps.co.uk/).Provided the name isn't offensive , or contains numbers or symbols or is unpronounceable you can change your name to what you like. Apparently this service has been in operation for 150 years and doesn't seem to have posed a major threat to society.

[abul]

America would be a cultural "dead meat" if it ever veers round to the views of French belief of integration and evolution of newcomer.

[Blendi Progri]

This phenomena is happening in UK also, i am not talking about emmigrants but some native white folks (to me most of them seem lonely and a tad depressed) who feel that islam&another name will give some meaning to their life. And they convert.

Bless them. Allah is great, in fact the gr8-est (some say)

When 'Jimmy-no-mates' becomes Abdullah it doesnt bother me, but when 'William-the-nice-guy', has a problem in life, feels lonely & in pain (as all of us do at some stage) then he may see 'islamisation' as a cure for his ills.

This is the price that some people on the fringes pay for a fractured society, in the west. God only knows how it can be fixed, if ever.
---
I know, you are all curious to hear what name William may chose...well I say I will become concerned only when he decides to become...

...AISHA.

[azloon]

Blendi

a quelle heure do you crack la premiere bouteille? earlier and earlier since late tuesday evening/early wednesday morning? :)

re: your post

why, i wonder, do you feel the need to question a person's motives about a name change, or a religious conversion?

you obviously view this as some sort of weakness on their part.

may i suggest a bit more charity and tolerance? might there be more than one legitimate option for dealing with life's difficulties?

p.s. i do enjoy reading your riffs on life. this one, however, seemed particularly (and uncharacteristically) small-minded.

--------

i remember well when cassius clay, aka muhammed ali, changed his name a half-century ago. at first, i was startled, and derided his choice. i really didn't want to have to 'play along' with his 'game.'

eventually, though, it seemed perfectly natural to call him by his new chosen name. and it seemed perfecting right that he should be able to make that change for whatever personal reason.

do any french here think this resistance to name changes is a bit cracked?

[Joan Arles]

The official regulation of names is one of the charms of France. It's a good thing that commentators on this blog do not have to apply to the prosecutor's office for the right to use a pseudonym!

[Lex Stevens]

Remember London thirty years ago? There was no racial integration in central London. The most exotic thing one could find was an Italian selling food or coffee. Even the people sleeping rough under the arches were white. If you ventured into the suburbs, a whole new world emerged. Now the social fabric looks more like New York.

In the United States at the beginning of WWII, German had been for many generations the second largest language group after English. People stopped speaking it because of the war. New York supported two Yiddish newspapers and many Yiddish theaters for several generations. I know dozens of people who speak Spanish, French, Russian, Cantonese, Dutch, Italian, Greek, Hindi, Suomi, German at home and with their families, yet they speak perfect English and are completely integrated into American society. You would never guess that they spoke a second language daily.

I think what we have learned in the US is that people need to approach integration at their own pace. They must send their children to school, and they must work and pay their taxes, and they are encouraged to partake of all that the United States has to offer. What needs to be understood is that the first immigrants will always feel like foreigners to a certain degree, and the second generation will often feel trapped between two worlds. If they need a name to help them feel a little more secure, then so be it.

They need to believe that through hard work and determination that they can make it to whatever level of society they wish, even into the highest levels. When Lehman Brothers closed, and the people who worked there were leaving the building with their boxes of things from their desks, half of them being interviewed by the press either spoke accented English or were darker skinned.

I once became friendly with a woman staying at the same hotel I was in for three weeks in London. She was in London taking a course in off-shore financial advising. She complained that she was the only woman in the course, and that none of the men took her seriously, despite the fact that she knew the material better than anyone else. I looked at her, and she was all curls and flounce and lace with great big spectacles. I diplomatically mentioned that in the United States, women who rose to high levels in the corporate world dressed more like men. They wore suits, wore their hair shorter and often pulled back, with little make up and more subtle spectacles. She looked at me like I was mad, and said, "But them I wouldn't be myself." She didn't complete the course, and I have always wondered what happened to her. And then came Margaret Thatcher.

All over the United States right now, there are parents yelling at their children in either their native language or in heavily accented English: "stop listening to that music!", or "why do you dress like that?", or "why do you wear your hair like that?" Then they commiserate with their friends that their parents don't understand them.

Now and forever, amen.

[Blendi Progri]

Az, most of it is a joke mate, thats how I meant about J and W, Aisha too.
(damn it doesnt translate well in print)

Motives are very complex and every individual case has its own merit, and its the choice of the individual. And if nothing, sometimes one doesnt need to read anything behind it. As the other person said, in UK (other countries too) is very easy to change a name/ surname etc.
Pay & display. Thats all mate! Pay & Display.

Try (int. or not) not to group me with few homophobes that vegetate openly around here.

Of course, there could be more legitimate reasons for anyone dealing with life diff. as they see fit.

Your counting is getting better:)as is your sleep, seems 2me.

btw how is Rosa?
(folks, to these who dont know, Signora Rosa Anna Maria Concita Menendes Fernado Alonso Rodrigues Tegucigalpas is Azloon's housekeeper? great lady!)
--.
Now will I be accused of not liking the kind gesture of yours (employing an illegal allien from mexico)I dont know.
What I know is that I like your posts too!

[Marguerite.]

A propos de prenom:
Le frere d'un de mes amis libanais s'est fait arreter, au Liban, en 1976, a un barrage, par des milices islamistes:"passeport". Ils lui ont tire decu. Il est mort. Il etait chretien. Prenom: Christian.
En temps de guerre, il faut peut-etre changer de prenom.

[Dominique]

Racism is back, well and alive. People now believe that culture and religion are genetic. They call it "identity". Emancipation is dead. Even CB obviously doesn't know about it.

They'll soon start to fight...no doubt. It is time to remind people that identities along with religion are the reason why people hate each other so much around the world. "Individual identity" is the new name for "tribe" or "race". Political correctness at his best.

Back to the 19th century, hold tight! the consequences will be the same as by then.

[Dominique]

Whith Obama elected US president, claiming the concept of "post racial" society and fullfiling the french dream of universal citizenship, it is sad to see so many in France taking the way back, moving away from the concept of "creuset républicain".

[Robert Marchenoir]

This new trend about French Muslims with an Christian name wanting to shed it is not the most worrying one.

I think the real problem is -- and I don't have any figures here, but I would be very suprised to be proven wrong -- that most French Muslims give Muslim names to their children to begin with.

I'm sure Muslims with a Christian name at birth are but a tiny minority.

And that's probably the case all over Europe. Mohamed is now the most common name for babies in a growing number of places over Europe -- and I don't mean Muslim babies, I mean all babies.

This is a colonisation in progress, folks. Islamisation of Europe is growing by the day.

http://www.fdesouche.com/articles/9190

[christopher muir]

The eminent Polish film director, the late Krzysztof Kieslowski, once noted that in real life, there are names that surprise us because they don't seem to suit the person at all.

[S]

Wow. Not being able to choose one's own name?? The French could learn something from Barack Hussein Obama. His story is only possible in America, and nowhere else.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

To change one's name in England, go to any solcitor and it can be done for a small sum (it was £5. 20 years ago) This way you can get a new passport, plus an Israel only passport if travelling in the Middle East (Some Arab countries refuse entry to anyone with an Israel visit stamped in the passport. If you pay more to have it done "by deed poll" it means it will be recorded in Hansard, and thus traceable by lynx-eyed newspaper reporters checking back! There was a story of a Jewish businessman who changed his name from Liebowitz to Smith and then changed it again to Harrison, and when smarties said: "And what was your name before you changed it?" He truthfully said: "Smith"

[tomfrog]

CB : "Until a reform in 1992, parents could only register their babies with prénoms that were on an official list."

What's that ?? Are you kidding ? Maybe you talk about something that prevent mayors etc to register a baby under a name IF that name can harm the baby.

Because I know a loooot of friend with very unconventional names.

[Mauvezin]

>> Marguerite
"En temps de guerre, il faut peut-etre changer de prenom."
****************************
Temps de guerre
Temps de folie

[Pierre Bernardi]

I thought that that was "enough about names", Charles?

Are there one or two hypocrites on this blog?

[Pierre]

Azloon asks "do any french here think this resistance to name changes is a bit cracked?"
Just a little bit. The "resistance to change is not that strong, it's more a resisting regulation. There is some rigidity but the "immuabilité" principle is tempered in practice by the notion of a "legitimate interest" to change.
Why absolute freedom is not the rule is a long story, questionable but also understandable relating to national cohesion.
It's also a bit short and unprecise frome CB to say that before 1992 names had to be chosen on an "official list"....that did not exist.
Putting it this way seems to acreditate some idea of a soviet style control on name choosing.
The principle had been since the revolution of a control (that was due to prevent the excesses of absolute freedom of choice that took place during the early stages of the revolution and to protect children from irresponsible parents' choices exposing them to being ridiculised all life long). However administrative regulation and la "jurisprudence" (+/- =precedents) had constantly "widened" the criterias.
It's true that here and there one could be the victim of an over zealed officier d'état civil and be exposed to some kafkaian relations with the administration. But globally freedom of choice was repected.
Even before 1992 all names listed on (all sorts of) calendars, appearing in ancient hsitroy, mythology, local and foreign traditions, familial history ASO ASO were. Quite a large "official list".
The law of 1992 did rightfully reverse the principle (freedom of choice, limits= protection of the child). It was a true evolution. Not a revolution.

[Pierre]

About "the "cruel contrast" between France's racially divided society and the lesson of inclusion that came from the United States. "

We have had a large number of comments and analyses in France those last days- preceeding this Carla supported call- saying how we were cruelly exposed by Obama's election. Often rightfully. (Not only because he's black but because he's young and has a "real life" work experience other than law, business and politics).
However is it just because Obama was elected means that the USA have suddenly turned in a less racially divided society than France?
The true failures of the french integration model is a complex phenomenon that also/mainly has economical and social causes.
To cut a long story short some of them can be foud in the weakening of the republican values and the growing ifluence of the "liberal" -french sense- economy on integration.
The more France has been looking like the USA these laste 20 years (with its communities, racial ghettos and global crime rise) the more AS commentators were criticising here (rightfully it must be said) what it seems theu sometimes had abandoned criticising at home.
Post Thatcher's England in a way also showed the way, at least if we remember the "Guns of Brixton". And I doubt that even in the multiracial CoolBritannia herited from Blair, racial divisions have been overwhelmed. Not more I suspect than knife crimes by youth gangs.
I even understand that while the French were begining to take interest in the community policing models and prevention of discriminations in the UK, many in the UK (or in the Netherlands) had been considering with less disdain the french traditionnal refusal of organised communautarism.
Obama now comes with a message that is precisely that of more "integration" ("WE"). His election is an answer to 200 years of racial divisions and another great contribution to narrow them.
What the message tells us, French, is not that we should be more American (this seems to be the consolation Rocket& others finally managed to find in his election). It tells we should rediscover the (true) ways to be French.

[azloon]

[to protect children from irresponsible parents' choices exposing them to being ridiculised all life long] Pierre B

after reading CB's post, i went back to refresh my memory about what Grace Slick (of Jefferson Airplane fame) had named her first child. 'God' as i discovered, but later changed to 'China.' i can imagine that Grace, a notorious boozer, and now a sober citizen, is a bit horrified at her initial choice.

hopefully, her kid was young enough not to have had to endure a teacher's recitation of her name on her first day of kindergarten.

PB, would 'Dweisel' (as in Dweisel Zappa) have made the french grade?

[azloon]

[It tells we should rediscover the (true) ways to be French] PB

yes, but this process may involve some flexibility which, if what we often read here is an indication, is not always the most prominent french character trait.

Carlita's reaction to BO's election was a bit of liberal, reflexive swooning.

but her heart's in the right place.

yeah, BO's election doesn't end racism here. but it is amazing how powerful the message of the election has been for many marginalized americans.

[Lex]

As I have mentioned before, Boston is a city that has a long and troubled history of race relations. When I moved to Boston over twenty years ago, one would never encounter a Black waiter or shop clerk. That has now changed, yet I still occasionally encounter people in my store who are hesitant to take advice from a Black employee or to hand one their credit card. When this happens, I am the one who has to lead the way, I am the one who has to guide the fearful and show them that it makes no difference.

I was thinking today that the issues that I hear of in France do not necessarily have to be solved by the government. The people who hire -- bankers, business people, shop keepers, etc. -- can decide that they want to work toward an end to the ethnic discrimination in France and lead the way by hiring Arabs and Africans. The citizens and residents of France who read this blog can do their part by discussing this with and encouraging the people they know or work with who make hiring decisions to take the first steps.

Our ancestors fought wars and had revolutions so that we could live in free and fair societies. Let us honor their memory and their struggles by not letting fear keep us from doing what is right. Let us pass on a better society to those who come after us, just as was done for us.

[sebastien]

Azloon:

Frank Zappa was a serial offender: Dweezil, Moon Unit, Diva Muffin... He certainly wouldn't have been allowed to get away with it by any self-respecting French état-civil official, required by law to protect the child's interest (but I wonder if Zappa's offspring actually object to their own names?). A couple were prevented from calling their baby girl Mégane a year or two ago, the objection being not to the name itself, but to the combination of Mégane and their surname of Renault (the Renault company's best-selling car is the Mégane). Sometimes the name is disallowed because it is considered demeaning in itself, one example being Clitorine. It happens elsewhere, too: a couple in Sweden tried to call their child Metallica not long ago, but the authorities wouldn't allow it.

[Blendi Progri]

The eminent Polish film director, the late Krzysztof Kieslowski, once noted that in real life, there are names that surprise us because they don't seem to suit the person at all.
Posted by: christopher muir

LOL @ Chris. I was going to ask how do you pronounce KK's name? But wont, and if KK was here I would have asked him if he ever considered changing his name.

In Poland (I always wondered, but didn’t talk it over with anyone, as it seemed such a crazy idea) seems feasible from a distance that a husband and a wife can have a huge fight with curses/name calling/ swearing et al, based on the consonants alone.

Peter Kinsley, few weeks ago a friend of mine changed his name to a more European one, he felt that living in UK from sometime with an ethnic name made him feel different. Now he is going to work in Portugal (called himself Manuel, no I am not kidding, lol, is a good guy- Chinese- am saying this as people Now are a little surprised on meeting him/ hearing his name that before) at the same sector and level of expertise but somehow felt he needed to change name.

It was done very easily, on-line, just like that. He also ordered copies of teh 1-st copy and the real trouble started afterwards; as one has to notify IR, change name on NI, the Bank Acc, DVLA, GP and so on and when you think its done there’s always one more. He ‘discovered' that e-bay/Paypal didn’t work, his Amazon account needed updating etc, etc, but mostly things can be done, as long as there is a will there’s name change.

LEX I agree with your last paragraph, it can’t be said any better.
-----------.
Changing a name steams often from an universal desire to get ‘done’ with the past and start afresh. Many people had change names or used pseudonyms in order not to be ‘known’ for a period of time in life, such as during wars, arts, lit, movies etc.

On pseudonyms from the writers of the last few '00 years I can say most catching, concise and ‘good looking’ nick for me is that of Henri Marie Beyle.

[Eddy]

The white European culture is about to die a slow death with all these Muhammads running around. It will need an iron will of all right and free-thinking peoples from all over the world to fight this Islamic menace. The Americans are fools to have elected Barack Hussein Obama. The madrassas in America will not lack for recruits now!

[dada]

eddy...

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=O3f5KjF_qFE

[Tara from Texas]

Why isn't there a way to post this to Facebook? This is interesting stuff.

[paul]

While France prepares to celebrate its national identity (Nov 11th)(without the Germans!), the reality is that France (like Britain) has not got rid of its imperial mindset which basically contradicts its claims to universal human rights. The 'imperial' actions are being celebrated : Harkis, Tirailleurs sénégalais (famous for massacring Algerian Arabs - Sétif). A sort of French 'our boys'. Apart from a few token figures in the French government, the immigrant population are determined to create their own roots in the housing estates where they were dumped in the 60S. The reality of exploitation : the reality is a segregated society : Algerian builders, African security guards, Asian cooks.
Republicanism is rootless, has no history, no human dimension.

[paul]

Second helping :
it's worrying that names are taken so seriously (this terrible tendency to truth and realism which marks the sophisticated and manipulative ways of advanced modern society).
Thanks to a name given at the adoption of my father I have been identified in Britain as a member of a different and inferior culture! But I note that in France people change their names for the resistance and in Britain peers adopt new unrecognisable names.
In a word do names matter so much, except for snobs?

[John Gregory Flinn]

"Why isn't there a way to post this to Facebook"

Why 'Facebook' - that's for friends isnt it?

Sarkozy is reported as saying to Obama "vous pouvez faire la même" about being elected (apologies if the quotation is not quite right).
Others have interpreted this on an ethnic basis, thus leading to endless recycling of racial implications, 'mea culpa' etc., here and elsewhere. But I believe Sarkozy was referring to the fact that they were both sons of immigrants.

[Pierre Bernardi]

Paul, you must be mistaken. I have just seen pictures of the French president and Carla at a memorial ceremony in front of a German flag, in a German cemetary in the north of France, in the presence of the German president.

[Pierre]

Azloon
Though being french I can show some flexibility, but not enough to be Pierre B. or PB.
Just call me Pierre.
Before 92 Franck Steevie Ray John Lee or even Elvis probably would have met the grade (if born from an American parent I suppose). Dweisel?... Joker (comme on dit par ici). Since 92 no problemo.
Talking about the amazing Obama effect, et toutes choses égales par ailleurs, you surely noticed the amazing effect it had on these deeply americanophobes french people (Marginalized, Bobos, White, Arabs, Blacks, Middle Class, Lower Class, Young, Old, ASO...)

[Lex Stevens]

"(this terrible tendency to truth and realism which marks the sophisticated and manipulative ways of advanced modern society).
Thanks to a name given at the adoption of my father I have been identified in Britain as a member of a different and inferior culture!" -- Paul

I wish I knew what all that meant.

The early American radical feminists discussed what they called 'the power of naming.' Examples of this are currently seen in the names 'terrorist', 'insurgent', 'rogue'.

I always think of the 'authorities' in the US and Canada issuing names to Native American (or First Nation in Canada) children, or owners naming slaves, or the authorities at Ellis Island in New York changing people's names as they entered the US.

I once met a man married to a woman whose family were dairy producers in Ecuador. One of the family's products had been named after her grandmother, which was an unusual and old fashioned name. When their daughter was born, she wanted to give the child her grandmother's name. The Registrar rejected the name because it was "the name of a dairy product."

We of the dominant, Christian culture in 'the west' draw names from our cultural & historical canon. Yet there are commonalities in Christian, Jewish and Muslim cultures because we are all 'people of the book.'

Shall we ban the names Noah and Abraham because they are in the Koran? Shall we ban Ruth and Rachel because they are not Christian names? Shall we ban Anna and Gideon and Jacob because they are the names of prophets? Shall we ban Encarnación and Asunción because they are...what...phenomena?

Much derision is directed toward African Americans in the US because they 'make up' names for their children. Upon closer inspection, evidently this is common in parts of African. In Mexico it is common to name a male child Jesus, which Americans find a sacrilege.

My grandfather and his siblings were named after the founders of a sect of Presbeterianism that his father's family converted to. When I go into those churches, I see the names of those founders -- and now the names that are common throughout my father's family. My name is a compilation of some of those names. Somehow it makes me feel good, it makes me feel connected to my family history and to something greater than myself.

I think that it is a mistake -- and a temptation -- to take a sanitized view of the past. We do not have to go too far back in history to see attitudes and beliefs and actions that were based in interpretations of Christianity that now we find abhorrent. If we truly believe that the values of the Enlightenment, Magna Carta, and the American and French Revolutions are universal, then should they not apply to Islamic culture as well?

[Daniel Strohl]

JOHN GREGORY,

" But I believe Sarkozy was referring to the fact that they were both sons of immigrants".

Yes, I agree with that. And being sons of immigrants implies of course that they don't belong to the fashionable elite - so important in France, not to say a sine qua non criterion; may be less so in the US, I don't know.

PS : the correct quotation was probably "vous pouvez faire la même chose". Good prediction !

[rocket]

Pierre

"Putting it this way seems to acreditate some idea of a soviet style control on name choosing."

But it is Pierre! Try to see though your own rhetoric. Your responses are systematically peppered with excuses why something is not possible here.

Have you ever noticed that?

[xboy]

Name yourself and your kids whatever you want. In USA the only problem is that you will become frustrated b/c no one ever knows how to pronounce it. But everyone wants to be special to the world, it is not enough to be special to your family as much anymore.

[AMAL]

the french are crazy, out of touch with the world and if it was up to them they will make all of us their subjects and try to push their, stupid way of life. why are people, country or society that stupid. the french can kiss my (you know what) and one day this world would be past these kind of low level attitudes, the french invented the perfume because they would piss and shit right around the corner from their palaces until the smell was dreadful. that's who the french are.

[Balakumar]

When I read this story I thought of Nazi Germany.

Thank God I have immigrated to Canada a wonderful country that is way ahead of this poor country - France.

[Christina]

This reminds me of a phenomena from a few years ago when for some reason everyone became a kabbalist (however that is spelled)!!!!!. People are fickle....Find WHO you are and stick with it!!! Do be someone you're not just because of admiration or personal confusion!

[Bill]

I don't suppose that a possible route to reduced alienation of and discrimination against minorities in Europe is through marriage into royal families? Did the presence of Princess Alexandra in the Danish Royal Family help in any way to alter attitudes towards racial minorities in that kingdom or anywhere else in Europe?

[rocket]

Interesting how this debate climbed out of the woodwork on the morning of November 5th.

As of the announcement of Obama President, there were petitions to be signed questions to be asked Prefets to be named etc.

Kinda "We're all Obama"

At least for a day!

Once again we can discern from this type of knee jerk response in a country in which the leitmotif is, we are all equal, it is mandated so let's not talk about it.

One good thing about all of this is that because of the eternal competition France has entered into with the United States, the French now feel that they have the go ahead to at least ask a couple questions of themselves concerning diversity of racial representation.

Mais pourquoi cette remise en question ne coule pas de source

[Valentin]

"Your responses are systematically peppered with excuses why something is not possible here."

Rocket getting personal and French bashing again.
In what way is it a soviet style control then? I was under the impression that the judge's objection was that it takes very serious reasons to change a name. The same criteria applies for whites or catholics. Where in the world can you change your name (on your ID) every time you change your personal philosophy, or religion?

[Pierre]

Rocket
Good to read your exquisitely balanced and argued analyse again. Are you sure your neighbour is not a soviet spy?

[rocket]

Valentin

"Where in the world can you change your name (on your ID) every time you change your personal philosophy, or religion?"

With all due respect the answer is...

The United States of America.

[isobel]

Valentin said
Where in the world can you change your name (on your ID) every time you change your personal philosophy, or religion?

Answer - in the UK - as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread on 9th November.The website of the Deed Poll service http://www.ukdps.co.uk
imposes certain restrictions - ie you must be able to pronounce the name it can't include numbers or symbols but apart from that it states:

"you can change your forenames, surname (or both), add names, remove names or rearrange your existing names. You can change your name at any time and for any reason provided it is not for deceptive or fraudulent purposes or for the avoidance of an obligation".

Et voila!

[John Gregory Flinn]

"When I read this story I thought of Nazi Germany"

I'm not sure what point BALAKUMAR is making here!?
The French system resisting name changes is surely a safeguard against the sort of thing that, for example, occurred in Korea during the Japanese occupation prior to 1945. Koreans were obliged to change their names to Japanese because without one they could not enter schools, get jobs, hold ration cards, or even have mail delivered.
Who knows what Islam might demand next were this resistance relaxed.....!

[Alexis]

Being mixed, British and a lifetime expatriate in the Gulf, I can honestly say that my apparently Greek origin name has never done me any harm. The US is a different case study, where the majority ethnic group are themselves immigrants from western Europe. Ironically Muslims and the Gulf Arabs in particular have more respect for people with a strong indigenous culture so the French are probably on the right track, so long as it is applied consistently.

[Valentin]

Granted. Chapeau. Now putting my hat back on, I ask: and does that make the rest of the world a soviet state for being more careful about this ?...