France remembers the Great War

  [update: Sarkozy ceremony story here]

The Prince of Wales is dining with President Sarkozy at the Elysée Palace tonight ahead of tomorrow's 90th anniversary of Armistice Day. We are taking a train in the early morning to watch them mark the event at Verdun, site of one of the most terrible battles, along with Peter Müller, President of the German upper house. Sarkozy is breaking with tradition by visiting the battlefield rather than just presiding over the ceremony at the tomb of the unknown soldier under the Arc de Triomphe [Picture above updated after Tuesday ceremony]

Nine decades on from 1918, older people have been voicing surprise at the lack of concern among the young for la der des ders -- the war to end all wars. A large village in Brittany could not raise enough young volunteers to represent symbolically the 699 dead whose names are inscribed on the local memorial. Nothing brings home the butchery of the Great War than those sad lists on the monuments aux morts in the  villages and towns across France.

The last French poilu -- Great War soldier -- died last February. There are two surviving veterans in Britain. As Sarkozy has said, the war is passing from memory into history. My 17-year-old son asked over breakfast what was the point of the ceremonies, since it was was a long time ago and those who took part are nearly all gone. It was hard not to express surprise at the question because the Great War was so much part of our lives, even though we were born after the Second World War. My grandfather drove a tank on the western front with the Seaforth Highlanders and survived. His brother James was killed at Ypres. We grew up knowing survivors. They didn't talk much about it but we were aware of the horror of  the shells, machine-guns and gas.

Like all French lycée pupils, my son has studied the la Grande Guerre. My 15-year-old daughter reels off the basic facts. In France, as in Britain, there has been a literary fascination over the past two decades for the war. But it is understandable that the emotion has faded.

Britain tries to keep the memory alive, mainly with the ritual of wearing Flanders poppies. In France, November 11 is a public holiday and every town and village has its wreath-laying. Most people are just happy to have the day off and do some early Christmas shopping, le Monde noted today. "Very few people could tell you exactly what happened on that marvellous November 11," it said. "The majority celebrate the beauty of autumn, the pleasure of going to the cinema and lying in late...". Le Monde's commentator concluded that even if people knew little about it, the war was inescapable. It had left an indelible mark on the collective conscience of France. He used a quoted from William Faulkner that Barack Obama cited during his campaign: "The past is never dead. It's not even past."

There is a little row going on today because a government-appointed expert has concluded that France has too many memorial days, including an excessive number covering World War Two.  André Kaspy, an historian, recommended down-grading annual days commemorating such things as the world war two deportations, the abolition of slavery, the dead of the Algerian war and six other historic events. He wants to keep as national events just November 11, May 8 -- the Victory over Nazi Germany --  and the July 14 celebration of the 1789 revolution.

Downgrading the days linked with past shame -- slavery, deportation and Algeria and so on -- is in keeping with Sarkozy's belief that France repents too much for past sins. But Sarkozy is also enthusiastic about keeping wartime memory alive.

Kaspy's proposal has prompted anger from those involved in the lesser commemorations and the Government appears to be ready to back down. It has also abandoned a reported plan to end the national holiday on May 8 and turn it into a simple Europe day. That is not such a revolutionary idea since General de Gaulle got rid of the VE day holiday in 1959 in the name of reconciliation with Germany. President Valéry Giscard d'Estaing revived it in 1975 -- at about the time that France was beginning to examine its record under the occupation.

Comments

[Monika]

Interesting how differently same events are seen in different countries.

Here in Germany of course we all learn about the terrible slaughter during World War I but it is almost exclusively superseded by World War II.

Of course we commemorate (but less with ceremonies) both wars and particularly the last one under a different angle of view. Nonetheless, concerning the impact on our collective conscience of WW1 is small and evokes the same vage feelings of horror as does the Thirty Years War - unlike WW2.

My grandfather who died when I was young had been a medical at Verdun where he - if I remember well - recieved a splinter that he carried his whole live but he never talked about his experiences. Though my parents were little children during WW2, this war is much more present for me, not only because it is more recent but also that it is still a matter of discussion and common interest is kept up.

[Blendi Progri]

Just a friendly invitation to my fellow posters to come in here ( from the Vichy psot) so we can contniue our battles in here, is becoming harder and harder to scroll down, and dont forget we have senior citizens that can do better things than scrolling up& down :)

On Topic now, in Britain the same was said, the living link connecting us to the WW1 is severed and soon that will be history. Children know a little about it and if tehy do the horrors dont seem 'real. Such is time.
The Poppy tradition i England is a great one, 1 hours ago going past Oxford St, saw a lady walking in the rain with an umbrella and a Poppy tapped in her black bag, what an original choice, I though.

[Blendi Progri]

A kick from a giraffe can kill a man.

[ken]

It's quite appropriate that France, UK and Germany get together to remember and commemorate that horrific slaughter. But I find it odd, Charles, that they seem to have forgotten that the US played a role too, and in fact determined the outcome. No need for recognition of that, even if it's 90 years gone?

[Jolly Swagman]

"Interesting how differently same events are seen in different countries."

Yes it is!

Here in Australia we have seen over the last 20 years the opposite: an enormous increase in interest by young people in WWI.
On ANZAC day many thousands of young Australians and New Zealanders make the pilgrimages to Gallipoli and Villers-Bretonneux to attend the dawn services.
In addition to remembering the slaughter and sacrifice it's important for us as a defining moment in our new nation's history. The disaster at Gallipoli redefined our relationship with the mother country so soon after our independence in 1901.
Perhaps the interest is also due to the fact that young Aussies are now serving overseas in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now that France is involved in Afghanistan attitudes may change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANZAC

[Romain]

Jacques Chirac introduced that commemorative fashion, most of it politically motivated.
The official slavery history was reshaped, simplified, to please West Indies French territories, so much so that a French historian and researcher who published a well documented book on the subject matter was sued.
Another ridiculous law was voted on the memory of the Armenian genocide, in which France had nothing to do whatsoever, but was wanted by Armenien community from Lyon and Marseille. I wonder how we have escaped an armenian commemoration day so far.
11 november and 14 july are the two important anniversary dates in France. The former can represent all wars and victims of wars. Personnaly, it reminds me of my grandfather who was a footsoldier among millions, and was telling me the tales of his own great war.
The rest should be taken care of by associations if they want to, not by the state.

[Judith]

Jolly Swagman is right. In Australia over the last few years there has been a growth of interest in, initially battles in Gallipoli, and now those on the Western Front in France. I think it was a deliberate policy of our former centre-right government which is now being continued by our centre-left government.

It has done wonders for our tourism to France and Turkey. Tours are arranged around the battlefields of Europe.

It is a good thing to remember wars, if only to remind ourselves how horrible they are and how we should refrain from treading those paths of death and destruction again. However I think we should take as our days of commemoration those that reflect higher purpose. The US does well with its national day being the date of signature of the wonderful Declaration of Independence. France commemorates a day of bloodshed on 14 July but it was at least an act of independence. Britain celebrates the Queen's birthday and I think that is positive.

[Sigognac]

I don't think there is any disinterest for WWI and II. Quite the contrary in fact, even if it does not take the form of official ceremonies.
In fact, I would say there is much more interest for WWI nowadays than a few decades ago, when people remembered how reactionary the war veterans could be... (see for instance Julian Jackson, France the dark years and the role of "anciens combattants" between the wars.)
I don't think flag waving and military marches are the best ways to commemorate what was arguably one of the most pointless mass slaughter of all times.

[Daniel Strohl]

BLENDI,

"and dont forget we have senior citizens that can do better things than scrolling up& down :)"

LOL !

[Mads]

My grandfather had a fear and loathing about rats. He would kill them and throw them on a bonfire in the orchard if he found one. I remember as teenager asking him why he did this. His reply has stayed with me and every time I see pictures of the trenches I remember what he said.

My grandfather told me that in their unit they did everything in threes. One to point their rifle over the top and be ready for action; one sleeping; one chasing away the rats that did not care whether the soldier was alive, dead or sleeping. He said they would just jump on them and try to bite chunks of flesh. He said that when early evening came and fighting ceased then if you looked out over the battle field you could see a black wave working its way across the field, amongst the dead and dying. It was the rats coming out for their evening meal.

My grandfather lost his left arm on the battlefield and had the most horrendous time trying to follow the red tape to the medical post. He doesn't remember too much about coming back to England but he came to once on the train because he could hear this drip drip noise. He was on the top bunk and looked down to see where the noise was coming from. He saw that what was left of his arm was dripping blood onto the pillow of the German soldier below him. All he could do was indicate 'sorry' before he passed out.

I know many other people will have heard similar stories from their grandparents but I personally feel it is these personal stories that should be known, so that the horror and sacrifice of that war can be understood. Similar horrors are still happening; lives wasted and communities destroyed. However much history shows us the 'rights and wrongs' of war all one can hope is that knowing the horror and sacrifice might just somewhere make people less ready to engage in death and destruction.

[Jeff]

Ken,
As I see it, it's about commemorating the many people that died, remembering the horror that war inflicts (& continues to inflict) & celebrating the day on which WWI finished. It is not about congratulating various countries for participating or indeed self-congratulation.

[dot king]

One of the most evocative -

http://www.aftermathww1.com/highwood.asp

[Francois D]

Congratulations, one more time, Charles for this paper.

One of my great fathers was also 14-15 in Ypres and survived. My other was injured and I knew very young that it was forbidden to talk about 14-18 war, as his wife and my parents reminded me, because of the risk of nocturnal nightmares that this induced.

I waited 2004 and the release of the film 'A Very Long Engagement "to learn from my mother, that it was maternal grandmother'story who married one first time in late July 1914 and not revit her husband enlisted early August.

http://www.allocine.fr/video/player_gen_cmedia=18369524&cfilm=48349.html

I have always lived on this earth soaked with blood from the war 14-18.

If one must keep one commemorative day, this day must be Nov. 11. Nazism and war 40 are result of this initial war.

When I meet English tourists, visiting war cemeteries in my region, I like to tell them that we are grateful.

It is always glad to see English schoolchildren coaches visiting Commonwealth cemeteries.

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=memorials/ww1mem/vimy

http://www.neuville-saint-vaast.fr/fr/histoire/les-cimetieres/les-cimetieres-francais-et-anglais-rubart812-42.html

Very happy initiatives also to organize joint visits with young Germans, as this is done and to see these kids socializing during the evening on cafes terraces.

[dot king]

I agree JEFF, in the end it isn't about countries, or even governments, but men and boys like these. Bravery, heroism, have many faces.

http://moulindelangladure.typepad.fr/monumentsauxmortspacif/essai_de_perception_nouve.html

[richard.jones]

WW1 compares in casualty figures with the Thirty Years War (1618-1648), except the latter had a much larger civilian component.
WW1 was of course, the war to end war, but it always seemed to us that what the winners did to Germany in many ways helped Adolf, the sociopath, into office. My father was vocal on this issue until his early death (war wounds) in 1926.
The total humiliation of a new and thus proud nation, racking, ruining and running it down into political chaos, judicial anarchy and economic mayhem was bound to see recourse.
There is a rough comparison between what France and Britain exerted upon Germany (putting the total implosion of Austro-Hungary on one side)and what Dick Chainsaw and the NeoTheo-cons did to the USSR after 1992, hopefully we will not see the same results from the USSR as from Germany.
Many thinking people in the 20's felt that WW1 was the event that unleashed a global USA and USSR and viewed it as the end of European civilisation.
It is also curious to me that in many ways like its successor, WW2, it was a war in MittelEuropa decided by outside countries, notably the USA and the USSR.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

The media should repeat that amazing cartoon (any chance CB?) by Philip Zec of the two delegates walking out of the League of Nations meeting when it has been decided to c r u s h Germany as r e v e n g e for WWI. One is saying to the other "Strange -- I thought I heard a baby crying" and in another bubble is: "Classe of 1939)
He forecast the second world war. If this brilliant cartoonist (I worked with his brother Donald in Fleet St) knew -- WHY DID NOT THE STATESMEN IN PARIS?

[Pierre]

It's Kaspi, not Kaspy. For those interested he has been (and I suppose still is) french number one or most famous specialist of (North) american history.
His recommandation is another contribution to a long lasting debate on the memorial celebrations. Prominent historians have been confronting the tendacy to multiplicate those commemorations and still more to have history set by laws (negationnism, slavery, armenian genocide, as Romain reminds). A commission from the Assemblée nationale also gave its report saying that no more of these laws should be passed but only symbolic "resolutions".
I'm not that sur the emotion has that faded abuth WW1. At least not the interest.
These last ten years saw a large progress of the "human history" approach of the war base on letters, testimonies of simple soldiers crushed in to the fatality of the industrial conflict.
Cinema had its part too. More than Jeunet's adaptation of Japrisot's "Un long dimanche de fiancailles", I'd recommand Tavernier's "La vie et rien d'autre" or "Capitaine Conan".

[Edward Johns]

Ken,
are there no ceremonies commemorating the end of WW1 in the USA ? This is a story about not forgetting --surely the USA doesn't forget, even given that American losses were miniscule in comparison to the other main participants'.

[David Powell]

I always felt that this underlined the differences between those who do and those who watch.

And really, it would not matter if it had been written in French or German, would it?

The Effect - Siegfried Sassoon

‘The effect of our bombardment was terrific.
One man told me he had never seen so many dead before.’
—War Correspondent.

‘He’d never seen so many dead before.’
They sprawled in yellow daylight while he swore
And gasped and lugged his everlasting load
Of bombs along what once had been a road.
‘How peaceful are the dead.’
Who put that silly gag in some one’s head?

‘He’d never seen so many dead before.’
The lilting words danced up and down his brain,
While corpses jumped and capered in the rain.
No, no; he wouldn’t count them any more...
The dead have done with pain:
They’ve choked; they can’t come back to life again.

When Dick was killed last week he looked like that,
Flapping along the fire-step like a fish,
After the blazing crump had knocked him flat...
‘How many dead? As many as ever you wish.
Don’t count ’em; they’re too many.
Who’ll buy my nice fresh corpses, two a penny?’

[Monika]

@Richard:
Considering that the population of Central Europe during the 17th century was much lower than today one can measure the impact the Thirty Year War had on the collective mind in Germany and still causes as much as unease as does WW1 (I just came home from a short trip to Schwerin which is really beautifull and more beautifully located at the border of a lake and surrounded by woods. I was told that between 1618 and 1648 Mecklemburg, as the region is called, lost about 4/5 of its population. Other regions shared a similar fate).

Of course it is valid to think that the outcome of ww1 led to the rise of Hitler and ww2 and I do believe that if the outcome of ww1 had been different Hitler would never have happened. On the other hand I believe it wasn't inevitable that Hitler came to power and it may have had a different issue if certain conditions had been treated with more intelligence by German politicians of that time. Despite common believe the NSDAP never won the majority of votes before 1933 but a lot of conservative parties went into coalition with the Nazis hoping to be able to control Hitler who soon prooved them wrong.

[Daniel Strohl]

Mr. JONES,

"but it always seemed to us that what the winners did to Germany in many ways helped Adolf, the sociopath, into office".

He would probably not even have thought to get in office if the social situation (very high unemployment, horrendous inflation) due among others to unreasonably high war reparations had not put in despair millions of people; these were an easy prey for the highly talented and illuminated demagogue without any scruple he was.

He also played the Pan-Germanism card very cleverly and convincingly, since he managed to win the adhesion or at least the neutrality of the officer's caste. In a normal economic situation, it would have been absolutely unthinkable to have a former Austrian corporal as a Reichskanzler and therefore Commander in Chief !

[Terry]

EDWARD said:

"Ken,
are there no ceremonies commemorating the end of WW1 in the USA ?"

Im not, Ken, but I'll give you an answer. We call 11/11 Veteran's Day. There are no parades. Only sales at stores. Banks and Post Offices are closed. American deaths were "only" about 112,000, which is a small percentage of our population. Compare that to Charles's Scotland in which one out of every three men didnt return home. I have a Scottish relative killed at the Somme. (we have his bayonet and kilt-dont ask me how). He was 37 years old at the time. That's rather old to be going over the top. WWI is only given cursory instruction in high school American history classes and, even college. "Secret treaties" is always taught as the reason the war turned into a world war. this is incorrect in my opinion.

Also, there isnt a lot of combat footage to watch as in WWII. The veterans are 99.99% gone. Trench warfare doesnt make for many great movies. Victories resulted in massive casualties with little ground gained. So, there's not much to study from the warfare. Lastly, the armistice at the end of the war started the next one.

BTW Charles: I am sure you know it, but you can look up the war dead in Scottish Memorial in Edinborough. Unfortunately, my relative's name was John Reid. The caretaker (for lack of a better term) laughed when we told him the name. Apparently, several hundred John Reid's were killed at the Somme.

[richard.jones]

@M.Strohl,

It was not only reparations but a determined attempt through trade sanctions and so on to put Germany back in the Dark Ages.
Compare the damage that did with the success generated by totally antithetical policies in 1945 and after.

[richard.jones]

@Monika,

The Thirty Years War was the first pan-European War (I could argue that the American War of Independence was the first World War) and that impact on Prussia/Germany etc. transmutes into other countries and places too, like Brabant, Denmark, Czechoslovakia and so on.
It was that pan-European nature that drew me to the comparison.
You are right about WW1 and WW2 and German local politics, but after the Freikorps and civic disintegration which the WW1 allies actually encouraged how was one supposed to expect a balanced political view in a country where political polarisation was the norm.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

Yes, Terry and many Peter Gillespies in the Roll of WWI dead, but many were blown to bits and their names are on the memorial at the Mennem Gate in Belgium, which I have never been able to visit: I was named after my uncle. He was a brilliant scholar and violinist.
Of course the Americans do have memorials to that war:

"Yankee Doodle Dandy" by George M Cohan, starring James Cagney and the song: "Over There"
Paths of Glory, starring Kirk Douglas***
Sergeant York, starring Gary Cooper
All Quiet on the Western Front, the great anti-war film
There are more....
*** When Kirk Douglas appeared on British TV the young man interviewing him asked: "What's that piece of cloth in your lapel?"
Kirk smiled politely, and said, very quietly: "That piece of cloth is the Legion d'honneur."
If ever an interviewer should have been sacked.......

[Maggie]

"Interesting how differently same events are seen in different countries."

Monika says in Germany the First World War is almost insignificant compared to the Second. I suppose that is only to be expected, as the Second World War is overwhelming for Germans.

I think in most anglophone countries the First World War is remembered above all for the terrible loss of fine young men. A whole generation of the very best, their lives totally wasted. At least the military deaths in the Second World War seemed to count for something.

Then in anglophone countries the First World War has always been remembered because of the large volume of poetry from the war poets. Were there war poets in France or Germany?

I come from a village of 800 on the Canadian prairies. Our town lost 37 boys in the First World War, and 14 in the Second.

There are so many lakes up north in Manitoba (over 100,000, leftovers from the glaciers) that quite a few soldiers killed in the war got a lake named after them. The uncle of one of my best friends has a lake named for him, but I don't think they've ever been up to see it. There's probably no access except by air.

My dad often got called out to sit with a First World War vet, quite often on Christmas day. I never thought of it at the time, but I think it involved a lot of crying and terrible memories. He was an alcoholic (the vet) and was usually pretty drunk when he called for my dad.

Like Australia and its ANZAC commemorations, the successful Canadian assault on Vimy Ridge was one of the defining moments in Canadian history. This battle isn't even mentioned in most history books, but all the same, the Canadians took it after the British and French had been trying for over two years. The French lost 150,000 men trying to take Vimy Ridge. For Canada, Vimy Ridge was like a coming of age and marked the true ended of colonialism.

The Canadians did well in the First World War because they came from a frontier nation, with less class distinction between the officers and the men. They had a different approach.

In Canada I think (but am not sure) Remembrance Day is only a half-day holiday. I think the kids go to school in the morning especially to take part in some kind of memorial service, and then have the afternoon off. I think this is more meaningful than having a complete holiday where the significance of it is lost entirely.

I think in Canada school kids still memorize "In Flanders Fields".

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amidst the guns below...

When I first came to France I was a bit shocked to see that November 11th is celebrated as a victory parade down the Champs Elysée. In Canada it is strictly a solemn memorial service to show our respect for the vets and their comrades who never came home.

"They shall not grow old, as we who are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them."

"Le Chambre des Officiers" is an incredibly moving movie about the soldiers who had their faces smashed up by obues exploding near their trenches. There were thousands of them, with monstrously deformed faces, in France after the First World War, but I forget the term they used to refer to them. The nice thing about it was that, in spite of their faces, almost all of them got married and had families.

Here's a very short poem by AE Houseman:

HERE DEAD WE LIE

Here dead we lie because we did not choose
To live and shame the land from which we sprung.
Life, to be sure, is nothing much to lose;
But young men think it is, and we were young.

[Daniel Strohl]

Mr. JONES,

'It was not only reparations but a determined attempt through trade sanctions and so on to put Germany back in the Dark Ages.'

Yes, I know this also more or less, since I wrote "due among others to unreasonably high war reparations".

The French and probably the British too were so eager of revenge that they humiliated the Germans in an unwise way. And in the case of WWI, both antagonist parties share more or less the responsibility of the war outbreak.

MAGGIE,

"but I forget the term they used to refer to them"

It is "les Gueules Cassées".

PS : in the cemetery of Munster, a small town 20 kms from here, there are war tombs, mostly from WWI.
But there is also a common grave of seven Canadian air men killed on the 7.th January 1945. Their plane crashed in a mountain slope nearby (at that time, we didn't live in the region). One of my school comrades told me what happened - it was may be three years ago; I wasn't aware of the grave - however, at the entrance of the cemetery, there is a green plate with the inscription : Commonwealth War Graves (or Cemetery). There are many of them in France ...

If you desire so, I can find out for you more details as well as the names of the seven young men - they are engraved on a large horizontal white tombstone. I don't know if it is a cenotaph or if they are actually buried there.

[Francois D]

Maggie
"There were thousands of them, with monstrously deformed faces, in France after the First World War, but I forget the term they used to refer to them"

They were called " les gueules cassées". (the broken faces)

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gueules_cass%C3%A9es

Wars have always advanced medical technology. We must recognize that maxillary facial surgery and esthetic surgery have made significant progress during this period (and anaesthesiology)

[NN]

MAGGIE said 'but I forget the term they used to refer to them'
---
They called themselve 'les gueules cassées'.
'gueules' = mouths in slang
'cassées' = broken

[V]

(It was not only reparations but a determined attempt through trade sanctions and so on to put Germany back in the Dark Ages) R Jones

It was more than reparations and sanctions : Germany was treated as the originator and main aggressor in WW1, which is not exactly the case. This added righteousness to rancour.

[christopher muir]

This 1916 Verdun footage records the horror of the event. Mercifully it's short, but the ghostly images are powerful reminders of so many lives lost in wars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRpebtg7D4U

[Romain]

Like Richard Jones says ,the Versailles Treaty was excessively punitive and revengeful, it contained the ferment of WWII. It was a collective decision by the Société Des Nations.
I was quite moved when they played "Ich hatte einen kameraden" at Douaumont ceremony. My Austrian great grand mother tought it to my mother, and it was in my German schoolbook at French school.

Daniel,

Adolf was born on the Austro-German borderline which had moved several times in history. Borderline is the proper word regarding this creature.
My grandparents told me that they were laughing out loud when they watched Hitler's speeches from Pathé-Cinéma newsreel in the 30s. And then though...

[christopher muir]

My apologors. In my last post I recommended some 1916 film footage. I gave the wrong link due to a mix up in titles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKxhE9eY2uA

[Romain]

Charles,

For the record, the 8th of May bank holiday was cancelled by Giscard d'Estaing, and later reinstated by Mitterand.

[Pierre]

V
"Germany was treated as the originator and main aggressor in WW1, which is not exactly the case. "
Not exactly maybe but mainly surely.
The analyse that sees the Traité de Versailles (=France and Clemenceau's excessive desire of revenge and humiliation) as the main and direct cause of WW2 and Hitler's rise should be tempered. The krach of 1929 or later the lack of (french) reaction at the remilitarisation of the Ruhr (partially caused by understandable but blind pacifism) were turning points too.

Maggie
"When I first came to France I was a bit shocked to see that November 11th is celebrated as a victory parade down the Champs Elysée".

Surely it should'nt need to be reminded that France's specificity (with Belgium) is that the war was fought on its soil? Had Ottawa once been as threatened as Paris had been before the battle of the Marne, wouldn't the final "issue" have been celebrated too?
You mention In Flander's Fields. Some years ago, I had the chance to visit Ypers' remarkable museum dedicated to the memories of WW1. It kind of illustrated that the massive amount of sufferings leads to separate and unconnected memories betwin allies (since Mitterrand and Kohl things are different betwin former ennemies). Though the museum was at about half an hour drive form the frenh border it did not count, at that time, many fench visitors. And here, other example, except when the Australian rugby team comes for a tour and pays tribute to the soldiers the impact of the war on this country's memory.

[rocket]

Never forget the soldiers of this war to end all wars as they are truly heroes indeed.

It's time to offer an official pardon to those who deserted.

[Maggie]

Christopher Muir said, "My apologies. In my last post I recommended some 1916 film footage. I gave the wrong link due to a mix up in titles."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKxhE9eY2uA

Just beside this video posted by Christopher Muir, where it says "Related videos" is one showing les gueules cassées. You just have to scroll down a bit and it's entitled "Faces of World War 1 -- Ones who've seen the Horror".

I think the guy who made "La Chambre Des Officiers" was the grandson of one of these gueules cassées. I heard him on the radio describing how as a small boy he got into a fight with a classmate who had mocked his grandfather. He had known his grandfather that way since he was a tiny baby so did not find him shocking.

[Maggie]

"Wars have always advanced medical technology. We must recognize that maxillary facial surgery and esthetic surgery have made significant progress during this period (and anaesthesiology)" François D.

There was a French military surgeon a few centuries ago who made great advances in surgery. What was his name again? I heard a review of his life on the radio once; it was incredibly interesting.

Thank-you for the information on les gueules cassées.

Daniel, if you want to send me the names of those airman, I would be happy to see them. Around 1989 or so the uncle of one of my friends, along with the rest of his crew, was recovered from a crashed plane discovered in a field in the Netherlands. He was the only boy in the family (with four sisters). Quite a few of the neices and nephews went over to the Netherlands for the burial service. My friend's mother showed me all the write-ups on the story a few years ago when I was at home during the summer.

Daniel, I put a comment for you on the Vichy thread, in case you didn't see it (it's so far down now).

Here in Villeneuve Loubet my younger son discovered the grave where 14 German soldiers were buried after the liberation. He knew about it from talking with the old men in the village. After the liberation of the village these dead Germans were lying around in various places for a couple of days, until they dug a big pit for them in the woods. They were there for 62 years. My son finally discovered the site and got to help in the exhumation two years ago, and the bodies were re-buried in the military cemetary in Charentes-Maritmes.

Because of the dog-tags found in the grave they have manged to trace the families of some of these soldiers. The son of one of them came here this summer to see the burial site. He had been here in 1975 looking for traces of his father. Another of the soldiers was a Polish boy, a twin, who was killed the day before his 18th birthday. His family has sent my son several pictures of the twins when they were babies and growing up.

[sebastien]

ROMAIN:
["Like Richard Jones says ,the Versailles Treaty was excessively punitive and revengeful, it contained the ferment of WWII. It was a collective decision by the Société Des Nations"]
It was excessively punitive, certainly, but it was not a collective decision by the League of Nations. One of its clauses provided for the creation of the League of Nations.

DANIEL STROHL:
Hyperinflation was over by the end of 1923, and was followed by several years of relative economic prosperity as well as normalized relations between the former belligerents under the Locarno Treaties; it is surely not as important a factor in the rise of Hitler as it is sometimes made out to be. It did, however, reinforce Hitler's belief that Jews and economic liberals were responsible for a great many of Germany's woes, and that National Socialism was the only solution.

At the same time, the idea that Germany had been outrageously humiliated and unjustly penalized by the barely victorious Allies was a propaganda weapon Hitler exploited to the full, turning it into a kind of creation myth for the Nazi party. For Germans, the worst thing was not the painful but brief episode of hyperinflation, nor France's blundering and counter-productive occupation of the Ruhr, nor even trade sanctions, which were never applied against interwar Germany, despite unsuccessful requests from France in 1923 and again in 1936 when Hitler remilitarized the Rhineland. The greatest, most enduring resentment came from the territorial losses and forced demilitarization of the German nation, wrongs which Hitler swore to redress.

This was potent stuff in a country with no democratic tradition. But even so, would a less charismatic, messianic individual than Hitler have got so much mileage out of it? After all, territorial losses, demilitarization and the dismantling of great swathes of their industry were imposed on Germany and Japan after WW2, without the same consequences. The first time round, Germany got the Reparations Committee, Hitler and appeasement. The second time round, the Marshall Plan, Ludwig Erhard and the Cold War.

On the other hand, the Great Depression and consequent mass misery and unemployment did play a direct and significant part in Hitler's successful bid for power as of 1931. But that was an international phenomenon that can't really be attributed to revanchist reparations.

[Mauvezin]

>> Maggie
"There was a French military surgeon a few centuries ago who made great advances in surgery. What was his name again? I"
******************************
Dominique-Jean Larrey (7 juillet 1766, Beaudéan, Hautes-Pyrénées – 25 juillet 1842, Lyon)

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

Remember the Nazi propaganda film of the Capitalist with the Top hat,
sitting with the "workies" and reluctantly eating potato soup to show how Hitler's National Socialism makes them all equal? What a joke. Read the Nazi manifesto with its promise of paradise for the workers with shares in their factories etc. Hitler got to power with a huge confidence trick. Alfreid Krupp would never share with his workers (he hanged slave labourers in his factory yard, got 12 years jail forit). Share? Wolves don't share.
Do you think Hitler would have been elected if his manifesto had said the truth: "I am filled with hatered for our enemies. I will use our great fighting machine to occupy the whole of Europe first, and then attack communist Russia, and then America, but first I promise to murder every Jew, Gipsy, homosexual, catholic priest, journlist, communist, who opposes me.
With his last breath he was trying to send whole regiments of men to their death, to destroy cities like Paris, to force every German to die for the flag. If they had put their hands up, as they did in WW1, the Allies might accepted surrender, and not have committed the terrible devastation on Berlin, Dresden etc.
Hitler proved that you c a n fool all of the people all of the time. A week ago, in London, Captain Eric "Winkle" Brown, one of the world's great pilots, lectured Chelsea Pensioners on German jet planes (he flew them, plus 487 types of plane and made 5,107 deck landings and take-offs)in 1945. Hitler and von Braun almost had a rocket that could reach New York, and was plastering England with VI and VII rockets. However, Hitler refused, when it was suggested to him by his favourite woman pilot, to allow kamakazi pilots to be used towards against the Allies towards the end.

[Daniel Strohl]

MAGGIE,

I saw your post on the other thread. But it is truly complicated to follow everything in parallel. This is easier for ladies, since many of them are able to run their cerebral hemispheres in parallel, whereas a normal man like me is unable to do this :).

May be it is noteworthy to say that it is only two or three years ago that INTEL and AMD implemented true parallel computing with their "duo" chips :).

Seriously now : the next time we drive to Munster, I will pick up the names of the Canadian air men as well as their birthday dates which are also engraved on the tomb stone.
The graves in the military part of the cemetery are well maintained. So at least they have a decent rest there.

SEBASTIEN,

Thanks for your information. I obviously have mixed up a little bit the hyperinflation in Germany and the Great Depression.

However, the hyperinflation was a big shock and remained in German memories, in a similar manner as "l'emprunt russe" in French memories. Furthermore, during WWI, many Germans subscribed to war government loans and did probably not get much (true) money back. This is only a hypothesis - I have no precise information.

"But even so, would a less charismatic, messianic individual than Hitler have got so much mileage out of it?

In my opinion, no. He was a genius in matters of "manipulation de foules". And as everybody knows, there are not many geniuses :).

Hereafter a link to an interesting article of the "spiegel on line" describing the last months of the Reich in 1918. It is in German, but is accompanied by a lot of self-explaining photos (in colour). Included are a few reproductions of propaganda posters for war loans ("Anleihe") - also of one or two of the same on the allied side.

http://einestages.spiegel.de/external/ShowTopicAlbumBackground/a3131/l35/l0/F.html#featuredEntry

[Fernandez]

Americans mark their war dead on Memorial Day which was started after the Civil War.

Veterans Day (11 Nov) used to be Armistice Day and then was changed to Veterans Day to commemorate all veterans after WW2.

[sebastien]

Daniel Strohl,
L'article est fascinant : merci.

[Daniel Strohl]

SEBASTIEN,

Je suis heureux que l'article vous ait intéressé.

J'en ai deux autres "en stock", mais je crois qu'il est relativement facile de consulter en ligne les autres archives du Spiegel. Il y a eu dans le passé d'autres articles bien faits sur des sujets similaires par exemple la campagne de Russie vue du côté allemand ou la guerre sous-marine.

Voici les deux autres liens :

http://einestages.spiegel.de/external/ShowTopicAlbumBackground/a3119/l0/l0/F.html#featuredEntry (Reichskristallnacht)

http://einestages.spiegel.de/external/ShowTopicAlbumBackground/a3068/l0/l0/F.html#featuredEntry
(Révolte des marins allemands en octobre/novembre 1918)

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

The pilot who suggested kamikazi pilots to Hitler was Hannah Reitsch, banned from flying after the war (only gliders). She was an even more fanatical Nazi than Hitler. Strange thing, though, she went to work as a pilot for Nkrumah...must have been a colour-blind Nazi.
I had a German friend in Spain whose grandfather was a memberof the Party -- he saw a Gernman girl accept a bar of chocolate from a black American soldier, and went upstairs and hanged himself. Well as they say oop North: there's nowt so queer as Nazis.

[Blendi Progri]

[There was a French military surgeon a few centuries ago who made great advances in surgery. What was his name again?]

Maggie

There are quite a few notable French military and I don’t know what programme you may have heard, but based on great advances, what he did and achievements for his time there could be only one AP.
I’ll safely say that the greatest of ‘em all was Ambroise Pare, one of the founding fathers of modern surgery. A great anatomist and surgeon, Ambroise was one of the -1st to deal with gun shot wounds (wars in Italy) and do more than (up to that point limbs were either cut or wounds were ‘washed’ with boiling oil) ussual butchery, Pare was the first to use ligatures, dabbled in obstetrics a bit, and remains one of the real greats in medicine, with drawings, treatises, rudimentary plastic surgery and few other techniques, not to get too technical.

In case you are interested, also try to find something about a great character ( a Canadian doctor) Norman Bethune, extr. interesting life story, innovative person, treated battle wounds in Sp.Civil War, then went in China (where even today is fondly remembered) and is called (by those in the know) the doctor of three continents.
All today’s military medical units have originated from Bethyne’s ideas and so have few more other things regd. med.

Bethune was a very strange dude.
One day he goes to collect his shoes from the shoe-maker, he becomes fascinated by some kind of scissors that he was using to take small nails from the base of the shoe.

There and then he pays for the tool and runs to a company who produced medical instruments. To their surprise he puts in the table a ‘shoe-maker’s instrument’ dirty and strangely shaped. He does some drawings to improve it (N.B was a multi-talented man) and persuades them to make one prototype, it become the best at the time for cutting of ribs during thoracic operations. This great, self-sacrificing and high intelligent man died from a simple wound in his forefinger ( he cut it unintentionally during surgery) it was infected, became gangrenous and then…
-----------
================
As for the point of Petain and Vichy (to be continued...we said)I often thought that in a way Pettie wasn't that bad.

No one in Europe at a time was able to deal with the military might of Germany. ( W.C. speach was nice along the linnes of We'll fight them in the beaches etc...but if UK had a land frontiers these words may have been said from Casablanca or Filadelphia.) So France had no choice it had to surrender, and even it it didn't was practically occupied. That is something that doesn't upset us, what revolts folks today is the 'degree' of collaboration. The little mingers who went teh extra mile, at times when no one asked them or expted it to.

These people are the small time bureauocrats (I dont dislike only the teachers, BTW) who in peace time make peoples lives hell, in war the slip into criminality, gradually.
==============.

I have a point to make about the perception of the Jews durign the war, but it has to wait till tomorrow as I have to sleep tonight.

I just to take this opp to say g.night at few good looking pensioners we have in here:
G.night guys! :)

(though am a little dissapointed as no one from you told us how does it feel to be over 60 y/o in that OT, what to expect, is it nice, should I prepare in advance etc)

[Francois D]

MAGGIE

If one goes back in the centuries, I wonder if you do not think to Ambroise Pare, surgeon of several kings of France .

Hz is recognized as one of the fathers of modern surgery for several reasons.

- He was the first to show that vessel suturisation is better than cauterization by boiling oil or iron red,
- He performed the first member dislocation on the battlefield (I d'nt know if the patient survived)
- He discovered 'the asticothérapie' (worms therapy "to help to digest dead skin which is not a so bad idea, recently "re discovered)

He is almost famous because he tried to save King Henry II, Mary Stuart'husband, who was eye wounded during a tournament. He retired the arrow but the king died a few days later suffering atrociously (brain infection ?). Mary Stuart, 18 (or 22?) y, who was very much in love with her husband, was inconsolable and returned to Scotland and the sad fate that we know.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambroise_Par%C3%A9

Another military surgeon is important: Larrey, Napoleon's Surgeon (taking into account the work that N provides him)

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominique-Jean_Larrey

He was notably the precursors for an earliest possible support on the battle field (concept of mobiles ambulances)

14-18 for war, there is Dufourmentel who invented a process for the recovery of lower jaw and filled with bone.

If you are interested by the history of french surgery, and if you pass by Paris, visit the Musée d'Histoire de la Médecine (Rue de l'Ecole de Médecine, metro Odéon).

http://www.bium.univ-paris5.fr/musee/

[thomasine]

the remembrance of the two world wars seem to elicit the kindest and most generous posts on this blog. It should be made into a book for today's teenagers.

[Heinz Koenig]

Thomasine,
I couldn't agree more