Will France move into Belgium?

Watching the mess in Georgia, we should not get too smug about breakaway provinces on the fringe of central Asia. An ugly struggle for ethnic separation is brewing only an hour's train trip north from Paris.

I'm talking about Belgium. The divorce between northern Flanders and Wallonia, the southern French-speaking half, has been anticipated for so long that people in France do not give it much thought. "Are the Belgians mad?", France-Inter, a state radio station, asked its listeners in a jokey poll this month.

France takes a condescending, affectionate approach to its small neighbour. The butt of jokes, Belgians are seen as slow-witted frites (chips/French fries) eaters with a creative genius that produced Art Nouveau, Hergé, the father of Tintin, and entertainers who move to France when they make it. The latest of these is Cécile de France, one of the cinema's hottest young stars [picture below]. Otherwise, Belgium is Brussels, the French-speaking seat of the European bureacracy and source of many French ills.

This cosy view may be in for a jolt if the six million Dutch-speakers succeed in what seems like an unstoppable push to extract rich Flanders from its unhappy 178-year marriage to Wallonia.

France has just had a wake-up with an opinion poll that found that 49 percent of Walloons would like to be annexed by France if Flanders splits off. An extraordinary 60 percent of the French said that would be fine by them.

   

I suspect that they were not really thinking about the question, put by La Voix du Nord, the Lille newspaper, and Le Soir, the Brussels daily. Or perhaps they were succumbing to the present movie-driven fad for les Ch'tis, the inhabitants of the French far north.

Secession to France is a far-fetched idea and no French party supports it, although a Belgian group has been campaigning for years to be governed by Paris. Talk of shifting the frontier northward across half Belgium is pretty alarming when you think of the wars that have been fought over that patch of Europe. Among the odd consequences, France would take over Waterloo, the south Brussels suburb where Napoleon made his last stand.   

But Belgian break-up is not far-fetched and France might have to come to the aid of the Wallons in some form.

The Belgian government has been paralysed for a year. As Yves Leterme, the Flemish-born Prime Minister, runs daily business, three wise men have been appointed by King Albert II to find a formula that will probably unstitch further the already loose federal arrangement.

The two sides have never really got on since Britain cobbled the old southern Netherlands provinces together as a nation state in 1830 to ensure that France did not take it over again, as it did in the 1790s. In the late 1940s, when Wallonia was gripped by strikes, General de Gaulle told colleagues that he was ready to absorb the region if the Walloons begged for it.

The Flemish cause -- driven by resentment towards the once dominant but now poor French-speakers -- has been growing ever more radical. A decade ago, when I lived in Brussels for four years, the tensions were unpleasant. You got a dirty look if you addressed Flanders shop-keepers in French. My son took compulsory Dutch in his French-speaking primary school, but there was not much mixing between the two tribes. Belgian politics are so intricate, with an array of different assemblies, including a small German-speaking region, that few foreign journalists pay them much attention.

Now the linguistic, ethnic feud has deepened, with Dutch-speaking towns on the edge of Brussels even banning bilingual signs and, in one case, ordering French-speaking children to use only Dutch in a municipal playground.

The Flemish nationalists envisage a peaceful divorce of the type between Slovaks and Czechs. Apart from lingering fondness for the nation and the royal family that symbolises it, there is one big obstacle: the city of Brussel or Bruxelles, to use its twin name. A separate region, Brussels is a mainly French-speaking enclave inside Flanders (It is officially bilingual -- see the street sign). The Flemish cannot imagine Brussels not being part of the Nieuwe Republiek van Vlaanderen. One idea has been to make it a neutral European Federal District, like Washington DC, Mexico DF or Canberra ACT, but it's hard to see Flanders accepting that.

The Belgian malaise will probably just rumble on, but it is sobering to think that ethnically-driven separatism is at work in the heart of modern, rich, western Europe. It is not just something that comes with horses and carts and Russian tanks.

Below: Cécile de France, successful Belgian import.

 

Comments

[Daquan Quartermaine]

It's stunning to see that people are shocked by separatist movements when some 70% of the world's borders are purely artificial. There isn't a logical border in the whole of Africa! Belgium, too, is an artificial nation. A melting pot that would never have come into existence as a single entity had it not been for the intervention of powerful foreign states (from Spain in the 1500s to Britain in the 1900s).

We are at a stage in history where the world is recovering from colonialism and correcting its disfigured geographic legacy.

None of this should surprise anyone.

[I don't think anyone is surprised, unfortunately. But one can deplore the fact that people with different languages cannot live in the same space. Britain is far from a single nation too. Where do you stop going back to ancient tribal areas ? CB]

France is more civilized than Russia. At least it does not feel threatened by these "irresponsible, disruptive forces" on its borders. The "mad" Flemish "adventurers" are in luck: a French Putin would have bombed them to smithereens (or French fries)!

[Joan Arles]

Glad to see you back in France, Charles. Wallonia is a sad place, I always think. The Belgians have more in common with one-another than they often think. They only realise it when they get together outside their country -- like down here in the south of France, which they invade with their funny red license plates and caravans every summer.

[T. J. Cassidy]

Will Germany move into the Netherlands? Spain into Portgual? Morocco into Spain? The US into Canada? Australia into New Zealand? Iraq into Kuwait? Indonesia into East Timor? Malaysia into Singapore? The PRC into Taiwan? The Earth into the Moon? Italy into Europe? Turkey into Europe? Ireland into Northern Ireland? England into Ireland?

The list is really endless.

[colin grayson]

in recent years I notice that more and more people in northern france are conducting their daily lives in flemish , so how about a swop , a chunk of france becomes part of the new flemish republic , and wallonia part of france

brussels ? another lichtenstein perhaps , just rather bigger

but doesn't it suggest that the nation state is both too large and too small an entity , that a europe of regions would be far superior

take for example the rivalry between yorkshire and lancashire ...except , of course when they unite against the rest of the uk citizens !!

[Andreas]

Belgium was created in order to ensure peace in Europe. Little did it accomplish when you had two world wars afterwards. Therefore the role of Belgium is not only ineffective but also obsolete due to the EU. In addition Belgium is also a very disfunctional state. If a bunch Europeans in the heart of Europe didn't manage to form a government in a year then it should ring a bell or two that they would be better off seperated.

Wallonia should join France by making its current regions into French regions. On the other side of the border Flanders, including the Dutch founded city of Brussels, must form a new country eg. The New Republic of Flanders or a cofederation with the Netherlands which will boost the importance of both regions by forming a state of 22 million with an economy amongst the top 15 in terms of GDP PPP.

The region of Brussels is not really a problem. Walloonia won't need Brussels for a capital, it will have France. But since Brussels is surrounded by Flanders, 20% of its citizens are native Flemish/Dutch speakers and the Flemish won't give the land around Brussels until the Walloon border to the Walloons it should become the capital of Flanders. This at the same time will boost the importance of Dutch in the EU since it will be the (only official) language spoken at the capital of the EU.

[Terry]

WalLOONS? I knew it. The Loon problem is spreading throughout Europe.

Sounds like France is having a Flem problem. Perhaps, renaming Belgium Waffles to Freedom Waffles would send them a message.

[Sick of it]

...France is more civilized than Russia. At least it does not feel threatened by these "irresponsible, disruptive forces" on its borders. ...
If these forces get armed and trained against French and start killing French citizens, France will be thrilled considerably, I believe.
It's so easy to be brave and peaceful and "civilized" behind your Big Brother back.

[Helen]

Not surprised at all. I've visited Brussels 2 or 3 times, I've met Flemish people while holidaying around Europe, and I've always found Flemish ethnicals to be acutely Frenchophobes.

[Frank Upton]

A male Flemish intellectual and a Walloon man are sitting on a park bench, conversing in Flemish. They are joined by a Catholic priest and Father Christmas. One of them whistles at a young woman as she passes. Which is it?

It must have been the priest, because the other characters are imaginary.

[Espe]

España os conquistará a todos!

[Dominique]

No one ever raises the issue, but the 27 nations of the EU have a say. The new Flanders nation would not be part of the EU as the 27 nations of today would have to accept a 28th. I am sure that the remaining "Belgium" (Walloons), as a member state, would never let them in.

Are people of Flanders aware that emancipating from Belgium would make them emancipate from the european union as well?

[RJK]

The sovereignty of Belgium has to be preserved at all costs. They make the best beer and chocolate in the world. I'm afraid that if France annexes Belgium, the integrity of these brilliant exports will be put at risk. Send in the Marines....

[Ken Westmoreland]

England into Ireland? No, T.J Cassidy, because Ireland was part of the UK, but never part of England. Maybe England into Normandy (or perhaps the other way around) or Scotland into Berwick-upon-Tweed.

[Dave from Slough]

They could join the UK. They would have to learn English, which they do anyway, use pounds and drive on the left, which might be a problem. The EU capital could then move to the biggest city in the EU - London - and not only would our cuisine improve but the Belgians could benefit from our style, humour, pop music, and scepticism about the French, and learn some new sports like cricket, rugby and Olympic cycling. After all, we're already 4 countries - why not make it 6?

[Maggie]

"WalLOONS? I knew it. The Loon problem is spreading throughout Europe."

Congratulations, Terry! That was great!

[Emilie]

@ Colin Grayson: I'm a Ch'ti, and I grew up at the belgian border. Well I can assure you that none of my Ch'ti fellows would agree our region to be annexed by the Flemish. As I lived in Brussels a few years ago, I got schoked when hearing a Vlaams Block's leader (now called "Vlaams Belang") stating that its dreamed new republic of Flanders would include enventually southern regions of the Netherlands and a part of the Nord-Pas de Calais region where people used to be dutch speaking centuries ago and would have to speak dutch again, OR LEAVE ! I insist: no "nordiste" would accept to become flamish and to start speaking dutch instead of their french mother tongue! (as well, I'm not sure the Dutch would accept to form a great Vlanders Republic with the Flamish).
@ Andreas: As for Brussels, THERE IS a real problem as 70% of its belgian inhabitants are french speaking although it is surrounded by flemish towns. What do you propose? a refugee camp for those french speaking brusselers in Wallonie?
I can somehow understand the economical motivation of the rich flamish people to separate from the poor wallons, but I fear the extremist and racist motivations of the Vlaams Belang which suports the actual prime minister and is now seen in Flanders as a respectable party.
Anyway that's a pity, I love this country, its mixed cultures, the kindness and the great humor of the Belgians, and above all their beers!
Well it could have been a great multicultural experience... pity!

[Billdo Clownton]

The only thing flem has ever been good for, is hocking loogies!

[Vinod Joseph]

Trust me, a division will not solve the problem. The partition will leave behind festering wounds, especially in the Brussels region, which will not heal. Look at India and Pakistan. A partition in 1947, another in 1971 which created Bangladesh and both countries are still active enemies. Since Belgium belongs to the EU, maybe the parties could work out a system of autonomy for the Flemmish and Walloon areas and for Brussels without a full-fledged partition. . www.winnowed.blogspot.com

[Jakke Toeter]

How much fun it is to gossip about the marital problems of your next door neighbours!

Keep in mind, it's not because they have their fights on the lawn in front of their house that they will divorce.

In the end it's usually the gossipers that end up divorced.

Come to your senses guys, In Belgium there are issues, but I would like to ask, is the UNITED Kingdom so united!?

If you ask a Belgian about his nationality, He'll usually answer 'Belgian' but when asking this question to someone from the UK you get half a dozen different answers.

If you like gossip and bullshit I'd recommend you all keep watching Neighbours on TV instead of talking about politics you don't understand.

Cheers

[Andy]

Why do do you find the most intelligent Belgians at the bottom of swimming pools? Parce que au fond ils ne sont sont pas si bêtes.

This is all, of course, the problem of "Europe" and that European Parliament. What greater disincentive did anyone ever invent to encourage people to live alongside each other peacefully and intelligently within existing borders. No, let the Wallons and the Flems divorce into small independent states, let the Scots go it alone along with the Welsh, the Irish (both sorts), the Cornish, the Bretons, the Corsicans, the Basques etc etc and then they can all insult each other patriotically in that Mother of all Parliaments in Brussels (not forgetting the opportunity for away day slagging sessions in Strasbourg). Allez l'Europe!

[Rick]

HELEN notes that Flemish people can be Francophobic. Many years ago, I heard Canadians talking about their québécois compatriots in a manner nothing short of racist: unreliable, dirty, drunken, unkempt, dangerous, oh and ignorant – the usual stuff. The Swiss long since built their ‘Röstigraben’ to separate the ‘Schwyzertüütsch’ areas from ‘la Suisse romande’ or ‘Welschschweiz’. The edifice in question was a kind of Hadrian’s Wall or ‘Limes’ constructed with the waist-enhancing fried potato speciality of the area. Bless them, there’s some (albeit buttoned up!) self-irony here. Anyway, to get to the point, the Flemish are not the only ones…
I’m just an outsider looking in, but the suspicion is there that the Walloons fail to appreciate just how exasperated their compatriots are with them.
BTW, I wonder if anyone noticed the Bryan Appleyard book review in the most recent ‘Sunday Times’.
‘Road deaths are related to poverty - as people get richer they have more time to devote to not dying. But Belgium, mysteriously, has a much worse traffic-death rate than equally rich and apparently similar Holland. It is thought that this is because Belgium is more corrupt and corruption reduces respect for the law so driving behaviour deteriorates.’

[Jérôme]

"This at the same time will boost the importance of Dutch in the EU since it will be the (only official) language spoken at the capital of the EU."

Well what a nice idea indeed. A tiny problem on the way might be that an independent Flanders will have a hard time justifying non-compliance with the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages... For information it provides among other things (beware it might make some shiver with disgust):

"In respect of regional or minority languages, within the territories in which such languages are used and according to the situation of each language, the Parties shall base their policies, legislation and practice on the following objectives and principles:
- the recognition of the regional or minority languages as an expression of cultural wealth;
- the respect of the geographical area of each regional or minority language in order to ensure that existing or new administrative divisions do not constitute an obstacle to the promotion of the regional or minority language in question;
- the need for resolute action to promote regional or minority languages in order to safeguard them;
- the facilitation and/or encouragement of the use of regional or minority languages, in speech and writing, in public and private life;
- the maintenance and development of links, in the fields covered by this Charter, between groups using a regional or minority language and other groups in the State employing a language used in identical or similar form, as well as the establishment of cultural relations with other groups in the State using different languages;
- the provision of appropriate forms and means for the teaching and study of regional or minority languages at all appropriate stages;
- the provision of facilities enabling non-speakers of a regional or minority language living in the area where it is used to learn it if they so desire;
- the promotion of study and research on regional or minority languages at universities or equivalent institutions;
- the promotion of appropriate types of transnational exchanges, in the fields covered by this Charter, for regional or minority languages used in identical or similar form in two or more States"
The nightmare might even become more complete if you imagine that it could apply beyond the current Brussels region...

[John]

Finally an article about Belgium and the possibility of Wallonia (+ Brussels?) joining France. I've noticed some factually incorrect or half-correct information in Charles Bremner's article though.

CB wrote: "Or perhaps they were succumbing to the present movie-driven fad for les Ch'tis, the inhabitants of the French far north."

Actually, in a poll in November 2007, i.e. before the movie Bienvenue chez les Ch'tis, 54% of French people were already in favor of Wallonia joining France if Belgium breaks up. Source: http://bruxelles.blogs.liberation.fr/coulisses/2007/11/les-franais-en-.html

CB wrote: "Talk of shifting the frontier northward across half Belgium is pretty alarming when you think of the wars that have been fought over that patch of Europe."

In an editorial in September last year, The Economist said that Belgium had served its purpose, and that Flanders should become independent and Wallonia join France, if that's the desire of their inhabitants. So apparently the British establishment is not really alarmed. We're not in 1830 anymore. The Economist's editorial: http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9767681

CB wrote: "Britain cobbled the old southern Netherlands provinces together as a nation state in 1830"

Actually it is only a part of the southern Netherlands that has become Belgium. The other part of the southern Netherlands is now the Nord-Pas de Calais region of France, including the historical capital of Flanders, Lille.

CB wrote: "In the late 1940s, when Wallonia was gripped by strikes, General de Gaulle told colleagues that he was ready to absorb the region if the Walloons begged for it."

In the late 1940s, de Gaulle was already out of power, he was ostracized by the French political class, and he wasn't heard at all by the then leaders of the 4th Republic. You're probably mixing up different events and different dates here.

CB wrote: "Dutch-speaking towns on the edge of Brussels even banning bilingual signs"

These "Dutch-speaking" towns have 10 to 40% of their population which is French-speaking, so they are in fact mixed French and Dutch-speaking towns, even though officially they are unilingual Dutch. Banning French signs in mixed areas where French speakers make up 10 to 40% of the population, that's what is really mindboggling to many people in Wallonia and in France.

CB wrote: "The Flemish cannot imagine Brussels not being part of the Nieuwe Republiek van Vlaanderen."

That is not true. Only the extremist Vlaams Belang want to annex Brussels when Flanders becomes independent. Other nationalist Flemish parties accept the fact that Brussels is not part of Flanders. Some would like to keep the government offices of an independent Flanders inside Brussels, but none want to annex Brussels, except the Vlaams Belang.

CB wrote: "The Belgian malaise will probably just rumble on"

The day of reckoning is coming I think. This whole thing won't linger much longer. The NV-A won't allow it to linger for ever and ever. And among the francophones, what previously looked like unthinkable ideas (like joining France) have now gained popularity, including among senior Belgian francophone leaders (cf. Daniel Ducarme and his project for an autonomous "Belgique française" within the French Republic, see here: http://www.lesoir.be/actualite/belgique/daniel-ducarme-prepare-la-2008-07-10-615017.shtml ).

[Claire]

I will never be a part of France nor will I be a part of the new republic of flanders. I'm Belgian and that will stay like that. I am french speaking going to school in dutch and I don't have a problem with that. People don't look at me badly because I speak French and if they do I'll ask them what's wrong in Dutch. Brussels will never be separated. There are too many french and dutch speaking people living there. When you see that because a belgian horse won a golden medal at the Olympics the whole of Belgium is united again with proud. I am not behind the royal family who cost us a bomb and I'm not behind Yves Leterme either. He should be the one going to France singing the Marseillaise in stead of the Brabançonne. Because separatist and racists like Vlaams Belang become popular because of foreigners all of the sudden Belgium must be cut in two. It is ridiculous how blown out of proportion this is.

[Dodo]

John | 20 Aug 2008 19:15:20

So, according John we had 5 inacurate claims in this short Charles article.
...Charles ?

[Jorg Andersen]

Let me answer Dodo's query about John's complaint about CB's alleged innacuracy. It's pure nonsense. John's points are all matters of his opinion not facts. An exception might be the point about de Gaulle and Wallonia. Charles said late 1940s. De Gaulle was talking about 1946, when he was in power (check on French sites).that's late 1940s to me. As an Austrian, I work a lot in Brussels and CB's piece is spot on the Belgian nerve.

[Francois D]

Congratulations for this paper about Belgium. One feels that you have lived in Belgium for writing that .. It is complex ... (and there are not very much french journalist who could be able to write so).

It is true that the situation is worrying .. With all this mutual incomprehension.

It seems to me (point of view from a north french living not too far from Belgium) that the first mistake was to isolate both populations, probably by removing bilinguism at school and in political parties. They were unitied before and obliged to establish a compromise ("compromis à la Belge" as we say for a compromise very long to get).

Flemings say they have their revenge on the Walloons. Wallonia was rich when there was coal and heavy industries. It is less true now. This is exactly the same problem for Northern France (geology coal ignores frontiers ...).

It is certain that northern frenchs have more sympathy for Walloons. Historically the same origins and the same "patois", the same culinaries and social traditions (a great lot of marriages between). Both regions have also a common history of Spanish occupation still clearly visible by town architecture (the places ... and gabled houses).

"Rattachistes" have always been a small portion of the Walloon population (2% but more since some months) even if in Liége there are traditionnally some festivities for July 14. And we must not forget the heroism of the inhabitants of the city of Liege during the Great War with the aim of protecting the invasion of France (she was awarded with the Legion d'Honneur ...).

I do not think that European nations, notably France but also Spain and the UK, will accept Belgium's end, which might revive tensions in some regions (corsica, basques, even britons) opening the door to a yougoslavian situation.

The recent Nicolas Sarkozy's remark about Georgia ("it is normal that Russians defend the Russophones") was very reckless. I do not think he thought to Belgium; his GPS is directed to South. Another reason for him not to accept Walloons's integration is politic: Wallons are mainly Socialists and their number would be very bad for future presidential election (perhaps essential for the issue). With the wallons as electors he would not have been elected...
And then there's the King and almost Brussels. Brussel is the main problem... Very complex... But Brussels may not continue to breathe with suburbans local mayors so sectarians (see actual discussions about "Ring" and airport.

I often spend my holidays with Belgians, because I often take off from Brussel. Belgians are a lovely people, educated, very funny. I spent last one also with germanic belgians, far from these problems: their preference goes to Luxembourg.

I don't understand why they don' t try to live together like the Swiss who feel well between them, with three different languages since 1000 years, so well that they refuse to join EU ...

Do mountains calm, whereas flat landscape makes you crazy?

About flat country, I can not resist to think to Jacques Brel "le plat pays" (english subtitles), a very useful song when it rains...

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/plat%2Bpays%2Bbrel/video/x1bvzs_jacques-brel-le-plat-pays-english-s_music

With a sky so low....

One last word: it must be pointed out, what will happen, early September with the Gordel, (flemish family event around brussels, with bicycles, during a Sunday through exclusively flemish suburbans) very risky and a bit provocative, which could provide Northern Ireland remake.
I stop in order not to provoke controversy ..

PS 1) Emilie: OK with you.

2) CB: I discover by you that the actress Cecile De France is Belgian. Is she issued from an aristocratic family fleeing the French Revolution as a great lot, and refugees in Brussels (that would be the royal family with such a name). An alternative to Carla?

[pelle]

dave from slough
nice idea but doomed, at least with the Walloons. They're parochial and don't speak English.
Thimk of it as an island of mediterranean underachievement and backwardness transplanted to and surrounded by Europe's richest, most globalised and most progressive regions

[Dodo]

Jorg
"John's points are all matters of his opinion not facts."

Merci John for your message. You are right. We want FACT and not opinion.

Point number one : Charles said
"Or perhaps they were succumbing to the present movie-driven fad for les Ch'tis, the inhabitants of the French far north."
It is an Opinion or a fact ?
We want fact, it is not?
But it seems John gave a link for to support his point, Charles did not.

Ok for the number one ?

[Archie1954]

It's stunning to think that in this day and age and in a very liberal area of Europe these old rivalries are still existing. I do hope the the King as the major unifying force in Belgium can hold the country to gether.

[colin grayson]

does flanders have it's own flower ?

if not , being british , may I suggest the poppy ?

[Mary Fernandez]

You'd think you'd people would have better things to fight about! This sounds like 6-year olds in the back of the car screaming, "your touching me", "no, your touching me", "stop", "mine! mine! mine!" Petty, idiotic stuff.

If they redrew the boarders, they'd still be living together and within the EU, you don't need passports to cross them. Same money. Virtually the same laws. So what's the point?

[Mr. Skeptic]

Before the Dutch get too excited about annexing Flanders, they should have a look at automobile accident statistics: Belgian drivers are basically killers on wheels, they have zero driving skills.

[Blendi Progri]

The Belgium divide is complex and a little quirky for outsider and despite not showing itself with noise (as in other parts of the world) people have some deep seated resentment -as CB explains.

Few years back I had a guy from Belgium working in my house. Serious, well mannered, great builder all in all a good guy. One morning I made him a coffee and tried some French with him. His face changed so much that I thought either the coffee burned him or he is becoming very ill.

I don’t speak French he said!
I am from Flanders!
... and...and we have our own language.

Calm down sonny – I wanted to say- no one got hurt..Chill, but that would have been unwise, as antagonising a builder translates into delays, delays means a stressed out wife, and a stressed wife especially if is you the stress inducing factor- isnt good

So, I said, well…mate, if you'd told me you were Flemish I would have offered few dutch words, of course you have your own language, but you have to make it clear to people in advance that you arent a French speaking Belgian. Needless to say that we had few little comms after that, just business…he did a good job but I kept wondering, how does this guy go through life, how many people assume they ‘speak’ French or how many more would speak French to him, all that angst were does it come from.

Maybe sometimes it pays to revolt and forget the peace, keeping it all hidden make folks very upset, but as many know little about Belgium we pay little attention.
-------------
Small countries, big problems.
Eh, the trouble with the little guys. But hey, that’s family for you brothers break up take their share and spend their whole life wondering – if my bro was a little closer.

In a way Georgia’s attack could be interpreted as a cry for attention, just trying to put its lil hand inside the cage of Brother Bear, to their surprise the Bear wasn’t in the mood for cuddles.

Still Georgia has another ace up its sleeve, one more incy-wincy, tiny, mini Republic to go. When there are a full NATO Member, Marshall Saakashvili might try to restore some order there too.
----.
As for Belgium what can one say that is hasn’t been said before- often unfairly though- about these Peace-Loving, Warm and Artistic folks.
To be fair, they need to enjoy this friction, even if it develops in total divorce. Could it lead to a war? God only knows, it depends to Belgium’s friends too, Georgia has USA…but who does Belgium have to protect from imperialist ambitions of France…will CHINA help…Brazil..peru…seneg….?

I suspect that France has a big role in this…since the times of De Gaulle, earlier still, they have fanned separatists tendencies to their little brothers.
The best will be though if France- attacks Belgium- (for fun, or business it wont matter) Yep it can happen. France has a long time that hasn’t occupied a country (or half of any) so does it to see it hasn’t lost its touch.

We wake up one Morning and a sombre (tranquilised? ) Sarkozy talks to His People (that means- mainland France) and says:

‘ My fellow citizens, I decided (forced by circumstances) to invade 4/7 of Belgium, Our brothers (please forgive their accent) , people who speak French as better as we do (well, almost) have being suffering for such a long time. This is deep, too deep for a 2 hours TV address to explain. BUT. The fault (as always) lays with Britain, for more than 1+2/3 -ds of a century Two people who hate each other as much as Indians and Pakistanis, Greeks and Turks or as Sicilians and the Milanessi have been forced to live together! The mess they created ( The Brits) has now exploded in our hands.
And you know the British, they ‘cobbled’ together something that wasn’t natural only to p**s us off.

Come on- I say (in original he uses – gimme a break) is this the 1-st time the Brits did this?
Can we allow this suffering to continue?

Who of you hasn’t heard that even a provincial coffee house is forced, yes Forced, to display the menu in two languages. Only in Belgium. The audacity, the repression they have to put up with, as if our glorious language needs a chaperone. Belgium is our Cyprus and we will take it back…maybe some of it maybe all of it, let’s see how it goes.

God bless you and our little Belgium brothers and sisters. ‘
---

One thing comes from this affair, that any self-respecting Belgian may regret that with their little troubles they are causing major headaches to our Wise lawmakers and future shapers.
Instead of focusing on major matters, MEP gathered from major corners of EU and forced to survive on few 000 000’ of Euros, now have to think about Belgium too.

Belgium Breaking Up. Is EU shifting on its axis?

The best scenario would be this… France Invades, annihilates Belgium’s air force and send in the Tanks the world is outrages. Something msus be done.
Sergei comes to mediate, then Putin himself comes to arrange a peace deal.

That is fantasy of course, as it can’t happen.
Putin doesn’t have the time or inclination to mediate in everyday conflicts that happen in Western Europe. There’s nothing in it for Russia...gas? no. Oil…nyet. So why should he get involved.

Belgium Breaking UP. If it wasn’t this serious, it could be funny.
For the record I support the right of Belgians to live with whomever they please!

[first loon]

I have never met a LOON i didn't like -- WAL or otherwise.

btw, the international loon league is considering military inititiaves within belgium to protect the interests and well-being of all ethnic loons, including walloons. laugh now, because you won't be when you see a loon with a grenade-launcher.

this whole situation sounds like a clear-cut case of ethnic cleansing to me (and many other loons i have spoken with).

fortunately, the Hague isn't far away..

[for more on loons and moons and ferris wheels, the dizzy dancing way you feel, see post on last string]

Terry: #@&+ me

[s saines]

Makes Canada and Quebec look highly civilized in comparison. The Supreme Court of Can ruling on the matter, btw, took the EU situation as a legal precedent, and included it in the ruling (which allowed Quebec to leave with a suitable referendum, but allowing enclaves within Quebec to then do the same!

Perhaps Belgium could cite Cdn Law?

Btw:
[...Will Germany move into the Netherlands? ... The US into Canada?...]

Posted by: T. J. Cassidy | 20 Aug 2008 14:42:15]

Manifest Destiny is still on the books in the US! Plans were afoot as recently as the Forties for the US to move into Canada. Plans still exist for some contingencies.

Americans will deny it...so will the Russians on Ossetia.

[clem]

The French constitution does not allow any political 'devolution'. It would be against the republican of republican equality. It is very unlikely that the French would allow the Belgians to have some political autonomy, as they would have to concede it to the Basque Country and other folkloric curiosities. Therefore, if part of Belgium had to be annexed, the Belgians would have to accept centralisation.

[Mary Fernandez]

If the first loon is in Arizona and is an AZLOON and I'm in Washington, I must be a WALOON! And, I might be able to 'borrow' a tank.

I didn't realize I had such an interest in Belgium.

[nigel foster]

i understand that the American Ambassador has already approached Her Majesty with a view to their rejoining the Empire.

As a quid pro quo Wales would become part of Connecticut, which is fair enough.

[Horace]

Ahah... After Wallonia and the Flanders separate, is Brussels going to become the Brussels D.C. of the United States of Europe? I guess so.

[Ivan]

If the Nieuwe Republiek van Vlaanderen wins the Anheuser-Busch versus InBev lawsuit then Cindy will tell her husband to nuke you. Countries just don't split up in the 21th century.

[Julie]

Living in Brussels~ I find almost all of the Flemish able to speak Dutch, French, English and German.

If I go into Wallonia, 95% of the people I come in contact with can only speak French. In a country that has more than one national language..(regardless of the issue on wealth and the resentment of the north subsidizing the south)... everyone in that country should be able to converse with one another. I went to a Brussels ER in the middle of the night.. no one was able to communicate in Dutch. Shouldn't this tell us something? It is one thing for the Belgian vegetable seller to speak one language. It is entirely different when for emergency services to speak in only one of the national languages.

There seems to be a lot of finger pointing and such...but as a resident here I can tell you that the resentment is only growing and I can understand why.

[Dodo]

"It is very unlikely that the French would allow the Belgians to have some political autonomy,"

CLEM, I don't know. There is allway exceptions to any rules.
Remember that we have DOM TOM ( Départements/territoires d'Outre mer)

Rememeber that we have : Monaco
Remember Andore.

Remember that main part of french territory is under the Laicity, but Alsace under the Concordat !

If - I say IF - Walloons want to separate and IF they want to be close to France, our dear politician will find an agreement with more or less autonomy.

However, according the friends I have in Charleroi, it will happen only if the Flanders decide to end with Belgium.

[Keith S]

It only makes sense that countries want to put aside their colonial pasts, and redraw their boundaries on rational lines.

The big question is "What is required to separate a region from a country?"

- Would it be a referendum?

- Would the referendum take place country-wide or just in the region separating? (If they are separating from us, aren't we also separating from them?)

- Separation is a constitutional change. Would it require a 50% plus one majority or a 2/3 majority of votes to pass?

- Would it also require a vote in country's parliament?

- What if parts of the province separating want to remain with the original country?

- How would the countries debt be split?

There should be international guidelines on the whole issue of separating and reconstituting countries.

This would be much better than each country making up the rules as it went along.

[FrogSnail]

Im french ad i dont believe that french from north want to be flemmich.
And flemmich dont hate french, but wallons because they have been stronger during a long time and they abuse. they considerated flemmeich people as under-be
And flemmich hate people form netherland.
And i dont think that french hate netherland. I dont know what is the feeling of peopel from netherland.

I agree to welcome wallons. France is the biggest country of europe and there is many differencies between people from the north to the southe, the east to the west so wallons can be easily integrate. ...but i think its very to early to speak about it and belgium is still a country and not a toy.

[Maggie]

"The French constitution does not allow any political 'devolution'. It would be against the [idea] of republican equality. It is very unlikely that the French would allow the Belgians to have some political autonomy.....the Belgians would have to accept centralisation." (Clem)

And these people (the French) are the ones who feel they need to rescue poor Quebec ("Vive le Quebec libre"), which has its own language laws, legal system, education system etc, from the dastardly Canada. Stunning, isn't it. The Waloons would be better off joining Canada than France.

And Blendi is right when he says " I suspect that France has a big role in this… since the times of De Gaulle, earlier still, they have fanned separatists tendencies to their little brothers." My book, "The Gaullist Attack on Canada 1967 - 1997" gives examples of France encouraging separatism in Belgium as well as in Canada.

[FrogSnail]

And the probleme is that if you let a part of a country to be independant many people from others countries in europe are going to re-cry out theyre independance: cataluna, galicia, bretagne, pays basque/pais basco, corse, flandre française, alsace, savoie, scotland and wales (from uk), nothern part of italia, sicilia...

And for a "country" like UK wich have people that dont considerate they are brits (scottland...)it would be a problem. The pb for a country like France is that it is in the centre of the eastern europe and so lined by many countries wich are very differenst: italia, deutchland, belgium, spain - so people near from the fronters - this is a human reflexe - can easily considerate them as the neighbour.

[Romain]

I guess Condee and friends will have to install a missile shield both sides. No French politician will move an inch on that dispute.

[Mike Ryan]

And anglosaxons back to Germany !
They are recent arrivals in Britain,
coming in 500 A.D.