Sarkozy bungles Beijing game

As Nicolas Sarkozy flies to the Olympics opening, he is being hammered in France for flip-flop behaviour that has let Beijing humilitate him.

China has got Sarkozy's number, le Monde said this afternoon. "He has lost on all fronts: whether human rights or the international image of France or its relations with the Chinese authorities."

Sarko's unfortunate Chinese gambit began in the spring when, under domestic pressure, he threatened to boycott the Olympics opening ceremony unless Beijing resumed dialogue with the Dalai Lama. Other leaders voiced criticism over Tibet and human rights, but none made the Olympics link. Britain's Gordon Brown and Angela Merkel of Germany was never planning to go to the opening. 

The Chinese were also upset by the very rough passage of the Olympic torch through Paris and French establishment sympathy for the protestors. China retaliated with an anti-French boycott. Then Sarko sent three emissaries to Beijing to apologize and announced that he would go to the Beijing ceremony in his capacity as current president of the European Union. But, he said, he would meet the Dalai Lama in Paris on his return.

Beijing then took the extraordinary step of having its Paris ambassador publicly warn Sarkozy that there would be serious consequences if he did any such thing. The ambassador -- a graduate of the ENA, the French high civil service school --  was hauled into the French Foreign Ministry and reprimanded for interfering in French affairs. Sarko himself told the European parliament that Beijing could not push him around and would never dictate his diary.

On Wednesday, before leaving for China,  Sarko caved in and called off the meeting with the Tibetan spiritual leader. Carla Bruni -- Mrs Sarkozy -- will instead meet him at a Buddhist ceremony in the south of France in late August.

Sarkozy says that the meeting was postponed by agreement with the Dalai Lama in order to avoid raising tension with Beijing at a delicate time. His office has announced today that he has transmitted to the Chinese authorities a list of dissidents about whom French campaigners are concerned. At the same time, he has given an interview to Chinese media in which he celebrates "the historic, indestructible, unshakable friendship" between Paris and Beijing. 

Super Sarko has come out of this episode looking foolish. Brown and Merkel have both held talks with the Dalai Lama and spoken out on rights in recent months and neither are attending the opening, but Beijing did not punish them. Sarkozy showed weakness by blowing hot and cold. "It would have been better to have refrained from puffing up his chest for a few weeks before travelling to Canossa," said le Monde.  In China, anti-French bloggers are jeering at Sarko, calling him a "paper tiger".

Pierre Haski, Editor of the Rue89 news site, calls it "the most serious diplomatic failure by Sarkozy since his election."  Those are views from Sarko's usual critics, but few outside his own political camp are defending his bungled China venture. A French diplomat friend summed it up to me as "Beijing 1, Sarkozy 0".

Comments

[Julio]

Just wait till the Games are over and the wrath of the chinese govt toward everything french will be massive ...

I don't think the few promises of contract by Gaddaffi and Assad will make up for the billions that will be lost.

Another total success by our fantastic diplomatic corps.

Well done Lads !

[dot king]

"The Chinese were also upset by the very rough passage of the Olympic torch through Paris" (article)

It would seem, according to a discussion I heard on "C dans l'air" about a week ago, that the person who attacked the Chinese girl in the wheelchair, or at least tried to wrest the Olympic torch from her grasp, wasn't even French. I think they said it was a US citizen (sous réserve), not French anyway. And most probably a "professional" demonstrator.

The way they put things on Inter this morning was that Sarkozy would spend 12 hours in Beijing, just enough time to exchange greetings with his Chinese counterpart, see the opening ceremony of the JO, then presidential jet back home to Carla and the luxury holiday villa.

I just have the impression that Mr President Sarkozy has a very short attention-span and is still in act-react mode, a bit like a clockwork mouse or a ball in a pinball machine.
No doubt we shall see him sending text messages from his lodge in the Olympic stadium.

[qwerty]

Why are the French so unlucky? First it's freedom fries in the US, now the Chinese hate them even though the turbulent procession of the Olympic flame through Paris was hardly worse than in London. Gordon Brown can meet with the Dalai Lama; if Sarkozy does, France loses contracts in China. By the way, what is the extent of British and German commercial interests in China compared to France's?

[edoardo chioni]

french president is a puppet in control of the other part of his damaged brain.

[Dodo]

"Why are the French so unlucky? ...First it's freedom fries in the US, now the Chinese hate them"
by qwerty

Absolument lamentable, cher CB, que vous laissiez passer de telles attaques perfides !

Lors des tragiques évênements qui ont salué votre victoire pour les JO de 2012 je ne me suis pas moqué que vous soyez "unlucky" ce jour là.
Les Français de ce forum ne se gaussent pas de vos difficultés Outre Manche. Nous comprenons vos problèmes et nous n'en rions pas parceque les votres peuvent être les notres, les notres les votres.
J'aime le ton amusé de vos articles, je ri de vos critiques, parceque je sais que vous riez aussi de vos défauts.
Mais allors à trop les laisser devenir une tribune xénophobe, irrespectueuse et nationaliste, vous risquez de sombrer là où vous ne désirez pas.

Attention DANGER !

(point taken, Dodo. It's difficult to know when to call a halt. I try not to censor too much, so some borderline thinking gets through. CB)

[dot king]

DODO: I'd thought QWERTY was being ironic, not anti-French, in fact rather pro-French, in sympathy. Not even "border-line thinking". Humour in over-statement, exaggeration.
Your reaction is OTT, IMO.

[Dodo]

Dear Dot King :
That's the problem of the so called "ironic Humor": Better to avoid it when you can offend someone.
Remember Martin Bashir....

Indeed qwerty he did not used smiley, it is not ?

However it is not my intention to insist on this very topic. Can we go ahead ?

[rocket]

"Why are the French so unlucky? ...First it's freedom fries in the US, now the Chinese hate them"
by qwerty

Why is this borderline?

This is not a question of unlucky or lucky but a question of diplomacy. Si l'on pense que c'est cool d'être gueulard il faut rester hors de la domaine de diplomatie, surtout pour la 4 eme puissance économique.

I'm sure that the CEOs of Areva and Airbus were sending textos to Sarkozy to cool it a bit.

I think it's a very good point that needs to be taken up. Other countries manifested their intention to not take part in the Iraq war but never received the treatment that the French got in the US (or were said to have gotten) and which still continues in a somewhat diminished albeit permanent form.

The reason is because France decided to beat the drum against US military action and then continued by giving lessons when the war effort in Iraq got bogged down. Kinda like ha ha ha told you so! Schoolyard stuff! In fact it was Sarkozy who made the first step at rapprochement between France and the US. (Honorable IMHO)

(Let's see how these Rwanda accusations pan out.)

Now unfortunately we have M Sarkozy engaging in the same knee jerk emotionally driven foreign diplomacy reaction as his predecessors.

First he insulted the entire Chinese population by creating an atmosphere of shame which is a major faux pas in Asian cultures by demanding that China engage in discussions with the Dalai before he made his decision to attend the opening ceremonies. He created a situation where someone had to back down. (Well it was him in the end) Then he added insult to injury by saying that Beijing doesn't dictate his agenda. And to top it off, he made a complete about face confirming his attendance and then "reinsulted" the Chinese by staying for a total of less than 12 hours. (He's a very busy man don't forget)

Unfortunately French foreign policy has always been dictated by a subsequent destructive and "inutile" "pique" when France does not agree to something. In other words as the press refers to it as lesson giving. Much the same as the average person encounters in daily life in France

Other leaders decided not to go to Beijing and that was the end of that. There was no need for additional commentary.

Diplomacy is exactly that. Diplomacy! Whether we as individuals agree on the soft fluff language of diplomacy or not, that is how the game is played. Not by bulldozing. Foreign relations are not the same as impressing some woman through "vantardise" It would be wise to finally heed this in order that countries don't continue to turn on France to the degree as we have seen in the past.

Cooling the rhetoric about the land of Human rights might help a bit also.

Of course Dodo with super sensitivity (not surprisingly) only sees the negative side of QWERTY's comments and speaks of banning the comments (hélas once again one of our Gallic friends wants things stricken from the record when they are upsetting and do not please them)whereas QWERTY's comments are in fact very valid and timely.

[rocket]

Dot

I think they said it was a US citizen (sous réserve), not French anyway. And most probably a "professional" demonstrator.

I also heard this.

The point is that we Americans are certainly not beyond blame but the whole affair has been associated with Paris and that is what is difficult to get out of people's minds. In other words, where was security to prevent this kind of thing? So in fact it could have been a Martian who attacked the poor girl. That is not the memory that remains in most people's minds. It's the backdrop of the Tour Eiffel.

PS - I think this guy was planted by the American government to get more contracts for Boeing.(LOL)

[rocket]

QWERTY

By the way, what is the extent of British and German commercial interests in China compared to France's?

I know that Germany's is much larger.

Here's an interesting read on Russia, Germany and France trade

http://tinyurl.com/5oo25a

[Mary Fernandez]

I don't think QWERTY was being anti-French. I think he (she?) asked an interesting question - Why, when the protestors' behavior in London, was almost as bad, do the Chinese single out France for retribution?

(Although, only in France do bad French protestors get blamed on America!)

I seem to remember Charles remarking in his blog that the French police weren't their usual martial selves with regard to the protestors that day.

[christopher muir]

Do not fear going forward, fear only to stand still. That's a Chinese proverb that Sarko appears to have taken to heart.

[azloon]

[Mais allors à trop les laisser devenir une tribune xénophobe, irrespectueuse et nationaliste, vous risquez de sombrer là où vous ne désirez pas.] Dodo

ATTENTION !!

DANGER: THIS BLOG MAY BE HAZARDOUS TO THE MENTAL HEALTH OF THE FRENCH FAINT-OF-HEART (est-ce que vous, Dodo?)

most of this stuff is all in good fun, but maybe sometimes not the sort of fun that interests the french mind. so it may take some getting used to.

we do, however, welcome your return salvos.

and remember, NO SNIVELING!!

:)

[qwerty]

thanks Dot and Mary, I was OBVIOUSLY being ironic. And Rocket got it right as well: "Other countries manifested their intention to not take part in the Iraq war but never received the treatment that the French got in the US (or were said to have gotten) and which still continues".

I was merely pointing out how unfair it is that the French get punished for their stances and not other nations. As to commercial contracts in China: correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the UK and Germany are pretty well established in China, that France still has to make a break-through, and that France is more vulnerable and susceptible to attacks from Chinese officials due to this.

[Ros]

Charles says "Brown and Merkel have both held talks with the Dalai Lama and spoken out on rights in recent months and neither are attending the opening,", maybe, but have just heard on the BBC's "Today" programme that Brown is going to the CLOSING ceremony - I maybe British but I still think this is somewhat hypocritical - one could mention "perfide albion" - While verifying the spelling of "albion", I fell by chance on this article where Charles is quoted at length but no time to read it now - http://lecharenconlibere.20minutes-blogs.fr/archive/2007/11/23/bremner.html .

[thanks, Ros. In fact Brown is more or less obliged to go to the closing because London is hosting the next Olympics. It's the tradition ... CB]

[Ros]

And if anyone scrolls down far enough in the link I just posted, they'll see that someone (unamed) calls Charles "darling"! "Et puis, vous savez quoi, darling ?" just under Margaret Thatcher's picture ---

[Rick]

Sarko has looked foolish before and no doubt he will look foolish again; and yet, in a curious kind of alchemy he gets things done. More disturbing to my mind is the breathtaking cynicism shown by the French government when it comes to less amusing matters, matters in which other politicians behaved every bit as foolishly as monsieur Bruni. I think of the Taiwanese frigates affair and the Rwandan genocide.

The first of these is strangely similar to Sarko’s present imbroglio that you write about, Charles. The bribes seem to have been paid not by the manufacturer but from murky Elf (government) sources; this, so that politicians could tell the People’s Republic they were in the dark about what they themselves had instigated. The ploy – too damn clever by half – has ‘énarque’ written all over it. Sarko could never aspire to such heights of foolishness.

Irresponsible, unwarranted involvement in Rwandan affairs has left an indelible stain on France’s reputation. It’s not enough to get an obedient judiciary to indulge in ‘revisionary’ re-writing of history. This piece of foolishness - and evil - was of an altogether different dimension to anything Nick could do. The French should thank God that their Pres is called Sarko and not Mitterand.

[dot king]

ROS, I think the "dear Charles" and the "darling" are IRONIC - Dodo are you out there? Even the French do it. And to our dear Charles, what's more . . .

PS QWERTY didn't put a smiley because she thought her comment was OBVIOUSLY ironic.
Should we now only post things that are completely devoid of humour or a sense of fun?

[Marguerite.]

J'aime bien la phrase de Francois Hollande : "Sarkozy, medaille d'or de l'hypocrisie."

[Julio]

Rick :"...he gets things done."
What exactly has he accomplished in his first year ?
Le service minimum ? (defense de rire)

And no the french won't thank God , that's not how it's done in France.
God didn't choose Sarkozy ,the french voters did.

Just like I don't thank God because the traffic is OK in the morning or because my team won last saturday ...

[Mauvezin]

not anti-French, in fact rather pro-French, in sympathy
**********
In other words "Schadenfreude"

[qwerty]

Rick: What do I risk if I tell you that one of the beneficiaries of Elf's murky dealings was Mitterrand and that there's a stack of dough sitting on a Swiss bank account? This is what I was told by a lawyer close to Elf protagonists. Could be true; however on other occasions said lawyer has proved himself to be a compulsive liar. Who knows. Do not forget, in any event, that Elf was always the "bras armé" (or the financial arm) of the French Secret Service.

It makes me mad that affairs like the Frégates are just buried for raison d'état. If some journalist was courageous enough...but I believe there have already been 3 unexplained deaths in this matter (one, a guy who "fell" from a window of a building in rue Jean Goujon).

Re Sarkozy and Julio's post: read the Economist's assessment of Sarkozy's reforms to date. I agree of course taht in the Chinese Olympics he has been disastrous with his two steps forward, one step back - what's jean-david Levitte doing???

[Rick]

I'm sorry, Julio, but you seem to have missed the point: Sarko is a blessed relief after his predecessors.

In my country, we say 'thank God' when showing that special gratitude is called for.

'Le service minimum' has been a modest success. You should get out more and ask people what they really think.

Finally, one hopes that all correspondents have noted Linda Melvern's piece on Rwanda elsewhere in Charles' excellent newspaper.If only the French public were aware of the criminal behaviour carried out by their representatives!

[Julio]

QWERTY : Fair enough assessment from the economist

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11792306&CFID=16685691&CFTOKEN=18021602

The 35 hour "issue" was one decret from being "solved" ,and instead a brand new "usine à gaz" was thoughtout and -sort of- implemented.

Hardly a ground breaking reform in my book.

ps : I think you're thinking of Thierry Imbot.
How infortunate his death was !

[dot king]

"In other words "Schadenfreude"

Schadenfreude? not really . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude

[qwerty]

Rick, Le Monde establishes a direct link to the Rwanda article in The Times, which is very fair play of them. Because otherwise there's not much noise on French media, it seems to me, about the Rwanda allegations.

[Ros]

DOT: Yes, of course, you're right about the irony -
I tried to read all the "réactions" from Figaro readers but gave up before the end. However, this is worth a glimpse -
"25/11/2007 00:52
Jquinn : anglo-saxon
Pour quoi est-ce que même le Figaro désigne à un journaliste américain un « Anglo-Saxon » ? Toute personne qui bien connaît les Etats-Unis sait que l'identité anglo-saxonne n'existe pas en ce pays. En plus, le nom Bremmer, n'est-il pas allemand ?" - Perhaps Charles should complain but maybe the Figaro doesn't moderate?

[Rick]

Thank you QWERTY. I'm heartened by what you say about Le Monde. Is it just me, or are the French rather, how shall we say, 'cut off' from the world?

As I understand matters, Julio, Sarko has done even better than abolish the 35-hour week: 'il l'a contournée'. No fight, no nastiness. Do his opponents even realise he made monkeys of them?

[dot king]

"Rwanda . . . If only the French public were aware of the criminal behaviour carried out by their representatives!"
RICK

"Because otherwise there's not much noise on French media, it seems to me, about the Rwanda allegations."
QWERTY

Some time ago, lots of coverage of the massacres in Rwanda, on France Inter, a whole week of "Là-bas si j'y suis" was dedicated to the subject and around the same time I saw an excellent, well researched, and pretty accusatory documentary on Fr2 or maybe Fr3 which pulled no punches.
It's also been covered by Mr X in "Rendez-vous avec X" on Inter, Saturday lunchtimes.

[Daniel Strohl]

Nous avons regardé le début de la cérémonie d'ouverture des JO sur France 2, station dite de "Service Public". Ensuite, nous avons commuté sur la télévision suisse TSR.

En ce qui concerne la cérémonie d'ouverture, compliments à nos amis chinois : tout était parfaitement organisé et synchronisé et, pour tout dire, très beau.

Par contre, je ne ferai pas de compliments au journaliste de France 2 (M.Bilalian) qui après avoir dit au début de l'émission que les commentaires seraient réduits au minimum pour ne pas ennuyer les téléspectateurs (louable intention) s'est cru obligé de faire des commentaires ou allusions d'ordre politique - style "droits de l'homme" - à son invité, M.Wang, conseiller de l'ambassade de Chine, et qui soit dit en passant parle un français absolument parfait et sans aucun accent. En résumé, M. Wang est cultivé, lui!

M. Bilalian aurait mieux fait de se modérer et de laisser parler son invité de la Chine et de sa culture, ce qui était le thème de la cérémonie, au lieu d'indisposer son invité et les téléspectateurs avec des questions déplacées et hors sujet.

Ce qui fait qu'au bout d'une vingtaine de minutes, excédés, nous avons commuté sur TSR dont les reporters font leur travail sans y mêler de la politique.

Summary of the above :

We watched the opening ceremony of the OG first on French A2 TV, then we switched on Swiss TV since we were exasperated by the political allusions made by the A2 reporter to his Chinese guest.

[dot king]

"The 35 hour "issue" was one decret from being "solved""
Julio

How about the survey very recently published that shows the French as working on average a 41-hour week?

[Rick]

Thank you Dot King for making my point for me. What you describe falls far short of an adequate reaction on the part of journalists or public opinion. And they call the English hypocrites.

[Michel R, London]

I am very ashamed of Sarkozy's handling of the relation with China which I think is a terrible blow to the reputation of France and its influence on the international stage, probably as bad as the Suez crisis.

But even though it hurts to see France diminished like this, I do understand Qwerty's comment and don't think it should have been censored. He was not being overly nationalistic, more into the kind of shadenfreude our British friends love to cultivate about their French neighbours. Fair enough. He also had a good point and I also asked myself: why us?! The flame was put out first in Athens, protests were as virulent in London and San Fran than in Paris, and they choose to boycott FRENCH products and companies only?

Of course, the Americans are a country difficult to boycott, as they have a huge business presence and just cannot be ignored. But the British?!! It's not like if they had absolutely indispensable goods like German machine tools.

France seems to provoke a particular kind of annoyance in big, powerful nations, that can't only be explained by French leaders' supposed arrogance. Someone mentionned an "I-told-you-so" sort of attitude among French officials after the War in Iraq: this, I'm sorry, remains to be proven. On the contrary, I felt like the French were quite careful not to look too smug on that matter, I remember reading an article in TIME magazine poiting that as well.

Anyway, thank you Mr Bremner for this article which, though painful, does not fall into the easy trap of traditional "joie maligne".

[Daniel Strohl]

Dot,

"the French as working on average a 41-hour week?"

It is an average drawn upwards to 41 hours a week by the farmers who work 59 hours, the craftsmen who work 54 hours, the cadres etc. - I do not remember the exact numbers. The quoted average of 41 h supposes that many people work actually 35 hours or less ...

The aim of the new law is not to force people to work more than 35 hours a week, but to allow them to work more hours if they want (and, of course, if their boss has enough work available for
them :)).

The aim of the old law was to force entrepreneurs to hire more people to compensate for the imposed reduction in work time from 39 to 35 hours. But in industry as well as in agriculture, the same principle applies : "On ne peut pas forcer à boire un âne s'il n'a pas soif". Therefore, the 35 hours was a big and costly mess.

However, I do not deny that the intention was good; but there is another saying : "l"enfer est pavé de bonnes intentions" :))

[Francois D]

Yes, with Sarkozy "diplomacy" we seem to be in an amateurism and impulsive register (sorry for BK) far from Chirac and almost D de Villepin, a true "pro". Remember DDV speech to the UN, so criticized and yet which would have avoided many tears and deaths.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xw0qg_saddam-villepin-discours-onu_news

I dare not imagine what would have been France's position with Sarko in these conditions.

[azloon]

[The flame was put out first in Athens, protests were as virulent in London and San Fran than in Paris, and they choose to boycott FRENCH products and companies only?] Michael R.

Michael, you seem to ignore the fact that the paris protest featured prominently an attempt to snatch the torch from a chinese woman in a wheelchair (for godssake!!) apparently the french rioters are so blase about street chaos (a national pastime) that no one gave this thuggish gesture a single thought.

but the chinese didn't ignore this. no, no, no. the young woman is now a national hero. but you gotta hand it to the french: when they protest, they do it with panache -- in this instance, by attacking a diminutive, female parapalegic.

btw, sarko's waffling about his attendance at the opening ceremonies didn't show him favorably. he could even have learned a little from Dubya (not having a whole lot to teach any of us) who from the outset expressed his intention to attend, out of respect for china and the u.s. athletes, but then said repeatedly, most recently yesterday in thailand, that he continues to have serious issues with the chinese human rights record.

so, it is possible to simultaneously be respectful and critical. but such a stance requires a calm conviction that doesn't seem to be a part of sarko's nature. he chose instead to go the route of the knee-jerk, futile, hissy fit which he ended up having to back away from.

[qwerty]

Michel R: the French were incredibly virtuous in NOT saying "I told you so" when they were perfectly entitled to do so, and also when they were weathering the US and British media calling Chirac a worm, the pouring of grands crus down the gutter, and the world at large vulgarly insulting them. The French showed class and stoicism.

So I sometimes said "we told you so" on their behalf. And now France is singled out again by the Chinese for special treatment...

[rocket]

François D

Yes, with Sarkozy "diplomacy" we seem to be in an amateurism and impulsive register (sorry for BK) far from Chirac....

ROTFLMAO

Yeh right! Chirac diplomacy to Eastern Europe

"Ils ont manqué une bonne occasion de se taire!

Very professional !

As far as de villepin.

Was that France's finest hour? Can you get over it? Or is it like World Cup 98. Something you will speak about for the next century?

PS - Daniel- I watched a bit of the opening ceremony yesterday on France 2 and I also felt that the journalists wouldn't shut up about the Human rights issue.

[Daniel Strohl]

Rocket,

I am conforted by the fact that you had the same impression. You speak from time to time of the French arrogance - this was a perfect example indeed (sometimes, your other examples are not so good or pertinent :))

For our fellow bloggers : I forgot to say that Bilalian is the boss of the Service des Sports of A2; therefore, in my opinion, he is not qualified in politics and his "culture générale" seems not to be overwhelming too. I was really angry and ashamed - my wife too.

Everybody is free to have political or philosophical opinions; but if one works in the "Service Public", one should have the decency (and the intelligence) to keep them private.

[dot king]

"Thank you Dot King for making my point for me." RICK

Well, thank you Rick, but that wasn't my intention. I remember now that these programmes were in the order of a commemoration of an anniversary of the Rwanda genocide with the intention of keeping alive the idea of what France is capable of. As I understand it, the French troops present did nothing to stop the massacres, and the official version is that they were "observers". (Which is not to say I swallow that line.)
I don't read the press much, but I do listen to the radio which is almost always on, tuned to Inter.

The point I will make is that if an hour every afternoon for a whole week is given over to that subject, plus a series of "Rendez-vous avec X" on the one radio station I listen to, and the one TV documentary that I watched, that must have been only a part of the coverage. The Rwanda genocide is not kept secret from the French people. Like any nation, France is made up of people who care about world events within or without their own responsibility, who might also criticise other nations, and a whole lot of people who couldn't give a damn either way.
But to say the coverage isn't there is not true.

[dot king]

"l"enfer est pavé de bonnes intentions" DANIEL

In English we say: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
(I know you like sayings :)) and this one is exactly the same.

Of course I knew that the 41 hours were influenced by the law of averages, drawn up or down by exceptions, but the survey contradict the idea that the French are a lazy nation (which is not my experience in 17 years of living here) that people like to trot out when it suits them.
After all, if the whole of France worked a 35-hour week, the average would be 35, n'est-ce pas?

[dot king]

"but you gotta hand it to the french: when they protest, they do it with panache -- in this instance, by attacking a diminutive, female parapalegic. "
AZLOON

It has been established that the protester was not French, but American and probably a "professional" protester - see mine and Rocket's posts above.

"recently yesterday in thailand, that he continues to have serious issues with the chinese human rights record." AZLOON on dubya

And we all still have a problem with USA human rights issues - CIA prison camps all over the world for torturing Al Qaida suspects, Guantanamo. Dubya is perhaps not your best argument where human rights are concerned, needing to practise more what he suddenly preaches.
But you're right about Sarko, act-react, clockwork mouse, knee-jerk politics.
As FRANCOIS D expresses, who knows what France's stance on the Iraq war would've been with Sarkozy in the decision-making position, so eager to be liked and accepted.

[dot king]

RICK: an afterthought regarding Rwanda - from this very blog I once linked to an article on the Rue 89 site and from there to another article accompanied by a clip of film showing Hubert Védrine, Foreign Affairs Minister at the time of the Rwanda genocides, having eggs thrown at him by protesters in a Paris street.
This was relatively recently, certainly this year - the TV and radio programmes I referred to earlier were longer ago, but certainly within the last two years (before that I couldn't have been listening to the radio in the afternoon because of work commitments).
I don't know whether you live in France or whether your criticism comes from reading only the British press, but you are quite wrong about Rwanda coverage.
I've just googled "rwanda génocide" (to be sure of getting French language articles) and the result was 585,000 in 0.27sec.

Here are a couple:

http://www.genocidemadeinfrance.com/

http://www.hrw.org/french/reports/rw94/rwandamai94.htm

The second one comes from Human Rights Watch and implicates the UN and the USA in the general apathy.

[azloon]

[Dubya is perhaps not your best argument where human rights are concerned, needing to practise more what he suddenly preaches.] DOT

my citation of bush's handling of china's human rights record was meant to suggest only that sarko is a 'jumping bean' lacking a calm center, and had nothing to do with bush's own dubious record in this area ('not having a whole lot to teach any of us," i wrote).

re the supposed u.s. protestor. you've been in france too long, Dot. now are you trying to weasel out of french responsibility for the results of the demonstration by pointing out that a u.s. citizen may have been involved? i don't believe they were all u.s. citizens, were they? and where were the frigging police when foreign nationals needed to be protected? probably the same place they were when gadaffi was terrorizing paris, and where french troops were when the rwandan genocide was unfolding in front of their faces.

previous comments on this blog from french and french sympathizers to the effect that the french are being singled out unfairly for acts/attitudes/policies that they have in common with other countries, and for which those countries receive less critical notice, is nonsense.

the french receive the reaction they fully deserve, and which they plainly invite, albeit perhaps unconsciously. what stands out to me is the naivete of the french in failing to appreciate the effect their behavior has on others, how it is perceived by non-french. instead, what we often get is faux surprise and hurt feelings, along with excuse-making, all of which just makes it worse.

show a little sack, france. no apologies, no excuses. you are what you are, as is the case with the rest of us. save your hyper-sensitivity for the therapist's couch.

[rocket]

Daniel

You know I have the highest respect for you and I generally trust your appreciation of events.

[dot king]

AZLOON, I neither apologise nor excuse the demonstrator who tried to wrest the O torch from the girl in the wheelchair, but it has been established that the person was not a French national. I can't change that either.

BTW I don't think I've been in France too long - in fact I haven't finished being in France for a long time yet. Maybe you haven't been to France in too long a time and only get your info from "anglo-saxon" biased anti-French sources?

There were two articles about France in the Times earlier this week, neither of them by Charles, both used stereotyping and misinformation to give an anti-France/stupid French feel (IMO). The English-language press gives French news a whole new context often that anyone living in France (and taking notice of what's going on) would possibly not even recognise.

[azloon]

[The English-language press gives French news a whole new context often that anyone living in France (and taking notice of what's going on) would possibly not even recognise.] Dot

Dot, your 'sniveling' makes my point perfectly.

remember, there are varying degrees of truth in perception, i.e., the rest of the world probably doesn't 'get it wrong,' as you and other french bloggers sometime erroneously imagine.

the mirror is a harsh judge.

[Daniel Strohl]

Dot,

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." (I know you like sayings :))

Yes, I like sayings ! Hereafter a special one for AZLOON relative to GWB's critics of "droits de l'homme" in China : "Faites ce que je dis, mais ne faites pas ce que je fais".

PS : Azloon posting from the top of his 1800 m high mountain in deep Arizona reminds me of a quote attributed to Bonaparte in Egypt, speaking to his troops : "Du haut de ces pyramides, 40 siècles vous contemplent" :))

[Daniel Strohl]

Azloon,

"the mirror is a harsh judge"

Yes, true! But did you ever hear from "miroirs déformants" ? :))

[Rick]

Thank you, DOT KING for the information about coverage in France of the Rwanda question…. I stand corrected. Though, I’m still rather at a loss though to understand why there is so little mainstream coverage of a matter so dishonouring of France’s reputation. One rather believes that the British or American press would get its teeth round the ankles of this story and not let go.

The better part of a million killed; God knows how many mutilated, raped and despoiled. Set this alongside the occasional politician who will admit at most to ‘mistakes’ having being made in Rwanda. Important political figure have been accused of involvement; and not by some kind of kangaroo court. Then, bear in mind French preparedness to rejoin NATO provided a suitable starring part is made available. What we have here is the mother of credibility gaps. With not a little tacit racism added.

P.S. DOT, I don’t read a rabidly Francophobic rag unless, that is, you count the ‘Times’…

[Dodo]

Rick "Though, I’m still rather at a loss though to understand why there is so little mainstream coverage of a matter so dishonouring of France’s reputation."

Because the true is that Rwanda is very dishonouring to ALL, USA, Great Britain and international community included... :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,234216,00.html

Just ask this very question : Who care "Rwanda"?

Read the end "the killings were perpetrated largely by units of the Rwandan army, the army of a government enjoying direct US support"....
So the rule is : Better to ignore the true.

[Mary Fernandez]

So the French protestor who assaulted the parapalegic Chinese woman has gone from "I think they said it was a US citizen (sous réserve), not French anyway. And most probably a "professional" demonstrator." to "It has been established that the protester was not French, but American..." (Even if he were, France offered the guy means and opportunity.)

and

The genocide in a fomer French colony which received direct military support from France is now the fault of the United States.

I suggest some people here need to read L'Obsession Anti-Americaine: by Jean-Francois Revel.

Or, in the immortal words of Azloon, come on France, 'show a little sack'.

[Romain]

We are living the end of a kind of Western unitelarism, whose most common paradigm was Chinese and Russian political positions could be ignored.
Look at a few recent events : Burma, the UN had to accept the solutions proposed by Asean. Kenya Zimbabwe, nothing can be done without the African Union. Georgia, question mark : who can prevent Russia from invading it ?
It is self defeating to try and impose conditions to the largest nation in the world, even in the name of "human rights". On the other end, politicians lobby intensively to help multinational corporations obtain contracts from China. Those corporations do not favour social improvement at all; look at Adidas, relocalizing its factories to Vietnam, because of higher salaries in China.
China invested 85 billion $, on the Olympics and much more than it, national pride. It was pretty naive , maybe dubious from the IOC to award the Olympics to China, pretending this would change the human rights issue. No initiative of the 25th hour to change anything to that had any chance of success.

[Romain]

Mary Fernandez,

Hold on to your guns lol. Do you seriously believe French soldiers took part in the Rwanda genocide(formerly Belgian colony)? I am sure you know better than that.
Nobody else wanted to send troops, and now there is a price to pay with ignominious accusations.

[Judith]

I watched the anti-torch demonstration in Paris (on France 2) with some horror. It wasn't hard for me to imagine the terror felt by the young woman who was helpless to move quickly by herself as some aggressive large person surged towards her. Of all the images of the botched torch relay that was clearly the stand-out.

My distress with the French reaction was that the news clips of the demonstration were all on demonstrators with bloody mouths. For all the drama of the incident of the young Chinese woman, it didn't seem to interest French TV (or at least France 2). It took a few days before we started to see the clip of the young Chinese woman again, after of course it caused much distress and anger in China and she returned there to a hero's welcome.
Additionally I recall a member of the National Assembly standing outside the NA building enjoying the mayhem of the demonstration and saying "Sympa" to a journalist on film.

For all the disturbance in other torch relays, I think, only France managed to terrorise a young Chinese girl in a wheelchair and have a member of their own Parliament so enthusiastically supporting the demonstration.

[Rick]

You’re absolutely right, DODO. The Rwandan genocide should lie heavy on many consciences. In this instance though, we should perhaps distinguish between sins of omission and those of commission. Clinton said later that if he had sent 5,000 marines, half a million lives could have been saved. His was a sin of omission.
French troops were there on the ground, though. Equally undeniably, there’s documentary (archival) proof that Mitterand feared that: ‘Once Rwanda was “lost” to Anglophone influence, French credibility in Africa would never recover’ [Wikipedia]. Talk of an (unverified) ‘double genocide’ makes it apparent that there’s a lot of squirming going on in official quarters.

As for the judge (Jean-Louis Bruguière) making his preposterous claim that the genocide was in a sense self-inflicted; well that takes the biscuit. According to ‘The Economist’, the learned judge maintained that Tutsi rebels shot down the presidential aircraft in order that their own people be massacred which, in turn, would provide a pretext for Kagame to attach Kigali. Just how far can one strain credibility?

Guilt is one thing; undignified contortions to avoid blame are perhaps the most eloquent indicators of guilt. What’s more, they compound the original offence.

[Francois D]

To Judith;
"For all the disturbance in other torch relays, I think, only France managed to terrorise a young Chinese girl in a wheelchair and have a member of their own Parliament so enthusiastically supporting the demonstration. "

You just forget what has happened in Tibet, deaths and religious persecutions. Only in Tibet, the difference is that reports are prohibited.
Incredible how minds may be manipulated.

[dot king]

"One rather believes that the British or American press would get its teeth round the ankles of this story and not let go."
RICK

I think it's possibly because no-one has "clean hands" in the whole affair. The French sold arms and supplied training for the Rwanda army serving the government before the massacres (in the HRW article they get one short paragraph, the UN and the USA get much more). Find me a first world country that doesn't have an arms trade with some very dodgy goovernments. The UN and the USA did nothing to prevent the massacres when they started happening. According to the Human Rights Watch article, the whole world stood by and let the genocide happen.
Maybe it's in no-one's interest to look to closely too publicly?

A question for you, no hidden agenda, the Rwanda genocides happened in 1994 - 1996 roughly, why has it only just come to your attention? The 10th anniversary was commemorated in the French media a couple of years ago (it's coming back more clearly as I think of it), so why is it in your consciousness only now?

[dot king]

"remember, there are varying degrees of truth in perception, i.e., the rest of the world probably doesn't 'get it wrong,' as you and other french bloggers sometime erroneously imagine.

the mirror is a harsh judge. "
AZLOON

Quite so, you should remember it also, I don't think the rest of the world "gets it right" I haven't said that, but there is a tendency to belittle France by other nations, perhaps particularly Britain and the USA, and France has a laugh from time to time at them. So be it.
But how can you know from your Arizona eyrie, what is "true" or otherwise about France?

As an American, you can't afford more than an occasional glimpse in the mirror yourself. No mirror is without its flaws, specks, and distortions.

[dot king]

MARY F: I said the protestor was American "sous réserve" not because I wasn't sure in my mind, but because I would like someone to confirm my memory of it. And Rocket did. He also quite rightly pointed out that it wouldn't have mattered what nationalty, or even which planet the demonstrator-aggressor was from, the image was imprinted on everyone's mind as a French one.
That's the way it is.
I'm not pleading a case, I was giving, so I thought, additional information. I don't care who the aggressor was, they were wrong to do what they did, wherever they come from.
It's also been suggested that maybe the police weren't doing their job of letting the flame pass in security. I wasn't there. Like everyone else, I have coverage and comment from the media.
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa I am about to be guilty of expressing an opinion - the Chinese wheelchair-bound athlete was aggressed in France, in Paris, the police were either turning a blind eye, or they were occupied elsewhere trying to hold back other demonstrators.
There is a possibility that no-one thought that a girl in a wheelchair would be targeted, such actions are (IMO&Ex) not part of the French modus operandi.
She was under the protection of all those Chinese security men, n'est-ce pas? The ones in the cute tracksuits, fooling no-one?
But it was indeed later revealed that the demonstrator who aggressed the girl was American, just as the 4 demonstrators who climbed up a Beijing tower to hang a banner were American. You want me to say they were some other nationality?

[dot king]

"For all the drama of the incident of the young Chinese woman, it didn't seem to interest French TV (or at least France 2)."
JUDITH

That's the news channel I watch and I didn't see anything the way you describe it.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4ztb8_la-flamme-olympique-chahutee-a-pari_news

The protesting voices here aren't shouting French "Free Tibet"

http://www.xiii.net/blog/index.php/archives/2008/04/14/flamme-olympique-a-paris-une-athlete-handicapee-un-faux-militant-tibetain-deux-photos-et-beaucoup-de-questions/

This article presents an interesting point of view with credibility

http://lachutedumur.wordpress.com/2008/04/19/torche-a-paris-athlete-paralympique-harcelee-coup-monte/

and another

[Rick]

What I was criticising DOT was not the offence. It was the deeply cynical 'cover up' going on right now in France.

I fail to see how somebody living in Arizona is uniquely disqualified from knowing what goes on in France. There appears to be no shortage of people living in France who have a blind spot in this regard.

[Dodo]

I hate the stereotypes like "The French are cowards, the English perfidious, the Americans ignorant and uncultured – understand in geography and history"

Indeed I truly believe that some americans people are courageous, some french people are sincere and some english people are cultured.

However I would like to remember a historical and geographical fact: Rwanda is not a former French colony but a BELGIAN colony (Rwanda-Burundi also called Congo Belge) - Belgium is a sovereign European country, I was told;

Yes I know: part of Belgium speaks french even if they are not French. Part of USA also speaks english but we know they are not English....

This said, if the US President apologized to Rwanda in name of the USA, I doubt it was for to please the frenchies and I suppose the former US president had some reason for it…
It is not ?

[Dodo]

"You’re absolutely right, DODO. The Rwandan genocide should lie heavy on many consciences." Rick

Merci Rick for your support.

‘Once Rwanda was “lost” to Anglophone influence, French credibility in Africa would never recover’ [Wikipedia]'
Rick

Well... Wikipedia .. hum...

It's online, so it is true... Hum...

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2005-12-06-wikipedia-truth_x.htm

But, merci Rick, once again.

[dot king]

"It was the deeply cynical 'cover up' going on right now in France.

I fail to see how somebody living in Arizona is uniquely disqualified from knowing what goes on in France."

RICK:
I have been trying to show that there has been no cover up - if you aren't convinced by 585.000 references in French in Google on the subject, then I give up. I never intended to get into any kind of argument, I thought you might like to know that there has been and still is coverage of Rwanda genocides in France. It was passing on information, no more.
The French, rather good at self-flagellation, have gone over Rwanda, as I've already tried to show. You might not be satisfied with the result, but that's a different story.

Nor do I suggest that anyone anywhere is disqualified from knowing what goes on in France, but all of us have to get our information from the sources available to us. If those sources are only the English language sources, then there is a possibility that different views, understandings, judgements, of French events come through - things get "lost in translation" as well as maybe half the story.
I can read about anything that is going on anywhere in the world, but I can't be sure that what I'm reading is a fair representation of what the people in that place are experiencing. I live here and work here and see things quite differently from a non-French person who hasn't been to France in a long time and only gets info filtered through the media.
I fail to see why my view as a resident in France hasn't at least as much value as that of someone who isn't here and hasn't been here in a very long time.

[rocket]

DODO

You said

"I hate the stereotypes like "The French are cowards, the English perfidious, the Americans ignorant and uncultured – understand in geography and history"

But on the other hand should one blogger dare to make a comment which doesn't please you then, the victimization kicks in and you cry out for the censure.

Is the glass half full or half empty DODO?

You also said

"Part of USA also speaks english but we know they are not English.."

You're sense of humor escapes me even after so many years in France.

[Rick]

Okay, DOT, there’s been no ‘cover up’. Oh, and France didn’t have to wait 27 years till ’72 for an American (!), Robert O Paxton, to expose the lies and hypocrisy surrounding the Vichy régime. You see, France has ‘form’ in the matter of ‘cover ups’.

Oh, and it wouldn’t have been the first time that French officers had encouraged African troops to commit atrocities, would it? [Les Goumiers, Monte Cassino (1944) and Pforzheim (1945)]

[Dodo]

Ah non, Rocket. There was no victimisation in my comment, nor irony nor humor.

One blogger (Mary Fernandez | 10 Aug 2008 07:12:18) called Rwanda "a former French colony" !!!!

I said to her (?) no, it is not, even if they speak french.
Where is the "victimisation" in remembering her that it is a former Belgian colony ?

[azloon]

[there is a tendency to belittle France by other nations, perhaps particularly Britain and the USA, and France has a laugh from time to time at them] Dot

laugh all you want. that's a good way to handle what you regard as misperception.

mais, souvenez-vous, pas de sniveling!

[Romain]

The Rwanda polemic was brought up mainly by Colette Braeckman,an eminent Belgian journalist from Le Soir.Based on speculations, she accused France to have organised the shooting down of the Falcon 50 lent by France to president Habyariman, which happened on Apr 06 1994,around 20h30. The aircraft black box was never retrieved, nor the guiding heads of the SAM missiles, alledgely picked by France from an Iraqi stock. Colette Braeckman choosed a very narrow prism in order to demonstrate French government culpability in what would be a very abject crime.
I don't believe the journalist's view is credible at all.
There are many deep and real causes to the genocide. I'll be able to explain further if ever the topic comes up.
Pas de sniveling, a new word added to my lexicon. Tks azloon.

[DODO]

"she accused France to have organised the shooting down of the Falcon 50 lent by France to president Habyariman"

I don't know the In and Out of this affaire.
However there is an interesting point...
The shooting of the Falcon is exactly what the Juge Brugère accused Kagame 2 years ago.

http://www.liberation.fr/actualite/monde/218370.FR.php

[dot king]

RICK: I don't understand. To DODO you say:
"You’re absolutely right, DODO. The Rwandan genocide should lie heavy on many consciences." Rick

Which is what I say in slightly different terms in a post higher up:
"I think it's possibly because no-one has "clean hands" in the whole affair."

So why are you lambasting me and agreeing with DODO when we are both saying the same thing?

I'm not personally responsible for what the media put out anywhere, in English or in French. You obviously have a particular interest in Rwanda and have striven to acquire an in-depth knowledge, I haven't and I don't. Fine.
I thought you might be interested to know about things that have been published in France, you aren't. Fine by me.
I have no particular interest in the subject, but I do know that there has been coverage and that it has been critical coverage, for having heard it myself. You want to judge the whole of the French nation by that? Fine.
And non-French residents too? Fine.
You are very angry about what you say is a cover-up, OK, fine.
Sorry for having tried to direct you to some additional information, it won't happen again, promise. :)

[dot king]

"There are many deep and real causes to the genocide. I'll be able to explain further if ever the topic comes up."
Romain on Rwanda genocides

ROMAIN: It's already here, pit your wits against Rick.

BTW "snivelling" not "sniveling" - double "l" - a spelling rule of the English language that as an American, Azloon might not be aware of.
You should perhaps not be thanking him as you are French and he is likely to accuse you of snivelling - "the sniveling (sic) French" just because you are French and he doesn't like the French; I because I live in France and because (according to him) I've been here too long and this has affected my perception of just about everything :)

[Judith]

Dot
If the people of France wished to demonstrate their concern with the Chinese actions in Tibet, that was entirely up to them.
However it was clear that the Chinese government and people would be less than happy when the film of the fearful young Chinese woman hit the Chinese airwaves.

All I can say is that if this had happened in Australia I would have expected my Prime Minister and Foreign Minister to be on the phone to Beijing immediately with apologies and expressions of regret at the same time as they were making the point that Australians have a right to express their views publicly as long as they are not violent.

I know that the French have a long history of public demonstrations in support of their politics and that they cherish their rights and traditions.

While I think that the diplomacy of President Sarkozy and Bernard Kouchner has been inept in regard to the Olympic Games, I would have to say that they have had to work in a very difficult domestic environment.

[Daisy]

Sarko stays true to form. As soon as things go well for him, he sabotages it. I don't feel sorry for him.

And hey, if you were the Dalai Lama, who would you rather meet? Dingbat Sarko or his pretty model wife? :)

[John Gregory Flinn]

Actually the emphasis on punishing France by China might be construed as a compliment.
China may consider France as an originator or leader of opinion in Europe and/or the western world, especially now Sarkozy has the EU hat on! Or at least not having a view dictated by others. (Hence it would be important to make sure the French, and hence the West, know China's position.)

Sarkozy may have been at pains recently to mend fences with the US and Britain about Iraq etc., but France's inimitable style will inevitably emerge to, often, confound the rest and, in this case, embarrass the President.
I can't wait to hear what he has to say about Russia and Georgia.....!

[Daniel Strohl]

Rick,

"Oh, and it wouldn’t have been the first time that French officers had encouraged African troops to commit atrocities, would it?"

Atrocities are committed in all wars, with or without orders, by ALL armies, not only the French of course, and of course not by "African" troops only...

Most of the armies try to cover them up when they happen. The most recent of the cover-ups or censorings, may be not of atrocities in this specific case, but of "unpleasant" things which happen in any war - deads, wounded etc. - is being engineering right now more and more in Irak by the American army, at least if one believes a today's extensive article in the "spiegel on line" http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,570047,00.html

Der Spiegel is a well known German weekly, with a daily Internet edition; this magazine is not known for its "anti-américanisme primaire", but for its generally serious work.

As a consequence of this organized censoring in Irak - which probably has some connection with the future American elections ... - Zoriah Miller, a known American war photographer, was pushed out of the Marines unit where he was embedded and had no other choice than to fly home.

Several others, including Mr. Kamber from the New-York Times , complained about similar problems hindering their photographic reporting work (I didn't read the NYT articles, therefore I have to rely upon Der Spiegel's assertions).

Rick, the above is not meant to make a stupid controversy - it is just to say that everybody has skeletons in the closet. May be you will be interested by the Alsatian version of the same thought : Everybody has mud on the stick (" 's han alli Drack am Stagge :))

[Rick]

Une disparité béante entre la gravité de l’atrocité et le peu de remous qu’elle a causé en France – voilà tout ce que je voulais dire. Mes excuses à quiconque se croit offensé.

[Romain]

Ah you see azloon? your posts are misleading : it's SNIVELLING, not "sniveling". I'll correct my lexicon, because all its entries must be in Queen's English.
Dot
No point arguing with Rick, unless he relies on facts to make his point.

[dot king]

Dot
If the people of France wished to demonstrate their concern with the Chinese actions in Tibet, that was entirely up to them.

All I can say is that if this had happened in Australia I would have expected my Prime Minister and Foreign Minister to be on the phone to Beijing immediately with apologies and expressions of regret

JUDITH

OK, look, I'm not French, I don't give a hoot about the Olympics and know little about the political situation in Tibet, but I live in France and see French news, and I can tell when someone is speaking French ot English.
Firstly, if you watched the Rue 89 link posted anonymously further up, you would see and hear that the demonstrators attacking the girl were yelling at her in English - now why would French people do that for French TV cameras if they wanted to make a point to the French viewing public?

Because they were not French demonstrators maybe?

That video also shows that her CRS protection was as complete as it could be, she was preceded, followed and flanked by CRS (special police squad) vans, and aren't those CRS officers fighting off the demonstrators, or haven't you looked?

Secondly President Sarkozy did apologise and even wrote personally to the athlete in the wheelchair.
Here's the text copied from the RTL radio site (but you can also find it on other sites including Nouvel Observateur and "que qui grogne"):

"Flamme olympique à Paris : Nicolas Sarkozy écrit une lettre à une athlète bousculée. Nicolas Sarkozy a adressé lundi des excuses et une invitation à une jeune escrimeuse chinoise handicapée, Jin Jing, malmenée par des manifestants pro-tibétains à Paris alors qu'elle portait la flamme olympique. "Je voudrais vous dire toute mon émotion pour la façon dont vous avez été bousculée à Paris le 7 avril", écrit le chef de l'Etat, remis à la jeune femme par le président du Sénat, Christian Poncelet à Shanghai."

[dot king]

JUDITH here you are, here's the link to the RTL page itself - you can even see a picture of Sarkozy's letter being handed to the girl by the leader of the Senate.

http://www.rtl.fr/fiche/89127/flamme-olympique-a-paris-nicolas-sarkozy-ecrit-une-lettre-a-une-athlete-bousculee.html

[Romain]

I am curious to see if Carla will wear a red curtain on her shoulder, like carrying the world.

[rocket]

Dot

"That video also shows that her CRS protection was as complete as it could be, she was preceded, followed and flanked by CRS (special police squad) vans, and aren't those CRS officers fighting off the demonstrators, or haven't you looked?"

Right Dot! and the Maginot line kept out the Germans.

[rocket]

Concerning Laure Manadou and her results today.

"A champion,'' said the French sports minister, Roselyne Bachelot, "is a very fragile thing.''

Right Madame Bachelot! A French champion is a fragile thing. And a real champion rises to the occasion!

Where's the killer instinct?

Victimization?

[Dodo]

"and the Maginot line kept out the Germans." ROCKET

My friend, you are the best !

A link for you on Maginot, dear Rocket Pignon friend :

http://minilien.com/?FhbSlN14k3

[Rick]

DANIEL, you wrote, ‘Atrocities are committed in all wars, with or without orders, by ALL armies, not only the French of course, and of course not by "African" troops only...' Sorry, but this is moral relativism. Like, ‘Look here, old chap, we’re men of the world…’ It won’t wash unless you are actually seeking to draw the conclusion: ‘therefore, any conduct, no matter how reprehensible, is permitted’.

You bring up the atrocities committed in Iraq by US and UK troops. One would not seek to deny them. I fail however to see any relevance to the point I was making… Which was, "Oh, and it wouldn’t have been the first time that French officers had encouraged African troops to commit atrocities, would it?" I think you will discover in both of the instances I cited, French officers promised their Moroccan troops that if they won their battles they would be permitted a limited period wherein they could plunder and rape to their heart’s content. That is not normal behaviour for officers.

Daniel, you wrote: ‘it is just to say that everybody has skeletons in the closet’. In the case of the Americans and Brits, many misdemeanours have come to light; and I’m confident that other offences will come to light too – if only because of the power of the press. This is a roundabout way of saying that the Americans and Brits find it difficult to hide their skeletons. In France, I suspect that things are different.

[Blendi Progri]

There's little anyone can do to China, and it isnt easy to be constant where so many interests are involved. In one hand there are human rights, on the other are money and big business with a wast country.
But Sarko moved quite a lot and thats his main fault- his postion is rarely clear. Maybe at his level confusing few people could be considered a wise move, but confusin 'em all - wont work.

The guy can't stand still.

--

Today I heard that he is going to See for himself what is happening in Russia-Georgia, LOL, as there isn't enough calamity in that part of the world.

Bernie is already there though (F.Foreign Minister) when asked when peace is going to come, he replied:
I'm working on it. Don't you just love these guys.

He is working on It. LMAO

Now that Sarko goes there, he will be Sarko-The-Peace-Maker. That's a big jump from a mere Sarko-The-Rescuer, I'm sure he can do it.
He will Sit down Georgia and Russia, have a drink, tell some jokes, make all the parties smile and thats how Peace is conluded, Sarko style.

The guy needs a break- I think- so many troubled spots in the world, so many things to do, deals to fix, people to save...well there arent enough days on the year to do them all...and on top of it the poor dude has to run France.

Aren't we just being too critical of Super-Sarko?

[azloon]

Dot, i believe 'sniveling' is the preferred (american?) spelling (my spell checker lets it through, but not 'snivelling'). so your parochialism is showing a bit.

tough luck france on the 4x100 men's freestyle relay. alain bernard, an awesomely talented athlete, made the mistake of telling his american opponents that he and his mates intended to 'smash' them. the americans had no immediate reaction to bernard's 'dissing,' instead letting their performance do the talking, and 'taking care of business.' did sarko call them to tell them they were 'losers?'

Gary Hall, an american swimming sprinter, made the same mistake in 2000 when he told the australians he planned to smash them 'like a guitar.' the victorious australian relay team strummed 'air guitars' as they stood on the podium to receive their gold medals. sweet.

[Judith]

Thanks Dot for the information on the apology. I had missed it at the time. It was a very sensitive and humaine response.
Btw it looks like Nicolas Sarkozy didn't bungle really. I have just read that the EdF has signed a final agreement to form a joint venture with China Guangdong Nuclear Power to build and operate two nuclear power reactors in China. the timing is interesting.
I note that now the President of the Republic is off to Moscow and Tblisi. He certainly has amazing energy levels.

[rocket]

HI Dodo

Here's a couple for you that are very pertinent at this time.

http://tinyurl.com/68deaj

http://tinyurl.com/55475c

[Daniel Strohl]

Rick,

"You bring up the atrocities committed in Iraq by US and UK troops"

No, Rick - I didn't speak about atrocities commited in Irak by US and UK troops - nor did Der Spiegel (I said that atrocities are committed in any war - it was not an accusation of specific American or UK atrocities in Irak).

The main point was the censorship made by the American army on war photographers in order to conceal the "unpleasant" things that happen in any war : destructions, wounded and killed people, especially in the case of American soldiers.

Der Spiegel says : "Fünf Jahre Krieg, und es existiert nicht mal ein halbes Dutzend Fotos toter US-Soldaten", sagt Michael Kamber, der derzeit als Fotograf im Bagdader Büro der "New York Times" arbeitet und ähnliche Erfahrungen wie Miller gemacht hat. SPIEGEL ONLINE. "Die wollen, dass wir Wiederaufbauprojekte fotografieren. Aber wir sind hier, um über einen Krieg zu berichten." Translation : "Five years of war, and there does not exist even a half dozen photographs of dead American soldiers", says Michael Kamber who works right now as a photographer in the Bagdad bureau of the New York Times and who has made similar experiences to those made by Miller. "They want us to photograph reconstruction projects. But we are here to report of a war".

"In France, I suspect that things are different" - they are similar.

Nobody is innocent (including the French of course, who have a rich history of various wars :)) and everybody tries to conceal unpleasant things, especially for the home consumption.

Regarding war reporting : I am not a fan of journalists (specifically when they make a living digging in the mud of private lifes), but honest war reporting (i.e not propaganda reporting) has a big advantage : it helps to limit the extent of atrocities which would otherwise be commited freely by armies in war - and I repeat, by ALL armies, on more or less the same extent. In any army, people are trained to kill, not to think too much or to be merciful.

[dot king]

DODO, ROCKET: thanks for those clips. Les Inconnus were THE BEST! Jacques Villeneuve, regretté!
Excellent - if that's the form your battles are going to take, keep the war going! :D

"He certainly has amazing energy levels." JUDITH

French nuclear-powered, quoi d'autre? :)

[Daniel Strohl]

Azloon,

"made the mistake of telling his american opponents that he and his mates intended to 'smash' them"

As you point it out, a good life guidance principle is to boast (if one cannot resist) only AFTER the event, and never BEFORE. Let us see if this principle applies also to Phelp :))

[John Gregory Flinn]

"Bernie is already there though..."

Yes, although on the clip I saw he seemed very thoughtful.
Probably thinking about 'what goes around comes around' - or 'what's good for the goose is good for the gander'....
He must be wondering how to explain the fact that the Russians have copied his doctrine verbatim! (Ref., an earlier thread and the right to interfere in other nations' affairs etc.)

No doubt Super-Sarko with his EU hat will elucidate how the NATO interference in Serbia was different to this action by Russia. And the Georgian premier is a nice gentleman not at all like that nasty chap from Belgrade!
Or maybe he will be too embarrassed (again) to compare the two events....!

[dot king]

"so your parochialism is showing a bit".
Azloon

erm, why is it my parochialism and not possibly yours?
your spellchecker is american and only lets through american spellings, therefore by your own definition it's parochial

BTW the spelling rule in English English is that if the vowel is short (like the "e" in "get" for example) then the consonant following it is doubled when a past tense is formed ("snivelled") or an ending is added to make an adjective or a present participle ("snivelling"). The presence of only one consonant would make the vowel a long sound, like the "e" sound in "teen" for example. So we'd have level -> levelling, levelled, but reveal -> revealed, revealing.
So the American English spelling of "sniveled" would in English English, if we follow the rule, be pronounced "sniveeled".
Except that you know perfectly well that I'm well acquainted with both spellings and was only having a dig at you for your having had a dig at me. :) dig -> digging :)

[Doremi ( still not Dot)]

rocket
That is so funny. If only it was a parody.

2 weeks holiday in a small village near Sète, sea, sleep, cheap plonk and listening to the locals moan about the state of the country and that people have no money or don't spend, from dawn to dusk. Things are so bad that the baker is closing and the bar owner on the corner got busted for selling drugs. Only the wine seller is doing well - 1.10 Euro le litre de pinard.

I watched the opening of the J.O on the tv, loved it, ( no little red books anywhere just a sprinkle of Confucius) wondering about their electricity bill and the way the UK would top it ( I plan to have left the country by then).

Watching:
My girouette of a president being interviewed by Gérard Holtz (whose over use of hair products has fried his brain) explaining his volte-face ("look all their factories make our stuff, what do you want from me, we can sell them some Chanel or high-tech stuff"), I thought chapeau to the guy, no wonder he has success with women.

Le faux-cul that once co-created MSF speaking without self-awareness of what he has become.

Reading in Marie Claire that Carla would not mind having the destiny of an Eva Peron (the movie version of her life I assume) and seeing her over-botoxed face in VF with the Annie Leibovitch -totally staged passing as intimate - treatment I did not even try to get sober for the news.

I wonder if the Dalai Lama is going to get a dedicated CD from Carla. The advert for a new Fiat car features Richard Gere driving from Hollywood to Tibet without trouble, so anything is possible.

[Blendi Progri]

He didt It! Bravo, Sarko!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4516025.ece

The Times reports online that Sarko helped to broker a deal between Russia and Georgia.

Who dares to mock him now, LOL, I tried and in less than 12 hours he puts peace modules in place.
it could be that both sides were tired and needed some sleep, anyhow Sarko's plan- is called now.

So what can I say, Only to guess that France won't get rid of him that easy, even 3 presidential terms won't be enough for this guy.

Chief of EU, picking fights left and right, appearing here, there and everywhere and now in another hot-spot and he still wins, here we are thinking running France will be a full time job for anyone, but not for Sarkozy.

Thats the mark of a statesman- he sends his main guy- Bernard- then goes himself and 2 handshakes later, deprives the rest of world media from the biggest news ther is right now.

I even feel for them, now that all jounalists were beginning to gather in the region, Sarko alone sends them back home. What a guy!

From SARKO- The-Rescuer, to Sarko-The Peacemaker, now only one thing is left for him on this earth to do,lol, Sarko-The Liberator, freeing a country ( any country) from shackles of tyrany... oh and continuing to run France, part-time as he does with much flare.

Am reminded of Tony Blair's first few years in power, this paper calculated that in a given time, Blair spent more time abroad than in UK.

All is needed is that someone gets cured of a terminal illness by touching the main Man (a photo of him will do) then let the beautification take place... there's not much left on this earth for Sarko to do, to fix or re-arrange.
The guy simply isnt cut for a 9-5 Job.
I wish he was my President too ;)

[Daisy]

It is hilarious the way The Times is playing this up as a big Sarkozy event and like he is some great statesman and peacemaker. Medvedev had called a halt to attacks before he met with Sarko and bombs are still falling after the ceasefire was 'agreed' by Moscow. Great diplomacy!

[We'll see, Daisy. I was there in the Kremlin today. Will try to do a Moscow blog tomorrow. I'm still here in Russia. CB]

[rocket]

CB

Saw you on the tv today. CNN

You got a front row seat!