Poor Americans avoid Paris

Paris is missing its Americans. Visitors from the United States stayed 20 percent fewer nights in the French capital in the first six months of the year. It's nothing personal says the Tourist Office. The high euro and US economic trouble is being blamed.

But politics were clearly behind the 6.7 percent fall in Chinese visitors [table below]. Beijing travel agencies took France off their brochures in April in an anti-French boycott after the hostile reception in Paris for the Olympic torch.

The Japanese were also down eight percent, contributing to a an overall 2.6 percent drop in nights spent by foreign travellers in the French capital. Paris remains the world's most visited city and and tourists from the French provinces more than compensated for the first slide in foreign stays for years.

The owners of the expanding supply of ultra-luxury hotels are gleeful over the 14 percent rise of rich visitors from the Gulf states. Hotels in the "golden triangle", between the Avenue Montaigne and the Champs Elysées, are making a special effort to meet their late night and late-rising habits. A couple of cinemas in the district are doing well from showing Arabic films late at night. A Saudi prince paid 15,000 euros to have the Elysées-Biarritz theatre ship in a new film and show it to his friends at three am, according to Hugues Piketty, the cinema director.

Jean-Bertrand Bros, the Deputy Mayor for tourism, says that the outlook is rosy. The flow from traditional tourist nations may slow further, but they are being replaced by a surge from the BRIC powers -- Brazil, Russia, India and China. Wherever they come from, they all want to see the three top monuments: the Eiffel Tower, the Sacré Coeur basilica and the Louvre.

Students of the Paris mentality should have a have a look at an internet site which collects amusing snippets of conversations heard around town. It's called Entendu à Paris (Heard in Paris) and is modelled on the popular Overheard in New York. It does not yet have anything like quantity of entries on that site, but there are a few funny glimpses of the Paris mentality.

Take for example the line heard between two fifty-something women in the posh Bois de Boulogne at 12.37 pm on August 4. "How can you admire Marie-Claude? She has made a complete mess of her life. She lives in the provinces."  People do still talk like that.

Here's the league table of main visiting countries. The Russians, who number about 200,000 a year, were counted in "other Europeans" which are not on this summary from the Tourist Office. The British have long been the biggest visitors, especially since the Eurostar tunnel express brought London closer in 1994.   

Comments

[Terry]

"It's nothing personal says the Tourist Office. The high euro and US economic trouble is being blamed."

The economic trouble is really NOT that bad here. Those who are in foreclosure trouble were never coming to Paris in the first place. However, the euro does make the cost very prohibitive to an already overpriced city. Need I even remind anyone here about a certain dinner at Closerie. Another point, the air fares to France have really shot up more than other European countries. So, a number of my friends have went to Costa Rica, Mexico etc where they get more bang for their buck.

We were going to Paris this summer but my wife had to go and get herself pregnant.

[Roger Goodacre]

I wonder whether politics, and specifically the Olympic torch incident, can really be the prime reason for the drop in Chinese visitor numbers? The figures given are for the period to the end of June 2008, the torch brouhaha occurred in early April, so at most it would have affected numbers in June and then only if most Chinese groups had cancelled at the last minute (with all the costs that would have incurred).

Tourism statistics in my experience should always be treated with a certain amount of caution, because the methods of 'data capture' are not always reliable and vary enormously from country to country.

For example, now that hotel guests in France are no longer obliged to complete a 'fiche hôtelière' to be submitted to the police, there must be an element of guesswork about the origin of some visitors.

I see that the table forecasts no change in the volume of visitor numbers from the UK for the second half of the year and an overall increase for 2008. However, the pound has weakened by some 15% in the last few weeks, and anecdotal evidence suggests that Brits are travelling less this summer and certainly spending less.

[azloon]

[So, a number of my friends have went to Costa Rica...} Terry

'have gone' :)

and stand up straight!

(signed)

your mother

[Dominique]

Come on Terry, you can make it!

We need your money at the Closerie!

[John]

Charles Bremner, something you may not have realized when you wrote this article is that these figures are essentially meaningless because they concern only the administrative City of Paris. They do not include hotels located beyond the administrative borders of the City of Paris. Problem is, nearly half of the tourists who come to Paris do not stay in hotels within the administrative borders of the city proper, so those figures don't mean much.

Drop in American tourists? It could just be the case that more American tourists decide to stay in the cheaper hotels located beyond the Périphérique, we cannot conclude that there are less American tourists coming to Paris overall. Staying in an Hôtel Ibis just on the other side of the Périphérique is enough to have you disappear from the figures you posted here.

If you want to write an article with the real tourism figures for Paris, you have to look at figures that cover all of Greater Paris. These you can find on the INSEE Île-de-France website. They publish tourism figures for Greater Paris all year round.

Concerning the Chinese, the vast majority of them do not stay in hotels inside the administrative borders of the City of Paris. Many of the Chinese tours decide to stay in the hotels located near Dysneyland Paris, so again these figures for the City of Paris proper are meaningless.

Here you can find tourism figures for Greater Paris in 2007:
http://www.insee.fr/fr/insee_regions/idf/themes/don_cadrage/bes2007/bes07_eco07.pdf

As you can see, the number of Chinese tourists staying in hotels in Greater Paris already declined in 2007, before all the 'boycott France' stuff, so if it appears the number of Chinese tourists also declined in 2008, it's probably not linked (or feebly linked) to a supposed boycott, as the media love to portray things, but it seems more like a trend that started in 2007 already.

INSEE Île-de-France hasn't published figures for the 1st semester of 2008 yet. They have only published figures from January to April 2008. The "nuitées" (nights spent) of international tourists in Greater Paris actually increased during the four first months of 2008. For May and June we don't have figures yet. So the decline that you saw in the City of Paris proper seems more a case of foreign tourists moving to cheaper hotels just across the Périphérique.

You can see figures for January and February 2008 here:
http://www.insee.fr/fr/insee_regions/idf/prodser/pub_elec/faits_et_chiffres/fc173.html

and for April and May 2008 here:
http://www.insee.fr/fr/insee_regions/idf/themes/faits_et_chiffres/fc179/fc179.pdf

[Thanks, as always John. These figures are for the city of Paris. They show relative decline or rise against the previous six months, as collected by INSEE. The city council and tourism board found them meaningful enough to present them to the world with some fanfare this week. CB]

[Dodo]

"It's nothing personal says the Tourist Office. The high euro and US economic trouble is being blamed."

The economic trouble seems to be so bad that USA became a cheap destination for the French. :)
http://tinylink.com/?6dYDaBgxYn

C'est pour rire, mais ça fait du bien de provoquer un peu, chacun son tour.

[dot king]

Dodo your link doesn't work . . .

Terry: I have American friends and acquaintances who aren't coming to use their French houses because of the $ / € rate; one woman here has let her house until things improve - ie indefinitely probably.
Those who live here and transfer money from the USA are finding their "regular" amount considerably lower and variable with it.

[rocket]

Roger

"However, the pound has weakened by some 15% in the last few weeks." Unfortunately not true. Over the past few months the pound to euro has remained relatively stable. However over the past 2 years, yes there has been a downward movement in the value of the pound to the euro by about 15%

http://www.oanda.com/convert/fxhistory

Terry

"We were going to Paris this summer but my wife had to go and get herself pregnant."

Do you know who the father is? (LOL)

or is your wife hermaphrodite ? (double LOL)

Anyway that chicken is now 6% less expensive than the last time you came because of forex but inflation has driven it up at least 3%

[Dodo]

Dodo your link doesn't work . . .

Sorry, let try the french minilien,

http://minilien.com/?CXAR5cM9DI

It work better, of course

[John]

CB wrote: "The city council and tourism board found them meaningful enough to present them to the world with some fanfare this week."

Of course the city council and tourism board would present them and find them meaningful. They are legally constrained to do so by France's outdated administrative structure. It's you, as a journalist, who has to separate meaningless information from meaningful information.

Look, for instance, the City of London borough also no doubt publishes figures for the numbers of tourists who stayed in hotels in the City of London, because that's what they are legally constrained to do, because that's the territory they administer, but you as a journalist wouldn't report these figures as "tourism in London", you would look for tourism figures for the whole of Greater London and not just Westminster.

It's not any different in Paris. Figures for the entire Greater Paris are easily available: you have INSEE Île-de-France, you have the Observatoire du Tourisme en Île-de-France (ORTIF), you have the regional council of Île-de-France. They all publish tourism figures for the entire Greater Paris, with no less fanfare than the City of Paris proper.

[Giligulu]

Those Chinese who boycott anything French are so irrational, ignorant and nationalistic....it doesn't benefit them at all, and it hurts their compatriots who work for French companies. Chinese nationalism is starting to look like Nazism....

[Daisy]

Have faith! The US$ is on its way back up so soon the Yanks will be filling up Paris again and the French will have a chance to whine about them again :) However, if you live in Europe you may want to get your shopping trip to NY done soon.

Terry: Hey, a screaming kid in the house might be good incentive to swim to France.

[Don]

When one refers to the "Poor Americans" one should realize that this is highly subjective and
essentially meaningless. On a per capita income basis, which is not subjective, the United States ranks #6 in the world with Britain, Germany and France ranking, respectively, #20, #21 and #23. [All the countries that rank higher are very small countries with unique economic situations like Qatar, Norway etc.).

( ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita )

For some reason, when the Americans are having some problems with their economy, many Europeans like to refer to the Americans in a disparaging way.

[John]

@Giligulu: the number of Chinese tourists declined already in 2007, so it doesn't seem to be related to any sort of boycott. Here are the figures for Greater Paris:
2006: 458,000 Chinese tourists
2007: 425,000 Chinese tourists

The Paris Olympic torch relay incidents happened only in April 2008, after the number of Chinese tourists had already started to decline.

Dot:

"Terry: I have American friends and acquaintances who aren't coming to use their French houses because of the $ / € rate;"

Yeah, the exchange rate turns an expensive vacation into an extraordinarilly expensive one. (Azloon, the grammar nanny can check that one-it keeps him busy at least). You really get hit with it at all ends the airfare, housing, food, car, coca cola. I noticed even French beggars are getting more. Then you add in the exchange rate and then it gets to be a bit over the top. Where did your American friends wind up going?

Daisy:

"Terry: Hey, a screaming kid in the house might be good incentive to swim to France."

If the screaming russians keep at it, several thousand other Americans and I may be swimming ashore again at Normandy.

Ive been told to start sleeping now. The stork is due 1/3/09.

Dominique:

"Come on Terry, you can make it!

We need your money at the Closerie!"

Are you busing tables again, Dominique? I thought you worked at Keller's.

Rocket said:

"Anyway that chicken is now 6% less expensive than the last time you came because of forex but inflation has driven it up at least 3%"

Let's see, 75 euros for one skinny, bland French chicken, less 6%, that's 71.5 euros but up 3%. that's 2.45 euros. that's nearly 74 euros.

According to my calculations, let's see, THAT'S TOO @#$#%#@ MUCH!

BTW: I am still awaiting the DNA results.

[joelle]

French beggars definitely getting more since switch to Euro. The old boy near here was always politely grateful to get 2 francs and overjoyed with 5. Now you get abuse if it's anything less than a Euro. Personally I haven't had a payrise in 10 years so it does irk somewhat.

[Dodo]

Dixit by ... “If the screaming russians keep at it, several thousand other Americans and I may be swimming ashore again at Normandy.”

The same old rengaine :

We are in Yorktown when you need us, you are in Normandie when we need you

[Rick]

If France fails to support erstwhile Soviet bloc states on Monday, some of us will bid Paris a fond adieu – for good. I note in passing that opinion pieces in ‘Die Welt’ and ‘Neue Zürcher Zeitung’ have pointed out that the age is unheroic in which we fear ‘men of straw’. Come to think of it, that’s what Paris’ gastronomic delights would taste of.

[Lily]

Re: anonymous poster

Poor American has lost his/her name!

Help! Nameless poor American urged by the stork's arrival to find even more names (boy's? girl's? both?).

[Pierre]

"Entendu à Paris" doesn't seem much different from the famous (in France) "Brèves de comptoirs" compiled for years by Jean-Marie Gourio (although thoe were perhaps chose more "loufoques" and "absurd").

[Maggie]

"The stork is due 1/3/09." (Terry)

Is that the first of March, or the third of January?

(Just checking.)

[Dominique]

Don,

The CB article was about Paris, not France nor Europe.

Interesting figures show the GDP per person is depending on where you live within a country :

http://www.insee.fr/fr/themes/tableau.asp?ref_id=cmrsos08114&id=481

If Ile de France (Paris region) was singled out as a country, it would be 43K€ and ranked higher.

That was just to remind you that the first who suffer this situation are the average french who can't afford Paris...Foreigners are usually blamed for this, especially in the real estate sector. We hardly hear people "refer to the Americans in a disparaging way." Usually quite the opposite...

[dot king]

Anonymous Terry,
"Where did your American friends wind up going?"

The ones I was thinking of live here and go back to the States from time to time, but money is transferred over, pensions etc, and these monies fluctuate perforce as the $ollar fluctuates against the €uro.
I have some other American friends in a similar situation.
I believe this affects Brits as well, exchange rates, commissions, what have you. Only the banks get rich :)

[christopher muir]

All countries will be affected one way or another by unpredictatable exchange rates as they beckon tourists to their resorts. Add to that the rising cost of aviation fuel alongside evolving international tensions. You then have an economic recipe to trouble the minds of all tourism operators. Top Paris hotels' future balance sheets could be dictated to by a skirmish beside a very distant Black Sea port called Poti.

[Terry]

Hmmm. My name was erased again. So much for "Remember personal info?"

MAGGIE:

January 3, 2009. But Im trying to get the stork to deliver before 2008 ends so I get the tax deduction for the entire year.

DOT:

I was just wondering where they were vacationing instead of France. Some Americans are staying home. But most are finding cheaper destinations. England is worse than France I believe right now.

LILLY:

We know it will be a girl. Eva Catherine Zuckerman. "E" for my wife's father who passed. Catherine for my grandmother.

[Terry]

Rocket:

"Do you know who the father is? (LOL)

or is your wife hermaphrodite ? (double LOL)"

I knew someone wouldnt be able to resist. I just didnt know who'd be first, you or the Arizona bird.

LOL.

[thinknoworpaylater]

TERRY - pregnant - how careless of you! I hope your activities in yhe legal system are handled more carefully. In fact as someone else said the rest of France is generally much cheaper - hotels food everything: and usually warmer south of the Loire!

[Daniel Strohl]

TERRY,

Coud have been me, but I DID resist :)

[Lily]

Terry -

Eva Catherine Z. sounds pretty - though I guessed that for a girl you would have chosen Ayn. ;) -
You could still add another name.

[qwerty]

If Terry is an attorney, would he know something about Connecticut laws applying to abeyant estates? I need info re: persons missing at sea presumed dead; how long before legally declared dead and who winds up the estate (a tribunal?); what happens to their estate if there seems to be no next of kin; how do they look for the next of kin, do genealogists usually do this?

[azloon]

Terry --

it briefly crossed my mind, but, uncharacteristically, i demurred....

and besides, this having kids 'deal' is serious stuff. the big positive for you: you won't have to wonder what you'll be doing for the next 20 years. big positive for us: you won't have the time or energy for spreading your dangerous propaganda on the blog. oh, yeah, and you can start planning your next paris vacation for the summer of 2028.

:)

p.s. surely, you must have some opinion about sarah palin, our mooseburger-chomping, assault-rifle toting, hockey 'mum' who is mccain's vp choice. it's no wonder many europeans think the u.s. is such a goofy place. you really couldn't invent this woman. she's stranger than fiction. (answer this quickly before you have regular 3 a.m. feedings that are nudging you to the edge of madness.)

p.p.s is you wife a more reasonable sort than you, more open-minded, reflective? so that Eva Catherine gets both sides to the story.

[rocket]

Very interesting and true report on the Japanese in Paris today on M6 tv

Les docs de l'été - Une été à Paris

available on

M6replay.fr

report starts at 56 minutes52seconds

It's worth the 10 minute watch

[Gill]

Rocket, unfortunatlely for some of us the M6 link you mentioned is available only to French residents.

[rocket]

Gill,

Here's a different report on Dailymotion but same subject

http://tinyurl.com/6rtdmt

The M6 report was a bit more complete. I will try to find out if there is a possibility to download this the M6 report

[qwerty]

Azloon took the words out of my mouth about Ms Palin (aka "Annie Get Your Gun" & "Calamity Jane"). She is also a creationist and a hunter. She personifies everything I've never understood about the US.

You've already had 8 years with a born-again, God-appointed (he says) President who's made the most incredibly ill-inspired decisions - what's McCain thinking of? VPs sometimes become Presidents, especially if the President in office is not very young and has serious health problems.

Moreover, choosing her was an insult to women - implying that female voters for Hillary Clinton will necessarily vote for McCain because he took a woman on his ticket.

[Daniel Strohl]

AZLOON,

"you really couldn't invent this woman"

I read yesterday in a French blog that the lady you mention is called "Barracuda".

If this is true, you should absolutely avoid to go swimming in Alaskan waters to observe loons, your favourite bird species :)

It would be much safer for you to paddle in the Colorado river, as long as you stay at a safe distance from some rusty dams ...

PS : We had long discussions last year regarding Ségolène. She now gets strong competition from another lady, Martine Aubry, for the job of Premier Secrétaire du Parti Socialiste to replace Hollande whose almost 11 years stint will be terminated in a few months.

Both ladies are known for their strong will and the fight will be fierce. However, there is (as always) a problem : they do not box at all in the same weight category :)

[richard.jones]

As per Qwerty the Palin choice does not look a particularly inspired one.
If McCain were to die in office he would be replaced by a three year - in a 4 year term? - executive branch (governor) woman. Given that the 2008 (44th) president will almost certainly have to make some of the most unpopular decisions for over 60 years in terms of economics and social welfare, national security and global power, broken internal politics - eg electoral college and loony lobbyists. John McCain with the age implication of not running again has reasonable validity as a presidential choice. I perceive Ms. Palin cracks that image and will make the choice for Republicans and independents, especially ladies, because of not only the 'replacement risk' but also the 'relect for a second term risk' where the candidate would be Palin.
The last risk with Palin is that she would become an honorific VP and that rather than into her office, a large amount of delegated special project work would descend on somebody else giving them enormous power within the McCain administration: power for which they have not been elected and a process within the Republican ethos that could lead to another Chainey saw massacre power grouping within the White House.
I think this was going to be a close election anyway and, for once, the VP choice would be a factor, I think the Republicans have made the worst of the two VP decisions and unless Big Mouth Biden really screws it up before November or Obama confuses himself by 'talking real not rhetoric', then McCain cannot win, Palin was a bad choice - Romney would have been far better, just as Richardson with the latino handshake and foreign policy experience would have been better for Obama.

[Gill]

Rocket,
Thanks for the second link. It would be interesting to know whether this syndrome also occurs in other large cities around the world where perhaps the reality for long-term residents does not match the romantic version of a city given in tourist information. I suppose any nationality in a big city might be affected as it can be rather lonely for a newcomer. Perhaps the Japanese are particularly affected because in Japan the have very tight family structures - a protection they don't have abroad.

[azloon]

DANIEL

sarah 'barracuda' was a tenacious basketball player in her high school years and thus earned her moniker. it's amusing what names we take out of childhood: dr. gyneco .... sarah barracuda. i wonder if there was ever a chance for the two of them. highly doubtful.

she was also runner-up in the miss alaska beauty pagent and later a tv sportscaster. she says she now deliberately tries to hide her 'looks' by dressing as a librarian ('bun' on top, black eyeglasses, 'frumpy' clothes.

i actually kind of like this woman's story, and her grit. what puts me off are the implications of her becoming president and having the power to appoint supreme court justices. bush has already seriously damaged the credibility of the court, and she would, imo, finish it off with 'pro-life' appointments (as tho the rest of us are pro-death) who support her view that abortion, even in the case of incest or rape, should be illegal. i admire her for living her own beliefs (she recently gave birth to a down-syndrome child even after knowing this in utero). but i don't want those beliefs thrust on me.

i do wonder what she was thinking when she allowed herself to get pregnant at age 44, tho perhaps she and her husband were trying to get pregnant. if so, it seems as tho they were pushing their luck.

p.s. down syndrome children are, in my experience, delightful human beings with wonderful spirits, full of affection for others. i am certain their child will receive the love and care that many other human beings can only dream of.... and will contribute more to the greater well-being of the planet than many of us.

[rocket]

Richard

"Romney would have been far better"

Do you mean far better to really sink McCain.

Sorry but he's a Mormon. That still doesn't play well in the US. Just look at his primary results. Secondly he's a gazillionaire and the left (oops! Dems) would have been on him like flies on.... (well you know!)

MCCain is not a millionaire. His wife is.

IMHO- An excellent choice for VP by McCain.

[dot king]

"Both ladies are known for their strong will and the fight will be fierce. However, there is (as always) a problem : they do not box at all in the same weight category :)"
Daniel Strohl

Oh, Daniel, unworthy! I'm surprised at you! (well, not really:))

[azloon]

{MCCain is not a millionaire. His wife is.] Red Rocket (as in 'red state,' not as in red rudy--:))

if the wife has $100 million, then the husband has one million (thus a millionaire), i assure you. he gets that much every year in his 'allowance.' but essentially you are correct, the mega bucks are not his.

these senators (kerry before mccain) have a way of making sure that their increasingly expensive campaigns can be bankrolled by their rich wives. i think sarko may have taken his cue from these guys.

for other guys, its something else. my hillbilly-physician friend from arkansas likes to say he's looking for an edentulous* nymphomaniac whose father owns a liquor store.

*no teeth

[azloon]

p.s. cindy mccains father owned a beer distributorship but i believe her teeth are her own.

[dot king]

"edentulous*" *no teeth (Azloon)

édenté(e) sans dents

peasy cheasy that one :)

[Daniel Strohl]

DOT,

"unworthy! I'm surprised at you!"

Sorry, Dot, I couldn't resist, even if it was not really funny ...

IMHO, les deux dames ont déjà leur bâton de maréchal, l'une en tant que maire de Lille (sorry, Ijsel or Rijsel !), l'autre en tant que présidente de la région Poitou - Charente.

Il faut du sang neuf aux socialistes (je pense à Valls, dont j'ai lu une interview intéressante et sans langue de bois dans Le Point datant de 2 ou 3 mois), avec des idées adaptées à notre temps et compatibles avec celles de nos divers voisins européens. Nous ne sommes plus en 1981 et les caisses de l'état sont vides, alors qu'elles ne l'étaient pas en 1981 (mais en 1982/83, ça avait déjà changé .)

AZLOON,

"but i don't want those beliefs thrust on me" - nor would I.

PS : I like your PS.

[richard.jones]

Rocket,

Biden was a runner in the same reace as O'Bama and did badly, surely by your reasoning this would disqualify him from a VP posting!

PS - He's also an idiot which still doesn't go down too well with most people!!!!

[rocket]

Richard

"Biden was a runner in the same reace as O'Bama and did badly, surely by your reasoning this would disqualify him from a VP posting!"

Absolutely. In any case Obama should have chosen Ted Kennedy.(LOL)

Whatever the result, a member of a minority or a woman will finally have a position of power in the US.

Are you proud?

[Lex]

I don't know that the wives of Senators Kerry or McCain have donated more than the usual allowed amount of money to their husbands' campaigns. That would have been greatly commented on in the news.

Senator Kerry does have $120 million of his own -- inherited from his mother's family. That is easy to forget in the shadow of his wife's $750 million fortune, which she inherited from her first husband Senator Heinz.

I don't think that many American politicians commit their personal fortunes to their campaigns. It is often a foolish thing to do, and is more often seen as a desperate measure by voters.

[rocket]

Gill

I'm still waiting fro M6's response to my e mail. I fear that this being the "hexagon" and service often being if I may say..... "slow" or e mail responses non existent, I will be waiting for a long time

[Gill]

Thanks Rocket.
I've had this problem before with M6 programmes that I have watched in France and have then tried to replay on my return to London.
You probably can't see the screen that appears when I try to access M6 Replay. Basically it states that M6 buys the exploitation rights to programmes for a specific territorial area and that they are unable to bear the cost of obtaining international rights.
Access is denied to anyone who has a non-French ISP even if they are on French soil. M6 suggests we take up the matter with our ISP to find a solution.
So I think that is probably that!

[Lex]

Back to the original topic for a moment, no one I know is traveling this year, and most of my regular clientele seems to have stayed put as well.

Last summer we spent two weeks in Istanbul and Bulgaria, and even though that was inexpensive compared to traveling in the UK, Ireland or Europe, it did add up since we had our son and his girl friend in tow. This year it seemed foolish to spend all that money, and after the air fare increases, the prices of hotel rooms were somewhat shocking. Then there's the fact that my monthly gasoline & electric bills have almost doubled in the past twelve months and we are all concerned about how much it is going to cost to heat our houses this winter.

We Americans are given to sudden, extreme bouts of sensibility when it comes to money. I find myself digging around in the back of my closet looking for shoes I haven't worn in a while instead of buying new shoes. I only bought one new book last month, and I have actually been reading the anti-library.

This year, the better value seemed to be spending money on the house, since tradesmen have lowered their rates, given the sluggish economy. That seems to be the theme around here. I own a hardware store, and my business is up about twenty percent, as is the business in other hardware stores that I am friends with. Hair stylists and estheticians tell me that their clients have not gone away as they usually do, and are spending more on themselves.

Fortunately, with the exchange rate as it is, our hotels and shops are full of Europeans.

[azloon]

Richard Jones

if biden is an idiot, is there an english word to describe bush?

Lex

["Kerry stated that assets in his own name were worth $409,000 to $1.8 million, and he had an additional $300,000 to $600,000 in assets owned jointly with his wife.

So without his wife's money, Kerry is less wealthy than Bush."] from a presumably reliable source

my point about funding husband's campaign's was about their ability to LOAN large amounts in strategic situations (a major advantage), not to gift in excess of federal campaign laws.

[richard.jones]

Dear Azloon,

English does not have a word for the inescapable level of stupidity constantly exhibited by George Bush.

But the SwissGermans do 'ein Immerdummkerfli' - a person as I said above who is, and always will be, regardless of any effort made by himself or in concert with others, extremely unintelligent.
Before Mr. Strohl has a go at the German - it is Schwyzerdeutsch and written in that phonetic.

[Lex]

Alzoon,

That is very curious. I remember the 120M figure, because I thought that would put his and Teresa's net worth quite close to a billion dollars, which would be a milestone.

I will have to look into this again, but I think it must have something to do with the way that the ownership of wealth is determined for congressional reporting purposes. I would imagine that most of John Kerry's wealth is in trusts, which he may have little or no control over, even if he is the beneficiary.

The issue of politicians making personal loans to their campaigns is tricky. Mrs. Clinton is seriously in debt, and I believe that she will be unable to pay her debts incurred to run for President -- to herself or anyone else -- from her Senatorial campaign funds while she is still a Senator. After she leaves office, she may do what she likes with her Senatorial campaign funds.

There is much talk around the wealthy having an unfair advantage in politics because of their own resources, but I question how much those financial resources are directly utilized. I think the unfair advantage may come more from their friends, as well as their friends ability to network and gather together larger numbers of people who can make maximum contributions in cash, as well as soft dollars.

[dot king]

"This year, the better value seemed to be spending money on the house, since tradesmen have lowered their rates, given the sluggish economy."
LEX
Yup, this year's holiday money went on some home improvement plus whatever I was capable of tackling myself - not sure about the lowered rates though - I signed a devis last Autumn for work that went ahead in early July and on it there was a paragraph allowing for a rise in "matières premières" prices, but there was only a difference of €20 in the end, thank goodness. The gardener cut back the creeper free (un geste commercial) promising a devis for "une bonne taille" of everything (which means I will think I've come home to the wrong house basically), with "apport de terre et engrais". Hmm, can hardly wait to see it . . .

[Daniel Strohl]

Richard,

No problem with "ein Immerdummkerfli' - in Mulhouse and the Sundgau region at the extreme south of Alsace, the dialect is very close to Schwyzerdütsch - here in Colmar, the dialect is somewhat more "civilized" i.e understandable :)

There are 5 variants of Alsatian dialects : francique rhénan lorrain, francique méridional palatin, bas-alémanique bas-rhinois, bas-alémanique haut-rhinois, haut-alémanique du Sundgau (Source : Proverbes et dictons d'Alsace par Raymond Matzen, Directeur de l'Institut de Dialectologie Alsacienne Strasbourg)

PS : I was very pleased this morning when I opened our letter box and found your post card from Greece. Thank you very much !

[richard.jones]

M. Strohl,

Very, very pleased your card arrived. I did promise/threaten when you posted your address.

Please keep it and watch with me the Russian resurgence I mentioned therein - it will be about May 2009 in the Czech EU presidency, and to do with the Czech's missile shield radar screwing up something in Russia, the Poles polluting the Baltic with their off the coast shield orb thing and the Lithuanians being 'nasty' to one of their Russian minority, caught riding a bike without lights.

I was surprised how many dialects you have - 3 based on a Germanic subset and two French-oriented patois.

There are, according to La Chancellerie Fédérale de la Suisse 86 clear Schwyzerdeutsch dialects,
at least 10 are in one canton, le Valais, of which all other Swiss-Germans maintain they understand nothing.

M.Jones,

I hope you are wrong with the Russian resurgence and the problems to be expected with minorities and missile shield & radar. But I am not over-optimistic too ...

BTW, the US with their East-European missile shield and arming of Georgia did (in my opinion) unwisely provoke the Russians and did grossly underestimate their reaction, although they should have been aware that they were not in a position, due to overstreched forces, including in economic matters, to checkmate the Russians on their "own" ground. Et avec Saakachvili, ils ont misé sur le mauvais cheval ...

But let us come to a less controversial matter : dialects. As far as I am aware, the two Alsatian "francique" dialects are also based on a Germanic subset (francique = fränkisch, Franken, les Francs). And contrary to our Swiss neighbours, we do not need talented overbrained multidialectal interpreters to communicate between our "Ostmark départements" Bas-Rhin & Haut-Rhin + Moselle :)

More seriously, there is a French-oriented patois (Welsch) in the Vosges, in some villages (Orbey, Aubure ...) close to Colmar, on the so-called "versant alsacien des Vosges".

PS : one of my school friends studied Latin and Greek (she became later professeur de lettres). She undertook with her brother a trip to Greece, where she expected to come through with her "grec ancien" (she was very good at it). But as far as I am able to remember - it was about 50 years back - it didn't help a lot. Did you have a similar experience or is my memory wrong ? (this happens :)

[richard.jones]

Basically true Mr. Strohl, I assume, as you have taken on the cloak of anonymity in your last post, ancient Greek does not afford much help to modern Greek. However, Katharevousa, the written and formally spoken version of modern Greek, a much more complex form, carrying many more inflections and dare I say it a wider vocabulary is often aided by Ancient Greek, although you run the risk of changes in gender (to meet the new Demotic simplification rules) and prononciation (especially vowels), and the way you scribe them.
In Demotiki, everyday spoken Greek, which as a language that builds new words by describing the meaning using old words (not alone here -German and Welsh too) produces long words which are often shortened in common speech, has less relation to Ancient Greek.
Nevertheless there are two general areas of help. First the second meaning of a word - wine is krassi but secondly oinos(oynos) - an ancient word, using the second word will get u what u want with a second glance in most tavernas. There is also more commonality and communality with Demotiki verbs, although the conjugations and tense formations will be different.
Lastly, as far as I'm concerned, the new simplified Demotiki has actually made people of the ordinary human condition much more interested in their linguistic roots.

[Valentin]

I'm not sure where exactly - Wikipedia, maybe?... but I do remember reading about great similarities between ancient and modern Greek, to the point where this language, one of the oldest (and oldest attested in writing) in the world, was also a miracle of continuity throught the millenia. I wonder if someone educated can read ancient Greek right out.

[Gill]

For Richard Jones:
I was interested to read your comments about the number of Schwyzerdeutsch dialects. Some years ago I visited the bi-lingual town of Biel/Bienne in Switzerland. When I checked into my hotel the reception staff spoke to me in German and I responded in the same language. When the folowing morning I addressed them in German they spoke to me in French. This went on throughout my stay with all the staff switching languages as if they were constantly trying to catch me out. It certainly kept me on my toes. The main difficulty, however, was in the local department store. Before approaching an assistant I tried to hear if they were a German or a French speaker and spoke to them accordingly. They would invariably reply in Schwyzerdeutsch before eventually relenting and switching to French or German. Very trying and very tiring.

[Daniel Strohl]

Mr. JONES,

Thank you for the detailed explanations. I am really interested in languages. In the present case of ancient vs modern Greek, my memory seems to have worked reasonably well :)

"Cloak of anonymity " :)) - in fact, I used today for the first time a new browser released yesterday by Google. It is called CHROME and eventhough it is a "beta" version, it seems to be quite intelligent ... But of course not intelligent enough to fill in the name and address boxes of the posts !

VALENTIN,

As far as I am concerned, I am not able to read out ancient Greek (or Latin by the way) since I had chosen another "filière" at school. This was a mistake, since the maths I learned (moderately :) were almost of no use for me in my professional career (telecommunications, electronics, semiconductor industry).

However, our "professeur de français" was a very good teacher. We learned thanks to him the main Greek and Latin roots - this helps a lot when one encounters unknown words, for instance in medical matters.

AZLOON,

Beta is used in French in the same meaning as in English ("beta version"). But if somebody calls you a "bêta", this is not meant as a compliment ! It means that you are dumb ...

[Gill]

How I wish I had learnt Latin and Greek. At my school we were allowed to learn only two languages. French was compulsory and I chose German as my second. I have frequently regretted that I was not allowed to learn latin as well as it would have helped so much in learning other languages and even in understanding the meaning of more obscure words in English much of which has latin roots. Perhaps now that I am retired (early retirement, Dot :) ) I should try to find time to take classes or self-teach.

[richard.jones]

Mr. Strohl,

As there is little happening, a parenthesis. As I said previously Greek agglutinates new words. A good example (and the ancient Greek is visible) is the word for hotel Xenodoxos.
Xeno - foreigners, visitors, people from afar.
(O)do(s) - a street, avenue
(E)xo(s) - off of, out of
Thus a place to put foreigners that keeps them off the street.

Gill,

In Biel/Bienne there are a couple of really nice little 'rules'. The street names at the lake end are in French first then German, at the other it is reversed.
Trains at la gare - der bahnhof are announced in French first from 00:01 - 12:00 and German first from 12:01 - 00:00. I will always remember having a coffee in a Migros there listening to a fairly animated argument (local politics) between two middle-aged gentlemen. One was flipping between good Swiss Romande french and the Fribourg pâtois: the other between high German and the local Schwyzerdeutsch variant. At no times did they speak the same language.

Valentin,

I would suspect that the Wicked Wiki of the Week is referring more to things etymological than spoken language bridges. It is very true that prefixes and suffiial additions before the inflection are closely related between the ancient and modern (spoken and written), indeed these particles of the language are to be seen in most European tongues, although they are sometimes the victims of misinterpretation from the ancient.
The commonest of these is anti (against in terms of volition or attitude) and ante (against in geographical, spacial, hierarchical terms - like contre-maître). We see the island Anti-Paros written thus when it should be Ante-Paros etc..
So, we are all au fait with pano, kato, meso, meta, bi, tri, geo, topo, pro and so on. Many of these of course dripped into Latin, facilitated by even in the days of the Republic most civil servants used Greek as their discursive language.
So there is collusion in these areas but basically a knowledge of Ancient Greek helps little with day to day linguistic challenges on a bustling, noisy, hot Athens dromo (another word for street)

[dot king]

"Perhaps now that I am retired (early retirement, Dot :) )" GILL

Me too, just.

BTW I did French and German, had done 3 years of Latin and have now forgotten everything I ever did in that language, so I don't know how much it helped me master French.
Unfortunately, it's the John Lennon version that remains: amo amas amat amamus amatis aminibus :)

[richard.jones]

Well Dot and Vadrouille (Strohl),

Funny you should mention this Latin bit because the EU Commissioner of Multilinguism (a Rumanian) is looking at this issue right now, albeit in terms of an appreciation of the language's etymological influence on present (or maybe pluperfect) day European languages. I have said my tuppence worth - he should look at the Greco-Roman legacy, including the Greco saline drip into Latin.

M. Strohl - sorry bout di joke :-)

There was a question raised in another thread I think about the ability to read Ancient Greek straight from a text. Well I'm going to test it. Here in Athens I teach 'Civilisation' - the meaning, richness and impact of Greco-Latin culture on our culture, technology and socio-politics today, twice a week at a multi-national school I helped kick off in the 1959.
I only do 4 lessons a week now and will stop after Christmas. I do Class 11 only now. I will take a piece of Hesiod or Herodutus, a historical commentator, rather than a poet or a dramatist and transliterate a simple passage into Latin script - say 100 to 200 words and see what I get from the kids. If you're interested in the results keep gently reminding me in any thread - eg COURGE - Can one usually read Greek easily - and I will publish the results, si le Baron du Marais nous permet. My class has 8 kids, 4 of each sex, all kids speak Modern Greek but do not necessarily write it well or at all, 5 kids are Anglophone, one has Amharic, 2 are Francophone and one is very good at pottery. Let's see if we can get to the marrow of the issue.

[Daniel Strohl]

"M. Strohl - sorry bout di joke :-)"

No problem - I am always the first to laugh at a joke (even if it is "à mes dépens"), of course if I am fast-minded enough to get it on the fly ...

"We see the island Anti-Paros written thus when it should be Ante-Paros"

May be inhabitants of close-by islands don't like their neigbours of (Anti)-Paros ...

PS : in another post, you quoted the word "oynos" (wine in ancient Greek) - it just struck me that it is probably the root of "oenology" (root which my above mentioned teacher omitted to teach us ...). Another word related to wine which I still have in memory is "retsina" (I never visited Greece, but may be 30 years ago, I appreciated retsina in a Greek restaurant in Germany).

[Gill]

Daniel, thanks for your comments. No wonder I found it confusing. Perhaps what I thought was Schwyzerdeutsch because I couldn't understand it was, in fact, one or more of the other dialects.

[Lex]

"One was flipping between good Swiss Romande french and the Fribourg pâtois: the other between high German and the local Schwyzerdeutsch variant. At no times did they speak the same language."

I went to boarding school with a girl who had grown up in Mexico City. Her mother was French, her father German. In family life, her mother spoke only German, her father only French, and she only English. It was quite amusing to listen to them conversing. Other than that, they were quite excentric.

A typical Boston story: The other day I was coming out of the coffee shop and returning to my store. A young man and woman -- who I had not seen -- where walking behind me on the street. For two blocks I could hear their conversation. By their accents, I could tell that she was definately a native German speaker, and he was definately from India, though they both spoke perfect and beautiful English. As I turned to go into my shop, I saw them for the first time: she was very dark skinned of African origin, and he was Chinese.

Oh...one more. I had gone into the coffee shop (Yes, I spend allot of time there. There is even a drink that bears my name.) and in the corner were sitting two young women and a young man. One of the women looked Erirtrean, the other two were white. While I was waiting for my order, I could hear them talking. The man and one of the women had American accents, and the other woman -- which one I didn't know -- had the accent of a well educated, middle-class Londoner. The British woman said something, and the man replied, "Oh, you English!" The British woman said, "English! English! I'm not English, I'm British!" "What's the difference?" the man asked. She replied, "You have to be white to be English."

[Gill]

From what you say, Dot, perhaps my language skills would not have been any better with the help of latin. It would, however, have helped me in the past with some of the clues to the Times crossword although it's not as necessary nowadays as the crossword has been dumbed down a bit. Times readers are no longer expected to have a knowledge of the classics (or of classic literature).

[richard.jones]

Gill - dead write.

Times clues - no need for any kind of knowledge now!
Old clue, best I ever saw, no classical knowledge needed!

HIJKLMNO (5 letters)

[azloon]

[but may be 30 years ago, I appreciated retsina in a Greek restaurant in Germany).] Daniel

if you like retsina, Daniel, you'll love paint thinner.

[Valentin]

"I am not able to read out ancient Greek " (D Strohl)

"basically a knowledge of Ancient Greek helps little with day to day linguistic challenges on a bustling, noisy, hot Athens dromo" (R Jones)

I was actually wondering whether an *educated* *Greek national* can read ancient Greek. Modern day languages are farther and farther from their normalized use - one coming to France with 10-year school knowledge of French as a foreign tongue can be unable of a simple conversation, pointed as they are of shifts in form and meaning, abbreviations, anglicisms, jargon terms and other modern stuff.

[richard.jones]

Azloon,

Mr. Strohl's encounter with retsina 30 years ago would have been in the period when there was no control over what can in places like Crete and Kephalonia be a 'home brew'.
As you say some of these brews were akin to paint thinner in taste and alcoholic content.
Since 1989 things have changed. You can still home brew but must register and are subject to quality inspection, which if you fail, brings a fine of €5,000. Thus the quality has improved and just recently has taken an enormous step forward as we see the return of many diasporic Greeks, on their retirement, from the Nappa valley; the Australian and South African equivalents. Many of these men have engaged in improving the Greek wine industry and in a short time have had enormous success. They are now turning their skilled hands and trained brains to retsina, raki and ouzo. There are now two or three excellent retsina on the market - check the label and see if the resin source and % are mentioned. If they are not don't buy it.
Retsina is of course very, very ancient and goes back to at least 1500b.c. It was an enormous trade between the Greeks and the Phenicians who traded from Denmark and UK, Dakar and the whole Mediterranean. The Phenicians carried water but wine as a long-term reserve against finding none or brackish water on landing. To stop the wine turning a coat of resin was floated on top of the wine in the amphora which was sealed but not hermetically. The phenicians went further and had a water buoyancy device for the wine amphoras so that they did not pitch or roll when at sea.
Next time in Greece order sifias ke skordelia me retsina - swordfish and garlic sauce with retsina (check the label tho' like I said).

PS Waiting for Dick Cheney to kick Jaap de Hoop Scheffer's ass out of NATO today.

[Gill]

Richard, the clue you mention is rather apposite bearing in mind the subject of of Charles' latest post.

[Daniel Strohl]

AZLOON,

"If you like retsina, Daniel, you'll love paint thinner".

LOL ! When I am thirsty, I appreciate (almost :) everything.

PS : Be careful, Azloon, you might get in trouble with our Greek friend(s) ...

[richard.jones]

Gill,

Brilliant and you have not divulged the answer either. It's a great clue because you mutter the intermediate answer to yourself a hundred frustrating times before your mutter gets it - well right!!

[richard.jones]

Valentin,

I have already proposed, based on a question from M. Strohl, to run one test under the COURGE (Can one usually read Greek easily) umbrella. I will undertake another for you, although I'm pretty sure of the answer already.
I have already taken a short stab of Herodotus and transliterated it into Latin script - as my taverna order in my note to Azloon - for my 'Civilisation' class.
I will take the same (no need to transliterate of course) and ask a sample of my island council (M. Strohl has the postcard) for a transmogrification into Demotiki when we meet to submit our development budget to the Ministry next Tuesday. I will pick 5 who are graduates of Greek or other universities and a second 5 who were educated (High School) on the island itself. I will also ask who they think the author is. I will do it fairly but I predict the following.
3 or 4 will give me a 90%+ interpretation.
Another 2 or 3 will give me a 75%+ interpretation.
Another 1 or 2 will just give me odd words.
2 or 3 will know the author.
1 or 2 will use it as toilet paper after screaming at me that I am insulting their intelligence.
The COURGE results for the 'Civilisation' class will be known by Monday evening and for 'Master Minds' on Tuesday late.

[Valentin]

Sounds quite interesting, do keep us posted. Which island is that?

[azloon]

Richard Jones --

unfortunately, this news about breakthroughs in the manufacture of retsina comes too late for me. i've been off the sauce for most of the last six years and if i were to come out of retirement, it would be with a marguerita, a vodka martini or a glass of estate-bottled bordeaux.....or all three....or several of all three. but probably not retsina.

i associate retsina with the throwing of dinner plates into restaurant fireplaces around alexandropolis in the 1960s as voluptious greek beauties belly-danced nearby to bouzouki music.

but my memory gets blurry after that.

[richard.jones]

Azloon,

Dear boy you are behind the times. Throwing glasses and breaking plates is now illegal (1981) I think.
They tried to get round it by producing special 'throwing plates' you good purchase from the taverna at Dr.100 a go. They did shatter but not into sharp, abrasive, dangerous shards.
Retsina is now classified as wine and I see new rules that the alcohol content may not be more than
20%. Don't forget at the start of time the pine resin (retsina) was put in the wine as a preservatif (no polyglot joke here BTW).

[richard.jones]

Valentin,

In an effort to safeguard my wife's cultural heritage from boorish tourism of the English, Teutonic and Nordic lout variety I do not give out the name.
However it is at the Cretan end of the Dodecanese, about 25km by 6km and is probably the island of the Cyclops in the Odyssey.
@M.Strohl aussi. I will publish the COURGE rsults on this thread early Wednesday.

[Gill]

Richard, if no polyglot joke was intended perhaps it would have been better to use the English spelling of preservative or the French conservateur/agent de conservation :).

[dot king]

GILL, RICHARD, Retsina at more than 20% was probably a very effective "préservatif" in any "glot" of the word :)

[richard.jones]

Gill,

When I was in the French Army a préservatif was a condom, a Johnny, a Durex or whatever word you would like to use.
My spelling was phonetic, I did look at it afterwards and think it was wrong but banged on regardless.
At my stage of life one does fall prey to the gin traps of linguistic conusfion from time to time.

[Gill]

Richard, Yes I did think after I posted my comment that because you have a command of so many languages it may have been an innocent slip. It is so easy to get confused when switching from one to the other.

[Gill]

Richard, on another thread on this blog I related how I bought my property in France. I had had some written correspondence with the notaire and when we attended one of our final meetings he congratulated me on my French letters. It was difficult for the English contingent present to keep straight faces:)

[richard.jones]

Gill,

Yes, you're right and Americans call them condominiums!

[richard.jones]

The nature of this blog’s schema makes tabulation nigh impossible.
However, here is the first part of my COURGE study.

The sample was 9 students in my year 11 ‘Civilisation’ class. 5 of the students were born in Greece, all have Demotiki Greek to at least ‘O’level iGCSE level and 3 will have no problem passing Greek at the later and more advanced IB diploma level. Only the last three can be said to have some clue of Katharevousa (written and oratorical Greek – more complex, more inflections)
Of the 9 students 5 are English mother tongue – 3 Americans – 1 erudite Scot and 1 brilliant Welsh lad (facts these  - no subjectivity involved)): 2 are Francophones – 1 Belgian (and very noisily so too!) and 1 Lyonnais: 1 is Ethiopian and has Amharic, Arabic, Farsee, English and a wonderful Italian will the full girare of that tongue – 1 is mother tongue Chinese we think but other Chinese (Hong Kong students in the school) say not – some English, some French, good striongly rural Demotiki – fantastic potter.

I gave them the short piece (Herodotus – ancient Greek transliteration into latin alphabet – 231 words long) and told them they had 15 minutes to prepare a short reclaim as to its meaning in Demotiki, or a written statement in Demotiki, complete with the author’s name.

Sample table

Shows their mother tongue, sex, demotiki grades, Katheverousa grades (if), choice of written answer or spoken.

# MT Sex Demo Kath Write Spkn
A E M A- - X
B E F B+ - X
C E F A B- X
D E M A A- X
E E M B - X
F F F B - X
G F F A+ A X
H Amh F A+ A+ X X
I Chn?M B- - X

Results table
Shows their answer method, marks and why and if they knew the author.

# Sed/Writ Mrk Hrodtus Remarks
Ans Y/N
A Spkn C N Got all the
place names.
Knew there
was a war.
B Writ B N Place names –
war gin
Thebes-Seven
other polises
v. Thebes.
100 years
before
Trojan War.
Impact of
marsh disease.
C Writ D N Abject panic
D Writ C- Y As B Got the
seven gates
issue but
not the
seven armies,
or timeline.
E Spkn D N Place names
but thought
it was part
of the list
of polises
that signed
up for the
Trojan War
(Iliad–Bk4)
F Spkn D- N Complete
phantasy
G Writ B+ Y As B but
return of
Jason detail
as well. Said
author was
Herodutus
period
Psiriarsis –
gave mark!
H Both A Y Gave authors
birth and
death dates.
Told me
what Jason
wore and
why. Picked up
reference to
Oedipus.
I Spk B+ Y As B but gave
me pottery
evidence
references for
Theban War.

Summary

Gives student ratings and tries to deduce some knowledge basis for success.

Ps # Grd Dem Kav Other scripts
than Lat
or Cyrllic
1 H A Y Y Y
=2 G B+ Y Y N
=2 I B+ Y N Y ?
3 B B Y N N
4 A C Y N N
5 D C- Y Y N
=6 C D Y Y N
=6 E D Y N N
7 F D- Y N N

Katharavousa seems to matter little. A perception of other scripts seems to help however. Overall I was surprised how well they did. I expected 6 or 7 blank minds and papers.
Perhaps there is amongst the ‘educated’ a little more of a language bridge than I thought – but a little more only.

Adult and educated Greek mother tonguers tomorrow in this same thread. Pointer in the EDVIGE thread (permission to access from CB first :-))