Back to the future with the old superpower

As the sun rose over a hot Moscow this morning, it was hard not to imagine that we are in the remake of an old movie. I was criticized by some here yesterday for making the cold war comparison, but it’s difficult to escape.

The radio I was listening to was not the old Radio Moscow of Soviet days. But Vesti FM, all jingles and sizzle, opened the morning news with an attack on the United States for fanning the flames of cold war via the Caucasus. The Georgian attack on South Ossetia was part of a plot masterminded by Dick Cheney, the Vice-President, we were told. The war-mongering neo-conservatives are using it to get the Republican John McCain elected to the White House in November. The Washington plot line, widespread in Moscow commentary this week, was last heard in the days of Presidents Andropov and Reagan.

The world is a different place since those times a quarter of a century ago, but the plot is familiar. The Russians are using military power to assert their authority over troublesome small neighbours in their “near abroad”. The Americans are flexing their muscles and trying push the frontiers of the Atlantic alliance eastward – this time into the Caucasus, a region which Russia has for centuries deemed to be its back yard.

As President Bush ordered the US military to take humanitarian relief into Georgia, Condaleezza Rice, the Secretary of State, made a direct comparison: 

“This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia, where Russia can threaten its neighbours, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it. Things have changed.” Just like the old days, the tough stance in Washington is making the Europeans nervous.

The old-style language is all over the Russian media, voicing defensiveness and anger over what is seen as bullying by what used to be the other super-power. “The West has spent a lot of time, energy and money to teach Georgia the tricks of the trade … to make the country look like a democracy,” said Vasily Mikhachev, a former Russian ambassador to the EU. “We and many other nations see through this deceit. We understand that the seditious tactics of the so-called colour revolutions are a real threat to international law and the source of global legal nihilism.”

Last night, Sergei Lavrov, the Foreign Minister, a blustering but suave type, said Washington had been playing a "dangerous game" .

This time around, the Russians have more ammunition for the war of words since the Washington administration has put raw ideology high in its own public communications effort for years – especially over Iraq, as Russian friends keep pointing out. One friend made a sharp point: "In the old days under Soviet rule we didn't believe a word of our own propaganda but we thought that information was free in the west. We admired that and wanted to be like that. But we have learned since that you have your own propaganda and in some ways it is more powerful because people believe it. "

So how does this play out ? While most outsiders agree that Russia reacted with calculated brutality to Georgia’s attack on South Ossetia last week, there is disagreement on the way the west should respond.

It’s the old hawks and doves argument again. The old Soviet bloc states of Europe are behind Washington and pushing for a hard line against their old master. Other Europeans and some Americans believe that Washington’s drive for Georgia’s Nato membership and a US s anti-missile shield have needled Moscow too much. I was talking to Carlo Gallo, a Russia specialist at Control Risk yesterday. The US would be making a mistake to revert to a policy of containment – the old cold war policy, he said. “It would backfire and play into the hands of hardliners who argue that the west is always conspiring against Russia.” You hear the same from the French, who are trying to play the role of honest broker.

Meanwhile, down in the Caucasus, the hot part of the little war is not yet over. The Russians are reported to be starting to pull out of the Georgian town of Gori – - meeting one of President Bush’s demands yesterday. And Condoleezza Rice is about to arrive in Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, to bolster a government that President Medvedev of Russia calls barbaric and a perpetrator of genocide.

Comments

[Liam Jones]

Well done Russia. Georgia is a US puppet on Russia's backdoor who was trying to get more control and got deservedly swatted. Imagine the US's response if Cuba tried to retake part of its island occupied by the US, this time right on Americas backdoor. To think the cold war ever really ended is naive. Its just in the upper rounds of a long fight with the US economically and morally weaker than ever.

[Rocket]

Funny how the Russians are beginning to pull out only after C. Rice's reinterated commitment to Georgia last night and American troops on a humanitarian mission on the ground in Georgia this morning

As France 2 television said yesterday on their 13:00 edition

"Evidemment un succès diplomatique français."

Evidemment!

CB

"You hear the same from the French, who are trying to play the role of honest broker."

I would say moreso "who are trying to preserve the flow of oil to Europe at the expense of maintaining the Georgian pipeline and upsetting the dictator Putin.

By the way. Who was the only western leader to congratulate Putin on the Party's last victory in elections last December.

http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/07/12/05/10172529.html

Oh, I'm sorry, who said that Beijing deserved a gold medal for their organization of the Olympics.

[Anton]

US even failed to lower it's embassy flag in Moscow in respect to Russia's day or mourning yesterday, in memory of 2000 russian civilians slaughtered in one day by georgian regime, trained and armed by US. Women and chilren were burned alive in churches, rolled over by tanks etc. All in the name of "democracy" by a "beacon of liberty". Does it get any more cynical than that? Do russians and ossetians are people with inferior rights to live than americans or british? Remember 9/11! Putin was the first to call and offer condolences and help.

[paul]

From a British perspective consider the British presence in Northern Ireland over the last 50 years, and the reactions of the south (including a planned invasion!) Are the British elite truly objective ?

[Victoria]

Russia has a right to protect its citizens. Russian peacekeepers were in Ossetia on the UN mandate. The Georgians all of a sudden started a slaughter, attacked Russian peacekeepers and Ossetian (or their own???) civilians.
If a person kills another person, presumably he/she goes to jail. If one person orders to kill 1600 civilians, he gets "Oh poor freedom-fighter, little Georgian leader against the Russian evil monstre, let's support him". It's like human brain is not able to deal with that figures. Georgian president is a war criminal and he must be arrested. Russia is not USSR anymore, but it was in Ossetia to stop the slaughter while UN Security Council was dissapointedly inefficient just as other European structures. 1600 dead is the price Saakashvili was happy to pay for mas-media promotion and "evil Russia" image creation. This is awful,this should not repeat.

[Peter]

It looks like the war in Iraq is a real problem, in terms of PR. If you elevate one imaginary threat to the level of real, then the real threat can get "relativised" to that of an imaginary one. The underlying problem however is the following. After the fall of Communism, the Russians never were brought to account for the Communist era like the Nazi's were at Nuremburg. And until this happens, the free world will encounter these types of episodes. It does feel like history will repeat itself.

[victor]

Saakashvili as well as Stalin and Hitler is calamity and disaster for their nations! But Saakashvili and Ushenko(Ukraine) are servants of bloody politicians from US and they make what wants these monsters.

[Dodo]

Thank you for your article. I am not always in agreement with your opinion, but I found this one interesting and well balanced.

The lesson Europeans - i.e. people and not politicians, journalists or diplomats – have learned is: neither the USA, nor Russia are trustworthy.
Both are true dangers. It is time for Europeans from “Old” to “New” Europe to think what is important for them: Europe.

Russians and Americans can find another play-ground where to play their war: Cuba for example is a good one: USA can install the Bush’s missile near Miami and Putin his own near La Habana.

[Dodo]

“Funny how the Russians are beginning to pull out only after C. Rice's reinterated commitment to Georgia…..” Posted by: Rocket | 14 Aug 2008 09:03:48

Yes, very very funny. I must say one of the funniest comment I ever read !

[Archie]

It is quite apparant that ex KGB Prime Minister Putin is the real power in the Federation of Russia and he intends to take back what was lost when the USSR was dissolved and ended. President Bush's foreign policies are in shambles and they should of seen this coming because they knew about Putin's ambitions just by the fact that he personally picked his successor as President. Russia is and will be a country to be dealt with in a strong way in the future as with the Democratic Peoples Republic of China. It is very possible that we will be engaged once more in a cold war because of our failed foriegn policies and bad information from our so called intellegence appraratus organization.

[Michel B]

Of course the US propaganda is as bad as the russian's one ! Remember the invasion and occupation of Irak that Americans call " liberation " ( What a joke !), the incredible jingoistic campaign of the anglo-saxon press against France, the so-called " freedom fries " and all that rubbish.
Russia is in his right to give a good punishment to Saakashvili this arrogant american puppet. Russia is a great power and France plus Germany should oppose american attempts to isolate or demonise it

[Simon]

To Peter
If you are taking about of somebody to be brought to account for the Communism I think it has to be the Georgians. Remember Stalin, Beria. They were musterminds of slaughtering millions of people. It is ironic. Sounds like Georgian leaders are notorious of killing others

[Ilya]

oh, yeah, the cold war...interesting comparison, perhaps Russia was to remain silent watching thousands of its citizens dying in Ossetia, perhaps, Russia was to bow before the powers of the West. But Russia did what your troops performed in Serbia in 1999. But Russia, allow me to remind, unlike West, did not start bombing Georgia capital (but West smashed Belgrade), Russia did not destroy Gory, and other Georgian towns while your troops invaded Iraq and killed Saddam. Perhaps Russia's actions were not equal to the situation, but were your actions during these 15 years equal? What have you done to Serbia? Right at the heart of the Europe! What have you done!? You prefer to remain silent as to situation in Ossetia! Have you talked to children who saw tanks mincing their mothers? Have you talk to people whose homes were destroyed in night by your HOLY MIKHEIL? Have you? It so easy to sit in Moscow in one on the suits in the best hotel and write articles about Russia. But when Bush invaded Iraq, you were silent, when Serbia was bombed, you were silent, when Ossetia's people were burnt you remained silent, perhaps it is time for you to remain silent too? For Mr President of Georgia is a lunatic idiot who thought he could solve the problem as easy as your bosses solved Kosovo problem. Two thousand are dead. Can you imagine this 2000 people. Unfortunately the status quo can not be accepted for who will return these 2000 lives? Who will give children's lives back? Perhaps Mr Bush? Perhaps you? Dostoyevsky used to say that there is nothing in this world which is worth a child's tear. Think iver it when writing about the democracy and Human Rights in EU, USA. Think of it.

[christopher muir]

As he left Beijing behind him, Putin was possibly drawing up a shopping list that looked something like this.

Pipeline (nyet). Missile shields (nyet). NATO (nyet). Bolster my strong-man image (da). Heighten patriotism (da). Needle Ukraine (da).

NB- Telephone Medvedev sometime soon.

[Jonathan Jarvis]

And for what reason exactly does Moscow plan to build five new aircraft carriers?Domination of Polar regions, Black Sea, Baltics?Re Ukraine/Crimea, is Moscow deliberately daily conflagrating very many recent and daily tensions there, accusations of arms supply to Georgia(anti-aircraft missles and aircraft so far unco-oberated),NATO, prospective Black Sea shelf gas, "difficulties" over Black Sea Fleet highlighted at Sevastopol, Moscow "very surprised" at recent events, hatred of a colour country?. There is an old saying that west /east divide is at the River Dnieper in Ukraine, how much would Moscow claim, back to the old Polish and Lithuanian territorial borders?Is Gori our new "Stalin-grad" to play on words , as then and there the Russians turned back the Germans seeking Baku oil supplies because the Germans were unable to sustain supply connections-interesting ironies now?What does Aizerbaijhan and other oil exporters of the region say about recent events, no word yet from them.

[Mark Collins]

A lot has been made about the presence of Russian 'peacekeepers' in South Ossetia. This is like having foxes in charge of the hen coup or Taliban 'peacekeepers' in Pakistan or Afghanistan. Let's face it - 'peacekeepers' are supposed to be impartial, not acting as military advisers to a belligerent Ossetian militia. What was happening in South Ossetia was a straightforward Russian protection racket.

[Big cowboy boots]

How sad that all these Russian apologists in Europe are just covering up their own cowardice opposing a nation that has saved Europe on countless occasions.

Sad pathetic effete cowards all of you. Too bad the end of Europe is within sight and you're too busy shouting down your American betters to realize it.

Soon you'll be answering to the unchecked Muslim hoardes you've coddled within your own borders. the really pathetic thing is that then you'll expect America to save you yet again. I say let the Muslims destroy you. Good riddance.

[Judy]

Russian Government brutality is limitless, but unfortunately not surprising. Just short remind of Russia's invasion history: Azerbaijan, Armenia -1920, Poland -1939, Baltic states -1940, Finland-1940, Hungary-1956, Chekhoslovakia- 1968, Afganistan-1979, Georgia - 1921, 1991-93, 2008

[Sergei]

I notice one thing. The west press practically sinks that the war was between South Ossetia and Georgia. If so, I have one question: “In all probability, West has confessed South Ossetia and Abkhazia independent countries?”

[ItDoesntMatter]

Its typical US, who thinks only they have the last say in everything. I'm not for war, but I'm against US view of an unilateral world where the only superpower is the US. Russia did what it thought to be right. US does that all the time.

[Martin Carnaffin]

Some of the statements and comparisons in these comments are blatantly absurd.
Russia is up to it's old tricks again which is hardly surprising because the KGB are still in charge.
The population of Georgia are obviously Georgian - even if Russia has been handing out passports like confetti. If they wish to become Russian it is only logical that they go and live on Russian territory.
Russia obviously wants to recreate it’s sphere of influence.
We've obviously caved in because we need Russian oil and gas.
We're weak, Russia is strong and Putin is showing us he can do what he likes, that's what this is about.
The question we really should be asking is who’s next.

[Daisy]

I don't think Bush and Rice are in any position to lecture any other nation about invading a sovereign nation.

If Russia moved into the US backyard, the US would have done the same thing. Heck, they've been known to assassinate leaders who harboured communist/pro-russian sympathies.

Condoleeza Rice has to be one of the most useless people on planet earth! She and her crew have taken US foreign policy into the gutter. Their arrogance breathtaking. This woman is supposed to be a Russia specialist. She, of all people, should understand the Russian culture and character and know that lecturing them is not the way to resolve this crisis.

Seriously, when have the French ever been "honest brokers" in anything? Sarkozy is desperately trying to make France seem like a first tier power, which it is decidely not. His presence in Moscow was due entirely to the coincidence of him holding the EU presidency.

I said it yesterday, I'll say it again: this is a pissing contest between the Russians and the Americans. The French should stay home.

[peter]

This would have all been avoided if the US would not have tried stealing 15% of Serbia's territory (KOSOVO) and handing it to a bunch of Albanian Muslims. The Albanians are NOT independent but instead simply allowed to be there by the US while the US set up its largest military base in Europe. John Bolton (Bush's own hand pick to the UN) warned that this was a horrible illegal policy that would only cause severe problems more independence bids around the world INCLUDING the one in Georgia. All the US needed to do was talk to the Serbs and they could have got all the oil routes they wanted without stealing part of their country which only 40 nations recognize. Now, we have Moscow flexing its muscles using the United States actions in Kosovo as the pretex to what it is doing. In the end, it is Serbia and Georgia who have been urinated on by two superpowers who are playing a dangerous game that unfortunately the United States started! Don't call me a Russian lover, I am a conservative Republican who saw this was a dangerous Elmer Fudd Foreign policy from the beginning and Daffy "George" Duck is seeing it through. END OF STORY.

[Abe]

Excellent! Putting historical facts into perspective shows an intelligently-written and unbiased article. One thing I think is missing; however, is illustrating the distinction between Iraq and Georgia--I see so many making the comparison when there is NO comparison. The war in Iraq is backed by a dozen UN resolutions. South Ossetia is internationally recognized as part of Georgia. There is no reason whatsoever other than aggression and expansion that Russia would invade Georgia. It sadly amazes me to see people high-fiving the Russians for killing thousands of innocent people because they somehow see this as “payback” against America!

[Denis]

to Mark Collins
Impartial peacekeepers as they were impartial in Kosovo? They just escaped when Albanians killed Serbians. Where can you find impartial peacekeepers?

[Elin]

It's just a political game! innocent people dead. What for? For PR Saakashvil?
US try to get on with Russia neighbors, to have their own people in goverment, to infringe by them Russia's rights.
NATO lost its main aim.
We are against the war. Cold War also.

[Daisy]

Interesting article in today's New York Times about the negotiations and the "ceasefire" agreement.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/world/europe/14document.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

[Travis]

This is just like the annexation of Sudetenland by Nazi Germany in 1938.

Germany (Russia) felt that the Sudetenland (South Ossetia) should be under thier control and rule because of the people living in that area even though they were part of a differant sovereign nation, Czechoslovakia (Georgia).

You people need to study history a little bit more. If you remember, there was a war after that because the "West" didn't do anything to stop it. What was that war called again???

Hmmm...

Oh yeah... World War II...

Wake up people...

[Azat]

I've read all posts here and concluded that you know nothing. Many people accuse Russia. Why? From second world war when we've won Hitler all Europe was against us, every time everywhere. USA helped to destroy USSR, how many nations was friends, including Georgians and all nations of Russia, not Russians only. And for example USA submarine has sunk our nuclear-powered submarine, we kept silence because it was beginning of Nuclear War between Russia and USA, end of world. Ok, USA has paid money, but how many people was dead. And now when americans appoint puppet government in georgia and want to control our west borders and put there nuclear rockets why must we keep a silence? When americans wants to occupy our contry we'll not be keep a silence. we'll be reply and it will be hard. Americans and NATO, Hands off Russia! And Europeans, open your eyes, you're puupets of america, and you're working for USA, for Federal reserve System).

[Denis]

to Travis
You need to study history, it was not Russia, but USSR. And it's most bloody leader (Stalin) were Georgian, by the way.

[infocyde]

I think everyone should take a step back. We can't let Russia go about crushing its neighbors, but we must realize that Georgia is in the Russian sphere of influence. We also have to understand that this is about the wealth of Russia, and not Georgia or Otessia (oil pipes are in the break away areas). I think we need to encourage a cease fire with less rhetoric, then we need to completely re-evalute our (America's) foreign policy with Russia. We might be able to give a bit (no missle shield), but at the same time gain (support for freedom of former Soviet client states and friendlier relations with Russia). I don't envy policy makers, there is a lot of mistrust on both sides that is rearing its ugly head, but neither of us wants another cold war, we should be able to work something out, but if push comes to shove, America has to stand up for freedom of democracy (which would be a nice change from corporate globalism). That is why I believe we are a world power. Maybe this should serve as a wake up call to us. America doesn't exist for its corporate hanchos to get 15% raises a year while its middle class goes bankrupt, America exists for a beacon of freedom and stability in the world.

[Dmitri]

This is just like the annexation of Sudetenland by Nazi Germany in 1938.

:) Except for several subtle difference though -- Georgia attacked Ossetia with aviation and heavy artillery when the whole world watched the Olympic ceremony...

And Nazis did not pull back (which Russia hopefully will do).

I'd say it's just like bombing Belgrade by NATO, what's the difference, really?

[Tatiana]

Old-style language is all over the Russian media, really?
Have you read Washington Post or Wall Street Journal recently? Or watched CNN and BBC showing georgian artillery shelling Tskhinvali with the title "Russia invades Georgia"?
May be you should take a careful look at your media first?

[Thanks Tatania, I think I made that point in the post -- that western media can do propaganda too. CB]

[Jamie]

I find the whole situation ludriocus and you have to be narrow minded to believe in the anti US rehtoric. An invasion of this scale is something that cannot be planned overnight. Clearly Russia have been fanning the flames for months and was looking for an excuse.

Hitlers did the samething when he crossed the Rhine.

Are we going to make the same mistake twice?

[Francois D]

To Daisy (1)

"I said it yesterday, I'll say it again: this is a pissing contest between the Russians and the Americans. The French should stay home."

Answer: What contempt .. It is fortunate that Europe begins to awaken .. because letting superpowers face to face leads us straight to disaster.

To Daisy (2)
"Interesting article in today's New York Times about the negotiations and the "ceasefire" agreement."

Yes this article is interesting. It's a remake, nearly word to word, of another published today in Le Figaro:

http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2008/08/14/01003-20080814ARTFIG00020-la-longue-journee-de-mediation-de-sarkozy-.php

Le Figaro (google translation)
".../...The atmosphere was surreal," says a diplomat. And to the surprise of Nicolas Sarkozy, Mikhail Saakashvili did not intend to let it go. "Objectively, Saakashvili had no more room for manoeuvre, but it was more combative than the previous day," a witness of the scene. An adviser "American" focuses on the shoulder of Georgian President and rejects the word "status" in the sentence which proposes "the launch of international negotiations on the status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

That it does. It is past midnight, and Sarkozy calls Medvedev. "Remember tomorrow morning," replied the Kremlin. Nicolas Sarkozy insists. Finally, Dmitri Medvedev is at the end of the line. The French obtained the agreement of his Russian counterpart. On leaving Parliament, Sarkozy crosses the presidents of Ukraine, Baltic and Polish. It is one o'clock in the morning, and the crowd of supporters of Saakashvili has dispersed.".../..."

I hope that you are reassured about the fact that Saakashvili is "well advised".

PS On the official video of the press conference at the Kremlin on Monday, we can see, in several sequences, our friend CB, very serious and careful, not very far from his friend BK ..

http://www.elysee.fr/accueil/

[Arkady]

To Travis.

"You people need to study history a little bit more."

This is a very good point. So, just facts (to study history):
1) 1920 - During the first genocide of Ossetians Georgia killed 20.000 people (http://osgenocide.ru/);
2) 1989-1991 -- Georgians started the second genocide of Ossetians (http://osgenocide.ru);
3) August 8, 00.06 (at night!) -- Georgian artillary began bombardment of Tshinval and surrounding villages: 1600 were killed during one night. In addition, 15 Russian peacekeepers were killed. All of them were alive people with their hopes and joys. What about them?

[Judy]

To Denis,
You simply don't understand the comparison between the Nazi and nowdays Russia, so you better study the history.
Now to all those who back Russia in this bloody actions. South Osetia is old Georgian territory and Georgians have nothing against Osetinas. This is an inspired conflict by Russia to get control on Caucuses. The Russian Government propaganda works perfect to change the facts. Do you know that now when so called agreement was reached Russian troops continue explosions, support marauding and killing civilians.

[Paul 2]

I would be very nervous if I was in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, or Ukraine.
Poland is always wanted by Russians. There are many Russians in USA. Maybe Putin should come and help Patterson,NJ or Brooklyn, NY. Every other Ballet instructor is Russian. Israel has many Russians as well. Maybe Russia can invade Israel and save Iran and Syria?

[rocket]

FrancoisD

"I said it yesterday, I'll say it again: this is a pissing contest between the Russians and the Americans. The French should stay home."

I agree 100% with you. They should stay home, make sure they bring in the cat and dog, lock the doors and seek refuge in the cellar.

[Vit]

TO: Jamie
there is no wonder that such operation was pre-planned. Russia warned the World a few months ago and many times about the plotted Georgia's agression against Osetia. Unfortunately, you ignored this. Of course Russia had to prepare for such course of events. It turned out to be wise. Had Russia delayed rendering help, all the south ossetians would've been killed now.

[Ian Watson]

"...I say let the Muslims destroy you. Good riddance.

Posted by: Big cowboy boots"

Oh, I think it will be your own corrupt leadership that will destroy the US if it isn't too far gone to be salvaged.

Some facts...

Debt: America is in horrendous debt, debt that is held mainly by Russia's ally China, Russia however is not therefore Russia is able quite easily to enter a new arms race and cold war.

Energy: America can supply only 15% of its own critical energy needs, Russia can supply 100% of its critical energy needs and supplies also continental Europe 75% of its critical natural gas.

Military: America is hard pressed to support its endeavours in two small countries, it has a burgeoning naval fleet and incredibly massive overheads whilst pursuing technology projects of little use and such as the Patriot system that are in use have a huge failure rate, Russia has conscription, has advanced its technological lead according to the Pentagon by some 15 years, have proven weapons system in use and can at need call a standing army of many millions.

So all Putin has to do this winter is freeze continental Europe into submission by turning off the gas, he is not compelled to sell it to anyone and China will always buy any surplus.

The people of Poland and Ukraine will also find themselves without power or heat this winter coming and seeing as Iran, Venezuela both allies of Russia will likely follow suit, the economies of Europe will begin to suffer, people will revolt and governments will find themselves stripped of pro US politicians fairly quickly.

America will act in futility, it will threaten and bluster but in the end it will not be able to do a damned thing because it won't be able to threaten Venezuela or Iran as they will both cease oil exports to the west with China buying it all, America's economy will fail at this point because very little will be traded in petrodollars if Venezuela ceases supplying the US, America at this point will be facing a 35% critical shortfall in oil imports at the loss of Venezualan oil alone, with the rest of the west clamouring for oil at this point and Europe offering the more valuable Euro over the worthless dollar, the US will be in a crisis.

And by this time, the rhetoric is cranked up a notch, America threatens China with sanctions to try and break the alliance there, China junks its dollar holdings and overnight the US is dead in the water...

And all without a shot being fired and all at the hands of the US who pulled themselves down into the abyss too.

And as for WWII, the American's only came in once Britain was on its knees and it looked like Hitler consolidating Europe would be far too powerful to stop if he decided to attack the US, it was never done to help Europe or Britain, it was to save themselves and in the process ripping off as much money as they could get, any military analyst would point out also that it was Russia that ended Hitler's war who lost millions of soldiers in taking Hitler down...

So I would appreciate it if Americans would stop asking us over here to be grateful for being ripped off by a people who quite happily stood on the sidelines for two years whilst we starved and were bombed daily.

And a point here that Hitler was put into power by the American elite, it was us here in Europe, it was us here in Britain that took the brunt for American adventurism.

[Daisy]

Francois D:

1] I will take the Times over Le Figaro, which is nothing more than Sarkozy's propaganda machine.

2] "Answer: What contempt .. It is fortunate that Europe begins to awaken .. because letting superpowers face to face leads us straight to disaster."

Hmmm, is this the same Europe that colonised and decimated half the world? That enslaved Africans? That gave the world Hitler and Bonaparte? Is this the same Europe who had to be rescued not once, but twice in the 20th century, from German aggression? Spare me.

[Anastasia]

To ABE
I'm deeply sad to read about Russians "killing thousands of innocent people". I quite understand why CNN is telling the lies about this situation but I do not understand why people make their decisions basing on what their TV says.
I don't know about South Ossetia, but I've been to Abkhazia last summer and I heard their history from the people: how the Georgian Stalin re-joined their republic from Russian SFSR to Georgian SSR (just a small movement inside the enormuos country, who cared?(and who dared to care?)). How the Georgians came and surprisingly forbad using and even teaching at schools on the Abkhazian language. And how their hatred to the new hosts of their native land grew. And that they'd rather be dead than experiencing Georgians mastership again.
It's obvious that Saakashvili had chosen their death. He has his reasons and his morals. I don't think that people should die as Ossetians have. I liked that people very much. Please come and talk to them and then make up your mind.

[DavidSalome]

Vasily Mikhachev, a former Russian ambassador to the EU. “We and many other nations see through this deceit. We understand that the seditious tactics of the so-called colour revolutions are a real threat to international law and the source of global legal nihilism.”
My dear Vasily the big mistake that Putin is doing now is to give to the Europeans and Americans a great chance to strenght NATO until the point to beat you in Ukhrain, Georgia , Baltic States, Moldavia with all our hate, soft power and hard one because Putin succeeds brillantly to make Russians our ennemy again for the next 10 years. And speaking about your allies, I could say as I am Chinese that you are only a power like Saoudie Arabia with trees and your allies ( Kazakstan? )are weak as you are.

[Vit]

Russians declared cease fire before Bush demands. Nobody here gave it a damn. If you feel righteousness in your deeds why should you. Why Russia won? - because the Truth was on our side. Why US lose? - You can brainwash your people, you can even deceive yourself but you can't cheat the Truth.

[Rick]

whatever happens those in power know better than us and media is only their instrument to build public opinion. in these situations we just need to stay smarter and not to get lower to a cattle level.
no matter how emotional you will get about any situation they will decide without asking your opinion. first, because they know better what really is going on. secondly, they have their own intentions and goals for their own countries. and when they decide they will let you know and they might put it in a proper way knowing their people's mentality, playing on feelings as well.
and as soon they tell you there will be more topics to discuss, more articles to read and more comments to write for us but that wont help.

[Big cowboy boots]

Posted by: Ian Watson | 14 Aug 2008 15:45:45

I'd expect no less from a typical European sniveling coward.

If it makes you feel better you may continue to point out your deranged fantasy scenario to your little yellow hearts content but frankly whatever happens you Euros will always be victims because you are weak, effete, and decadent.

[Mary]

There are many elements at work here. All of this happening so close to a US election--remember Nixon won in 68 after Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia. If McCain is elected it helps Russia's hardliners including Putin as they will be able to point to US bully tactics. Republicans win White House. Both sides get what they want, but it will be average Americans and Russians and Georgians who will suffer most.

Georgia is Bush's deal, not McCain's. In truth, McCain could probably care less about Georgia.

But the question is what is McCain's true stance?
Rick Davis, who is very close to McCain, has worked for Russia's richest man, Oleg Deripaska for years. Deripaska and McCain have even met on several occasions. Rick Davis also worked for the 2004 pro-Kermlin candidate Viktor Yanukovych in Ukraine.

Isn't Deripaska close to Putin and pro-Kremlin? I am just saying that this is an odd coincidence.

Look it up in a search Rick Davis Oleg Deripaska John McCain.

[Gareth]

A lot of people here are conveniently forgetting the facts of it

Georgia invaded in the middle of the night a breakaway region of its country, it used multiple launch rocket systems, heavy artillery and tanks in a brutal manner.

How many people were killed is in dispute, 1600? All we know is it was in the hundreds at least, we also know that they attacked civilian buildings deliberately.

So, the question is - why the hell would anyone want Georgia to have any say of this country? I hear lots of Fox news believing Americans and Europeans that cant tell the difference between Stalin regime and a mildly nationalistic Russia supporting that mass murder Saakashvili who aught to be strung up by his own side for the number of Georgians killed by his reckless actions, let along Ossetians.

Personally as a UK citizen I'd prefer if we could stop befriending scum bag countries and maybe one day go to a foreign policy that has some sort of principles to it, unfortunately we still seem to be supporting blood thirsty maniacs whenever they do something the politicians like for our short term gain and for someone else's long term pain.

[Kristofer N.K]

The Wrld must be crazy. When Dr. Rice talks, you'd think she is a classteacher where medvedev is a pupil, or a mum chastising her Russian kids.
Accusing Russia of Cold War tendencies is to forget that Rice and other neo-cons with strings to the mlitar-industrial complex never wanted the cold war t end without US marines patroling Moscow, Yekaterinburg, Omsk, etc. Rice and Co. are 'babies if cold-war Russophobia' and are still trapped there. IT IS NOW CLEAR their ANTICOMMUNISM ACTIVITIES WERE TRULLY A CLOACK FOR centuries old RUSSOPHOBIA.If georgia is yugoslavia/Iraq, then S.Ossetia is kosovo. What is the deal madam 'teacher'?

[Arkady]

to JUDY,

"Osetia is old Georgian territory and Georgians have nothing against Osetinas" LOL

Stop twisting facts. All the history of the relations between Osetians and Georgians was the permanent wish of Georgian feodals to have Osetian peasants (with the capital panishment for all those who would not like to be in such "sweet relations" with Georgians).

Now about the Russia inspirations. If not mistaken, I understand that your point is that Russia inspired Saakashvili to start shelling hospitals, schools, kindergardens and civil houses in Tshinval on August 8? Poor Saakashvili...

[Pavel]

Hi
Im Russian and I think that your views are rather well balanced for a Western journalist. I wish more people were as level-headed as you.
For the starters: good choise of a picture to go with the comment!
A rather scary Russian paratrooper in front. :)
Charles, you dont have to wonder you hear the old-time slogans on TV and radio in times like these. I think we got very close to the brink again. I mean the US and Russia. Whats following I wonder? Economical sanctions? Expelling from the G8?
Id be happy - these are only political gestures. And I feel the world gets extremely unsafe lately. I understand that this is inevitable: natural resources're getting thin and no one is thinking about changing consumerism into something more reasonable.

I agree to the comment on Western propaganda. Im used to our own awkward one, but Western media, espesially in the US, just went over themselves recently! Ive read headlines just after our troops were inserted into S. Ossetia. It was all like: 'Russia invaded Georgia', 'Russian aggression', Saackashvili's muck all over the Internet, etc.

'Why doesnt anybody mention artillery barrage of Tschinvaly and storming of the town by the Georgians?', - I wondered, - 'Ah, thats the freedome of speach for ya'.
Of course later on there came up some more ballanced articles, but the first impression didnt wear off.

I guess, the West whants us to be ruthless barbarians. Wonder if they are happy now in the USA? I think yes, especially in Halliburton, Lockheed and the like. More orders for them, less money for developing new sources of energy, space research, fighting famine and deseases.

We just began to recover from the last cold war and here we go again! Round 2. Just great.

[Rick]

There's somebody masquerading as me on this blog and (s)he/it doesn't punctuate... Don't settle for cheap imitations.

[Pam]

It's really weird how intense local conflict is seen through the prism of big powers struggling for control, influence, oil. The nutshell of this war is obviously too simple to fathom for majority of commentators - two ( or better three) small nations have always been at each others' throats for hundreds of years. They are hard-wired to "loath thy neighbour". One neighbour (the Georgians) decide to be the new kid on the block & grab the power. Mind you both "breakaway" provinces have wanted to be independent for 16! years. That's a long time right? The only problem here is that Ossetins thought it's better to turn to Russia for protection than to the USA. It makes a perfect sense since Russia is close at hand & for hundred years has been somehow present on scene. I am absolutely sure were the Ossetins the "close ally" of the USA, the Georgia would become a scapegoat. If all countries would treat the current conflict as highly local & old one, everybody would have benefited.

[Jarvis]

I believe both Georgians and Russians committed atrocities in this conflict. Both the Georgian offensive and the Russian counter-offensive resulted in many violations of humans rights. One cannot just paint the picture in black and white.

As for the United States, they are just looking after their interest which is the strategic pipeline and their influence in the region through Georgia. Stability in that region is beneficial for the US and the west in general (and the rest of the world for that matter). I don't think there's anything wrong with looking after one's own interest especially if it meant ending violence - even if it is only incident to the objective.

[Igor]

People, it's funny to hear all over again of Russia's intent to take over all pipelines of gas/oil and use it as "energy weapon". My naive friends... the simple fact is that oil and gas will be the VITAL for emerging market economies like China/Korea/Thailand/Indonesia and India, which will be prepared to pay and be much more competetive to our Western counterparts. That is why, Russia builds a pipeline by itself to route its Eastern Siberia oil to China and Japan. Give it another 2 years and it will be fully functional and then let Capitalism and Free market economy to RULE. The point is that Oil and Gas are rare assets.. not pipelines. I support democracy, but i do not support hypocracy. Let's be honest to ourselves, in the real world it's all about the money... and superpowers will rule in the near future. I will put 3 simple examples
1 )the US military/diplomatic policy failed (Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan/Sudan/Somali/Iran etc.etc.etc. and most probably because of fading economic power.
2) A lot of noise this year about China/Tibet clash. Where are the western leaders now? Watching Olympics in Bejing. Why? Propably, because China is the second largest economy in the world and the biggest holder of US national debt.
3) EU is devided by a simple fact that Old Europe is paying HUGE EUROS (40-50% income tax)to integrate US-backed Eastern Europeans.

The truth is that the world is not a perfect place to live... forget cliches and stay clear of brain-washing... sometimes it helps

[Mary]

I know this is overly optimistic, but one can hope Condi is going to Georgia to tell their President to shut his mouth and then slap him for bombing SO without first consulting NATO and the US.

I really don't believe Bush knew about this and the Georgian President started this because he knows come January he will lose his support in the White House. Also, he lived in the US and understands how Americans work--if he can get us angry and upset enough with Russia a new cold war will begin. Well to be honest, that will serve no one, not Russia or the US.

Whoever from Russia who said defense contractors will be getting richer--you are right about that. Boeing and Lockheed are probably doing backflips and toasting champagne right now.

I pray that both sides, Americans and Russians, can calm down and let reason and some sanity prevail. Who wants another cold war? Or worse WWIII? Can you say nuclear holocaust--it would be a disaster. Checkmate, world destruction.

Come January I hope a new US Administration, Obama, will help bring about some much needed peace in the world by taking the US out of the business of meddling in everyones business.

I confess, this altercation with Georgia may have tipped the scale in McCain's favor....Please don't do that to the world Russia!! This will upset France and Germany far more than any war with Georgia ever could.

[Mora]

A little-reported fact shows Russia's capability

Steve Levine writes about one little-reported fact of the Russia-Georgia war. This event shows that Russia can and might dismantle the West's biggest post-Cold War project:http://oilandglory.com/2008/08/targeting-pipeline.html

[Rib]

I can't believe the pass many of you Western Europeans give Russia. I understand the sentiment against Iraq war but you guys will take whatever side is anti-US. You lefty wing-nuts are going to sleep walk into some deep crap.

[pato]

Maybe its time the Russians encouraged TEXAS and CALIFONIA to cede back to mexico....and also demand back ALASKA...then we can see who the big boys are ...

[Mary Fernandez]

"old" superpower? I think "former" superpower is more accurate.

Russia as a country is dying from low birth and high abortion rates, and it's absolutely soaked in alcoholism.

They may be flush with oil money right now, but the rusting Soviet fleet and an aging airforce does not a superpower make.

Can we also dispense with the '2,000 Russian citizens' B.S.? Those were Ossetians that were mass mailed Russian passports. Ossetian rebels, with military support from Russia, were attacking Georgia daily. Georgia responded. Russia used this as a pretense to annex its neighbor.

Why didn't Russia go to the U.N., that fount of all things sacred and legitimate, if it had a grievance? I seem to remember some holier than thou 'nyets' a few years back...

Russia should be kicked out of G8 & its partnership with Nato ended. Kiss goodbye any membership in the WTO.

[rocket]

Paul 2

"I would be very nervous if I was in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, or Ukraine."

Maybe a little less nervous tonight.

http://tinyurl.com/6rajvp

[Serge]

US military ops after WW2 in succession, large and small:Yugoslavia,Uruguay ,Greece ,Puerto Rico ,Korea ,
Guatemala ,Lebanon ,Panama ,Vietnam,Cuba ,Laos,
Panama,Indonesia,Dominican Rep,Guatemala,Cambodia,
OmanLaos,Cambodia,Angola,Libya,El Salvador ,Nicaragua
Lebanon,Honduras,Grenada,Iran,Libya,Bolivia, Iran,Libya ,Virgin Islands ,Philippines.Panama,Saudi Arabia,Kuwait,Somalia,
Bosnia,Haiti,Zaire,Sudan,Afghanistan,Yugoslavia,Iraq

[Two pennies worth]

The method Russia seems to be using in gaining its objective of restoring the Soviet Union is to separate a piece from another country and then move in its „piecekeepers“ to keep that piece for itself.
In conclusion, the international community should make plans for reacting to the next Russian attack on its neighbour. The present reaction is inadequate since Russian forces are still moving deeper into Georgia. The next attack will come since the invasion of Georgia is premeditated and part of a bigger plan (Robert Kagan’s Aug. 11 article in The Washington Post). There are also plenty of „frozen conflict“ opportunities that Russia can warm up – Nagorno-Karabakh in Azerbaijan, Eastern Ukraine that is mainly Russian-speaking, Transdniestria in Moldova, the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad between Poland and Lithuania (access rights for example), the mainly Russian-speaking Ida-Virumaa region of Estonia.

[Two pennies worth]

Russia has agreed to both sides withdrawing their armies only because it has no intention of pulling its forces out. It sees an opportunity to make Georgia disarm unilaterally. Russia will claim that its army in Georgia is peacekeepers, policemen or voluntary militia of the South Ossetians and keep it in. The only way to ensure that both sides withdraw their armies is to send in an international peacekeeping force, no member of which is from Russia, Georgia or any group in Caucasus. That force should have the arms and authority to enforce withdrawal of armies.
Georgia was the lightning rod for Eastern Europe. Russia focused its economic, propagandistic and military bullying on Georgia, lightening the pressure on countries of Eastern Europe. In the 1990s Russian military planes were flying over the Baltic states and Russia was imposing trade sanctions on them. After the Rose Revolution in Georgia this activity shifted there. Now that the lightning rod is broken Eastern European countries should expect a lot more economic and military trouble from Russia.
An old anecdote from the post-communist countries: An American, a German and a Russian are boasting in a bar. The American says: „On my farm I drive a Ford, when I go to work I drive a Lincoln and when I go abroad I drive a Cadillac.“ The German answers: „When I am at home, I drive a Volkswagen, at work I drive a Mercedes and in other countries I drive a BMW.“ The Russian says: „I drive a Zhaporozhets at home and a tractor at work.“ „And when you go to another country?“ the others ask. „When I go to another country I drive a tank,“ the Russian answers.

[Two pennies worth]

A couple of points:
1 In the international media the background to the Russian-Georgian war is given starting from last week and the bombing of Tshinvali. The military conflict has actually been going on for some years with Russian military planes flying over Georgia and „unidentified“ bombs and rockets falling into Georgia.
2 The cyberattacks on Georgia started a day before the bombing of Tshinvali.
3 The Russian citizens in South Ossetia to whose aid Russia purportedly rushed were manufactured by Russia in the last few years. Russia simply handed out its passports to anyone who wanted them in South Ossetia.
4 The Russian claim that a war is to defend civilians is ridiculous from a logical standpoint alone. Any peace is better than war for civilians. A country whose primary goal was to protect civilians would not go to war or if it was already in one would withdraw as quickly as possible. That applies to all wars, not just the present one in Georgia.
5 Russia claims that the South Ossetians chose independence from Georgia in a referendum in 2004. A fair referendum in Russian-controlled territory is a contradiction in terms but perhaps South Ossetians really prefer to secede. If Russia wants Ossetians to be independent, it should first grant independence to North Ossetia that is currently part of Russia. That would be a very powerful argument in favour of South Ossetian independence. Russia of course just wants to expand its territory and will incorporate South Ossetia into itself, not give it independence.
6 Russia claims Georgia has perpetrated genocide in South Ossetia. Considering the number of international advisers, consultants, monitors and no doubt spies in Georgia now a genocide would have been noticed very quickly. No other sources besides Russian ones have confirmed the genocide allegations however. A genocide can be carried out relatively unnoticed only in remote and isolated territories where a great power is denying access to the international community. That happened for example in Chechenya where Russia strongly discouraged international observation.
7 There are many similarities between the rhetoric and behaviour of Germany in 1938 and Russia in 2008, for example the defending of one’s citizens abroad argument, accusing a smaller country of attacking a larger one, claiming that the world is biased against them, fostering separatism and ethnic conflict in its neighbours’ territories. Carl Bildt drew some good parallels between Russia and Hitler’s Germany in a recent article.
8 On the internet the Russian viewpoint is more widely represented than the Georgian simply because the number of potential commenters and bloggers in Russia is much larger than in Georgia.

[Rick]

PAVEL, bless you for your gentle message. Elsewhere, here, a great deal of heat is being generated but very little light. BIG COWBOY BOOTS, Americans are often their own worst ambassadors, aren’t you? BTW, the Russians and America saved Europe from the Nazis… in that order. EVERYONE, if you look up the TLS section on the ‘Times’ website, you’ll find a review of a history of the Caucasus; this highlighting the complexity of the region. Knowledge is a wonderful antidote to noise.

[Jill]

Georgia's breakaway sections of South Ossetia and Abkhazia cannot be compared with Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The US has a long term lease on Guantanamo Bay. The Cubans may not like that, but there is an agreement in place. Plus the US soldiers at Guantanamo Bay do not shell the Cuban people over the walls.

Putin encouraged these separatist regions and must have planned the attacks on Georgians from the South Ossetian separatists. Georgia got tired of that and decided to retake active control of S. Ossetia. Russia's counterattack and invasion was too big and too comprehensive to have been a simple reaction. This was a setup that the Georgians walked into. Putin obviously had big plans to crush Georgia and replace its elected leaders with puppets.

If the vast majority of legitimate citizens of South Ossetia and Abkhazia want to become part of Russia - hold a real vote. I personally suspect that Russia cares very little about the people in these regions. It cares about getting the coastline of Abkhazia and being able to control the oil pipeline running through Georgia. It's the only way for Central Asia to export its oil without going through lines controlled by Russia. Putin wants a complete monopoly.

[Jesse]

I'm no fan of US foreign policy over the past seven years and George Bush has been a major embarrassment for the United States but this global anti-USA posture is insane. Every issue or problem that has any global significance is blamed on the USA. The USA is given too much credit and too much blame for geo-political events. To paint the USA as an evil tyrant is silly. The USA has a clumsy leader and that leader has made the USA susceptible to criticism, especially with what has happened in Iraq. But the "cold war" was real and the stakes were meaningful. It was an ideological battle that split the world into two groups. I imagine that the increasing global dependence on fossil fuels will tend to increase conflicts between nations over the next twenty years and this might drive a global wedge similar to the cold war. I understand the joy that many of you have with seeing the USA struggle but it really does not serve a purpose. Georgia was moronic for instigating conflict. At the same time Russia has lost credibility for taking a heavy handed approach to the situation.
To Ian Watson above; your distaste for the USA is undeniable but your argument is weak. Europe would suffer a great deal more than the USA in your scenario. The USA derives 1.4% of their oil and gas imports from Russia, which is insignificant. Russia, as described in today’s NYTimes, has some clear issues with its military –under-investment and lack of training. The Russian military is still supremely capable but to paint either military – USA or Russia – as anything other than capable is silly. Also, the difficulties that the USA are experiencing in Afghanistan and Iraq are to be expected. The British and the Soviets seemed to have difficulty in that part of the world as well. The USA has more debt than is advisable but not out of line as a percentage of the US GDP. The Chinese economy is driven by exports to Europe and North America. To assume that China would align themselves with Russia at the expense of their two largest global trading partners is silly. China is a major global power and they understand the importance of the global economy. Also, I did not really follow your WWII logic. The USA seemed to be supporting the British with supplies back in 1939 and their entry into the war was a result of being attacked. There was a meaningful German population in the USA in 1939, which slowed FDR’s public alignment with the allied forces, but all lend-lease actions indicated strong support for the allied effort. Also, at that time America was an isolationist country and was attempting to avoid war, which I’m sure you would applaud today. Ian, I’m sure you’re a wonderful lad but your case is weak.

[Mila]

Hi everyone! It`s not a chain letter, so please read)))
All the crimes in the world are commited with our silent agreement. May be it`s time to say our word unless it`s too late. Instead of arguing who is right or wrong, instead of trying to fight each other with all the possible weapon, stay on the true side , on the side of people who died, were wounded and suffered, both Georgian and Ossetian . People don`t need weapons, politicians do. People who want peace are not crazy or loonies. These are those who want war.
What a bizarre world we live in: those who have more weapons, can presumably sleep in a more peaceful piece of the world, that`s nonsense
Sounds like it was said millions of times, but it`s truth. Truth which is hardly visible, due to all the lies of the so-called governors trying to prove who is right.
Sounds like propaganda? Yes, it`s propaganda of peace. The only propaganda that has the right to exist.
I spoke from my heart, wish you the same))))

[azloon]

[Once again, the Europeans....have demonstrated that, when it come to those postmodern Olympian sports of synchronized self-loathing, team hand-wringing and lightweight posturing, they know how to sweep gold, silver and bronze.] Gerald Baker, timesonline

read on:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/gerard_baker/article4534358.ece

[Artem]

Dear all abroad - this is ridiculous how scared you are of any military action of Russia. Especially, when it is down to self protection of _own_ peacekeepers and _own_ people (just 70 000 – little ethic group) in a little city smashed by “cover – the- territory ” artillery fire. What’s wrong with you people? What would you have done? Why do you still think that Russians are going for a war???

We have less desire to fight than anyone else. As for me I am deadly tired of all this media talks “KGB back in power”, “Superpower is back”… IT ALL stopped 17 years ago. FOREVER. But we always decisive to protect ourselves, as any other free nation.

But the truth is you and ex-Soviet republics just need someone to fight. For US – #1 “death seller” to export the weapons (check the UN 2007 report on who sold the weapons to Georgia to _start_ the military action). For ex-Soviet republics – to hide internal problems. I wonder if there is no Russia – who should it be???
When I came for my second MSc degree to UK I was amazed by the level of biasness of the media. Good thing it starts to become objective little by little. By the time I am 90 it will be close to half truth…
Make peace, no war.

[Jim J]

I am amazed that the same people who convinced themselves that they could satisfy Hitler in 1938 by giving him the little country of Czechoslovakia think that they that they can appease Putin in 2008 with Georgia. In 70 years they haven't learned a thing. Appeasement didn't work with Hitler; it won't work with Putin. Only this time, we won't be in any position to expel the occupiers. I hope they enjoy their future and find the Russian boot a little easier to bear than was the German Nazi heel.

[razatork]

wow, 200 comments in just a few hours you are becoming very popular with our russian friends Charles.

Yeah so the russian establishment is turning the clock back, alright, i would score georgia -10 and russia -100.

The georgians may have temporarily (or not) lost two breakaway regions but russia lost far more than that.

The EU is built on consensus, until now the europeans were divided over russia and the eastern europeans had a hard time getting heard about their concerns over russia's old ways reappearing. Now it is germany (russia's best friend in europe) that's gonna have a hard time getting heard. Indeed Poland just signed that balistic missile treaty in response and no one in europe is gonna dare tell them not to.
And the rest of the world has been watching too, but i really don't think russia will get the response the were working for.

Russia seems not to realise that there's only two superpowers, USA and China, and the more trouble they will create to their neighbours, the more said neighbours will look for protections by the big two.

As for the propaganda machine, please charles, don't compare the sometimes deluded reporting of the west, yet always rebalancing with the bad faith propaganda of russia. At least we have access to a diversity of opinions, including that of our dear russian tovariches.

BTW the french-centric narrative of the french media is appalling, it's so bad it could be Groland news.

[razatork]

Just one last thing, Dr Rice and others were right to make the comparison with Czechoslovakia, we live in a globalised world, the most important thing you can have and lose, is trust. Who wants to trust the russians now ??

[Sergey]

Does anyone take into an account that people of South Ossetia voted twice to be independent of Georgia. They don't want to live with the georgians. And Saakhashvilli proved that they were absolutely right when on August 7th he had given an order to bomb the city Tskhinvali (the capital of South Ossetia) under the cover of night. About two thousand innocent ossetians were killed by him. Why do "free" american press and CNN not tell us about this Saakhashvilli's crime? Why do they not show that about thirty thousand south-ossetians escaped to North Ossetia (the region of Russia) from georgians last five days?

[Walter]

Saakashvili killed 1600 people in South Osetia(72.000 people live in SO)
2.2% from all population.
what will you say if someone kill 2.2%
of your country?

For example
UK 60.587.300 people (wiki)
1.320.000 people will be died
for 5 days
USA 304.866.000 people (wiki)
6.707.052 people will be died
for 5 days.

[Blendi Progri]

As he left Beijing behind him, Putin was possibly drawing up a shopping list that looked something like this.

Pipeline (nyet). Missile shields (nyet). NATO (nyet). Bolster my strong-man image (da). Heighten patriotism (da). Needle Ukraine (da). NB- Telephone Medvedev sometime soon.

Posted by: christopher muir

Lol, Chris, there's no better image of Putin doing some needle sharpening late at night, muttering to himself and looking at the list.

The KGB virus stays with one for life.
--------------
Also I found Ian Watson post with a very interesting angle ( considering debt) as conflicts always have a cost and often start for a resource or another, despite the guisse the parties try to give later on.

Few days ago, I saw Georgia's president addressing his nation.

When he said that he had instructed His Armed Forces to restore constitutional order...I just thought it must be a Spoof. This can’t be happening.

Why the hell this guy think he is?! Trying to be Roosevelt? It was beyond comical.

Couldn't belive it.
Checked other news stations and then...got it...it was True.

On the Rrussian side - without judging anything here- if Georgia wasn't challenged, I have a feeling that when the view of many civilians killed by them (Georgian army) would have become known around the world, many of the folks ( media) that condemn Russia today, would have said..why didn;t Russia do anything to protect its citizens? At the very least Russia would have been taunted forever.

So Russia had no choice left. Georgia took that choice away. If Russia stayed still, it would have lost all the prestige it has.

One can't jump on a lion, pull his mane, punch him in the groin then poke him in the eye, ...and run away surprised that the lion is chasing him.

He attacks, then appears triumphant, then says democray is at stake here, then proposes unilateral cease-fires...then this and then that...
Is this So called President...playing Monopoly? Even this is a bad comparison, as I seen kids thinking harder when buying a get out of jail card, than this person who started a global crisis.

I still can't figure out if the guy is a Charming Lunatic, or simply a megalomaniac that lives in a world of make-believe. Both are bad. People died. Lives destroyed, a way of life that will take more than a generation to recover.

Well…what did the Georgian president expect?
He, more than most people must have known what was coming.
------.

Yesterday, BBC ITV etc didn’t mention Sarko at all (and his Master-plan) on their 22.00 edition, though after 00.00 he was mentioned a little.

I feel a general sense of weariness towards Sarko and not just in France. However he must be due some credit, as Russia needs and wants some recognition and in a way he provided a kind of way out by his presence, superficial that may be. But that's diplomacy at work.

I think the main reason Georgia attacked is too complex to be analysed in one post, but USA is getting to close to Russia's borders and understandably, Russia feels suffocated in a way.

America can maintain good relations without getting heavily involved in a part of the world where even the main participants don't remember really where the conflict started and where wars, provocations, incursions etc are easy to come by.

The best ‘analysis’ I heard on this coverage, was when on the first day- the BBC was saying how:
Georgia has the best trained troops on that region (as opposed to whom?) trained by American instructors...it was too much---I had to laugh. The Georgian army (that’s what they call it) has 18.000 soldiers.

Lol, that must be 1/2 of a Russian division. So there we are, an immature person is elected president...then he starts a war...and 100 wise guys are in a great dilemma and don’t know what to call it. Seriously I am thinking that a president must be over 50, anywhere in the world, lol, just to make sure that most of adolescent hormones have dissolved a little. But there no guarantee to keep out psychologically imbalanced folks, from getting into high office.
---------

It was a Fool's War.

Thank god cooler heads prevailed and didnt act foolishly as many a war has started this way.

Whatever it is, Russia deserves a recognition for acting responsively, being the mature party in a silly conflict and carrying out actions very proportionately.
Whatever one thinks or Russia, past or present, we can't deny them that.

There's no need to berate them or push Russia away, instead of lecturing them on what to do, what standards to follow or how to behave on the world stage- let them find their own way, we simply can make Russia a partner, stop provoking her on the doorstep (What NATO supposes to win by inviting every one in its garden- it escapes me) and consulting Russia as a full partner. In the world we live in and how its being shaped, we are better off with Russia as an ally, than antagonising her.

Despite being committed Europeans and having given so much to Europe, many Russians feel (at least the Russian friends and those I meet through them) that despite what they do, The West always views them with suspicion and pushes them away.

Some are confused why this happens, the explanations vary, but most feel that this is unfair.

I can only say that in the world stage Russia is a Factor, Georgia is simply an actor.

The tragedy was/is that Georgia's president tried to confuse these roles...

Let this be e lesson- if nothing else- that how easy it is to jump from patriotic rhetoric-to-military-actions and how hard it is to reverse this process.
Once again, well done Russia for showing the world that you aren’t the monster we often hear that you are.

For all the gas, energy and politics, the handling of this affair was done in a very proper way by Russia and that’s something widely (if not grudgingly) accepted by most of the world.

[John]

Is it true that South Ossetia and Abkhazia were made part of Georgia in the past by Stalin???

[Paul, half Russian]

I just wanted to say that if Russia wanted to invade Georgia, they could have done it in less than 24 hours. I don't believe in the Media anymore, it's all political BS, people die for nothing.

[Pauline]

I think most of you are right.There are some russians here /language and excessive expressions/.Genocide must be proved and may be also manipulated.Have you heard that russinas are always great,all other nations are second hand.You ask eastern europeans about the slaughters of women and children in the WWII-Poland for example.Monstrous slaughters just like that.And of course big quantity does not make quality.

[keta]

In 1937 there were only aroung 12 Osetian families, the rest where all Georgians in that territory. So when someone talks of genocidis that is what Osetians did with Georgians in 90s, killed them and kicked out. Russia was giving out russian passports to osetian separatists only to bring trouble to Georgia. I guess many people do not know the history and truth behind the conflict.

[Andrey]

Hey, US, just tell me. You consider your mission is to spread “democracy” all over the world. You say you want Russia to be strong democratic country too, so you could trust us. Ok, imagine, if Russia had REAL democracy and wise government, if we hadn’t so much corruption and oligarchs who stolen many billions of dollars. Then Russia, the richest with resources country, would have been the most powerful and strongest country in the world. You say we are aggressive and unpredictable? Ok, imagine we have president just like your Bush.
And now just tell me honestly, do you want Russia to be strong democratic country?

To John: “Is it true that South Ossetia and Abkhazia were made part of Georgia in the past by Stalin???” Yes, it’s true. And Stalin was Georgian by the way.

[paul descartes]

There are some pretty hilarious comments in this thread. NATO doesn't pose a threat to Russia. Looks like Putin is till butt-hurt over losing the last 'Cold War'. Moreover, this looks like a play by the Russians to control and/or antagonize Georgian leadership because Georgia has a competing oil/gas infrastructure; and they want help support from NATO, not Russia. Deal with it Russia. Oh, and Putin, please lower your journalist snuffing quotient. It makes you look like a thug...oh wait!

[keta]

some say that Osetians voted to be independent but that vote can not be considered legal because georgian people who lived there for centuries and who were kicked out by force in 90s and who are refugees had to also participate in this vote. that it would be legal, and then u will see the results would be different.

[Steven]

Whoa, thought it was a nightmare,
Lo, it's all so true,
They told me, "Don't go walking slow
'Cause Devil's on the loose."

Better run through the jungle,
Better run through the jungle,
Better run through the jungle,
Woa, Don't look back to see.

Thought I heard a rumbling
Calling to my name,
Two hundred million guns are loaded
Satan cries, "Take aim!"

Better run through the jungle,
Better run through the jungle,
Better run through the jungle,
Woa, Don't look back to see.

Over on the mountain
Thunder magic spoke,
"Let the people know my wisdom,
Fill the land with smoke."

Better run through the jungle,
Better run through the jungle,
Better run through the jungle,
Woa, Don't look back to see

[Maria]

What is George doing in Poland? What is Rise doing in Georgia? I don't understand! is it a birthday of neofascism? or communism? or any new ideology?! world please, don't sleep ! Tomorrow it may be your disaster! I afraid! Please remember the starting of second world's war! when fascists started their pitiless action against jewish! than Europe slept too! Russia is not same USSR!

[keta]

Andrey, Stalin did not bring Abkhazia and Osethia to Georgia. It always been georgian land and its crime to try to change history, you can check documents. and Stalin was georgian-born but he was hero and leader of Russians not georgians.

[Nutsa]

Dear all,
very easy to judge fro outside.. i know, but it have been disastrous days for Georgians and even osetians...
We asked for help to Turks, We asked Russians many years before and both of them destoyed our soveregnity , both destroyed our independance and freedom.. this principles are key to Georgia as we are a very small nation... We know what it is to "under" russia and we're not haapy with it. So if you think we assume US will be helping and supporting us without asking anything in return u are deeply misled.. We are more then happy to give something in return if our needs are met... by needs i mean Democracy! I mean freedom of speach (not the imaginary - just like in Russai), freedom to do business and freedom to chose whatever we want..
not only my parents generation but also my - we are quite well informed about what is happening in Russia... let them do whatever they want if they are haapy with it, [appoint the president, take shares in all businesses, kill those who oppose, destoy all possible free press and much more] but leave us alone!! let us chose what we desire!

[Maria]

I want to say only one question: a lot of American people don't like George Bush and Co, and don't like their politic games! but they have their in government! What's happen is it democracy? all people in the world see it! But nobody do nothing! Europeans close their eyes! Who help us if not you? do you want to get a new fascism and imposed settlement?

[Val]

To say the truth it is always useful to read from different sources, and to be there...
Georgia started this war without declaration and killed 1600 people in a few hours of bombardment... make your decisions
US tries to influence all the world by placing military bases everywhere, by occupying Iraq, Afghanistan, bombing Yugoslavia, separating Kosovo, also Vietnam.

[Alex]

Poor British brainwashed people

[Robert Marchenoir]

All there is to say really is in the September 16, 1924 edition of The Times, which its online editors very thoughtfully pointed to:

http://archive.timesonline.co.uk/tol/viewArticle.arc?articleId=ARCHIVE-The_Times-1924-09-16-10-003&pageId=ARCHIVE-The_Times-1924-09-16-10&manualTopicId=false

Putin is just re-enacting the communist scenario of 1924.

[mocx]

There will never be peace in the world!! so we might as well start the war today, if we wait, it will not be just america and russia that will bring the world to its knees, we will have muslims and the chinise!! And while you guys are bombing each other stay the hell away from Africa!

[mocx]

Keep fighting for power!! The sad thing about this world is that ordinary people want to get along and co-exist. Unfortunately there is idiots out there that think we still stuck in those old days were we had to fight to prove something to the world. The world needs to tackle other unknow problems now, Americans and Russians need to go to Mars and fight there!! And i repeat while you are bombing each other please stay away from Africa...we have nothing to do with your greed!!

[Dodo]

Nutsa | 15 Aug 2008 08:16:51

If you want: Sovereignty, independence, freedom and democracy: Russia is a bad choice, I agree, but USA is worst.

Do you think they care of you? Come on. Open your eyes. Or you follow them blindly or they bash you. They call it “If you are not with us or you are against”.
In France we also love Sovereignty, independence, freedom and democracy.
The result, the US answer was ‘Freedom fries and Surrender monkey’.
Open your eyes. We are from Europe. We need to be strong together, it is our country. We don’t want to be US slaves nor Russian slaves. Of course if your choice is to be US dependent Mac Do and Coca Cola will be cheaper, and if if your choice is to be independent of them they will insult you, but who care?
The american insulted my country, they insulted me, my family, my parents, my kids for several years, BUT I AM FREE !

[Chris]

I despair at some of the comments & opinions from both media & individuals. This is not a clear cut case of Russia expanding it's borders.
I see this as Northern/Southern Ireland type issue of old where the UK troops are the peacekeepers. There is/was no clear cut solution to the problem & there were plenty of flashpoints where things could & did turn nasty.
I really don't see this as an East v West problem.
So, if the Russians are now there in a peacekeeping capacity then the only useful act of the West is to reinforce Russia's role ideally with an international (neutral) peacekeeping force. This promotes peace (or at least some stability) in the region & keeps Russia onside & should avert suspicions from onlookers.
Whatever, it should be seen that war never solved anything in Northern/Southern Ireland.

[SWAT]

Obversely what we seen in Georgia is well done brand new TV show for world peasants.
Done to replace the old play with old actors as Ben laden and fayed Saddam Husein. So Russian and Georgian, seems no more then just actors and employee for the latest episode in the show.

Question is how is the Director.

As we have seen on TV, the Russian tanks were dried and polished well, all troopers with new uniform and equipments. That is way different to typical Russian mentality and really need time for brushing and polishing latest Kalashnikov's. So more likely the Director give to them clear infractions with the time, place, basic action guide and new stylist for refreshing makeup on the show.

Seems now they are going to play Old -New enemy of the global world. Real or not is not important, any way with popcorn and Coca the TV show will looks grate.

Yep, now we going to see more episodes with American Batmen hue are saving the world 5 times per day 24/7...

[Léopold Schonbach]

To Big Cowboy Boots

"frankly whatever happens you Euros will always be victims because you are weak, effete, and decadent"

Hey BCB, what's wrong with you? Are you turning politically correct? You forgot some epithets: "fags, cheese eating monkeys, poop, nazis, dykes,..."

You are seriously weakening your case with this mild and statesmanlike language.

[Terry]

“This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia, where Russia can threaten its neighbours, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it. Things have changed.” Just like the old days, the tough stance in Washington is making the Europeans nervous."

Yes, the tough talk makes Europeans nervous. Not the Russian invasion of a democracy. Unfortunately, it seems just like ole times with Europe. I am surprised more Europeans arent out in the streets protesting the US for causing this crisis. For Europeans, history starts everyday at 8:00 a.m..

When CB asked for some suggestions for his Sarko foreign policy debate last year, you may recall that one of my questions was about the fear that Putin may start to reassert Russian power in Eastern Europe. If Sarko's humiliating retreat with the Dali Lama of all things is any indication, Georgia will become 1938's Czechoslovakia.

BTW: To be fair, I the US response has been rather weak.