Sarkozy takes over Europe

They are lighting the Eiffel Tower in blue and gold tonight to mark the opening of Nicolas Sarkozy's presidency of the European Union. Strictly speaking, it's just the French turn in the rotating chairmanship of the EU council, but Sarko has made it personal. 

The illumination in the colours of the Union kicks off 180 million euros worth of festivities over the next six months. These were supposed to celebrate the spirit of Europe and a French renaissance in the EU. Such state-organised joy is always questionable and its is ringing hollow now that the Union is back in a mess. 

Sarkozy began preparing for France's turn in the EU presidency as soon as he reached the Elysée Palace in June last year. France would show that it's back in the driving seat after the dreary reign of Jacques Chirac and French rejection of the new EU constitution in 2005.  The Sarko show got off to a good start when he helped broker a simplified treaty to replace the constitution. He then announced a bold French-led scheme to unite the Mediterranean nations.

Lately things have fallen apart and Sarkozy is inheriting a bedraggled union. The Irish voted down "his" Lisbon treaty a couple of weeks ago, throwing the EU back into institutional crisis. At the same time the global economic crunch has hammered morale and the Union has assumed its usual role of scapegoat.

Sarkozy, a man who sees only opportunities, now aims to be the saviour of Europe.

 

As well as fixing the Irish problem, he wants to push through his planned new initiatives on immigration, energy costs and so on, to rekindle trust in the Union. The headline in yesterday's Aujourd'hui en France asked: "Will Sarkozy save Europe?"

The question is silly. It raises unrealistic expectations and ignores a simple fact. France is not taking over the controls of Europe. The presidency amounts to temporary chairmanship of a diffuse cooperative of 27 nations. The presiding country chairs the council, the inter-government body that sets policy, not the Commission and Parliament, which also hold power. The better EU presidencies tend to be run by the smaller states, which have little ambition to put their stamp on the union but devote big resources to making the machinery work.

Until lately, you got the impression that Sarkozy thought he could treat Europe in the same Bonapartist way that he runs France. Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany was said to have warned him about his excessive ambition after she chaired the Union a year ago, telling him: "In Paris, Nicolas, you are the Sun King. But Europe is like Germany, a coalition of diverging interests. You need a lot of patience and skill".

Patience is not a quality for which our Sarko is known. He has great skill but consensus-building is not one of them. His management style, according to those who work with him, is to decide before hearing the arguments from around the table. 

But Sarkozy has a pragmatic side and can be persuaded to compromise. He has done this with his grand scheme for a Mediterranean Union, bowing to German demands that it be incorporated into an existing Brussels-run initiative.  That has effectively neutered it and Sarko's big launching summit, to be attended by 45 leaders on July 13, will no longer be the dazzling event that he had hoped for.

Sarkozy and his administration say that they have got the message about the danger of arrogance.  Bernard Kouchner, the Foreign Minister, was stressing the new humility on the radio this morning. "Europe is an exercise against arrogance," he said. "Europe is an exercise against one-self." In other words, it's about accepting the interests of others.

The first test for Sarko's capacity for humility will be when he visits Dublin on July 11 to explore what to do about the Irish "no" to the Lisbon treaty. His initial reaction was to demand a new Irish vote but he quickly went quiet as Dublin was given four months to come up with a suggestion.

Europe is in for a bumpy six months as Sarkozy tries to push through measures to please the citizenry and show that the Union serves a purpose. Some of his ideas, like dropping energy taxes and shoring up protection for European farmers will run into opposition from Britain, Germany and others. But it will probably do Europe good to have a touch of Super Sarko's enthusiasm and energy.

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[below: official logo of the French EU presidency, produced under the "artistic direction" of Philippe Starck. The super-designer has also created a two-euro coin, of which 20 million will be minted, and an array of chic commemorative goodies to be handed out to officials, ministers and journalists. ] 

Comments

[richard.jones]

First of all let me clear the ground and restate my allegiances. During the presidential election campaign and through until the first transport strike and even through his marital tiffs and taffs and the eventual marriage to Carla, I was pro-Sarkozy.

This is no longer true. This does not mean I now support the Segolene Socialist opposition: it simply means I am now anti-Sarkozy.

Right! All this man is now doing is underlining France as the EU destroyer (see plenty of other posts - especially in Irish nil thread)in close, antagonistic partnership with UK.
'Bubbles' Merkel, as the most mature EU leader has rightfully put him in his place but all Sarko has done is underline his intention to carry on with some almost doctrines that cause popular disaffection in the group of nations - a senior committee of which he is chairing for only 6 months, one of which is August a dead month politically.
Doctrines - We France will continue, and we do not think it has anything to do with our own people or any other members' peoples (IR, HL and maybe CZ), towards political union and an economic model in the EU that reflects the French way of doing things. This implies perpetual French 'leadership' of the EU.
The man would be much better advised to sit and listen and look at resolving the democratic deficit' and the CAP horror as soon as possible in the EU.
And, for God's sake, start fixing his own mangled mess of a country as he promised to do on election 14 months ago.
I know this is strong language but it needs to be said. A major European power is now led (and France has the most constitutionally powerful president in the world) not by a statesman but by a spoilt, impatient brat (they know the address). If this man continues to 'reign' this way it will not be too long before some countries (UK, of course, deliriously to the fore) are asking if France should be in the EU unless she doers certain things.
Sarko does have ideas and some good ones but the aura which projects (hurls them is a better term) at a more and more cynical EU needs a massive overhaul.
Slovenia is next, if Sarko runs true to form, they'll need some big shovels.

PS - Without any consultation with anybody, France is pushing for Internet browsing access for the USA on EU citizens!!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4232264.ece
Too much, too quick, too often and too on his own. And an example of protectionism Sarko does nothing about.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/30/business/ftel.php

Need a change of attitude or a change of régime!

[richard.jones]

Wrong Internet ref. Sorry - Tired and very annoyed
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/audio/2008/jun/30/personal.data.europe

[dot king]

"In Paris, Nicolas, you are the Sun King. But Europe is like Germany, a coalition of diverging interests. You need a lot of patience and skill". (CB article)

Cor! Did she really say that? Being his political equal (at least), she can allow herself the outspokenness that the sycophants surrounding him in France can't.

"an array of chic commemorative goodies to be handed out to officials, ministers and journalists." (CB article)

I wonder if they still make Blackpool rock in the shape of a set of false teeth? And dangly lavatory earrings.
For downmarket trashiness, this guy's got nothing on The Golden Mile!

[Roy Harris]

Tired and emotional? Come back later on this, Richard! "Spoilt brat" indeed!

[Dominique]

Richard Jones is a tipical arrogant style of an undemocratic elite.

"french ways of doing things" etc...If politics is about "waiting for others to agree", then politics is dead. Politics is not about consensus, it is about proposing something, try to convince and get elected. Consensus is a fake technical notion killing politics, values and ideologies.

Why should we considere the german model as the one to follow? "Europe is like Germany" did Mrs Merkel say. Well, if that is not arrogance...i wonder what it is...why not trying to finaly have political action possible at the european level? Isn't that what democracy is all about?

I do not usually support Sarkozy, but the very idea that he should be blamed for being political instead of week "Baroso style" technician is really what kills democracy at the EU level.

According to you, who is alowed to make politics at the EU level? administration? unelected people? the german cancellor only?

I have a bad news for you Richard : you can't really change the people... And the people want politicians with power in order to organise things, not to just "let it go". Otherwise, why bother?

More, you are probably aware that France did actually lauch the european project in order to generate more political power, not less. If you believe that France did that in order to let political power vanish in a week "consensual" minimal political action, i am afraid you are wrong. The purpose of Europe, according to the french, is to increase political power, not to diminish it. The referendum of 2005 was clearly showing that.

The more the EU will work on a "consensus" mode, the more the french will strengthen their political representativs in order to have more weight.

Since 2000 years, the very purpose of the french national project is to mutualize. The european project was a way to continue this mutualization. If it is no longer the case, then the french will just stop being interested. Sarko and Kouchner among them. That's a fact.

If the EU does not get it, then we'll see the french people more and more going their own way. Maybe you'll favor this, but this would undoubtly be the end of the european adventure.

You remind me of those who claim "people don't vote right, let's change the people!"

[richard.jones]

Roy,

Dear boy I am tired and very disillusioned but what's wrong with spoilt brat, or am I restricted to twerp as in prior descriptions!

French Intelligence have my address and can no doubt, as long as it's before 06:00:00 01/07/2008 come round and do me over with giant genetically modified courgettes enscribed with 'CAP this'!!

[PAUL]

I wish someone would explain why politics is such an emotional issue on which normally rational people so often lose a sense of proportion. Whether or not one agrees with his politics, "downmarket trashiness" or "spoilt brat" are totally inappropriate to Sarkozy who, like him or not, is a brilliant man by any standards. He may overestimate his powers but how would his electorate react if his every speech spelt gloom and desolation? On second thoughts, perhaps he should do just that for his "nation of moaners".

[Roy Harris]

Why French Intelligence should have Richard's address is not made clear. Not, I trust, a problem of "folie des grandeurs". In the case of Sarkozy, neither "spoilt brat" or twerp" are appropriate if taken literally. No need to spell out details in this instance.

[Daisy]

"But it will probably do Europe good to have a touch of Super Sarko's enthusiasm and energy."

In other words, 6 months of the high-heeled jackass and his low-heeled poptart strutting about the European stage doing photo-ops. Like an energetic and enthusiastic puppy, he'll just end up peeing on your leg.

Between him and that other overhyped, overrated and overexposed fool, Obama, I am restricted to watching the Food Newtwork these days.

[richard.jones]

Roy,
No problem with 'Bubbles' Merkel then! or doppeldumbkopf Brown!

[richard.jones]

Dominique,

When the people have been allowed to vote they have voted mostly 'No' because and France has the image of being the leader in this with Sarko at the tiller, the people do not feel they are consulted anymore on anything. Your phrase about 'changing the people' is exectly how the average EU citizen feels at the moment.
This attitude and the British wool-dyed 'if its French it's wrong and we Brits must stop it' attitude are the two great EU spoilers at the moment (well for the last 30 years).

[richard.jones]

Daisy,

Don't put your address on the blog, otherwise 'les courgettes' will be round tomorrow.

[richard.jones]

Dominique,

Doing things ideologically without majority support is called autocracy, dictatorship (if only one guy is doing it). It is not called democracy, which the 27 countries' peoples would like to think that they retain as members of the EU. They have not kept as much as they would like to think.
I did not put anything to do with Germany's versimilitude to Europe in Merkel's mouth - you did.
I am tired and can only assume that you misread my post as being supporting(PRO) that governmental élite government method, rather than as it says, vociferously against (ANTI) an undemocratically placed élite, doing things with no democratic accountability to the people.

[rocket]

The flags in the official logo look like they're drooping like a limp d**k

They also ressemble "à un mouchoir"

Maybe Europe's "you know what" is feeling a little limp right now

Maybe that's where Philippe Starck's head is at the moment.

Why aren't they flotting proudly as does the Star Spangled Banner?

[azloon]

[overexposed fool, Obama] Daisy

overexposed, maybe.

fool, probably not

(france could use a fool like him)

btw, men like Giada De Laurentis. some women too.

[Daniel Strohl]

Daisy,

Regular bloggers here know who you don't like - it would be interesting to know who YOU like ... May be Besancenot in France ? I don't know if there is an American counterpart to this gentleman - I doubt it.

PS : TERRY - if you are around - you should be interested to know that Olivier Besancenot has just launched le "Nouveau Parti Anticapitaliste". Once more, we are the undisputed spearhead of political progress!

[Just Tired]

Isn't it a bit rich for the EU, having given Mugabe the idea about voting-till-you-get-it-right, to send Le Roi Bling-King to go to Dublin to sort out the Paddies ? And I thought the French got rid of royalty ? Oh Well !

[Mary Fernandez]

Daisy

"In other words, 6 months of the high-heeled jackass and his low-heeled poptart strutting about the European stage doing photo-ops."

LOL!

"Between him and that other overhyped, overrated and overexposed fool, Obama,..."

Wow, batting a 1000 today!

[John Gregory Flinn]

"His management style, according to those who work with him, is to decide before hearing the arguments from around the table."

I think that is a misuse of the word (management), but there's also this:-

"They [the Irish] are bloody fools. They have been stuffing their faces at Europe's expense for years and now they dump us in the s***." - Nicolas Sarkozy, French President (Times, 20 June)"

Enough of this man!

Dominique makes a good point about the original purpose being to increase political power - I think that is true. The problem is others - especially the UK - see that as 'code' for increasing France's political power and, inevitably, its hegemony in Europe.

For me that is not necessarily a problem EXCEPT that the 'political power' has become of the left.

The left have managed to recover and lay claim to the politic despite their setbacks over acceptance of market economics, the demise of marxism and their general unpopularity.

They have now taken up a newish polemic, which dear Jacques Chirac fell prey to in his twilight years called 'socialization'.
This is not necessarily socialism although it usually ends up there - out of sheer boredom!
'Socialization' is market economics with a social conscience, where intervention by the state occurs at every stage, at every level and in every enterprise.

In short some state busybody will be checking that all the notions of the government of the day are reflected in the decisions made by the enterprise.
If not the enterprise will be denied government contracts, suffer penalties and generally denounced as discriminatory, sexist, anti-green, against safety, homophobic etc.
It's a sort of political quality plan enforced by politicians.

To a greater or lesser extent all the EU mambers have become craven to this politic.
It is bureaucratic, unionized, essentially leftist, consensus- building and, ipso facto, an epitome, more or less, of the EU!

Thus, the EU of today can never achieve the original purpose that Dominique quotes.
And I fear the EU will eventually fracture along this fault-line as he, and Richard Jones - perhaps unwittingly - outline.

[Daisy]

Mary: It's good to be appreciated. I take you're not one of the "les courgettes"? :)

Daniel Strohl: Who do I like? I have been known to like a few people and, here are a few in no particular order.

a] I like the King of Bhutan who brought democracy to his people. It's a wee country but bless 'em.
b] I like Bill Gates for making billions and spending it on helping people. He could have bought lots of yachts etc.
c] I like Melinda Gates for not going the route of charity balls. For once I feel like I can say "She didn't marry him for his money".
d] I like Robert Rubin (Fmr Clinton Treasury Secy. Probably not well-known to Europeans) for being a calm head in an otherwise turbulent world. Pity he wasn't running the economy now.
e] I like the Spanish football team for winning in style. Viva Espana!
f] I like George Clooney and Brad Pitt, but that's a girl thing.
g] Besancenot,why not? I can like him especially since he doesn't hold public office. It's his best quality. But if he wins anything...
h] I like the Queen of England for being dutiful in an age when leaders are narcisistic and self-serving.
i] I like Nelson Mandela for being so forgiving and making the peaceful transition of power in his country possible.
j] I like the Dalai Lama for his sense of humour. Not many religious figures have one.
k] I like Abraham Lincoln for being so self-effacing. He wasn't even the keynote speaker at Gettysburg yet his words live (note to all the loud mouth attention-seekers currently in office)
l] I like Harper Lee for writing my favourite book in the world and for knowing when to bow out. Is there an Atticus Finch among us?
m] I like teachers who despite being dumped on constantly and hated by students, still do their jobs. Without teachers, there would be no accountants, lawyers etc.
n] I like Canada for being peaceful, democratic, tolerant, clean and laid-back and for having such short elections. Happy Birthday Canada!

Azloon: re Obama - no one can live up to that kind of hype and expectation. And once he's elected, the press will give him what they are failing to give now: Scrutiny! The problem is that US elections go on for so long that you start to hate these idiots whether you want to or not. Europeans aren't inundated and saturated with it as we are here in North America. The coverage is relentless. Nothing else exists and only a natural disaster or the economy can knock it off the headlines. It's like the neighbour who listens to the same song over and over.

Though, I do like Giada, she's so nice and perky. I liked her show about her weekend trip to Paris.

Charles: if I hurt your feelings in any way, I apologise to you. Murdoch, however, is still ....

[thomasine]

Daisy, go eat and drink and be merry...

[Daniel Strohl]

Daisy,

Thanks for your kind answer. I do also like most of the things or persons you like, even if I do not know all of them ...

I spent one week in Canada in 1995. Your description fits perfectly well!

[christopher muir]

Most international leaders are riding bucking horses. Who wants to be an incumbent facing the energy crisis, the economic crisis, the increasing Kabul problems, a looming (?) flu pandemic and so on? Their troubles start with exaggerated claims during election campaigns. Nothing really seems truly predictable any longer, so a torrent of unexpected events paints stunned politicians into lonely corners. Another upcoming Sarkozian headache could be the $36 billion US refueling air tanker project which sidelined Boeing and faces a dispute. Not a nice one to fall over, if it were to.

[Doremi ( not Dot)]

Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy 6 months!
It should be fun too. I look forward to Merkel to burst his little bubble of oleaginous charm.
She has a doctorate on Quantum chemistry.

Daisy
Dalai Lama & Canada : right on.
Bill Gates: nerds don't tan well. So great he is taking all the money from the software and doing something good with it.I am with Mac.

[rocket]

France's EU Presidency Set to Break Spending Record

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3452293,00.html

Somewhat tragic when the rest of us are making sacrifices but not totally unexpected when the French are in charge of something.

[Frogsmoker]

Hasn't anybody else noticed where that logo comes from?
(http://frogsmoke.com/2008/06/30/how-to-make-a-logo-for-the-french-eu-presidency/)

[azloon]

[Azloon: re Obama - no one can live up to that kind of hype and expectation. And once he's elected, the press will give him what they are failing to give now: Scrutiny!]

Daisy -- totally agree, but i think BO (nice) can withstand scrutiny better than the current occupant of/imbecile in the white house (is there another word to describe him?). i am more interested in the u.s. rebuilding international credibility and not so much in every obama position (such as refusing public election financing, a bonehead, hypocritical move). i share your disgust with the drawn out u.s. election process, and the nitpicking that bombards us daily in the name of 'news.' i don't watch/listen.

i loved your list. gives an idea how far and wide-ranging we must roam to find good. bill and linda gates, canada, lincoln, mandela, spain and spanish football would have been on my list as well. brad pitt and george clooney are a different magnitude of goodness. as is my equivalent -- the featured female in each month's esquire mag in a section called 'women we love.' can make a grown man weep. :)

[Terry]

Daniel said:

"PS : TERRY - if you are around - you should be interested to know that Olivier Besancenot has just launched le "Nouveau Parti Anticapitaliste". Once more, we are the undisputed spearhead of political progress!"

I am always around. Lurking. Ready to pounce. You may not always know it, but I am here.

I like the "nouveau" in the name. It always has to be "new". As if they are expressing a new anticaptilism we havent seen before. I amused to see the same phenomena in France. In the US, during the 1940s-50s, we had the communists. Then we had "The New Left" in the sixties, followed by Hippies, Yippies, Liberals and now progressives. It's the same foolishness repackaged under a new name. Indeed, it sounded like the French socialist party was doing the same thing.

Capitalism is merely when the means of production is privately owned. Is that what they are against? Do they want the government to own the farms, cheese stores, renault factories, stores, etc.?

Capitalism is what puts food on the table. I dont own any chickens. If I want eggs, I go to the store and purchase them. Eggs are available to me only because of capitalism. The farmer grows chickens and produces eggs not for my benefit, but so that he can receive cash to buy things that he cant produce. It's not greed. It's trading. This is how the entire system works. During the Cold War, Russia couldnt feed itself because it refused to accept this simple concept. Is that what "Nouveau Parti Anticapitaliste" wants to do for France?

Some people assume the oefs and the fromage will always be there. Venezualens have recently learned otherwise.

"Anti Capitalists" are self professed intellectuals who cannot compete in a capitalist system. They are really interested in one thing-their own power. They are social engineers who want to reorder society so that they are on top rather than Bill Gates or Ducasse.

[Daniel Strohl]

Terry,

"I am always around. Lurking"

LOL ! In the Bible, this would read : "L'oeil de Caïn était toujours là" :))

[Helen]

Comic relief:
really liked the photograph at the top of the page. It's what we call 'un symbole phallique' in literature courses in France.

[Peter Mason]

I'm always bemused by those who become indignant about Country A or Country B using the EU as an instrument for national aggrandisement within Europe. Surely that is the true purpose of the institution? Post 1945 the prospect of old-style attempts to dominate Europe became impossible as one major Power (Germany) was divided and occupied, a general conflict would open the gates to Soviet incursions, and the old Anglo-French rivalry was kept from conflict by the simple fact that both possessed nukes. Belgium's role as 'the cockpit of Europe' received a make-over as the columns of soldiers marching across her were replaced by diplomats and bureaucrats 'fighting' for Continental domination in political corridors in Brussels and using Directives and regulations instead of guns and cold steel to impose their national vision on the rest of Europe.

My participation in an EU Forum on the Constitution changed me from a Europhile to a definite Eurosceptic as we debated proposals on 'forcing' the new East European member states to surrender much of their culture, or the proposed clause stating that one aim of the Constitution be that 'Anglo-Saxon' culture and behaviour be expunged from the whole of Europe. Even today many ordinary Europeans are quite clear that the role of the EU is as an instrument of national assertion or revenge against other Europeans. Topics currently being blogged on the EU's own 'Have Your Say' site include revenge on the Turks for atrocities against Armenians in WW1, both camps in the current Macedonian issue seeking EU intervention on their behalf, a thread that seems to advocate 'punishment' of the English for the Irish Potato Famine in the 19th century, and a Scots Nationalist proposal that the EU help form/support a 'Celtic' 'anti-Saxon' [sic] alliance. (Those living along the Elbe can rest easy, the proposers were simply translating sassanach, it's basically an anti-English Alliance.)

If M Sarkozy does attempt to follow a 'Napoleonic' agenda he'll simply be conforming to the EU's primary purpose.

[christopher muir]

Anybody who witnessed the demise in mid-2000 of Russia's NTV knows that a president taking too great an interest in a TV station presents dangers. Putin hated NTV for its bold coverage of Chechnya and the savage satire of the Kukly puppets.
A station that had pioneered serious Russian TV investigative journalism ("Itogi") was emasculated overnight. Tax fraud was the official reason. Putin met with concerned NTV senior staff in the Kremlin. He smiled a lot - part of the meeting was screened.
Those who had objected to his interference quickly lost their jobs. Staff lacking moral fibre remained employed. Since that time, NTV news has become a Kremlin tool. Sarkozy's reference to Siberia may not be all that amusing. (YouTube has quite a few editions of Kukly.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmQ_euzt1Ak

[John Gregory Flinn]

TERRY;
Right on!
Your last post illustrated well what I was trying to say (rather obscurely) earlier.

[Dominique]

Terry, still around and still locked into old simple ways of thinking...

"Capitalism is what puts food on the table. I dont own any chickens. If I want eggs, I go to the store and purchase them. Eggs are available to me only because of capitalism."

really? i thought it was the chicken who made the eggs, not the tradder in wallstreet. The trader is able to sell eggs because the chicken was there at the first place.

The tradder did not invent the egg. Nature did. And nature is not here thanks to capitalism. I rather have the fealing that if we let capitalism go it's own way, nature won't last very long...not to mention the egg!

Actually, we could even write that nature is here despite capitalism.

Please note that the very same capitalism does not provide eggs to all stores in the same way. Capitalism is very discriminatory indeed! It provides eggs to those who can afford it only! More, it often makes stores empty! Those starving in front of empty stores will probably be happy to learn that capitalism is working in some places.... At the expense of others?

Tradding is a human way of organizing things (or disorganize rather). Nothing to do with the ability to eat eggs.

[FC]

Dominique... just how many empty stores have you come across in France? If you want empty stores go visit a communist utopia.

[Daisy]

Azloon: you do have to look far and wide but after all is said and done, the world isn't such a big place after all. I'm glad those people exist because I tell you, one trip on public transport is enough to ruin my faith in humanity, then I get to go home and watch the finger-jabbing, finger- pointing politicians on the news!

[dot king]

"Dominique... just how many empty stores have you come across in France? If you want empty stores go visit a communist utopia."
FC

I don't think Dominique is defending communist utopia here (a contradiction in terms, or a palindrome maybe) I think he means that capitalism is all very well as long as you are rich enough to pay for your share of what it has to offer. The "store" is a metaphor, I think.
I rather understood him as making a comparison North vs South, for example. A human rather than a political comparison.

[Dominique, lost in translation...]

Thanks Dot K

at least some one is able to access abstraction.

FC : what does communism have to do with what i said? Do you mean nature is communist because it is not capitalist?

[FC]

Dot.. then I don't undersand his point... is capitalism to blame?

[FC]

Dominique.. forgive me, I thought you were using abstraction to belittle Terry's comment that capitalism is what puts the food on most people's tables (based on the fact that most people are not self sufficient in food)... The question as to whether "nature is communist because it is not capitalist"... was that one of the philosophy questions in this year's Bac?

[Dominique]

FC,

Yes, capitalism is to blame for a lot of reasons. But it is to thank for many others.

Blaming it doesn't mean we should get rid of it. But thinking of organizing it should be allowed without being chased as a ..."communist" oooohhhhhhh!

See? world is complex...Any how, capitalism is clearly not the Alpha and Omega of the world as Terry said it was.

[dot king]

FC I think "hidden" in Dominique's post was the idea that some things exist with or without capitalism.

In human terms, capitalism doesn't ensure that everyone who needs eggs gets them, its being understood that not everyone knows someone who owns a hen ;D

[rocket]

Dominique

"Blaming it doesn't mean we should get rid of it. But thinking of organizing it should be allowed without being chased as a ..."communist" oooohhhhhhh!"

Why do I get the cold shivers when I read a Frenchman tell about how capitalism should be organized.

[Dominique]

I don't know Rocket...you should explain.

What is so scary about it? welfare state? healthcare? public services? loi sur le littoral? etc etc...?

Ah, which came first? The trader or the egg?

"Blaming it (capitalism) doesn't mean we should get rid of it. But thinking of organizing it should be allowed"

Dominique, I think I've forgotten more than you'll ever know about economics. The beauty of capitalism is that it is NOT organized. No one controls the levers on the economy. This is because no one can know all the information necessary to determine pricing. For example, if demand for eggs increases, the store manager sees his supplies decreasing and orders more eggs from the farmer. The farmer may need more chickens to buy more eggs, buy more feed, and hire more help. The increased demand means increased costs, which trickle back up to the store resulting in a higher price. The higher price actually PREVENTS shortages. SOme people will not buy eggs because of the higher price and buy corn flakes. This helps the supply. The problem of empty stores comes when bureaucrats intervene in the pricing. These bureaucrats do not have the knowledge or in a position to correctly determine what is the "right" price for eggs. But they might impose a price freeze anyway. This is precisely what happened in venezuela. Chavez set the price of milk above what it cost to make it. The result was that farmers stopped selling milk because it made no sense to sell it at a loss. The stores suddenly had no milk. Also, some farmers started selling their cows for meat and stop caring for their fields. So, Dominique, THAT is how you end up with empty stores. Government organization of the market. Where do we see empty stores? Everywhere where there is "organization".

To bring this back to France and Europe, this is my fear of the EU. Socialist EU bureaucrats want to organize the economy just like Chavez. The ironic thing is that these bureaucrats always blame capitalism after they cause all the problems.

"Five Year Plans" went out with the Dodo, Dominique.

[Dominique]

to unknown Posted by: | 3 Jul 2008 03:29:49

You quote me : ""Blaming it (capitalism) doesn't mean we should get rid of it. But thinking of organizing it should be allowed"

--> that's quite dishonest; my complete words were : "Blaming it (capitalism) doesn't mean we should get rid of it. But thinking of organizing it should be allowed without being called a communist monster" (or something similar). Even GW Bush, capitalist beacon thinks that. The US is organizing capitalism very much : not everything is allowed on the market.

"which came first? The trader or the egg?"
--> definitly the egg! how come don't you know that? where did you go to school?

"I think I've forgotten more than you'll ever know about economics. The beauty of capitalism is that it is NOT organized. "

--> you're probably right. I find no beauty in capitalism. Neither in any social human science. I find beauty in landscapes, art, birds, music etc..

"No one controls the levers on the economy."

--> some certainly controle absolutly nothing, that's right. Other control much more. Open your eyes.

"SOme people will not buy eggs because of the higher price and buy corn flakes. "

--> you always forget the main point : some won't even buy cornflakes! they'll buy nothing because the fod is gone to some place wher people can "buy" eggs & cornflakes. You view is blind to a big part of humanity. More, how come do you accept that only those who can afford it can eat eggs?

"THAT is how you end up with empty stores. Government organization of the market. Where do we see empty stores? Everywhere where there is "organization"."

--> Well, i did not know Sudan and Darfour where very well organized and that this "organization" was the reason for starvation. Neither did i noticed that Afghanistan, Benghladesh, Niger, etc... were beacon of "state regulation" full of bureaucrates. They suffer disorganization more. I didn't notice either that stores were empty in Sweden, France, Germany, Butan, Tunisia, Japan, South Korea, the EU, etc...

"Organization" and "communism" are two different words, therefore have two different meanings. I feel like you are stuck into pre-1989 world.

"Five Year Plans" are making huge comebacks because of energy and food crises. Climate also. Kyoto is actually a 12 years plan. Mac Cain is talking of a 20 years plan. Any reponsible politician has to make plans. Otherwise, what is their purpose?

Welcome in today's world : a world limited to the reality of planet earth and where "plans" are needed and fashionned again.

[Daniel Strohl]

Dominique,

I suspect Terry to be the unknown poster ... if not, it is a clone of him !

[terry]

I am the anon. Sometimes, this site erases my information.

[FC]

Dominique "Welcome in today's world : a world limited to the reality of planet earth and where "plans" are needed and fashionned again."

and who makes these plans and with what mandate? who are these people who know what's best for everyone else?

[Dominique]

FC,

Elected people! That's the very purpose of election : implement plans choosen by citizens