French teachers strike again

We're enduring another day of the old French civil war today. About 45 percent of the country's 800,000 state school teachers have gone on strike, along with a smaller proportion of the five million civil service. Tens of thousands of high-school pupils are out marching with them [picture is from Nantes this afternoon].

This means that millions of parents have once again been forced to find someone to take care of their kids so they can go to work. Town councils allied to the government are offering basic supervision at schools but the majority with leftwing mayors -- including Paris -- are refusing to do so. Providing this minimum service amounts to strike-breaking, they say.

The cause of the "mobilisation", as the strikers and media call the stoppage, is the noble one of defending public service. President Sarkozy is accused of dismantling France's cherished services with cuts to teaching staff and civil service posts. Schools are to lose 11,000 teaching posts in the autumn. One in three civil servants is not being replaced on retirement from this year.

The classic battle lines have been drawn up. From the moral high ground, the left applauds resistance to the destruction of the national heritage and depicts its opponents as stooges of a brutal rightwing Government. Those on the other side, branded "rightwing" by the left, lament the obstructive, conservative reflexes of the state functionaries.

France elected Super Sarko to perform a radical cure a year ago, but on days like this you get the impression that nothing has changed.

The old class bitterness -- born in the ancient conflicts that we often visit here -- seems to rage on. Things are changing, but not much when it comes to the huge, centrally-commanded education system. There is no sense of consensus on the need to reform. The unions, supported by all opposition parties, oppose any reduction in staff numbers, despite the shrinking student population. They have demonised Xavier Darcos, the Education Minister, as the evil "Darkos Vader". Their case is indulgently relayed by media which often fail to offer the counter-argument.

Yet, there are signs of a new realism. A striking one came today from le Nouvel Observateur, weekly bible of the leftish thinking classes. While supporting the teachers, le Nouvel Obs actually made the government's case for reform. Here it is:
   
It is time to rethink secondary education. French kids spend longer in class, and they have more teachers yet they perform less well than those in other countries... Curricula that are too heavy and abstract discourage a significant number of pupils. Most countries in Europe have improved the efficiency of their education system by rethinking their teaching methods and their courses.   

French teachers are not paid well enough, said the Obs, but they would have to work more to justify higher pay "as happens everywhere else in Europe". Those are indeed fighting words coming from the voice of the lefty establishment.

Sarkozy's argument is simple. Reform is needed because French tax-payers spend more than those in most countries on educating their children, yet they perform poorly. Eric Woerth, the budget minister, said this morning that spending on high-school children was 20 percent above the OECD average. Yet they placed 32nd in the last 57-nation OECD survey of the performance of 15-year-olds (The school establishment of course says that the OECD's so-called PISA survey is biased against French-style education.) The money has to be spent on making the system work, not on maintaining an excessive number of teachers, says Darcos.

I know that some regulars here will accuse me of simplifying and resorting to conservative stereotypes. I know that France has problems that others lack -- such as a big, excluded immigrant population. And bungling by successive governments has made reform especially hard. And I know that French teachers are as dedicated as those anywhere. 

But as the father of two teenagers in the system, I can see the drawbacks. They spring from uninspiring, old-fashioned teaching from negative-thinking staff. The teachers are saddled with an unimaginative, centrally commanded curriculum.

Many governments over the past 30 years have capitulated to strikes and given up on reform. Sarkozy and Darcos, a senior educator by profession, say that they will not do so. I have a feeling that they won't.

Comments

[azloon]

[The teachers are saddled with an unimaginative, centrally commanded curriculum] CB

sounds/smells like china (i know several former teachers in chinese public schools), where female public school teachers must retire at 50 (to make way for a new wave of recent education graduates), and curricula is prescribed to the letter.

in the u.s., teachers don't take lightly or cheerfully cutbacks in staff. but take it they do, and they go out and find new jobs. imagine that!

french teachers, and functionaires of all sorts, seem to fear job loss to a paralyzing degree. and with good reason. there ARE no "other" jobs to go to. the system is "locked."

[GAG]

My three children were all educated in France and while I admire the primary system, I think the secondary system is a disaster. During my children’s education I met many teachers and hence I disagree with Charles’ comment about French teacher’s level of dedication. I gained the impression from those secondary teachers that I spoke with that their commitments were to holidays, retirement and to their own comforts, with the children’s needs always coming after their own.

Just recently my wife and I were comparing our children’s reports gained while in the U.K. with those in France. The difference is astounding. The U.K. reports are full of encouragement and show a positive attitude, even in subjects that were difficult for the child. The French reports are, on the whole, negative and show little enthusiasm. I should add that my children are all perfectly bi-lingual, so the problem wasn’t one of language. It appeared to me that the majority of their teachers were totally naive and had little idea how to create a rapport with young adults, who in most cases appeared to be of a greater maturity.

On many occasions my wife and I were shocked by the childish attitude shown by our children’s teachers when any of their own pre-set ideas were politely contradicted by us. Charles is correct in saying that the system is inflexible, but so are the teachers. It is virtually impossible for a student to debate with a French teacher (except in philosophy) and any that express opposing views in politics are quickly told to be quiet. When my children first commented on this, I thought they were exaggerating. But since I have spoken with many parents whose children have experienced a similar reaction. On one occasion my youngest daughter had the unfortunate experience of having to listen to a female teacher in a full classroom say that the U.K. should be thrown out of Europe, the Brits were the worst Europeans and that all British food was rubbish. It wasn’t until my daughter stood up in the class and said “that’s enough” that her teacher stopped her discourse.

On the positive side, my children have gone on to good careers, although not in France, the job market being just as inflexible as the education system. Luckily, employers in other European countries still believe that a good French BAC result and a few years at a French university consist of a respectable education.
GAG

[Léo]

Thank you Charles for these comments.

I am in Singapore as I am reading your blog and it really hurts to realize how much off the mark our marvellous country is. It could be Paradise on earth if only my compatriots could sense that trying to improve it to adapt to a changing world rather than holding on to old ways would improve our lives.

Pauvre France; how many boats have we missed and how many opportunities will pass by us until we realize that it is too late...

[Daniel Strohl]

Azloon,

"french teachers, and functionaires of all sorts, seem to fear job loss to a paralyzing degree. and with good reason. there ARE no "other" jobs to go to. the system is "locked."

Azloon, regarding teachers, NONE of them will be fired. As Charles said, the government intends simply not to replace 1/3 of the teachers going in retirement.

"Functionnaires of all sorts" can not be fired either. The aim of the government is to reduce their number by not replacing 50% of those going in retirement.

Considering the economic situation and the "mondialisation", this process is quite civilized. In other European countries (and in Canada, if I remember well), methods used to "trim" the civil service were much more drastic.

"I know that France has problems that others lack -- such as a big, excluded immigrant population" (Charles) - this is of course a big problem, but which is not limited to France. As far as I know, the Netherlands for instance have also many immigrants and integration problems with them. However, the Dutch PISA scoring is much better than ours. And I am not sure that Dutch is much easier to learn say for an immigrant of Indonesian origin than French for an African immigrant.

"of the leftish thinking classes" (Charles)

If one looks at the education mess right now, "leftist thinking classes" is a bitter oxymoron.

[Jess]

I worked as a teacher in a French school for a year (assistant d'anglais). There was only one teacher (out of 30-odd) who wasn't a communist – and she was all but shunned by the rest. The teachers saw it as their state-conferred duty to inculcate the kids with their brand of leftist politics at every opportunity. The totalitarian ferocity of the onslaught was such that no young person, no matter how thoughtful and independent-minded, could have left that lycée with views unbiassed by socialist thinking on almost any topic you care to mention. It blew my mind that this went entirely unchallenged by ANYONE. Parents, kids, fonctionnaires... all seemed either oblivious or apparently approving.

[rocket]

"It is time to rethink secondary education. French kids spend longer in class, and they have more teachers yet they perform less well than those in other countries... Curricula that are too heavy and abstract discourage a significant number of pupils. Most countries in Europe have improved the efficiency of their education system by rethinking their teaching methods and their courses."

God forbid I should say that! I would be treated as a French basher

[John Gregory Flinn]

"They spring from uninspiring, old-fashioned teaching from negative-thinking staff."

H'mm!
I'm not sure I agree Charles (or with GAG), because my experience is different.

My two have spent the last 3+ years at College and Lycée, so it may be a little early to be sure.
But they came from a private school in the UK and both systems compare well.

The standard of the Lycée reminds me of the UK grammar schools, while the College is better than the average secondary comprehensive.

I have taught Sciences and Maths at all types of school in the north east of England for a dozen or so years before retiring here. So I am well aquainted with the very variable standards there.
I have not taught in France, but the progress of my two here has been very satisfying.
My daughter left Lycée with a Science-BAC + mention, and has gone on to an IUT in Bethune studying 'Genie Civil'.

Maybe my experience has been different because I tend to only make assessments of the schools' standards and teaching in the Sciences, Maths and French.
Any discussions with teachers have usually involved the merits of solving maths or physics problems, fluency in French but not politics.

Teachers are not paid as well here as in the UK, but seem better respected and certainly mark the pupils' work quite thoroughly. There is much less Sports activities here which is a pity. However this does'nt seem to adversely affect their enthusiasm, or their prowess, for games and athletics later.

To obtain the same standard of education in the UK my children would have had to attend private school, and comcomitantly cost us a great deal, (even the private schools' fees here are a fraction of those in the UK).
Up to now I have nothing to complain about, their leftist politics has little impact on numerate subjects, and anyway is little different from that of Teachers in England.

[Ros]

I agree with John Gregory Flinn , my
two sons (now grown-up) had a satisfactory schooling in France. But no doubt this is just "luck" or "bad luck" = what kind of teachers you have etc (they don't ALL talk politics nor are they ALL communists (even in the" Midi Rouge"
where we used to live. Also the geographical ( sorry for bad spelling) situation counts - mine went to Maternelle, Primaire & College in a small town where everyone knew & were friendly with the teachers & only went to a large town for the Lycée - there the problem was the terrific competition which I don't think is found in UK.
Sometimes I wonder if Charles doesn't invent words for our pleasure - what on earth are the "leftish thinking classes" - ?all the Leftists do not Think & all those who Think are not Leftists & why replace "ist" by "ish" ?(it would be nice if we could write in italics here & underline too) - I suppose it's been translated from the French "intellos" - some think and some don't.

[John]

I don't agree with this idea that French teachers and professors try to inculcate left values in the mind of their pupils. I went to French high school (Collège and Lycée), not so long ago, in a mid-sized town somewhere in southern France, and almost all my family is or has been working in the French public education system, so trust me I know the system from within. In fact I grew up in the collège where my dad was the intendant (bursar), and where he enjoyed free housing on site.

Most of the teachers are left-wing, that's quite true, but they are not Communist. In fact there are very few Communists in French high schools, and those who are Communist are known for that, people refer to them as being Communist when we talk about them. French teachers are in fact Socialists, by and large. From all the high schools my family and I have known, I'd say about 2/3 of teachers and professors are Socialists, 1/3 are right wing. At the collège where my mom was working, the best French literature teacher (a woman, all the parents wanted their children to be in her class) was right wing. The best German language teacher was right wing. The two best English language teachers were right wing. My mom was also right wing, and several more that I don't know.

Again from personal experience, I must say professors did not tell us about their political preferences either during or outside class (kids don't talk with professors outside of class anyway). It would have been impossible to guess the political affiliation of 99% of the professors I had (I attended one collège and one lycée, with tens of professors and teachers). When I was 13 our biology teacher was a Communist, she was known as such in the collège because as I said few professors are Communists, but during her classes you could never have guessed. She was actually pretty strict and right-wing in her manners.

In fact with most subjects the political affiliation of the professor is completely irrelevant (math, physics, drawing, English, French, these are not political subjects, there is no left-wing or right-wing way to approach them, so how could the professor express some political thoughts??). The only subjects where they could express political thoughts are history/geography and economics. Regarding economics, in my experience the teachers simply gave us the basic definitions (employment rate, inflation, etc.), without expressing political views. Regarding history/geography, I must say I had 7 teachers in total throughout collège and lycée, and they were just teaching us the subject without expressing personal preferences. The only times I thought they crossed the line was when they explained the Algerian War, both in collège and lycée. The way they explained it was very left-wing and anti pied-noir, very Libération’s vision of the Algerian War. In lycée when our teacher taught us the Algerian War I walked out of the classroom because, as the son of a pied-noir, I just couldn't stand his evil portrayal of pieds-noirs, responsible for everything that happened. The Algerian War is really the only time I thought my teachers crossed the line.

Other than that, my message is already quite long, there would be lots of things to say. Many professors have quirks it's true, some are depressed, some (very few) are not doing their job really, but as always in French society it's about connection and "piston". You need to work with the system, get cozy with the high school administration to have your kids get into the best classes that get the best teachers, thus avoiding the quirky and depressed teachers who are given the worst kids in general. That's what's wrong with the system, more than a conspiracy of left-wing teachers trying to inculcate left-wing ideas in the mind of innocent children.

Last but not least, 2/3 of teachers are Socialists like I said, and that's not going to change, so our political leaders should just take this as a given and maneuver to reform the system nonetheless. As we often joke with my parents, the teachers would oppose a reform put forward by a right-wing government even if the reform was a 100% copy and paste of SNES wishes (SNES is the main left-wing teacher union). Knee-jerk reaction at its best (or should I say worst?). Xavier Darcos, which my family happens to know a little, is very good and competent, he has deep knowledge of the system from within. Let's hope Sarkozy won't get rid of him (despite his failure to win reelection as mayor of Périgueux; that was a mistake, he should not have run again, now it's weakening him).

[Dominique]

To day in the school I work : only one teacher on strike (me? ;)). As a “young” teacher but an “older” french citizen who had the opportunity of working in what CB’s bloggers usually call “the real world”, i would suggest some of my own feelings about the french education system.

CB says : “This means that millions of parents have once again been forced to find someone to take care of their kids so they can go to work. Town councils allied to the government are offering basic supervision at schools but the majority with leftwing mayors -- including Paris -- are refusing to do so. Providing this minimum service amounts to strike-breaking, they say”

This will change according to Sarko’s speech tonight (one more empty promess?). This refusal of the left (and of the teacher’s unions) only shows, to my disappointment I must say, the poor view the left has about education. If the “service minimum” is “breaking the strike”, that means they see no difference between teachers and civil workers taking care of the kids. That means they see no difference between schools and what we call “centres aérés”. Shame on them! Or maybe, if they believe that the strike is “broken”, that shows the very purpose of the strike according to the unions : pissing people off ! Wy doesn’t anyone recall them that “service minimum” won’t teach their kids to read and write? Please don’t get me wrong : centres aérés are great for kids! Especially for those who’s parents need to work.

CB says : “The cause of the "mobilisation", as the strikers and media call the stoppage, is the noble one of defending public service. President Sarkozy is accused of dismantling France's cherished services with cuts to teaching staff and civil service posts. Schools are to lose 11,000 teaching posts in the autumn. One in three civil servants is not being replaced on retirement from this year. “

Not only! What CB describes is the usual official cause, heralded since I was born. There is an other reason for teachers to complain this year : the new programs in primary school. Teachers feel like everything they believe in is just erased by Xavier Darcos. 40 years of pedagogy based on “construction du savoir” is being denied by the Darcos team and a growing number of teachers (many of them young I will let you know). This pedagogy based on the idea that “knowledge can be understood by a child only if he discovers it all by himself” is loosing ground. The “triangle pedagogique” (child-teacher-knowledge) is being reengineered. The new programs are only recording this trend. This might be difficult to understand for english people because according to my colleagues who went to England to have a look at english schools, the british educational system is not so much into this “construction du savoir”. British adults still believe they own something they need to transmit. Germans are more, in a certain way. To make it clear, the “camp conservateur” is winning more and more ground in the french educational system, the IUFMs are under attack, the unions who believe they hold the truth are crying. The truth is also that any teacher following this “construction” pedagogy 100% needs to work one hour outside for every hour in a classroom. This pedagogy is demagogic if followed by 100%, uneconomic, forcing every teacher to reinvent everything by himself, make him feel guilty if he uses simple methods that just work, and worse, is dedicated either to bright children who are able to “reinvent” or socially upper class children who work at home and already know what we are talking about. In any case, difficult children, unstructured children, children who don’t “swim” in an interesting “cultural bath” are not able to make it. That is really the shame of the french left to support such an socially elitist pedagogy. The truth is that all these people are now under attack. MR Merieu’name, prince of this pedagogy for 30 years, was booed at the IUFM this year when he tried to set up a conference. May 68 is clearly dying on it’s 40th birthday, at least in educational matters.

CB says : “The old class bitterness -- seems to rage on. Things are changing, but not much when it comes to the huge, centrally-commanded education system. There is no sense of consensus on the need to reform. The unions, supported by all opposition parties, oppose any reduction in staff numbers, despite the shrinking student population. They have demonised Xavier Darcos, the Education Minister, as the evil "Darkos Vader". Their case is indulgently relayed by media which often fail to offer the counter-argument. “

I have to agree with this. With one difference though : the “centrally-commanded education system” is centralised only in theory. The very purpose of this educational system being itself lacking of sense of consensus. This is a very traditional french debate, really lying in the french identity since the french revolution : maybe a “dérive démocratique rousseauiste” : “What is school about ? raising kids, preparing them to real life? Of making them use the best of themselves?” Rousseau wrote it all in “L’Emile” in 1762. France is still stuck in these debates. Because it does not choose, it is lying in between, letting every teacher interpret what I would call a “non-program”., supposed to satisfy anyone but…what a kid should learn.

The nouvel obs says : “It is time to rethink secondary education. French kids spend longer in class, and they have more teachers yet they perform less well than those in other countries... Curricula that are too heavy and abstract discourage a significant number of pupils. Most countries in Europe have improved the efficiency of their education system by rethinking their teaching methods and their courses.”

Partly true. But I am not sure other european shool systems are that good, whatever PISA says. In french we say “au royaume des aveugles, les borgnes sont rois”.

CB says : “ (The school establishment of course says that the OECD's so-called PISA survey is biased against French-style education.)”.

My disagreement with CB : the school establishment is right! Has anyone here tried to read PISA testings and results? Who are they by the way? The only one able to test an educational system is the one who defines the goal of this educational system. What is it’s goal according to PISA? Does anyone know? Growth? Economy? Happiness? Citizenship? Peace?...war?

CB says : “And I know that French teachers are as dedicated as those anywhere. “

Thanks Charles !!

CB says : “They spring from uninspiring, old-fashioned teaching from negative-thinking staff. The teachers are saddled with an unimaginative, centrally commanded curriculum”.

It depends on what you call “negative-thinking “. What is negative about letting a child know what he does good and what he does wrong? About the “uninspiring, old-fashioned teaching”, maybe it is because since 40 years, some are told to be “imaginative, autonomous and have a complete freedom for their own pedagogy”. Does it make sens? Yes….Les injonctions à la liberté ne fonctionnent pas. Les injonctions au plaisir ne fonctionnent pas, les injonctions à la « construction du savoir » ne fonctionnent pas. Elles résultent le plus souvent dans un découragement des élèves, voire des enseignants . On se construit en s’appuyant sur des murs, pas dans une introspection réflexive permanente, de l’ordre de la démarche psychanalytique, qui, si elle déconstruit parfois les adultes pour de bonne raison, empêche souvent une grande partie des enfants de se construire, justement. Non à la construction du savoir, oui à la construction de l’enfant !

[Robert Marchenoir]

"French teachers are not paid well enough, said the Obs, but they would have to work more to justify higher pay 'as happens everywhere else in Europe'." (CB)

Wow! The Bible of the intellectual Left says that? Exactly what I wrote on another thread a few hours ago. Without having read the Nouvel Obs -- God forbid.

And, according to various contradictors, I'm supposed to be right-wing, ultra-liberal, neo-con, racist, fascist, you name it.

There's no trusting anyone anymore.

[Paul]

I hope the more biased reader will take time to think about the contributions, which reveal a complex picture of education in France. France needs to be interpreted. A few quick points. There is from an English point of view a long (medieval philosophical) tradition of an authoritarian conceptual approach to teaching rather than a pragmatic one. Centralisation under Napoleon reinforced this by establishing state norms (beginning with the competitive exams or concours). Basically the pupil is at the bottom of the system, not unlike his teacher. It's like the army - you're taught to obey authority since primary school (but with less brutality than the British system). All learning is codified according to this system. The best French students are brilliant... at copying and reproducing. Other than the elite the masses are less well served. But there is excellent apprenticeship education up to a point. The French can be rigorous and energetic but there is no room for imagination, daydreaming or dialogue. In Britain it tends to be the other way round. The French are basically system builders : engineers of learning, rather than creative thinkers. Teachers are not necessarily leftwing (the rightwing SNALC also went on strike today!). They are idealists who invest a lot in education and have high if perhaps misguided expectations of the state (though no one mentions Sartre or Marx anymore these days).
Freed of the normative system, the French are individually extremely cultivated and nice people.

[Thank you for a illuminating contribution, Paul. You define the French approach very well. And I completely agree with you last sentence. CB]

[azloon]

John --

Thx for a a fair-minded and enlightening post from someone who apparently has 'no axe to grind and has lived in the system. do you think your experience differs from other who may have attended schools in more populous areas, or other areas of france?

Having to 'politic' to get your children into classes with the best teachers is a fact of life as well in u.s public schools.

but though i would say a majority of u.s teachers are democrats (left of center) in poliitical party affiliation, i wouldn't describe many as socialists. I would estimate you could fit all 'real' american socialists into a medium-sized auditorium.

[V]

Concerning left-leaning teachers:
from what I've read (I think in a book by Luc Ferry, former school minister) there is no coincidence most teachers are leftist: it seems they are already thus selected and "indoctrinated" in university; a teacher-to-be will not get his diplomas if he doesn't show solid leftwing inclinations as taught by his university teachers. French teachers here will confirm or deny this.

Another puzzling point is the pretention unions have to decide the education policies of the country.
Instead of getting busy caring for their members, unions pretend to be entitled to defend the "public service" policies.
So even when the population elects a president and a majority with a very clear political program, this program will later have to be negotiated again with the unions and dramatically modified in order to avoid strikes.

Fortunately this is only true for teachers, postmen and transport workers mainly. Imagine what would happen if for instance diplomats went on strike for not agreeing with Foreign Office's policies.

These people need to understand that a country's policies are decided by the democratically-elected leadership, government, parliament and president, not by unions, be they left-leaning.

[nata]

(The school establishment of course says that the OECD's so-called PISA survey is biased against French-style education)

Try to pass PISA survey.......It is not so easy as it seems to be.....Questions and tasks are so confusing that you even do not understand what are you expected to answer.....

[Marina]

Born and brought up in France, near Paris, by English parents, I spent my whole scolarite, up to the BAC (OIB), in French schools and teacher's greves were common things and a bit of a joke (as were the other fonctionnaires greves). At the time we just enjoyed the time off. I enjoyed my education a lot, especially the fact that most subjects had to be studied until premiere at least and that even in the S filiere I had to study history and philosophy for the BAC. This 'encyclopaedic' education is something the French system should be proud of and I think should be encouraged. My biggest problem was with terrible teachers who could simply not be fired. There were maths teachers who literally terrorised the pupils and philosophy teachers who were notorious drunks. I must admit they were in a minority but if you were stuck with them for a year it wasn't fun. But the school had to keep them as they were agrege or had so many 'annees' that they could choose were to teach and our school was a good one.
I voted for Sarkozy (by procuration) and hoped that he would be strong enough to bring about the changes France needs. However, in education, I think his first port of call should not be at the college/lycee level but at university level. I moved to England for university and from what my friends tell me about French universities, Im glad I did. They have no 'moyens' at all. Instead of preparing power point presentations my friend had to write it on a black board! But as soon as you talk about selection or fees even the students blockade the universities! There can be no debate because to mention reform is to call for a 'mobilisation' against it.
I know little about the state of the French economy, except for there being a rather big deficit, but putting money into education and research cannot be money badly spent. And money could be saved by not replacing the many many fonctionnaires who have rather cushy jobs in my opinion.

[John]

@azloon: I wouldn't know for more populated areas, since I spent all my secondary education in that mid-sized town. In big cities it is very hard in the social ghettoes. One of our relatives was a Socialist teacher who was sent to a difficult high school in a famous social ghetto of Toulouse (Le Mirail) inhabited essentially by Arabs. On the first day, she parked her car near the high school. Big mistake! That evening when she left the high school she found out the four tires of her car were gone. Teachers told her you never park your car near the high school, they usually park it 30 minutes walk from the high school to avoid problems. One day a fridge fell in a courtyard in the high school. The high school was built at the bottom of housing estate towers, and apparently one family wanted to get rid of their old fridge and they thought the easiest way was simply to throw it through the window. Within months our Socialist relative switched to the Front National far-right party.

Of course social ghettoes are only small areas. Most areas in big cities are not social ghettoes, so I would imagine high schools in big cities are similar to those I've experienced, with maybe teachers a bit more stressed than in the mid-sized town where I went to school.

Another thing I wanted to say is this: don't forget there also exist private schools (mainly Catholic schools). 20% of high school students in France attend private high schools, and they are becoming more and more popular with parents. In my hometown for example there were four lycées: two were public, and bore the names of a famous left-wing historian and a famous sculptor; two were private Catholic lycées bearing the names of saints. In Toulouse there is a Catholic boarding school for teenagers who are trouble makers. They are kept behind high walls during the entire week, without the right to go out, and monitored by monks. My cousin when he was 15 was sent there and didn't like it at all. My uncle on the other side of my family, who was also a hard head when he was young, was sent by my grand-father to a Jesuit boarding institution near Bordeaux (that was back in the 1950s), where there was extremely harsh discipline, including beating. So as you see, it's not all State schools full of lefties in France.

[sebastien]

V: "there is no coincidence most teachers are leftist: it seems they are already thus selected and "indoctrinated" in university; a teacher-to-be will not get his diplomas if he doesn't show solid leftwing inclinations"

Teaching credentials and posts in France (secondary level and upwards) are obtained through 'concours', anonymous competitive exams at national level, which don't give much scope for demonstrating "leftwing inclinations", except in philosophy, economics and history. The tendency for many teachers to be left-wing certainly isn't limited to France. I suspect the crap pay has as much to do with it as anything else.

[Daniel Strohl]

Dominique,

Your post is really interesting, instructive and unbiased . Through it, I have learned a few important things I was not really aware of.

If a higher proportion of teachers would use their brains and their heart as you do, instead of using their feet to march obediently in silly demonstrations organized by narrow minded unions, everything would be in a much better shape.

Re : PISA

I have "developped" :)) an alternative to PISA; in fact, it is a post PISA test...

I watch rather frequently "Qui veut gagner des millions ?" moderated by the very sympathetic J-P. Foucauld. One may see there through the answers that what we call "culture générale" is not always broadly represented and demonstrated there, at least in fields other than singers & songs, artists and cinema.

Two days ago, a (charming) lady was asked to select the name of the capital of Indonesia, between 4 possibilities : Borneo, Java, Bali and Jakarta. She had to use 2 jokers to get the right answer! BTW, the lady is "professeur des écoles" ...

Of course, the above is an anecdote, from which no conclusion relative to the school system may be drawn.

However, I have on stock two more worrying examples :

- two days ago, I heard Mr. Moindrot (or a similar name), boss of a teachers union (instituteurs?), make a big grammar error (accord de participe). He managed to do this within a very short declaration - may be three sentences.

- this morning, I caught Mr.Aschieri, the very pedantic pope of the Education Nationale unions, committing also a very big grammar error which a 12 year old would not have committed when I was at school 60 years ago :

La ligne rouge à ne pas franchir c'est les conditions d'exercice du droit de grève, et là elle est franchie".

Collé à partir de <http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2008/05/16/01011-20080516FILWWW00412-service-minimum-ligne-rouge-franchie.php

I am wondering if both gentlemen would manage to improve our score at the PISA tests :))

[Dominique]

Paul says about the "french" :

"Basically the pupil is at the bottom of the system, not unlike his teacher. It's like the army - you're taught to obey authority since primary school (but with less brutality than the British system). All learning is codified according to this system."

I am afraid this is very much stereotypes. Since Jospin was education minister in 1989, the child is by law at the "center" of the educational system. Therefore at the top. I believe that this is one of the main problem of the french educational system because the child can no longer be sure of what he is taught : it all depends on him. But knowledge does not. 2+2=4 whatever the kid.

Today's program are written by cognitives psychologist who should work on "how do learn" instead of working on "what to learn". This very switch (knowledge - child) is putting the child on the top. What you describe is educational system before the 30's.

If the teacher was, i you say, at the top of the system, i would have noticed... Gosh! i am at the top? and none told me so?

Unfortunatly today, we have cognitivism and social empathy at the top of our system. Empathy does not work. It often pushes a child to act in order to get this empathy. "Bienveillance" does work ("care giver?" "Benevolence?" in english). But that supposes that adults know what they expect from the child, and that is an other question.

[Dominique]

Daniel Strohl,

Grammar is tricky..don't blame the oral language for not respecting it.

Regarding PISA, this is a real issue. Education is about what you want to teach to your children. PISA is about what some obscur bureaucrats whoknow's where expect from them. Usually, two different people have two different expectations regarding education. I am not sure you would agree with the PISA patterns.

But, this is also the most famous global thermometer there is.

This is always the same old duality : should we be what we want to be? or what other expect us to be?

[V]

Sebastien:
"Teaching credentials and posts in France (secondary level and upwards) are obtained through 'concours'"

I know that, it's the official story. My book was speaking about what happens behind the scenes, before the final exams - namely, if one doesn't appear leftwing, one's teachers will make sure he won't pass. Unfortunately I can't find the place where I've read that.

"I suspect the crap pay has as much to do with it as anything else."

Everybody complains about the wage in France. Average pay in school isn't very far from the general average I guess (and many do private preparations while refusing to do more work at school).
In a documentary I watched last year about the UK teachers were earning more - while doing much more hours.

[rocket]

Dominique

Could you repeat that last post but in English please.

Thank you so much.

[Lily]

Dominique,

You complain about pedagogy that centres on the child and basically asks too much of him instead of concentrating on the transmission of basic knowledge that the child can build upon. From what I have heard about the new programs [that were supposed to get debated, weren’t and will get implemented, given that new textbooks have already been printed] – pedagogy is supposed to go ‘backwards’ in favour of a more conservative, old-fashioned approach.

I have two questions:

1. You ‘must’ follow the program of the “Ministère de l’Education nationale” but do you feel free in the classroom to teach in line with your own convictions? Does anyone really bother WHETHER, in practice, you “centre” your curriculum “on the child”, let him explore and discover on his own OR whether you choose a less creative but maybe more adapted and more efficient way of teaching young children? Does anyone watch over the pedagogy that you apply – as long as you don’t ‘cane’ the kids? Does anyone notice if you put yourself “on top”?

2. What is going on with these programs that are supposed to be reduced to the basics of Maths and French reading, spelling, writing – with few hours left to cover inspiring subjects, i.e. Sciences, History/Geography, the Arts, Foreign Languages, Sports and Music? Is there as much confusion as there appears to be?

[David Powell]

Dominique says "CB says : “ (The school establishment of course says that the OECD's so-called PISA survey is biased against French-style education.)”.

My disagreement with CB : the school establishment is right! Has anyone here tried to read PISA testings and results? Who are they by the way? The only one able to test an educational system is the one who defines the goal of this educational system. What is it’s goal according to PISA? Does anyone know? Growth? Economy? Happiness? Citizenship? Peace?...war?"

Hold on Dominique, does that mean that no body outside that particular education system can test it?

Most countries in the world outside Africa participate which seems to indicate that most countries share a view about what education is for.

I do not want to be personal but I suspect that if the French education system came the top of the Pisa ratings you would be saying it was a pretty good damn system.

Anyway, since this post started, and prompted by your remarks, I have taken the trouble to read the PISA report and it seems to be full of valuable information and observations, even though the UK does not do as well as I would like.

But isn't that what it is about? To establish the best systems for the (very expensive) education of our children?

[Dominique]

Lili,

"From what I have heard about the new programs – pedagogy is supposed to go ‘backwards’ in favour of a more conservative, old-fashioned approach"

--> il all depends on what you call "backwards" or "old fashionned". You could say that may68's students were very creative and smart thanks to the educational system they met at that time! You become creative once you know what is already going on in the world. You don't if no one tells you about the world.

Lili says about the new programs "[that were supposed to get debated, weren’t and will get implemented, given that new textbooks have already been printed]"

--> It is being debated since 40 years. The truth is that if the administration in charge did write the new programs, the new programs would have been...the same as the old ones. This administration is "pedagogically biased", meaning that any minister willing to change something has to bypass it. The result of course is that teachers and unions say that this is not the minister's job. As a french men (therefore spoiled by our education system ;-)), i strongly belive that this is not the teacher's job to define what we should teach our children. This is political as it defines the society we want to live in and the society we want to transmit to our children. I know this will sound "communist", but i believe children do not "belong" to their parents and the entire adult society (the republic) is in charge of transmiting. Programs are therefore a political choice. That is, of course, a very french view...on ne se refait pas!

Lili says : "Does anyone really bother WHETHER, in practice, you “centre” your curriculum “on the child”, let him explore and discover on his own OR whether you choose a less creative but maybe more adapted and more efficient way of teaching young children?"

--> That is the key issue of the system. Teachers must apply programs they often do not understand, or that they interpret the way they want. These programs are a list of "abilities" of the child, more written for psychologist than teachers. And we have complete pedagogic freedom. That means that we can choose to read and write about the "fables de Lafontaine" or on a "shopping list". I make it outrageous and simple, but that gives you an idea. It does not matter because the programs are centered on the child and his cognitive abilities, not on what he can or can not do, neither what he knows or does not know.

More, the issue is to be processed sometimes on a "per child" basis. Some child do behave in a way that freedom and lack of frame does work. Some others get mad when they are not told what to do. Some children are then like "drawn into angoisse". They need frames and rules. All children are in the same classroom and that is difficult to manage. The balance is often tiny and we have everyday children frustrated because the frame is either to strong or to light in some moments of the day. But there is a moment for everything. The rest of the society usually does not see this point and falls into a simple debate : it is all "too tight" or "too free". Reality is of course, as often, inbetween. About creativity, it can raise in a frame. The issue is the frame.

Lili says : "Does anyone watch over the pedagogy that you apply – as long as you don’t ‘cane’ the kids? Does anyone notice if you put yourself “on top”?"

--> in theory, we are watched. Once a ...i don't know. But the programs are complex and can be interpreted. Two different "watchers" (inspecteurs) have two different views of what they mean.More, they have two different views of how it should be implemented. Some like adults who behave like adults (children don't negociate), some prefer to see children making their own mind. These people do not all agree. The teatcher therefore does what he feels he should do.

Lili says : "2. What is going on with these programs that are supposed to be reduced to the basics of Maths and French reading, spelling, writing – with few hours left to cover inspiring subjects, i.e. Sciences, History/Geography, the Arts, Foreign Languages, Sports and Music? Is there as much confusion as there appears to be?"

--> Well, at least, i have a chance to understand the new programs. Even if they are not perfect (what does perfect mean?), i feel like they are better than programs i don't understand. All the debates about "more french versus less history" is biased because it does not mean the same in both pedagogies.

"knowledge construction" : everything is in everything. Children do write, read while they make history. Therefore, you don't know if an hour spent on a text is about "working on french" or "working on history". This very idea is at the basis of everything and that makes the old programs turn into... non-programs. We no longer are able to identify clearly what we should teach to the children. Every teacher has it's own interpretation. That's what they call "liberté pédagogique".

"new programs" : a clear list of things children need to work on. But, the teatcher chooses his own way of doing it. It is less a list of "abilities", more a list of "things to do, things to know". Less dependant on psychology.

I am absolutly convinced that i will not make less history with the new programs. More, i will finally know what i expect from the children.

David Powell says : "Hold on Dominique, does that mean that no body outside that particular education system can test it?"

--> Well, i am absolutly unable to test the chineese education program because i have no idea of what the chineese want to teach their kids. Do you? In germany, every lander (region) makes it's own program. They haver "berlin history" in berlin, but they don't have it in Bayern. That means that what is important in Berlin is not in Bayern. So, what does PISA says? Is Berlin history important? Are children of Bayern in a "bad" education system because they don't learn it?

Rocket : "Could you repeat that last post but in English please"
Was that making fool of my english?

[Laurel Zuckerman]

"But as the father of two teenagers in the system, I can see the drawbacks. They spring from uninspiring, old-fashioned teaching from negative-thinking staff."

There is a direct link between the way France selects and trains its teachers and their pedagogical shortcomings in the classroom. France uses the concours, a competitive exam system initiated by Louis XV in 1766. Last year I wrote a book inspired by my surreal experiences in the agrégation d’anglais, France’s highest concours for English teachers in collèges and lycées (see The Times article on "Sorbonne Confidential" at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article1940313.ece )
In the agrégation d'anglais, I observed three major obstacles to quality teaching: content, form and perverse structural incentives against continuing education.
Content: less than 50% of the agrégation d’anglais was in English (the written exam began with a dissertation IN FRENCH).
Form: the concours is intensely competitive and critical, with a failure rate of 90% considered normal.
Structurally, immense resources are invested in preparing for, administering and evaluating the competitive exams, which diverts scarce national resources away from teacher training. And, even worse, the financial incentive for passing CAPES and especially the agrégation incites individual teachers to invest in improving their concours skills instead of their teaching skills.
Teachers are like anybody else and tend to replicate their experience. Excessive use of French, too much criticism which inhibits students, and lack of continuing education were three issues that the 2002 European Evaluation identified as problematic in French classrooms. These pedagogical weaknesses correspond exactly to the demands of the concours on teacher candidates.

For English teachers, I came to the conclusion that the concours system of recruitment is the single biggest systemic obstacle to teacher training in France. In sanctifying the concours, Education Nationale sabotages its own goals.

[John Gregory Flinn]

"The French can be rigorous and energetic but there is no room for imagination, daydreaming or dialogue. In Britain it tends to be the other way round."

I hesitate to comment on PAUL's post after CB's postscript.... but here goes.

I've heard all that tosh before.
About the two classrooms; one with French pupils and the other with English. The former is quiet and studious, the latter is noisy.
Why?
Because the English are busy "discussing, inventing and imagining" - all interactive processes and necessarily noisy.
The french are quietly learning by rote etc!

I'm no expert on the French education system, but comparing its results, i.e., French culture and civilization with Britain's, (or anyone else's for that matter) I find it difficult to believe that their schools' education system (which is not necessarity the same as "teaching") did not, and does not encourage a decent measure of 'imagination, day-dreaming, dialogue or creativity'!

Whereas in England that divisive socialist Tony Crosland killed all that when he introduced the state comprehensive.

I agree with your final sentence - although it is ambiguous!

[Daniel Strohl]

Dominique,

"Was that making fool of my english?"

Honestly, Dominique, your English has vastly improved and is perfectly understandable and clear. But Rocket is making fool of everything French, as usual :)) - as I pointed out several months ago, he is "un affreux Jojo" - LOL (along with a few others here ...).

But let's be serious again : you said (regarding my critics of Mr.Aschieri's "grammaire") "Grammar is tricky..don't blame the oral language for not respecting it."

I know that grammar is tricky; I presume that Mr.Aschieri is professeur agrégé (de lettres?) - therefore, he should be able to formulate orally a sentence in good French. He most probably is able to do this, mais il veut sans doute "faire peuple", pour se mettre au niveau de certains de ses mandants. Personnellement, ça ne m'amuse pas!

PS : Dominique, I understand what you said about PISA, i.e that it is not a perfect "thermometer". Nevertheless, this thermometer was designed by intelligent people. And the first goal of intelligent people designing a measuring instrument
is to render it "fidèle" (dans le sens technique, par ex. la fidélité d'une balance).

This is most probably the case. May be 5 years ago, French 15 year old pupils were ranked as 14 to 17.th in the PISA tests. Now, if I believe Charles (and I do believe him), they are 32.nd ! (and one has to bring this in relation with the expenditures per capita, and not with some metaphysical considerations).

In the first PISA survey I heard about (through Der Spiegel), French pupils scored between the 14.th and 17.th rank - the Germans were even worse. This provoked a big shock in Germany - in France, almost nobody did lift an eyelid at that time, for various reasons, including self censorship and fear of the unions.

Il était grand temps d'avoir le courage politique de réagir et de donner un coup de pied dans la fourmilière.

[Maggie]

Wow! Laurel Zuckerman, thanks for this! I shall buy your book!

This may give us a new perspective on the PISA results as well!

[dot king]

"Content: less than 50% of the agrégation d’anglais was in English (the written exam began with a dissertation IN FRENCH)."
Laurel Zuckerman

Which explains why so many English teachers speak rather poor English; even if grammatically correct, the pronunciation is often strange to say the least; and from that we have an explanation as to why French kids don't learn English well.
This said, the same could be said of many a French teacher in the UK where there is no concours system. I took over 2 top-stream, O and A level French classes from a teacher who was considered highly competent and had moved on to being a deputy head (kicked upstairs possibly, Daniel :)).
These classes formed lovely straight lines outside the classroom (fear was the method she favoured), they stood until told to sit, they passed their lessons in silence doing written exercises, endlessly repeating from a given example.
When I took over, I started with simple set-piece conversation (as you do) and was unable to get any answer at all to questions such as "comment t'appelles-tu?" "quel âge as-tu?" "où habites-tu". On the first day the head came in and saw these silences (he couldn't hear them, of course), sensed their discomfiture - and mine(!) and said he thought I was asking too much of them. They were equivalent 4ème and just a little over one year from O levels. The other group, A level, was made up of 3 motivated but frustratingly mute girls who had got that far without ever having to speak French.
Every member of each group had exercise books full of neat, correct exercises, full of "10/10 très bien" "8/10 bien" etc.
They could do grammar exercises and look like la crème de la crème, but they couldn't say a single ordinary sentence. Not even a oui or a non did I get. If I remember correctly, the oral was worth only 30% of the marks, so they could all have passed the exam (not the A levels - they were completely lost) and kept my ex-colleague looking good.

I have at present 2 very clever English girls in 5ème whose French work is nearly all grammar-based (in a francophone school), their vocabulary is still quite limited, but they have picked up the grammar and retained the rules I've taught them, and, although it seems ridiculous, they can dissect and analyse a fairly complex sentence without necessarily knowing what any of it means.
It'll get them through the exam, but with any luck they'll have padded out their vocabulary by then and will also be able to understand it.
The fact of being able to analyse sentences is helping them advance in rédaction faster than anyone would have thought at the beginning of the year. Un grand OUF!
Thanks for your post Laurel, it's very interesting to have a different educational ball to bat around. : )

[Pierre Bernardi]

Within a single framework the french education system is designed to structure an elite while catering to the needs of the majority. In response to the needs of the modern economy, selection is largely focused on mathematics, present within the engineering and business school syllabi while largely or totally absent from politics (sciences po, loosely PPE) and administration (ENA). One may improve one's ability to frame a dissertation throughout one's lifetime, but once algebra are finished with, that's it. What remains is the ability to structure thought, approach problems logically and articulate coherent solutions. The greatest weakness of the French education system is the approach to languages - one shared by the English system. There is a cultural bias inherited from the days of empire, more absent in the neutral societies of the Netherlands and the north. But Scandinavia leans towards Britain; there is more to learnt, in my opinion, from the study of Russia.

[Jean-François]

No doubt the 'concours' system has little to do with the dynamics of teaching. But we could also take into account who is likely to take these competitive exams in France and go into teaching here.

The best French students do their best to avoid universities in general and the ones leading mostly to teaching careers (humanities and sciences)in particular. The best brains tend to go to the 'Grandes Ecoles' or even to shorter two-year courses that are more job-oriented.

University faculty members, who still lean heavily to the left in their majority - with the exception of law and medical studies, have a field day pushing their ideas to such an audience.

Long gone are the days when bright students would willingly go into teaching out of idealism.

[Terry]

"I know that some regulars here will accuse me of simplifying and resorting to conservative stereotypes."

You couldnt be more wrong, Charles. Im a regular here. I dont think you're oversimplying the matter or showing conservative bias at all. In fact, I agree with you unreservedly.

I know nothing about the French curriculum. And I would be interested to for some of the French parents here to tell us about the french curriculum.

A very close friend of mine in the US educational field called me and told he was writing an essay to be published on the goal of an education. He called me up to ask me whether the goal should be either to 1) turn out a good citizen OR 2) turn out a good employee or professional for industry. I was rather appalled by the lack of thought exhibited by my friend who's job was to determine curriculums. In my opinion, the purpose of an education is to train an individual to use his mind to discover his own abilities and talents. It's not to serve society or some corporation. It's to serve oneself. Personally, I think the english style of school is probably the best. It involves a heavy amount of classical reading and writing. Our private schools follow that system. Unfortunately, our public schools tend to teach to mindless multiple choice tests with the expected result of producing automatons.

Whatever we do. Most of us spend much of the day solving problems in some form (I actually spend most of my day causing problems). A proper education lays the foundation for this.

[Lily]

Dominique,

Thank you. I agree that there are advantages to « encyclopaedic » learning, as someone called it above, especially in Primary Education.

Programs conflicting with pedagogy lead to confusion. One shouldn’t be in the way of the other. A program that will describe or list the abilities children should acquire sets a goal for teachers. You seem to criticise the nature of these unspecific abilities that don’t put an emphasis on knowledge: What do children need to know in order to be able to do this and that?

You prefer the new programs because they are more specific on knowledge than on vague abilities that need to be personally interpreted and taught, thus causing confusion among the staff.

Is it right that instruction in History doesn’t get effectively reduced but integrated in the French curriculum? Textbooks should integrate all required knowledge in both areas and you should be able to rely on them/their interpretation of government programs, non?

It looks as if the main problem consisted in communicating a program to teachers so that they would accept it and understand it and know what to do with it.

----

I had come across a letter to Darcos a few weeks ago concerning the new programs, on “Rue 89” – and I cannot find it anymore. A teacher complained because Darcos had promised to have the program debated (as has been done for 40 years, according to you :)) … This promise had apparently been an easy method to satisfy “the masses”. The new programs will be implemented.
You say that the new programs don’t really differ from the previous ones, only in that they are more specific on knowledge and less concerned with psychology, abilities, etc. This sounds reasonable.

Teachers should have studied pedagogy ;) to know about psychology and methods to teach abilities; that would make these notions in programs redundant.

----

The PISA study does of course not cover local geography but concentrates on ‘universal’ knowledge – i.e. maths and reading/writing skills in the mother tongue (from what I know).

[Dominique]

JG Flinn,

"About the two classrooms; one with French pupils and the other with English. The former is quiet and studious, the latter is noisy.
Why?
Because the English are busy "discussing, inventing and imagining" - all interactive processes and necessarily noisy.
The french are quietly learning by rote etc!"

Well, i don't know where this idea comes from. Those i met who had the opportunity to go in both (london & paris) saw the very opposite : british kids, in uniform, are calm and listen. They do the exercices they are told. They hardly discuss what they are asked. The french ones, not in uniform, are discussing (negociating?) every single word of the teacher. They often question the very principle doing an exercice. They are loud and hardly stay 20 minutes working in a row. Some say they are taught to question every thing, as a principle. Sometimes, they want to vote in order to determine the right answer (i saw it my self!)

Amazing.

[Daniel Strohl]

Jean-François,

"University faculty members, who still lean heavily to the left in their majority"

A few of them even lean very heavily to the extreme-left! I discovered this a few days ago in Le Monde, where there was an article written by two university professors explaining doctement que le Parti Socialiste fait fausse route en tentant de s'allier avec le centre comme l'ont fait les Italiens et qu'il faut au contraire mettre la barre à gauche toute (la formule est de moi ... - vieux réflexe d'ancien marin).

Ces deux gentlemen sont membres de la LCR ou de Luttte Ouvrière - je confonds toujours les deux. Pour moi, c'est blanc bonnet ou bonnet blanc :))

PS : "have a field day pushing their ideas to such an audience" - any connection with our PISA ranking ? :))

[David Powell]

Dominique writes:-

Well, i am absolutly unable to test the chineese education program because i have no idea of what the chineese want to teach their kids. Do you? In germany, every lander (region) makes it's own program. They haver "berlin history" in berlin, but they don't have it in Bayern. That means that what is important in Berlin is not in Bayern. So, what does PISA says? Is Berlin history important? Are children of Bayern in a "bad" education system because they don't learn it?

Well, Dominique you have forced me into researching more thoroughly PISA. Perhaps we all ought to before arguing about it.

It makes no attempt to judge the aims and success even of different education systems.

What it does do is set up a series of highly defined tests on closely defined groups of pupils across the world to compare reading abilities, mathematical abilities and scientific understanding.

Now there are critics of its methodology, as one might expect.

Here is a link to its basis and systems http://www.acspri.org.au/conference2006//proceedings/streams/acspri_3_dec06.pdf
Here is a link to its website:-http://www.oecd.org/document/24/0,3343,en_32252351_32235731_38378840_1_1_1_1,00.html

And here is a criticism of its methodology:-http://www.reading.org/downloads/resources/pisa.pdf

The point is though, that you criticize PISA for something it is NOT trying to do.

And reading the other sites on its effects the shock of finding their schools were not up to the levels they believed made Germany carry out
a reassessment and, presumably, an upgrading of their schooling methods.

It doesn't hurt you know, to see what other people are doing and learning from them.

By the way, I live in France and I really enjoy your posts on so many topics. Thank you.

[Lily]

"the goal should be either to 1) turn out a good citizen OR 2) turn out a good employee or professional for industry." (Terry paraphrasing his friend)

> Conclusion: Good employees or professionals in industry are unfit as citizens OR good citizens don't excel as employees/professionals...

[Pierre Bernardi]

In the French system, for a typical terminale high school pupil (=upper 6th),
- maths, history and philosophy teach him to think
- geography and biology teach him about his surroundings (I sometimes wonder if I didn't learn too much about Russian agriculture, but there you go)
- physics and chemistry lay foundations for a career (taken up by a small percentage)
- languages prepare him for globalisation (even before globalisation existed)
- French, abandoned the previous year, prepares him to integrate into society (the immigration thing has been going on in France for a few centuries now, see Alphonse Daudet's problems mixing with people from the Cévennes, in 1871, published in the Daniel Pennac's excellent "Chagrin d'Ecole")

[V]

Here's a post (from another blog) of a French university teacher concerning French highschool. It's in French - one can always try
http://translate.google.fr/translate_t?hl=fr
to have it in English.

"Sur un même sujet de Licence , à 10 ans d' intervalle , avec le même cours ( le mien) et les mêmes travaux dirigés par des Maitres de Conférences qui avaient acceptés de faire l' expérience , j' ai trouvé 2,5 points sur 20 de baisse de moyenne générale.

Ce qui ne veut pas dire que les étudiants soient moins intelligents, mais surtout très mal formatés par le Lycée, incapables de se concentrer ( impossible de faire un cours de 2 heures sans pause alors qu' on le faisait avant ), et rechignant à l' étude abstraite pourtant socle de la technologie de haut niveau.
Il faut progressivement les recadrer et leur redonner le gout de l' effort et sens de la volonté et de la responsabilité ; cela depuis le DEUG qui sert de sas de sélection jusqu' à la maitrise , et les choses s' améliorent progressivement.
Rien n' est perdu ,...la qualité est là ...MAIS...il faut remuscler le ventre mou que représente le Lycée."

[Guillaume]

"Form: the concours is intensely competitive and critical, with a failure rate of 90% considered normal."

Yes, l'agrégation d'anglais is a competitive exam which is very open. Really VERY.
In that case you've got a success rate which turns around 10% which is, in France at those times, HUGE. Simply HUGE.
Like a lot of ppl in France I went through competitive exam where the success rate scales around 2 or 3%. It gives a failure rate of 97 or 98%. It's totally nonsense!!!

Moreover, I do not agree with your blame on the french place in the Agrégation d'Anglais. In my point of view, it is very important to be as fluent in french as in english to be able to teach the last. How could you perform well in translation from english to french if your level in french is poor?

Finally, I think that is a pity that in France some GTP program does not exist, you might make a good Foreign language assistant :)

[Dominique]

David POWELL,

"The point is though, that you criticize PISA for something it is NOT trying to do."

I understand your point. I am not trying to say that PISA is WILLING to set education standards. But I say it DOES as a result of their studies. They stress on some points, not on other ones. Why? They therefore set education standards by measuring abilities that are in some education systems, that are not in some others.

What is the legitimacy of PISA? who are they? What makes you believe they know what is a good and a bad education? Their only legitimacy is provided by the fact that the press talks about them.

I don't have problems looking at other countries education system, and i know plenty of things that are running much better in other countries. But PISA? are they running an education system somewhere? can we test the children educated by PISA? are they good citizens at the end? do they speak foreign languages? what is a foreign language for PISA? anything but english? do they know anything about laguage specificities? Does PISA take into account the fact that in coutries of immigration (like France), language is an different issue than in the wonderfull world of PISA (Korea, Finland...) where immigration is nul and ethnicity homogeneous? Does PISA therefore pushes the idea that uniform ethnic education is better than diversity? should we therefore implement this uniformity?

What i am trying to say is that measuring without trying is perverse : critics from those who don't even try always leads to simple and simplistic ideas.

Lili,

You are twisting Terry's mind,

[Terry]

Lilly:

"Conclusion: Good employees or professionals in industry are unfit as citizens OR good citizens don't excel as mployees/professionals..."

As Dominique said, I didnt agree with that sentiment expressed by my friend. It was rather absent minded on a few levels. The two are not mutually exclusive. The part that bothered me was the notion that the purpose of a education to crank out a better citizen or worker. It is the notion that an individual's role is to serve other people. My opinion is that the purpose of the education is to serve that individual.

Dominique: Maybe you have some insight into the French reasoning into what is the purpose of an eductation.

[Dominique]

Success rates are not an issue. They only prove that anybody can try. The best succeed. A success rate of 95% would only show that selection took place before, forbiddening people from taking their chances.

The concours is the most democratic way of recruting.

[Dominique]

Terry,

The very purpose of the french education system for primary school lies in the first sentence of the national programs :

"En ce début de XXIe siècle, l'école primaire doit rester fidèle à la grande inspiration de l'école républicaine : offrir à tous les enfants des chances égales et une intégration réussie dans la société française."

" At the beginning of XXIth century, the elementary school has to remain faithful to the big inspiration of the republican school: offer to all the children equal chances and a successfull integration in the French society "

[Paul]

Just a second quick intervention in this exciting debate, trying to avoid those terrible generalities and spark off new blazes.
A first point must be the continuity of the French mind set which lies behind the educational system and of which the crowning achievements are the state competitive exams, and of which Mai 1968 was an extreme example. The key to knowledge is the jargon, words by which a small intellectual group wields power and manage the education and university systems. Mai 1968 is about much about words and pseudo theories as politics, a sort of genetic mutation of French normality.
As for pupil centred -education it is more a theory than a reality in my view. It may be that the idea of creative education is oversold even in Britain, British education is probably more sentimental and moralising, and normative in its hypocritical British way!
As I see it the problem nowdays in France is the children of 'massification', the aspiring class of working class parents who envy and detest the declining class of middle class and teachers. Their ethic is not work but consumption. Certificates and degrees must be available to all. Yet they also envy the guaranteed state jobs and struggle in the competitive exams. Finally watch the coming up of the new ambitious generations of emigrant children, desperate for social aspiration and a share of power.
(By the way I received a terrible Oxford education forty years ago. Do the students there still wear those silly medieval gowns with mock sleeves?)

[David Powell]

Dominique says 'I understand your point. I am not trying to say that PISA is WILLING to set education standards. But I say it DOES as a result of their studies. They stress on some points, not on other ones. Why? They therefore set education standards by measuring abilities that are in some education systems, that are not in some others.

What is the legitimacy of PISA? who are they? What makes you believe they know what is a good and a bad education? Their only legitimacy is provided by the fact that the press talks about them. '

I suppose that that there is truth in what you say about PISA does set standards of a sort by the very fact of issuing their results.

However, what they are measuring are surely the fundamentals; reading, mathematics and the understanding of science. If an education system is not teaching these to its children, or not teaching them well, then it needs to look at its methods.

As regards the legitimacy of PISA it was set up by the governments of the OECD countries who, each providing their own teaching experts decided to test what was a consensual view of basic education standards. Not a bad thing surely?

It is fair to point out that countries with a high level of immigration will have more problems than those with a highly homogeneous population, but the fact that problems are there, and that those problems give (maybe?) a country like Finland a higher score than say, the U.K. or France is neither here nor there. Problems and the effects of problems have to be recognized and measured before the appropriate action can be taken

Finally, nowhere on all the (VAST) PISA documentation which I have read online, (this discussion with you is making me cross eyed) do PISA suggest that uniform education is good, desirable or what ever. What they do is measure, on an agreed basis in as scientific a way as possible how the children of the world perform.

And I see no harm in that, merely a useful tool, you know like we all use centimetres, which have an agreed length?

[Daniel Strohl]

David,

"you know like we all use centimetres, which have an agreed length?"

Yes, but some natives in overseas or over-channel countries still use inches :))

More seriously : I agree, PISA is an useful measuring tool. And as you said, "problems and the effects of problems have to be recognized and measured before the appropriate action can be taken".

In France, the problem is subjectively known since a long time; it has objectively been measured on a large scale with the first PISA survey may be 5 years ago . But nobody bothered (officially) and nothing serious was made up to may be a few months ago. Throwing the thermometer away as it has been done too long a time has of course not cured the fever ...

[Maggie]

"I do not agree with your blame on the french place in the Agrégation d'Anglais. In my point of view, it is very important to be as fluent in french as in english to be able to teach the last. How could you perform well in translation from english to french if your level in french is poor?" (Guillaume)

I agree with you, Guillaume. Laurel Zuckerman said that for the English concours she was required to write a dissertation in French. This is a bit much, but just in case you didn't check the link, it was the TOPIC of the dissertation that was totally unacceptable: "The meaning of time and the time of meaning".

"The meaning of time and the time of meaning"!!! This should be a joke! (But it isn't.)

Yes, the English teachers should be able to communicate in French, but they don't need to be bloody philosophers!!

If this is what they're looking for in teachers of English, then no wonder French students are some of the worst in Europe.

And the other thing was that they were required to discuss poems by Robert Burns. Robert Burns' poems are written in a Scottish dialect that even most anglophones cannot understand.

This is ridiculous. This is going too far.

[John Gregory Flinn]

DOMINIQUE,

Yes, I agree with your obsevations about the "two classrooms".
Perhaps it was'nt clear, but that paragraph was meant as a ironic side-swipe at PAUL's somewhat presumptive sterotypes. It came from an English view of French education I heard when I was in teacher-training.

[Maggie]

PS Another point concerning the requirement to write a dissertation in French in the Agrégation d'Anglais concours:

Most of the people taking this test are French and it would be more insightful for them to be required to write a dissertation in English.

For the odd anglophone taking the test, like Laurel Zuckerman, the requirement to write a dissertation in French comes in handy to check their level of French.

But the exam was not designed for anglophones, it was designed mainly for French citizens, so putting aside the ridiculousness of the topic ("The Meaning of Time and the Time of Meaning"), the fact that it is considered more important to test teachers of English on their competence in French than on their competence English shows that the quality of Englsih teaching in the schools is not the first priority of the people who prepare the exam.

A bit like the Canadian joke about the lifeguard:

"Lifeguard! Life guard! That man is drowing! Save him!"

"But I don't know how to swim!!"

"You don't know how to swim?? Then how did you get this job?"

"I'm bilingual."

[dot king]

"but they don't need to be bloody philosophers!!" (Maggie)

MAGGIE??? : )

[azloon]

after reading this blog string, it's no goddam wonder that the arrogant ... waiter in the chalet restaurant at courchevel in 1969 could not, or would not, deign to understand me when i repeatedly asked in french for a glass of water.

perhaps if i had known the 'time of meaning' we could have established common ground.

i think 'deranged' is the word i'd apply to someone who seriously contemplated 'the time of meaning."

a similarly inclined american would likely be found in a homeless shelter, or living in a cardboard box over a heating grate.

[dot king]

Years ago (about 30?) there was a pilot scheme in some English junior schools to begin French teaching.
The method to be used was "immersion totale" meaning that the childrren following the scheme, who were all children who had progressed rapidly through the school and would be spending an extra year in the top class (ie the clever ones), were spoken to in French for the whole day, received all their lessons in French. In other words they repeated what they already had done, but this time in French, so they had "hooks on which to hang their new learning" (as went the jargon at the time) in this case, French language.
By the end of the year the children were pretty much fluent in spoken French - important to know that they did no extensive written work. The stated aim of the scheme was to promote spoken fluency.
They went on to secondary schools, not, as you might expect, with an advantage, but with a disadvantage, because from then on, all the work was grammar and sentence-based.
As were the exams.
An excellent scheme, which as so often happens, wasn't thought through to any logical conclusion. You teach spoken French, it's a break-through because all the kids benefit from it and learn to speak French, but you leave the exam as it has been for eons, dry, written, grammatical and merciless, and they fail.
So typical.
All that ever happens in education is that people come along and tinker about at the surface. Nothing is ever taken up, followed, or adjusted to open up the way for real reform.

[azloon]

Dot, the spoken french program you describe would have been considered a rousing success in the u.s.(and in he rest of the world as well, i could safely conjecture). i mean, after all students who couldn't speak a word of french are now fluent?

(these students would need to be warned. however, that if they aspire to teach french in france, they should start giving some thought to 'the time of meaning,' and perhaps to what the meaning of 'is' is.)

most spanish speakers in arizona -- anglos, hispanics and recent immigrants alike, probably wouldn't be able to diagram a spanish sentence with a gun to their head. and there are, as far as i know, virtually no negative consequences of this perceived deficiency.

that the french fluency program in the UK was deemed such a failure tells us a lot about something. and i think that something is more about the burden placed on english teachers in france than about non-french and their 'fluency' -- or whatever you want to call being able to speak a foreign language. that's obviously not what the french call fluency.

[Maggie]

Dot, Azloon,

There are all kinds of French immersion programs in Canada. Three of my nephews have done French immersion, starting in kindergarten or grade 1, I think, and speak good French.

The pilot scheme Dot talks about seems a little strange in that they only did oral French. You would think in a school classroom, over a whole year, there would be a certain amount of reading and writing. Did they have no French books at ALL?

Since they already knew how to read and write in English, and were fluent in oral French, and were "the clever ones", it seems strange that they would be at a disadvantage when they got to secondary school where French grammar was introduced. If grammar was used in the exam, it surely must have been taught during the year.

I've heard that in British schools there is no grammar taught at all, not even terms like 'noun', 'verb' and 'adjective'. Is this true? This certainly isn't a very good preparation for students who might later want to learn a foreign language.

Here's some malgache:

Mividiana akanjo ise androany.

Mividiana kirano ianareo rehampitso.

I think even Azloon would admit that a good starting point is knowing that "mividiana' is the verb.

When we lived in Madagascar, I learned a bit of Malgache, and the first thing I did in the lesson book was circle the verbs in red, the nouns in blue, and the adjectives in yellow.

It helps, Azloon! I swear it, it helps!

[azloon]

Malgache, Maggie

in my next life

(and french too, i fear)

[dot king]

Maggie, the pilot scheme I wrote about didn't last very long. They used only children who were going to repeat their last year of junior school. It's a long time ago, but I have the feeling that the powers-that-were only used one class in one school. That stupid.
The thinking at the time was that children could learn a language by immersion, in the same way that a baby learns its mother tongue by listening and understanding context (nothing wrong with the idea at all, but it needed proper follow-up). That was all that was expected of the children who took part in the scheme.
When they got to secondary school, they were then put into classes where the other children were absolute beginners, so there was a huge gap between what they already knew and what they had to learn, even if they spoke fluent French, it bore no resemblance to the traditional French courses for teaching French from the beginning as a second language. (Very much the same experience that English kids have in E(SL) lessons in a French school - they don't recognise their own language because it has been adapted or reduced to fit the learning base.)

As the children came into secondary schools from different junior schools, of which most hadn't taken part in the pilot scheme, no provision for the pilot scheme children's level of ability was made. The scheme was abandoned (of course - it had failure built in), but it did have an effect on French teaching at the time.
That particular scheme was run whilst I was a student, the school in which I had my first teaching post used a course called "En Avant" which for the first year, was intended for oral learning only, with figurines and drawings as starting points, but no reading, no writing.
It's my belief, however, that once a person is literate at whatever level, when they hear a word, they also have an instinctve need to see what it looks like, so I was not happy with the course as it stood. I therefore wrote my own course with an invented French family to reinforce every new grammar point, and these I used at the end of the spoken exercises.
Even the kids who weren't very good at French could cope with some of it, as I had "stock" sentences that I used in every story and they all ended with the dog snoring in his basket, so I could ask the weakest student(s) these sentences and give them some sense of taking part and getting something right.
I don't know what it was that worked best, but at the end of the first year the whole class could hold a simple conversation without any difficulty and the best could draw on what they'd learned and vary their usage.

And I managed to do a bit of subversion whilst I was at it - in my French course Papa was always in the kitchen with Pierre, Maman was learning menuiserie and Françoise was playing football in the garden.

Taboos destroyed While U Wate!!
; }

[Daniel Strohl]

Maggie,

Re : Malgache

I remember (back to 1960!) a Malgache expression : tsi mich - il n'y en a pas. Is this correct or is my memory wrong ? (this happens:)). There are of course several dialects.

I made calls in Tamatave, Fort Dauphin, Tuléar, Majunga, but had never the opportunity to visit the capital.

[azloon]

Dot --

you may have been in france too long.

fluent is fluent, mais non?. if not, another word is in order (e.g. 'thinks they're fluent' or 'sort of fluent')

anglo-saxon world -- a rose is a rose is a rose.

france -- all pigs are equal except some pigs are more equal than others.

fluency defined: 'having facility in a language, effortless, polished, flowing smoothly and easily, graceful.'

i guess it makes sense in a perverse way that this isn't good enough for the french.

an arm isn't enough. they want a leg too.

[dot king]

"Dot --

you may have been in france too long." (Azloon)

You could be right if it's an explanation why I don't understand any of that post or what you're referring to - please quote me if you aren't referring to "pretty much fluent".
If that's what you refer to then, Sir, you are being picky!
What I mean by "pretty much fluent" is that they could speak with ease on the subjects they'd been taught in French and other daily-type variations of phatic communication. One can't expect an 11-year-old to be fully fluent after one year of school-based tuition, ie where they went home each day to English-only-speaking families.
The scheme itself wasn't a failure, the failure lay in the lack of follow-up provision and the refusal to look at new values in modern language teaching and examining.

- If that's what you're referring to, of course. -

- If not, well ????? please. - ?

PS a rose is a rose is a flower, is a climber, is a trailer, is a briar, is a hybrid, is wild, is a scented variety, a new variety, is a plant, is a bush, is a standard, is etc . . .

Let's not close our minds to roses and all they conjure . . . . :-)

And have you taken into account that the scheme I describe took place in England? It has nothing to do with France or the French - at least in the sense that they can't be criticised for it.
Sorry, you've lost me there. Can't follow (or even see) your train of thought on this one.

[azloon]

Dot --

you may be so surrounded by trees that you can't see the forest.

if other countries applied the fluency standards of the french (yes your comments ARE about the french even if you don't acknowledge it), they likely would be experiencing social gridlock similar to france's.

foreign students in the u.s achieve an english fluency level equivalent to, perhaps a little above, the one you speak of in those 11-year-old students, and still manage to get degrees in computer engineering, business administration and other highly quantitative areas. they then stay on to contribute to our economic productivity, or return home to do the same there. and i suspect the same is true in at least several other english-speaking countries.

it appears that the french opted for killing religion, installing laicte as the national credo, then adopting their language and their food as objects of reverence.

[qwerty]

Dot, when you're ten or eleven you just soak up a new language. I came to France at 10 not speaking French, did a trimestre at the English school of Paris, a few private lessons during the summer, then total immersion in a French school. The first dictation we did in sixième, I got the best mark in the whole class (granted - I'd had the same dictée during my summer tuition!) and soon pretty much out-performed the rest of the class in math in particular.

(My peak period. From then on it's been pretty much downhill: I got lazy).

[dot king]

"Dot, when you're ten or eleven you just soak up a new language"
QWERTY

Well, of course, that was the whole point of the pilot scheme in the first place.
In your case you learned French whilst living in France and using it as one of your main means of communication and it was your learning base language.
That's quite a different "immersion" situation than the kids in the UK pilot scheme who, once outside the classroom, were hearing (and seeing in written language) only English.
The problem thereafter came with the clash of learning/evaluation methods/philosophies.
I don't know how this becomes an anti-French topic (Azloon) all of it took place a long time ago and entirely in the UK.
'Twas but an anecdote of how in education all you get is tinkering about at one level without taking things to any kind of logical conclusion.
The scheme itself was highly successful in that it enabled a small group of children to perform well in spoken French, but no-one thought that when they arrived in secondary school the whole approach would be different and they would be in a minority - and would be with teachers who weren't acquainted with the method - and who wouldn't have the time or facilities to use it - for which they would have to create separate groups or some other impossible restructuring.
As I said, I was a student at the time, so I had thoughts about it as a future teacher of French in the UK.
PS Azloon, a rose is a metaphor and is like a simile :)
And I still haven't grasped what it is that I haven't grasped about it being about France and the French - unless it's because they invaded us in 1066, Guillaume le Conquérant and all that. :)

[sebastien]

"that the french fluency program in the UK was deemed such a failure tells us a lot about something. and i think that something is more about the burden placed on english teachers in france than about non-french and their 'fluency' -- or whatever you want to call being able to speak a foreign language. that's obviously not what the french call fluency." (Azloon)
What on earth does that mean? What on earth does a UK pilot scheme for teaching French to small kids, limited to a UK school with UK students who subsequently went on to secondary school in the UK, have to do with "the burden placed on English teachers in France"?