Paris makes a point with Olympic fiasco

The Olympic flame's day in Paris was a mess. I spent a few hours in the midst of yesterday's demonstrations, beginning with the sinister start below the Eiffel tower under the guard of hundreds of police and Chinese security.

Yet, despite the débâcle which ended with the Chinese rushing the flame out of town on a bus, it is impossible not to detect a little satisfaction in the air. The relay was a chaotic fiasco, marred by jeering crowds and scuffles with the militant pro-Tibetans. The torch-bearers, mainly French former champions, had a miserable time between hostile crowds and the strong-arm tactics of their Chinese handlers. President Sarkozy's government had reason to be embarrassed. But there is a feeling today that, even if it was futile, France at least made a gesture by venting its discontent over the Beijing games and human rights. I say France because the demonstrators enjoyed quite broad support. France prides itself on being "the home of human rights" and it likes a bit of rebellion and creative disorder in the name of a cause. The Beijing torch relay from the Eiffel tower down the Champs Elysées and on to Notre Dame cathedral offered the right moment and symbols. By the end of the afternoon yesterday, the demonstrations had become a festive occasion, joined by teenagers and office-workers.

Laurent Joffrin, Editor of Libération, was for once happy this morning. "Paris rediscovered its sense of revolt for the occasion. It took it upon itself to remind the world that hypocrisy has a limit," he wrote. "The Olympic flame has turned into a shameful candle-end."

Naturally the leftwing world was fully behind the la manif. Mayor Bertrand Delanoe, a Socialist, hung a rights banner across the front of the City Hall. Green councillors added a more aggressive one so the Chinese cancelled the ceremony there and the torch convoy sped past the Mayor without stopping. He shrugged and said: "The cohabitation of the Olympics and human rights disturbs them. That's their problem. We were ready to receive them but not to sacrifice our principles."

But there was also quiet support from President Sarkozy's conservative political camp. Half a dozen members of parliament for his Union for a Popular Movement joined a protest by mainly leftwing legislators outside the National Assembly. The organisers ordered the convoy to cancel a stop there.

On one level, the chaotic day made a mockery of the crowd control skills of the well equipped French police. They had said that the torch would be protected by an inviolable 200-metre long "security bubble". This burst within minutes. In the thick of it, however, I got the impression that they were not trying very hard. There were a few punch-ups but little of the brute force usually employed by the CRS riot police. Most of them were not wearing helmets and body armour. The feeling was confirmed this morning by Michèle Alliot-Marie, the Interior Minister, who is national police chief.

She essentially blamed the Chinese embassy for the mess. They had controlled the day's events and the police had been there to help keep order for them. "We had to balance this with the right of people to demonstrate," she said on Europe 1 radio.

Sarkozy watched events on television as the torch ran past the Elysée Palace. His people hope that the public excitement will cool because there is not much that they can do to satisfy public discontent over China. Sarko is maintaining his threat to stay away from the opening ceremony in Beijing in August but few imagine him doing so.

[Headline: China: the slap in the face]

Comments

[Don S]

"It took it upon itself to remind the world that hypocrisy has a limit. The Olympic flame has turned into a shameful candle-end."

Amazing, absolutely amazing. This reminds me of why it is impossible not to love the French, at least in their best moments. Of which this was one.

After a low decade I had thought that hypocracy was utterly regnant in Europe and especially in France. I was wrong.

In a very small way it reminds one of "J'accuse"

[Romain]

"I got the impression that they were not trying very hard. There were a few punch-ups but little of the brute force usually employed by the CRS riot police" CB.
Same impression, I watched the event on i>tele, it was visible that the chinese agents were panicked and disorganised, receiving an order and counter-order every 10 seconds.
Anyway the olympic comittee has lost so much credibility, that you would want to throw tomatos at them, regardless of the human rights issue.

[dot king]

I hadn't been aware, as the article suggests, that "control" of the even came from the Chinese Embassy. I suppose we should be grateful that they didn't send in tanks, in that case.
Last night's appearance on FR2 news of the head of the IOC (CIO) was sadly laughable. He seemed like just some elderly gent who couldn't understand why people couldn't respect a flame that was so symbolic. He seemed so removed from what was happening that he came across as naïve and somewhat pathetic. I can't imagine he was chosen for this high order for his presence and charisma - if he was, it must have been on one of his better days.
If anyone watched C dans l'air yesterday evening they will have seen the Paris correspondent of a major Chinese newspaper explaining that, in fact, China was the country of human rights, that the Tibetans enjoyed more human rights than the Chinese. And the smile of true belief and complacency never left his face.
This isn't to criticise him personally, but one could see, he really believes it - all of it. according to what was said, the Chinese in general are more concerned with their material progress than they are with human rights. Therefore this is, as the French say "un dialogue de sourds".

No amount of protesting, here or in the rest of the world, is going to change this and there is the HUGE danger that these protests become not pro-Tibet but anti-China.

[Ros]

" The torch-bearers, mainly French former champions, had a miserable time between hostile crowds " - I was coming out of Virgin stores yesterday about 3.30pm (just by chance as monday is often the quietest day to go there) & saw no "hostile crowds" - sometimes, Charles, I do think you exaggerate (but then I suppose that's what you journalists are meant to do). The people around were less than three deep & consisted entirely of passers-by (badauds = I think that's a lovely expressive word) and tourists. Anyhow, if anyone had wanted to see the flame on the Champs. they could not because of the continuous two way traffic.

[Well I spent much of the day in crowds numbering in the thousands, Ros. No exaggeration. CB]

[stephen Bull]

What were the French authorities thinking of when they agreed to let the Chinese deploy their "men in Blue" to protect the flame? I suspect it was a deliberate effort to make the chaos worse. Did you see Kevin Rudd saying thta in Australia security would be Australian.

[Jorg Andersen]

These demonstrations are only serving to make the Chinese angry, including the many who live in Europe and the Americas. It's hard to see them doing any good. But is useful to see someone doing something to rattle the smug, big-business Olympic machine.

[christopher muir]

OIC members are getting rattled. The Sydney Morning Herald a few hours ago quoted prominent Australian member, Kevin Gosper, as saying, "They (the protesters) just take their hate out on whatever the issues are at the time, and that hate against the host country is being taken out on our torch." It will be interesting to see what happens when "his" torch is raced through Canberra on April 24. I saw some daring climbing on the Golden Gate bridge today, so Gosper's anger will not cool down any time soon. The Brits and French have shown the way and SFO is following..

[unkle]

I hope somehow that this could trigger a change in the IOC organization.
When the Games were given to China in 2001, everybody could have guessed from the start it would change anything there.

Jacques Rogge and its clique should be wondering why they did not see it coming.

And by the way, one very easy way to join the protest if the flame does not come close to you is not to watch the event. August, the sun will be shining, plenty of stuff to do :-)

[John Gregory Flinn]

The secretive men in blue shell-suits looked like the CRS in disguise. Then I thought maybe they have hired some British unemployables - sorry unemployed. But it soon became clear they were Chinese!
I wonder if they will re-appear in San Francisco?

The 'Tibet-libre' movement have been waiting for this.
They appear to have saved up all their ire, and activist energy for the build up to the commencement of the Games. Knowing that most publicity can be gained through western media for their cause at this stage. And that most odium can be heaped on the totalitarian Beijing regime at the same time.

There is probably some genuine public sympathy for the protests mixed in with support for the Tibetan cause, against China because they are perceived as the beneficiaries of French 'delocalisations'.

"Naturally the leftwing world was fully behind the la manif."

This is not a left-right issue - all thinking people should deplore atheistic totalitarianism.

[Sedgwick]

The sad thing is we're going to have to host the vile corporate/media jerkoff that is the Olympic Games here in the UK soon. Thanks Ken.

[richard jones]

I honestly think this may be the last Olympic games or if not London will be - bet Gordon regrets London not Paris got 2012 now.
The whole issue is nothing to do with sport anymore but to do with econo-politics, including the U.S. election (wot Hillarious told George to do).
I wonder if we shouldn't move to 'fixed location' games - one city for each ring in the O-emblem and move round and round amongst them. Try and find geo-politically anondyne countries for each ring.
Finally, Tibet is just the beginning. China intimidates an independent country called Taiwan regularly. China has virtually popped the Spratly islands away from Vietnam. China does not respect many aspects of the Human Rights charter and punishes opposition vigourously (3.5 years clink for a Speaker's Corner offence??). China is ruining the environment with these Yangtze
river dams and so on!
The Games Are Up I'm afraid!!!

[Nick]

Much as I believe China's record on human rights and Tibet in particular is shameful, I find all the demonstrating typically hypocritical.
I refuse to believe that none of the protesters has ever bought a Chinese-made product.
It is a case of happily taking advantage of low-cost electronics and clothes manufacturing while at the same time exclaiming CHINA IS BAD.
Extinguishing a flame won't make China liberate Tibet. Economically shunning them might. However, that will never happen.
Reminds me of those idiots who protest about a new runway at Heathrow while happily popping to the Algarve on Ryanair twice a year.

[Mayte]

I´m really happy with how the things are going with the olympic torch. i was in Madrid´s demostration, we were just around 300 people but it was awesome.
CHINA STOP KILLING, LEAVE TIBET!!

[Robert Marchenoir]

Laurent Joffrin is happy because there is "revolt". Libération is gloating because China has been "slapped".

Unruly brats, all of them. These liberals will never grow up. Ask them to elaborate about what policies they would support, and they will go mum. ("Human rights" don't qualify as a policy.)

But being a rebel, that's nice. And risk-free, also, when exercized in the streets of Paris.

Olympic Games are about a truce. War and politics do not belong there. Woolly liberals think that only nice countries should have the privilege to host the Games.

I'd like to see the face of Delanoë when the Games take place in Paris, and the Egyptians take it to the streets to protest about French unions embezzling public funds. Or the Americans picket the French embassy to protest against excessive police powers, and searches without a judge's warrant. Which are perfectly legal here.

[dot king]

"This is not a left-right issue - all thinking people should deplore atheistic totalitarianism." (John Gregory Flynn)
What is the word "atheistic" doing in your sentence? Would pantheistic or monotheistic totalitarianism be any more acceptable?
Surely totalitarianism of any kind is deplorable?

"China has virtually popped the Spratly islands away from Vietnam." (Richard Jones)
Ah, so that's where the Spratly Islands are - I've often wondered.

"I wonder if we shouldn't move to 'fixed location' games - one city for each ring in the O-emblem and move round and round amongst them. Try and find geo-politically anondyne countries for each ring"
(Richard Jones)
This is an attractive idea which would remove (we can hope) the politico-financial influences. Or again, that the Olympics should return to Greece and be held only there.
Didn't I read, or hear somewhere that the carrying of the Olympic flame was instigated by Hitler for the 1936 Games? I hadn't known that. Time to end the practice then, even if for that sole reason.

"I refuse to believe that none of the protesters has ever bought a Chinese-made product." (Nick)
The way occidental governments have arranged things, it's very difficult for ordinary people to avoid buying things that are Made In China. There is vicious circle of profits for some, meaning delocalisation to find cheap labour for others, leading to loss of employment and purchasing power for yet others. Chinese goods flood the market, most people buy them, all over the world.
Hobson's choice for a lot of people.
You have to be really well-heeled these day to have a label that says "made in France" (or wherever you think is respectable) on everything you buy.
But this isn't China, and in spite of everything, rich or poor, we are equal and have a right to protest.

[Terry]

Unfortunately, I cant agree with Robert. Although, his sentiment about wooly liberals is well said. I have to applaud France for throwing some egg on the face of China. In America, I hope we are up to France's challenge to douse that flame as often as possible on it's 3000 mile journey. Ive got my bucket and Im ready to do my imitation of the Chinese Fire Brigade. In reality, Robert is right in that this is a silly gesture. The Olympics are supposed to be a truce from fighting and bickering. However, China is using the Olympics as propoganda. It is trying to fool the world that it is some kind of modern, utopian place. It is not. It is a cruel, despotic country no matter how you slice it. Nor is it very modern. My sister reported that they were selling rat on stick there just last year. If dousing the torch sheds some light on the real China, so be it.

Robert is correct that disrupting the torch is a far cry from real policy. However, maybe this will send a message to our own leaders who have been following this stupid policy of constructive engagement with the Chinese. Oh yes, they will allow more freedoms if we are just nice to them. This always works with bullys. At least, when you give them your lunch money. This policy has resulted in open trade for China only without any sign of freedoms for Chinese and Tibetans.

BTW: My sister, who is quite attractive, is still single at 37. She was lamenting about her search for a husband recently when I reminded her that half the men in the world are chinese. I unhappily informed her that odds were that she would marry a chinaman. She is waiting for the torch with her bucket too.

[Lily]

“Paris makes a point with Olympic fiasco.” – Paris “fait le point”. Our bank calls us regularly because they want to “faire le point” which amounts to an attitude that is telling us ‘they are in charge’ and able, or rather entitled to advise us what to do with our money – so that they will make better use of it, as well :). When a teacher approaches you and tells you that it is time to “faire le point”, you can be sure that what he/she is going to tell you won’t just be hymns of praise about your child. He/she knows because he/she is in charge and may judge.

So, now Paris has put itself in charge of making a point. In the timesonline main news section, a link is provided with the title “France crows after Paris torch fiasco.” They missed the point by leaving out that Paris has made a point. ;)

When the Olympic Games and Tibet were discussed on the earlier blog of 29/03, I was impressed about all the insights of different people looking at the same issue from different angles. Someone said that holding the Olympic Games in China simply was against the Olympic game charter and that the flame should be extinguished at China’s borders. From a political and human rights point of view, I agree with this.

On the other hand, - the athletes from all over the world participating in the Games have nothing to do with “China” and their political issues. On top of that, I agree with NICK. The boycott of the Olympic Games or the flame’s travel for that matter will change nothing about Chinese politics that are repressive and aim at economic success. If anyone wanted to change anything, people should engage in massive trade embargos, but this is plain unrealistic.

Who can afford to not buy Chinese products? Toys, clothing and electronics – are either ‘Made in China’ or contain parts that originate in China. So what?* Consumer prices have risen and continue to rise. Why? China is drinking all the crude oil, and causes price increases everywhere else. It is – apparently and sadly - not possible to dissociate China’s economic power from its political power, to the least with regards to their internal affairs.

The point about the Olympic torch is maybe good and will bring about something in its idealism. The awareness of human rights violations in Tibet will grow, at least until August. How will anyone prevent these Human Rights matters from descending into oblivion as soon as the OGs will be over? China’s economic power will continue to grow, as long as resources will be available to them.

It is “cute” to make a point: “It [France] likes a bit of rebellion and creative disorder in the name of a cause [pour faire le point].” (CB); […] (me)

Unfortunately, there isn't much more to it.

* There are sites that promote the boycott of Chinese products. I have found the advice to US consumers to buy ‘China-free’ vegetarian shoes in the UK… ;) -

[richard jones]

Dear Dot,

The last goddam thing we need here in Athens is the bloody Olympics. 2004 was a kinda positive watershed for Greece in terms of major infra-structure start-up and debt management expertise but all the Olympics would bring to Greece every 4 years would be a major multilateral security problem and anyway, Greece is hardly politically anodyne at the moment as they ensure that Makedonia's territorial claims on the Greek province of the same name (which includes Greece's second city) become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I think Zimbabwe should get the Olympics or maybe Somalia - Haiti?
because until attitudes change having the Olympics is a handicap - nay - a punishment.

[Ros]

I bet nobody can beat this - I have a photo of one of the torch-bearers from the first Olympic Games after WW2 (1948) - I took it myself while on a student trip from London University & we were in the Lake Maggiore near Stresa in Italy -He was just accompanied by a few motor bikes!
Why is it that Charles can put photos on this site & we can't? Or maybe I just don't know how to do it?

[dot king]

"The last goddam thing we need here in Athens is the bloody Olympics."
(Richard Jones)

OK, take your point, but to put it in the manner of Mrs Beeton, the famous English culinary authority "first find your (how did you put it?) geo-politically anodine country". (nice turn of phrase if I may say so:))
Perhaps we should ask the Americans if they have a space station anywhere that could take them - The Weightless Olympics - how about that?
I only mention Greece for the symobolism and because they started it all . . .
I suppose half of Cyprus isn't big enough either? ;}

[Lily]

"Why is it that Charles can put photos on this site & we can't? Or maybe I just don't know how to do it?" (Ros)

Ros,

Rocket does it regularly with his "tinyurl-" addresses. I don't know how but would also like to find out...

Is there anyone who can instruct us on how to do it? - Thanks.

[Eric Hager]

In the US, this is that rare moment when a leftist cause matches the general mood. I, who do not want to see the torch bearers attacked, do not mind at all a little rabble rousing along the route in the City (SF). Let the torch bearers run unobstructed, but let the protesters call attention to the rape of Tibet.

[Francois D]

Indeed we have seen this morning on TV (télématin France 2) , a man of Asian appearance, presented by commentator as a delegate of the Chinese Embassy, giving orders to a police officer. That is absolutely scandalous and not very glorious.

And asian men in blue all arond the car apparenly looked more chinese policemen than sportmen.

On the other hand, it is obvious that the police did not develop much effort.

An advice: if you are visiting Paris, one day, and if by hazard you are in the middle of an event (manifestation), observe clothing policemen. If they keep their cap (like all day yesterday), this is reassuring. However, if they pass from the cap to the helmet, you have few minutes to leave.

Government have managed between two risks. Not too displease the Chinese for trade contracts, not too displease the protesters for avoiding complications with internal policies, while Sarko since passage in London, and the influence Carla (present at the event for Ingrid Betancourt) gives the impression to go back (very slowly) in the polls.

[Ros]

Is there anyone who can instruct us on how to do it? - Thanks.

LILY: Yes, I agree - help please? I think it's something to do with having one's own SITE whereas this one belongs to The Times - only Charles can tell us ......

[Ros]

LILY: If you're still out there, I've discovered something! If you go into the "News Blog", then choose a Blog, then scroll down just a little way on the right, you'll see "e-mail us your pictures", so that's how it's done but not for us!?

[Blendi Progri]

The Chinese Torch – guards were taking their duty very seriously it seems, as they pushed everyone on their way. Lord Coe (2 time gold medallist) calls Chinese torch officials 'thugs' and he hoped that French authorities will ban them from running with the torch.

Channel 4 News was inadvertently connected to a private telephone conversation London Olympic Committee chairman Lord Coe was having with a member of staff and he was complaining about the Chinese guards.
---------------.
Something good may come from this charade as the Torch Ceremony may be scraped, in the future games.

The International Olympic Committee's (IOC) press commission chief Kevan Gosper insists the current relay will continue, but admitted the flame may go straight from Olympia to the host country in future.

Charles is right on saying that the Police wasn’t that heavy handed, in London was the same story. Despite 37 arrests being made, many were just moved out of the way. Police did some rugby tackles (and then just let them go,) but not very hard ones. Some policemen were having fun, and could be seen smiling. Protesters were/are aware of that.

Someone ‘ high-up ’ in democratic countries wont like to be compared with the ‘ dictatorship regimes…i.e. China’ so the Police are told to protect the Torch but not go ‘full force’ If the Police wants to or is ordered to/ they can cordon the whole area for few hours and the torch can pass with no incident.

Many commentators mention the Golden Ancient days of Olympic Games (even ICO in their declaration, while proclaiming the merits of the Torch/ Olympics ) were pure, well… maily about brotherhood, sportsmanship and peace.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2008/03/lets-get-rid-of.html

look at this Times blog by an Oxford Don, expert on ancient history) for a quick history of the torch and Olympics.

And how Polictis always interfered, it didn’t start Today, in USA, Moscow or even 1936 Olympics.
The apex for me was when Nero (the lovely-one) was let to win every event he entered, in return for some investment.

Also I want to direct our attention to the plight of Chinese athletes. The PARTY & THE FATHERLAND ( motherland?) needs Wins. Many wins. So they will have to do whatever they can to WIN. Could this be the most drug-ridden Olympics ever? I don’t know. What I do suspect is that many athletes from China will be desperate to win at any cost.

The Torch started as an idea of auntie Riefenstahl & uncle Goebbels trying to glorify Hitler, as a nazi creation it must go. It evokes mases marching forward with only one thing in their mind, Fighting.

It has started to be an embarrassment (that takes a lot, given that it was a Nazi creature)
As it needs an entourage, a full –time escort, a private hotel room, people who must stay awake not to let the flame die and so much more silliness of this kind. Even cavemen, for whom fire was a life and death matter, with no other means at the time to replicate, were less concener that these people are.

Is the Toch being prepared as a Sacred Item?!

I think that the Torch is only the tip of the iceberg, it is the ICO that has gone mad. Their representatives are fêted around the world, put in best hotels, so many freebies etc etc…and so they create stupid scenarios and make such ridiculous demands that the countries hosting it from now on, risk of becoming bankrupt.

Where is the Olympic Spirit in that?! it was said that sportsmen will run with the Torch ( I don’t know about Paris, but in London) the headlines were made by Konnie Hoq, an ex Blue Peter presenter ( kids programme in BBC) also Denisse Van Outten and ex-TV AM ( from Chanel 4) presenter and a celebrity- both not connected with sport at ALL.
It goes without saying that grande gestures of this kind always end in laughter (or tears), LOL and no wonder that London caps were smiling.
What will happen in USA and Australia…

Now, Has the torch has become Too Hot To Handle.

[Valentin]

""Naturally the leftwing world was fully behind the la manif."

Naturally?? HAH ! Charles, we have here, for the first time in history, leftwing people demonstrating against A COMMUNIST DICTATORSHIP ! :)

And while we're at that, I'm still waiting for a manif against Cuba...

(oh and I must protest at R.Marchenoir calling leftwing "liberals"; they're so NOT liberals - nothing to do with Montesquieu, Adam Smith, Hayek, or even F.D. Roosevelt)

[Valentin]

"Who can afford to not buy Chinese products? Toys, clothing and electronics"

A figure of speech in a well turned post. The reality is that lots of people avoid buying Chinese, ask where clothes are made, chase the "made in" label on the back of the products... to such extent, that a score of companies export their China-made products to Singapore or Malaysia and put in an extra nail, just to be able to call them "made in Singapore" - or at least "further assembled in".

(the vegetarian part isn't absurd either - transporting giant volumes of goods half round the globe is almost as polluting as a new Chinese coal factory)

[Valentin]

"Yes, I agree - help please? I think it's something to do with having one's own SITE"

One can create a free account on Flickr.com or other free photo sites, then link photos here via tinyurl.com (thus the link will be short and the real site address remain private)

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

passions are running high here on the board and the french are back in the streets where they belong, in their natural habitat.

i am amused that Terry finally has located Tibet on the map and is now planning to take his water bucket to the torch parade.

Nick, Robert M., Dot and Lily expressed either full or limited reservations about these protests for which each should be commended.

but the person whose opinion i'd really value at this juncture is Little Big Horn. now there's a guy who could really turn this debate into a free-for-all, or, preferably, befuddle everyone into silence.

as a practicing taoist/buddhist, i don't like chinese treatment of tibet and its culture. but it started forty-five years ago, folks. dousing the olympic flame now won't turn back the clock and may actually cause the chinese to crack down harder on tibetan dissidents.

but would leftist parisians, or Terry, give a shit about this (if they could even imagine it)? i doubt it.

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

"Paris rediscovered its sense of revolt for the occasion.' Joffrin, quoted by CB

isn't it interesting how much self-satisfaction is available with so little effort, when the stakes are zero and you get to go home for dinner?

[Monika]

I simply have to cheer to the French and British demonstrators. Even though this might change nothing in China's policy it shows its despotic leaders that their propaganda effort going with the OG is in vain.
Furthermore it shows to the leaders in the respective countries what the people think about this issue. And to the IOC btw.
What would have been the alternative? To stay silent and show China that no one cares about Tibet? No. It may be that you can't do much to stop injustice but at least you can stand up and name it as what it is.

[Robert Marchenoir]

Valentin:

"I must protest at R.Marchenoir calling leftwing liberals."

Isn't that funny? In English, the word "liberal" has the very opposite meaning it has in French.

An American liberal supports high taxes, big government, welfare programs, gender studies and multicultural sensitivity training; he watches French movies, quotes from Derrida, drives a Toyota Prius and thinks Everything is Bush's Fault.

In short, he is a communist scumbag -- ahem! pardon my French, I mean he's on the left-hand side of the political spectrum.

Whereas in France, a "libéral" ranks somewhere between a child molester and a nazi. Which is quite understable since he eats a working poor for breakfast, kills a dozen polar bears while driving a 4-ton SUV to his executive suite, and proceeds with ringing his pal Sarkozy's mobile, to make sure the industrial relations code is shredded to bits before the end of the day.

This slight discrepancy explains a lot of the bad feelings between France and Anglo-Saxony.

As for...

"Lots of people avoid buying Chinese, ask where clothes are made..."

I've never seen, heard or read anything to that effect in France. On the other hand, I see many signs that people are frantically searching for the lowest prices.

Besides, how do you avoid buying Chinese? By asking the salesman to dismantle the computer you covet before your eyes, and checking that not a single chip or bit of plastic is made in China?

[Terry]

Azloon:

"as a practicing taoist/buddhist"

When are you going to stop practicing and actually become a taoist/buddhist?

I didnt suddenly find Tibet. I saw the Dali Lama speak here 2 or 3 years ago. And I have spoken out numerous times against communist china and other totalitarian governments.

So, no one is supposed to protest because China might crack down on Tibet? What nonsense, Azloon. I am surprised. Martin Luther King shouldnt have protested because whites might crack down more on blacks? No one should have protested the South African apartheid regime because the government might clamp down on the "kaffers"? Is that as far as you're thinking takes you?

I dont like to see violence. Sitting quiet only allows the totalitarian government to keep on doing what it's doing though.

[Sam Young]

Wow, so many comments. I thought i would never got to the comments box to add mine, by far the most interesting.
Being of a logical bent, here are 9 reasons why Paris Makes a Stupid Point.
--------
1) Professional athletes are driven by love of their sport. They have a rough time (high risk, weekend traveling, uncertain finances). Why should they pay a higher price than other members of society?
2) Want to Boycott? Ok, then, let’s go the whole way. Let’s not buy another more products from or sell any more products to China (including Government debt). No-one is seriously suggesting this. So, once again, why single out athletes for punishment?
3) Human Rights are not universal. They are linked to place and time. Bear in mind that the concept of Human Rights goes hand in glove with the concept of the Individual. We, here in Europe and the USA are the legatees of the Renaissance / Enlightenment, leading to the famous “I think, therefore I am” from Descartes. Africa, Asia and the Middle East did not have these movements. In the particular case of China, therefore, is it not reasonable to suggest that their idea of human rights is not the same as ours. When I hear the human rights brigade, I see arrogant people, incapable of accepting that other people, in other countries, do not think like them. Who are we to impose our ideas of human rights?
4) Look at what is commonplace here in Europe; to wit: pupils openly mocking their teachers (my son’s school report card the other day explicitly states that it not the teachers’ job to discipline their pupils); court sanctions are perceived to be excessively lenient; a group of eco-nutters in Ireland who, for the past 8 years, have been blocking the construction of a much-needed motorway leading out of Dublin. In other words, there are too many of these so called “human rights” in Europe. Perhaps we could learn something from China?
5) Who are these protesters? A handful of Tibetans and then the usual cretins. This week, it’s Tibet, last week, it was Iraq, next week, it will be Genetically Modified Organisms (against them, of course; these people are against everything). Where do they find the time? Why aren’t they working on a Monday afternoon. I understand now why these people don’t work; what with their intensive protesting program, they quite simply don’t have time to work. If these people were in charge, we would still be living in caves. Morons, every last one of them.
6) What evidence is there to suggest that protesting will change anything? Can anyone really suggest that this protesting is going to result in something positive for Tibet. Why, it could make things even worse since China could refuse to be browbeaten into pliancy.
7) Perhaps bringing the games to China could actually be a force for positive change in the country?
8) Do we even know what we are talking about? Are there thousands of China and Tibet experts out there? Maybe Tibet does belong to China.
9) I would rather, any day of the week, be governed by Chinese Officials than by the self-righteous flag-waving hooligans, canting their fluent gibberish (btw, to all you non-native speakers of English out there, please feel the beauty of the English language as in “canting their fluent gibberish”).

Thanks for reading the rant, and free China now!

[Sam Young]

Wow, so many comments. I thought i would never got to the comments box to add mine, by far the most interesting.
Being of a logical bent, here are 9 reasons why Paris Makes a Stupid Point.
--------
1) Professional athletes are driven by love of their sport. They have a rough time (high risk, weekend traveling, uncertain finances). Why should they pay a higher price than other members of society?
2) Want to Boycott? Ok, then, let’s go the whole way. Let’s not buy another more products from or sell any more products to China (including Government debt). No-one is seriously suggesting this. So, once again, why single out athletes for punishment?
3) Human Rights are not universal. They are linked to place and time. Bear in mind that the concept of Human Rights goes hand in glove with the concept of the Individual. We, here in Europe and the USA are the legatees of the Renaissance / Enlightenment, leading to the famous “I think, therefore I am” from Descartes. Africa, Asia and the Middle East did not have these movements. In the particular case of China, therefore, is it not reasonable to suggest that their idea of human rights is not the same as ours. When I hear the human rights brigade, I see arrogant people, incapable of accepting that other people, in other countries, do not think like them. Who are we to impose our ideas of human rights?
4) Look at what is commonplace here in Europe; to wit: pupils openly mocking their teachers (my son’s school report card the other day explicitly states that it not the teachers’ job to discipline their pupils); court sanctions are perceived to be excessively lenient; a group of eco-nutters in Ireland who, for the past 8 years, have been blocking the construction of a much-needed motorway leading out of Dublin. In other words, there are too many of these so called “human rights” in Europe. Perhaps we could learn something from China?
5) Who are these protesters? A handful of Tibetans and then the usual cretins. This week, it’s Tibet, last week, it was Iraq, next week, it will be Genetically Modified Organisms (against them, of course; these people are against everything). Where do they find the time? Why aren’t they working on a Monday afternoon. I understand now why these people don’t work; what with their intensive protesting program, they quite simply don’t have time to work. If these people were in charge, we would still be living in caves. Morons, every last one of them.
6) What evidence is there to suggest that protesting will change anything? Can anyone really suggest that this protesting is going to result in something positive for Tibet. Why, it could make things even worse since China could refuse to be browbeaten into pliancy.
7) Perhaps bringing the games to China could actually be a force for positive change in the country?
8) Do we even know what we are talking about? Are there thousands of China and Tibet experts out there? Maybe Tibet does belong to China.
9) I would rather, any day of the week, be governed by Chinese Officials than by the self-righteous flag-waving hooligans, canting their fluent gibberish (btw, to all you non-native speakers of English out there, please feel the beauty of the English language as in “canting their fluent gibberish”).

Thanks for reading the rant, and free China now!

[Mary Fernandez]

I'm sure San Francisco will be interesting. It is a city of professional protestors who'll lie down in the middle of Market Street for absolutely no reason at all. Once a month, they'll shut down traffic during rush hour just to protest cars. They've been practicing for this all week. (Oh, if Mark Twain were alive to visit this city just one more time!)

The only wrinkle in this is that San Fran is a very heavily Chinese immigrant/Sino-American populated city. Will they be pro-China or pro-Tibet?

Will any of this protesting amount to anything? Nope. It's about as helpful as one of those aid concerts. It makes the participants feel like they did something without making much of a sacrifice. Everyone pats themselves on the back and the cause remains for the next year.

China will never free Tibet. If it did, there are 10 or 15 other less peaceful (Muslim) provinces that are already making trouble about breaking free. These Olympic protesters are irksome gnats compared to that problem.

[Lily]

"the french are back in the streets where they belong, in their natural habitat." (Azloon)

:)

I heard Americans climbed up their bridges - their natural habitat?

[Lily]

Valentin,

Thank you for the free photo site/tinyurl.com-link info!

[Romain]

The only wrinkle in this is that San Fran is a very heavily Chinese immigrant/Sino-American populated city. Will they be pro-China or pro-Tibet? Mary Fernandez.
A Chinese is always pro-Chinese Nation, regardless of the government's positions. Even former boat people and their children support China's Olympic propaganda.
Human rights issues is a remote concept, good for European loons.

[Lily]

Interesting account of a San Francisco torch bearer (against protests, obviously):

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/04/08/intv.torch.zia.cnn

[Valentin]

Robert Marchenoir:
"I've never seen, heard or read anything to that effect in France."

I know you walk, buy, and know a lot of people, Robert (probably un échantillon représentatif, while at that).
It's just that -- you know, you've got to read the papers too, from time to time :)

(try and look at the back of any electrical or electronic device, you'll certainly find some "Assembled in Malaysia, further assembled in China"; I won't even mention Apple who says "Designed in California, USA, assembled in China")

[Ros]

Azloon: There seems to be quite a lot of movement in San Francisco too...........

[Ros]

Valentin: Thanks for the photo advice - shall endeavour to try it out.

[richard jones]

Interesting to see Valentin speaking for the buying habits of a whole nation.
I have never seen an Apple product labelled as Valentin suggests - perhaps a reference to abate my myopia.
To Sam Young - I thought it was 'cantoning their fluent gibberish'.
Anyway, the Olympic spirit is dead, bring on the MacDonald games which will have events like the three-legged race and spot the American Idiot (sorry Idol). Bear Stearn will be the official sponsor for these Games and they will take place every 4 months in Pensacola or in case of too many demonstrations in the secret vaults of Fort Knox.

[Robert Marchenoir]

Valentin: you are high on irony and low on understanding.

My point is that if you wanted to avoid buying Chinese, you'd have to live naked in the middle of the woods, with maybe a stale copy of Libération to protect your head from the rain (and even that is debatable).

On the issue of Frenchmen actually trying not to buy Chinese products -- as opposed to doing it successfully, your attempt at disqualifying my testimony is puerile. In my book, one's man testimony is worth as much as another one's.

If we go beyond anecdotal evidence and hearsay, maybe you could try and come up with the name of a mainstream political party, association or union who has ever called for such a boycott (Tibetan exiles and fringe groups don't count).

There might certainly be some individuals, with time on their hands and money in their pockets, who pester sales clerks in order to weed Chinese products out of their trolleys. It's just that I've never come across one.

And I doubt you'd find many of them among the hordes of people shifting through second-hand clothes in charity shops or street markets, queuing up for free foodstuff at the Restaurants du coeur, or buying essentials at hard-discount supermarkets.

The sort of people who consider mainstream hypermarkets, such as Carrefour and Auchan, as luxury outlets way above their means.

[dot king]

Sam Young - I know they aren't fooling anyone, but Olympic athletes are amateurs. That's supposed to be the whole point - or one of them.
You know, for the love of sport, the honour of participing; all those neat values.

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

Sam Young, thanks so much for stating the not-so-obvious. the truth, as you present it in rant form, is hard to 'take in' when one is having so much fun prancing around in the street and believing it is actually making a difference. incredibly, these folks (Terry?) don't seem to know or care that the Dali Lama doesn't support them, a guy who knows a bit about the subject .

the next time protestors feel like going to the streets to extinguish the olympic flame, i would suggest they instead consider donating blood to their local blood bank, or some other civic/humanitarian act. they then would actually be doing something useful which requires a modicum of sacrifice, instead of smugly adding to the costs of police protection and eroding further france's pouvoir d'echat (and in such a disgustingly self-congratulatory way).

Ros: SF is a' high multiple' of Paris in terms of public idiocy. don't use anything you see there as any indication of general american sentiment. Mary F. who lives across the SF Bay (in her own hippie enclave) can explain (and has) in further detail.

Terry, in the case of Taoism, my practice is occasional, but persistent. mastery is not the point, tho i appreciate your joke (i think i used the same one in a post last week about the french practicing communion).

BTW, Taoism is virtually unknown in present day China. just last night, I gave a beautiful illustrated copy of the Tao Te Ching to a chinese friend of mine here. she was fascinated by it, but had never heard of it (Mao destroyed Chinese culture). she did though have interesting comments about the original chinese characters which appear on each facing page.

"The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of the ten thousand things." (First verse of Tao)

if Journalism is the trumpet of the ten thousand things and this blog a daily diary of them, then Google (and the WWW) certainly is the Mother of the Ten Trillion Things.

but the effect is the same. always will be.

[Terry]

Here is one reason why Sam Young makes a stupid point.

"3) Human Rights are not universal. They are linked to place and time. In the particular case of China, therefore, is it not reasonable to suggest that their idea of human rights is not the same as ours. When I hear the human rights brigade, I see arrogant people, incapable of accepting that other people, in other countries, do not think like them. Who are we to impose our ideas of human rights?"

I would turn that around, Sam. What right do to chinese communist thugs with guns have to impose their rather sadistic notion of human rights on the chinese people without their consent. The Chinese communist government was not voted into office. They do not govern with the consent of the chinese people. In China, you do what they say or you die or are imprisoned. Who are they to tell the chinese people that they have no rights whatsoever?

Human rights are not universal, Sam? Human rights should be dictated by time and space? If that were the case, the Holocaust was perfectly acceptable morally. Who were we to impose our notions on Nazi Germany and judge them? Human rights are limited to geography, right? Slavery in America was morally justified too? After all, human rights for blacks are not universal under your theory. They were only free in Africa. But in America, it's ok that they were slaves because human rights are not universal. Who was anyone to tell us that was wrong? I know you dont actually believe the holocaust or slavery were acceptable behaviors, Sam. But that is where your notion that human rights are not universal takes you.

In a world where there are no objective values of truth or justice, you would be right though.

BTW: You dont think the chinese government has a different idea of human rights? Why dont you move there and write a letter to the editor complaining about the government. I am sure you'll get a good, swift and thorough lesson in Chinese "human rights".

[dot king]

"the next time protestors feel like going to the streets to extinguish the olympic flame," Azloon

the protesters went on to the street to protest, I make no comment about that here, but it was the chinese police (the little men in turquoise tracksuits trying to look like athletes and not highly trained bash-squads) who extinguished the Olympic flame - unless you were being figurative . . .