Paris makes a point with Olympic fiasco

The Olympic flame's day in Paris was a mess. I spent a few hours in the midst of yesterday's demonstrations, beginning with the sinister start below the Eiffel tower under the guard of hundreds of police and Chinese security.

Yet, despite the débâcle which ended with the Chinese rushing the flame out of town on a bus, it is impossible not to detect a little satisfaction in the air. The relay was a chaotic fiasco, marred by jeering crowds and scuffles with the militant pro-Tibetans. The torch-bearers, mainly French former champions, had a miserable time between hostile crowds and the strong-arm tactics of their Chinese handlers. President Sarkozy's government had reason to be embarrassed. But there is a feeling today that, even if it was futile, France at least made a gesture by venting its discontent over the Beijing games and human rights. I say France because the demonstrators enjoyed quite broad support. France prides itself on being "the home of human rights" and it likes a bit of rebellion and creative disorder in the name of a cause. The Beijing torch relay from the Eiffel tower down the Champs Elysées and on to Notre Dame cathedral offered the right moment and symbols. By the end of the afternoon yesterday, the demonstrations had become a festive occasion, joined by teenagers and office-workers.

Laurent Joffrin, Editor of Libération, was for once happy this morning. "Paris rediscovered its sense of revolt for the occasion. It took it upon itself to remind the world that hypocrisy has a limit," he wrote. "The Olympic flame has turned into a shameful candle-end."

Naturally the leftwing world was fully behind the la manif. Mayor Bertrand Delanoe, a Socialist, hung a rights banner across the front of the City Hall. Green councillors added a more aggressive one so the Chinese cancelled the ceremony there and the torch convoy sped past the Mayor without stopping. He shrugged and said: "The cohabitation of the Olympics and human rights disturbs them. That's their problem. We were ready to receive them but not to sacrifice our principles."

But there was also quiet support from President Sarkozy's conservative political camp. Half a dozen members of parliament for his Union for a Popular Movement joined a protest by mainly leftwing legislators outside the National Assembly. The organisers ordered the convoy to cancel a stop there.

On one level, the chaotic day made a mockery of the crowd control skills of the well equipped French police. They had said that the torch would be protected by an inviolable 200-metre long "security bubble". This burst within minutes. In the thick of it, however, I got the impression that they were not trying very hard. There were a few punch-ups but little of the brute force usually employed by the CRS riot police. Most of them were not wearing helmets and body armour. The feeling was confirmed this morning by Michèle Alliot-Marie, the Interior Minister, who is national police chief.

She essentially blamed the Chinese embassy for the mess. They had controlled the day's events and the police had been there to help keep order for them. "We had to balance this with the right of people to demonstrate," she said on Europe 1 radio.

Sarkozy watched events on television as the torch ran past the Elysée Palace. His people hope that the public excitement will cool because there is not much that they can do to satisfy public discontent over China. Sarko is maintaining his threat to stay away from the opening ceremony in Beijing in August but few imagine him doing so.

[Headline: China: the slap in the face]

Comments

[Don S]

"It took it upon itself to remind the world that hypocrisy has a limit. The Olympic flame has turned into a shameful candle-end."

Amazing, absolutely amazing. This reminds me of why it is impossible not to love the French, at least in their best moments. Of which this was one.

After a low decade I had thought that hypocracy was utterly regnant in Europe and especially in France. I was wrong.

In a very small way it reminds one of "J'accuse"

[Romain]

"I got the impression that they were not trying very hard. There were a few punch-ups but little of the brute force usually employed by the CRS riot police" CB.
Same impression, I watched the event on i>tele, it was visible that the chinese agents were panicked and disorganised, receiving an order and counter-order every 10 seconds.
Anyway the olympic comittee has lost so much credibility, that you would want to throw tomatos at them, regardless of the human rights issue.

[dot king]

I hadn't been aware, as the article suggests, that "control" of the even came from the Chinese Embassy. I suppose we should be grateful that they didn't send in tanks, in that case.
Last night's appearance on FR2 news of the head of the IOC (CIO) was sadly laughable. He seemed like just some elderly gent who couldn't understand why people couldn't respect a flame that was so symbolic. He seemed so removed from what was happening that he came across as naïve and somewhat pathetic. I can't imagine he was chosen for this high order for his presence and charisma - if he was, it must have been on one of his better days.
If anyone watched C dans l'air yesterday evening they will have seen the Paris correspondent of a major Chinese newspaper explaining that, in fact, China was the country of human rights, that the Tibetans enjoyed more human rights than the Chinese. And the smile of true belief and complacency never left his face.
This isn't to criticise him personally, but one could see, he really believes it - all of it. according to what was said, the Chinese in general are more concerned with their material progress than they are with human rights. Therefore this is, as the French say "un dialogue de sourds".

No amount of protesting, here or in the rest of the world, is going to change this and there is the HUGE danger that these protests become not pro-Tibet but anti-China.

[Ros]

" The torch-bearers, mainly French former champions, had a miserable time between hostile crowds " - I was coming out of Virgin stores yesterday about 3.30pm (just by chance as monday is often the quietest day to go there) & saw no "hostile crowds" - sometimes, Charles, I do think you exaggerate (but then I suppose that's what you journalists are meant to do). The people around were less than three deep & consisted entirely of passers-by (badauds = I think that's a lovely expressive word) and tourists. Anyhow, if anyone had wanted to see the flame on the Champs. they could not because of the continuous two way traffic.

[Well I spent much of the day in crowds numbering in the thousands, Ros. No exaggeration. CB]

[stephen Bull]

What were the French authorities thinking of when they agreed to let the Chinese deploy their "men in Blue" to protect the flame? I suspect it was a deliberate effort to make the chaos worse. Did you see Kevin Rudd saying thta in Australia security would be Australian.

[Jorg Andersen]

These demonstrations are only serving to make the Chinese angry, including the many who live in Europe and the Americas. It's hard to see them doing any good. But is useful to see someone doing something to rattle the smug, big-business Olympic machine.

[christopher muir]

OIC members are getting rattled. The Sydney Morning Herald a few hours ago quoted prominent Australian member, Kevin Gosper, as saying, "They (the protesters) just take their hate out on whatever the issues are at the time, and that hate against the host country is being taken out on our torch." It will be interesting to see what happens when "his" torch is raced through Canberra on April 24. I saw some daring climbing on the Golden Gate bridge today, so Gosper's anger will not cool down any time soon. The Brits and French have shown the way and SFO is following..

[unkle]

I hope somehow that this could trigger a change in the IOC organization.
When the Games were given to China in 2001, everybody could have guessed from the start it would change anything there.

Jacques Rogge and its clique should be wondering why they did not see it coming.

And by the way, one very easy way to join the protest if the flame does not come close to you is not to watch the event. August, the sun will be shining, plenty of stuff to do :-)

[John Gregory Flinn]

The secretive men in blue shell-suits looked like the CRS in disguise. Then I thought maybe they have hired some British unemployables - sorry unemployed. But it soon became clear they were Chinese!
I wonder if they will re-appear in San Francisco?

The 'Tibet-libre' movement have been waiting for this.
They appear to have saved up all their ire, and activist energy for the build up to the commencement of the Games. Knowing that most publicity can be gained through western media for their cause at this stage. And that most odium can be heaped on the totalitarian Beijing regime at the same time.

There is probably some genuine public sympathy for the protests mixed in with support for the Tibetan cause, against China because they are perceived as the beneficiaries of French 'delocalisations'.

"Naturally the leftwing world was fully behind the la manif."

This is not a left-right issue - all thinking people should deplore atheistic totalitarianism.

[Sedgwick]

The sad thing is we're going to have to host the vile corporate/media jerkoff that is the Olympic Games here in the UK soon. Thanks Ken.

[richard jones]

I honestly think this may be the last Olympic games or if not London will be - bet Gordon regrets London not Paris got 2012 now.
The whole issue is nothing to do with sport anymore but to do with econo-politics, including the U.S. election (wot Hillarious told George to do).
I wonder if we shouldn't move to 'fixed location' games - one city for each ring in the O-emblem and move round and round amongst them. Try and find geo-politically anondyne countries for each ring.
Finally, Tibet is just the beginning. China intimidates an independent country called Taiwan regularly. China has virtually popped the Spratly islands away from Vietnam. China does not respect many aspects of the Human Rights charter and punishes opposition vigourously (3.5 years clink for a Speaker's Corner offence??). China is ruining the environment with these Yangtze
river dams and so on!
The Games Are Up I'm afraid!!!

[Nick]

Much as I believe China's record on human rights and Tibet in particular is shameful, I find all the demonstrating typically hypocritical.
I refuse to believe that none of the protesters has ever bought a Chinese-made product.
It is a case of happily taking advantage of low-cost electronics and clothes manufacturing while at the same time exclaiming CHINA IS BAD.
Extinguishing a flame won't make China liberate Tibet. Economically shunning them might. However, that will never happen.
Reminds me of those idiots who protest about a new runway at Heathrow while happily popping to the Algarve on Ryanair twice a year.

[Mayte]

I´m really happy with how the things are going with the olympic torch. i was in Madrid´s demostration, we were just around 300 people but it was awesome.
CHINA STOP KILLING, LEAVE TIBET!!

[Robert Marchenoir]

Laurent Joffrin is happy because there is "revolt". Libération is gloating because China has been "slapped".

Unruly brats, all of them. These liberals will never grow up. Ask them to elaborate about what policies they would support, and they will go mum. ("Human rights" don't qualify as a policy.)

But being a rebel, that's nice. And risk-free, also, when exercized in the streets of Paris.

Olympic Games are about a truce. War and politics do not belong there. Woolly liberals think that only nice countries should have the privilege to host the Games.

I'd like to see the face of Delanoë when the Games take place in Paris, and the Egyptians take it to the streets to protest about French unions embezzling public funds. Or the Americans picket the French embassy to protest against excessive police powers, and searches without a judge's warrant. Which are perfectly legal here.

[dot king]

"This is not a left-right issue - all thinking people should deplore atheistic totalitarianism." (John Gregory Flynn)
What is the word "atheistic" doing in your sentence? Would pantheistic or monotheistic totalitarianism be any more acceptable?
Surely totalitarianism of any kind is deplorable?

"China has virtually popped the Spratly islands away from Vietnam." (Richard Jones)
Ah, so that's where the Spratly Islands are - I've often wondered.

"I wonder if we shouldn't move to 'fixed location' games - one city for each ring in the O-emblem and move round and round amongst them. Try and find geo-politically anondyne countries for each ring"
(Richard Jones)
This is an attractive idea which would remove (we can hope) the politico-financial influences. Or again, that the Olympics should return to Greece and be held only there.
Didn't I read, or hear somewhere that the carrying of the Olympic flame was instigated by Hitler for the 1936 Games? I hadn't known that. Time to end the practice then, even if for that sole reason.

"I refuse to believe that none of the protesters has ever bought a Chinese-made product." (Nick)
The way occidental governments have arranged things, it's very difficult for ordinary people to avoid buying things that are Made In China. There is vicious circle of profits for some, meaning delocalisation to find cheap labour for others, leading to loss of employment and purchasing power for yet others. Chinese goods flood the market, most people buy them, all over the world.
Hobson's choice for a lot of people.
You have to be really well-heeled these day to have a label that says "made in France" (or wherever you think is respectable) on everything you buy.
But this isn't China, and in spite of everything, rich or poor, we are equal and have a right to protest.

[Terry]

Unfortunately, I cant agree with Robert. Although, his sentiment about wooly liberals is well said. I have to applaud France for throwing some egg on the face of China. In America, I hope we are up to France's challenge to douse that flame as often as possible on it's 3000 mile journey. Ive got my bucket and Im ready to do my imitation of the Chinese Fire Brigade. In reality, Robert is right in that this is a silly gesture. The Olympics are supposed to be a truce from fighting and bickering. However, China is using the Olympics as propoganda. It is trying to fool the world that it is some kind of modern, utopian place. It is not. It is a cruel, despotic country no matter how you slice it. Nor is it very modern. My sister reported that they were selling rat on stick there just last year. If dousing the torch sheds some light on the real China, so be it.

Robert is correct that disrupting the torch is a far cry from real policy. However, maybe this will send a message to our own leaders who have been following this stupid policy of constructive engagement with the Chinese. Oh yes, they will allow more freedoms if we are just nice to them. This always works with bullys. At least, when you give them your lunch money. This policy has resulted in open trade for China only without any sign of freedoms for Chinese and Tibetans.

BTW: My sister, who is quite attractive, is still single at 37. She was lamenting about her search for a husband recently when I reminded her that half the men in the world are chinese. I unhappily informed her that odds were that she would marry a chinaman. She is waiting for the torch with her bucket too.

[Lily]

“Paris makes a point with Olympic fiasco.” – Paris “fait le point”. Our bank calls us regularly because they want to “faire le point” which amounts to an attitude that is telling us ‘they are in charge’ and able, or rather entitled to advise us what to do with our money – so that they will make better use of it, as well :). When a teacher approaches you and tells you that it is time to “faire le point”, you can be sure that what he/she is going to tell you won’t just be hymns of praise about your child. He/she knows because he/she is in charge and may judge.

So, now Paris has put itself in charge of making a point. In the timesonline main news section, a link is provided with the title “France crows after Paris torch fiasco.” They missed the point by leaving out that Paris has made a point. ;)

When the Olympic Games and Tibet were discussed on the earlier blog of 29/03, I was impressed about all the insights of different people looking at the same issue from different angles. Someone said that holding the Olympic Games in China simply was against the Olympic game charter and that the flame should be extinguished at China’s borders. From a political and human rights point of view, I agree with this.

On the other hand, - the athletes from all over the world participating in the Games have nothing to do with “China” and their political issues. On top of that, I agree with NICK. The boycott of the Olympic Games or the flame’s travel for that matter will change nothing about Chinese politics that are repressive and aim at economic success. If anyone wanted to change anything, people should engage in massive trade embargos, but this is plain unrealistic.

Who can afford to not buy Chinese products? Toys, clothing and electronics – are either ‘Made in China’ or contain parts that originate in China. So what?* Consumer prices have risen and continue to rise. Why? China is drinking all the crude oil, and causes price increases everywhere else. It is – apparently and sadly - not possible to dissociate China’s economic power from its political power, to the least with regards to their internal affairs.

The point about the Olympic torch is maybe good and will bring about something in its idealism. The awareness of human rights violations in Tibet will grow, at least until August. How will anyone prevent these Human Rights matters from descending into oblivion as soon as the OGs will be over? China’s economic power will continue to grow, as long as resources will be available to them.

It is “cute” to make a point: “It [France] likes a bit of rebellion and creative disorder in the name of a cause [pour faire le point].” (CB); […] (me)

Unfortunately, there isn't much more to it.

* There are sites that promote the boycott of Chinese products. I have found the advice to US consumers to buy ‘China-free’ vegetarian shoes in the UK… ;) -

[richard jones]

Dear Dot,

The last goddam thing we need here in Athens is the bloody Olympics. 2004 was a kinda positive watershed for Greece in terms of major infra-structure start-up and debt management expertise but all the Olympics would bring to Greece every 4 years would be a major multilateral security problem and anyway, Greece is hardly politically anodyne at the moment as they ensure that Makedonia's territorial claims on the Greek province of the same name (which includes Greece's second city) become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I think Zimbabwe should get the Olympics or maybe Somalia - Haiti?
because until attitudes change having the Olympics is a handicap - nay - a punishment.

[Ros]

I bet nobody can beat this - I have a photo of one of the torch-bearers from the first Olympic Games after WW2 (1948) - I took it myself while on a student trip from London University & we were in the Lake Maggiore near Stresa in Italy -He was just accompanied by a few motor bikes!
Why is it that Charles can put photos on this site & we can't? Or maybe I just don't know how to do it?

[dot king]

"The last goddam thing we need here in Athens is the bloody Olympics."
(Richard Jones)

OK, take your point, but to put it in the manner of Mrs Beeton, the famous English culinary authority "first find your (how did you put it?) geo-politically anodine country". (nice turn of phrase if I may say so:))
Perhaps we should ask the Americans if they have a space station anywhere that could take them - The Weightless Olympics - how about that?
I only mention Greece for the symobolism and because they started it all . . .
I suppose half of Cyprus isn't big enough either? ;}

[Lily]

"Why is it that Charles can put photos on this site & we can't? Or maybe I just don't know how to do it?" (Ros)

Ros,

Rocket does it regularly with his "tinyurl-" addresses. I don't know how but would also like to find out...

Is there anyone who can instruct us on how to do it? - Thanks.

[Eric Hager]

In the US, this is that rare moment when a leftist cause matches the general mood. I, who do not want to see the torch bearers attacked, do not mind at all a little rabble rousing along the route in the City (SF). Let the torch bearers run unobstructed, but let the protesters call attention to the rape of Tibet.

[Francois D]

Indeed we have seen this morning on TV (télématin France 2) , a man of Asian appearance, presented by commentator as a delegate of the Chinese Embassy, giving orders to a police officer. That is absolutely scandalous and not very glorious.

And asian men in blue all arond the car apparenly looked more chinese policemen than sportmen.

On the other hand, it is obvious that the police did not develop much effort.

An advice: if you are visiting Paris, one day, and if by hazard you are in the middle of an event (manifestation), observe clothing policemen. If they keep their cap (like all day yesterday), this is reassuring. However, if they pass from the cap to the helmet, you have few minutes to leave.

Government have managed between two risks. Not too displease the Chinese for trade contracts, not too displease the protesters for avoiding complications with internal policies, while Sarko since passage in London, and the influence Carla (present at the event for Ingrid Betancourt) gives the impression to go back (very slowly) in the polls.

[Ros]

Is there anyone who can instruct us on how to do it? - Thanks.

LILY: Yes, I agree - help please? I think it's something to do with having one's own SITE whereas this one belongs to The Times - only Charles can tell us ......

[Ros]

LILY: If you're still out there, I've discovered something! If you go into the "News Blog", then choose a Blog, then scroll down just a little way on the right, you'll see "e-mail us your pictures", so that's how it's done but not for us!?

[Blendi Progri]

The Chinese Torch – guards were taking their duty very seriously it seems, as they pushed everyone on their way. Lord Coe (2 time gold medallist) calls Chinese torch officials 'thugs' and he hoped that French authorities will ban them from running with the torch.

Channel 4 News was inadvertently connected to a private telephone conversation London Olympic Committee chairman Lord Coe was having with a member of staff and he was complaining about the Chinese guards.
---------------.
Something good may come from this charade as the Torch Ceremony may be scraped, in the future games.

The International Olympic Committee's (IOC) press commission chief Kevan Gosper insists the current relay will continue, but admitted the flame may go straight from Olympia to the host country in future.

Charles is right on saying that the Police wasn’t that heavy handed, in London was the same story. Despite 37 arrests being made, many were just moved out of the way. Police did some rugby tackles (and then just let them go,) but not very hard ones. Some policemen were having fun, and could be seen smiling. Protesters were/are aware of that.

Someone ‘ high-up ’ in democratic countries wont like to be compared with the ‘ dictatorship regimes…i.e. China’ so the Police are told to protect the Torch but not go ‘full force’ If the Police wants to or is ordered to/ they can cordon the whole area for few hours and the torch can pass with no incident.

Many commentators mention the Golden Ancient days of Olympic Games (even ICO in their declaration, while proclaiming the merits of the Torch/ Olympics ) were pure, well… maily about brotherhood, sportsmanship and peace.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2008/03/lets-get-rid-of.html

look at this Times blog by an Oxford Don, expert on ancient history) for a quick history of the torch and Olympics.

And how Polictis always interfered, it didn’t start Today, in USA, Moscow or even 1936 Olympics.
The apex for me was when Nero (the lovely-one) was let to win every event he entered, in return for some investment.

Also I want to direct our attention to the plight of Chinese athletes. The PARTY & THE FATHERLAND ( motherland?) needs Wins. Many wins. So they will have to do whatever they can to WIN. Could this be the most drug-ridden Olympics ever? I don’t know. What I do suspect is that many athletes from China will be desperate to win at any cost.

The Torch started as an idea of auntie Riefenstahl & uncle Goebbels trying to glorify Hitler, as a nazi creation it must go. It evokes mases marching forward with only one thing in their mind, Fighting.

It has started to be an embarrassment (that takes a lot, given that it was a Nazi creature)
As it needs an entourage, a full –time escort, a private hotel room, people who must stay awake not to let the flame die and so much more silliness of this kind. Even cavemen, for whom fire was a life and death matter, with no other means at the time to replicate, were less concener that these people are.

Is the Toch being prepared as a Sacred Item?!

I think that the Torch is only the tip of the iceberg, it is the ICO that has gone mad. Their representatives are fêted around the world, put in best hotels, so many freebies etc etc…and so they create stupid scenarios and make such ridiculous demands that the countries hosting it from now on, risk of becoming bankrupt.

Where is the Olympic Spirit in that?! it was said that sportsmen will run with the Torch ( I don’t know about Paris, but in London) the headlines were made by Konnie Hoq, an ex Blue Peter presenter ( kids programme in BBC) also Denisse Van Outten and ex-TV AM ( from Chanel 4) presenter and a celebrity- both not connected with sport at ALL.
It goes without saying that grande gestures of this kind always end in laughter (or tears), LOL and no wonder that London caps were smiling.
What will happen in USA and Australia…

Now, Has the torch has become Too Hot To Handle.

[Valentin]

""Naturally the leftwing world was fully behind the la manif."

Naturally?? HAH ! Charles, we have here, for the first time in history, leftwing people demonstrating against A COMMUNIST DICTATORSHIP ! :)

And while we're at that, I'm still waiting for a manif against Cuba...

(oh and I must protest at R.Marchenoir calling leftwing "liberals"; they're so NOT liberals - nothing to do with Montesquieu, Adam Smith, Hayek, or even F.D. Roosevelt)

[Valentin]

"Who can afford to not buy Chinese products? Toys, clothing and electronics"

A figure of speech in a well turned post. The reality is that lots of people avoid buying Chinese, ask where clothes are made, chase the "made in" label on the back of the products... to such extent, that a score of companies export their China-made products to Singapore or Malaysia and put in an extra nail, just to be able to call them "made in Singapore" - or at least "further assembled in".

(the vegetarian part isn't absurd either - transporting giant volumes of goods half round the globe is almost as polluting as a new Chinese coal factory)

[Valentin]

"Yes, I agree - help please? I think it's something to do with having one's own SITE"

One can create a free account on Flickr.com or other free photo sites, then link photos here via tinyurl.com (thus the link will be short and the real site address remain private)

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

passions are running high here on the board and the french are back in the streets where they belong, in their natural habitat.

i am amused that Terry finally has located Tibet on the map and is now planning to take his water bucket to the torch parade.

Nick, Robert M., Dot and Lily expressed either full or limited reservations about these protests for which each should be commended.

but the person whose opinion i'd really value at this juncture is Little Big Horn. now there's a guy who could really turn this debate into a free-for-all, or, preferably, befuddle everyone into silence.

as a practicing taoist/buddhist, i don't like chinese treatment of tibet and its culture. but it started forty-five years ago, folks. dousing the olympic flame now won't turn back the clock and may actually cause the chinese to crack down harder on tibetan dissidents.

but would leftist parisians, or Terry, give a shit about this (if they could even imagine it)? i doubt it.

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

"Paris rediscovered its sense of revolt for the occasion.' Joffrin, quoted by CB

isn't it interesting how much self-satisfaction is available with so little effort, when the stakes are zero and you get to go home for dinner?

[Monika]

I simply have to cheer to the French and British demonstrators. Even though this might change nothing in China's policy it shows its despotic leaders that their propaganda effort going with the OG is in vain.
Furthermore it shows to the leaders in the respective countries what the people think about this issue. And to the IOC btw.
What would have been the alternative? To stay silent and show China that no one cares about Tibet? No. It may be that you can't do much to stop injustice but at least you can stand up and name it as what it is.

[Robert Marchenoir]

Valentin:

"I must protest at R.Marchenoir calling leftwing liberals."

Isn't that funny? In English, the word "liberal" has the very opposite meaning it has in French.

An American liberal supports high taxes, big government, welfare programs, gender studies and multicultural sensitivity training; he watches French movies, quotes from Derrida, drives a Toyota Prius and thinks Everything is Bush's Fault.

In short, he is a communist scumbag -- ahem! pardon my French, I mean he's on the left-hand side of the political spectrum.

Whereas in France, a "libéral" ranks somewhere between a child molester and a nazi. Which is quite understable since he eats a working poor for breakfast, kills a dozen polar bears while driving a 4-ton SUV to his executive suite, and proceeds with ringing his pal Sarkozy's mobile, to make sure the industrial relations code is shredded to bits before the end of the day.

This slight discrepancy explains a lot of the bad feelings between France and Anglo-Saxony.

As for...

"Lots of people avoid buying Chinese, ask where clothes are made..."

I've never seen, heard or read anything to that effect in France. On the other hand, I see many signs that people are frantically searching for the lowest prices.

Besides, how do you avoid buying Chinese? By asking the salesman to dismantle the computer you covet before your eyes, and checking that not a single chip or bit of plastic is made in China?

[Terry]

Azloon:

"as a practicing taoist/buddhist"

When are you going to stop practicing and actually become a taoist/buddhist?

I didnt suddenly find Tibet. I saw the Dali Lama speak here 2 or 3 years ago. And I have spoken out numerous times against communist china and other totalitarian governments.

So, no one is supposed to protest because China might crack down on Tibet? What nonsense, Azloon. I am surprised. Martin Luther King shouldnt have protested because whites might crack down more on blacks? No one should have protested the South African apartheid regime because the government might clamp down on the "kaffers"? Is that as far as you're thinking takes you?

I dont like to see violence. Sitting quiet only allows the totalitarian government to keep on doing what it's doing though.

[Sam Young]

Wow, so many comments. I thought i would never got to the comments box to add mine, by far the most interesting.
Being of a logical bent, here are 9 reasons why Paris Makes a Stupid Point.
--------
1) Professional athletes are driven by love of their sport. They have a rough time (high risk, weekend traveling, uncertain finances). Why should they pay a higher price than other members of society?
2) Want to Boycott? Ok, then, let’s go the whole way. Let’s not buy another more products from or sell any more products to China (including Government debt). No-one is seriously suggesting this. So, once again, why single out athletes for punishment?
3) Human Rights are not universal. They are linked to place and time. Bear in mind that the concept of Human Rights goes hand in glove with the concept of the Individual. We, here in Europe and the USA are the legatees of the Renaissance / Enlightenment, leading to the famous “I think, therefore I am” from Descartes. Africa, Asia and the Middle East did not have these movements. In the particular case of China, therefore, is it not reasonable to suggest that their idea of human rights is not the same as ours. When I hear the human rights brigade, I see arrogant people, incapable of accepting that other people, in other countries, do not think like them. Who are we to impose our ideas of human rights?
4) Look at what is commonplace here in Europe; to wit: pupils openly mocking their teachers (my son’s school report card the other day explicitly states that it not the teachers’ job to discipline their pupils); court sanctions are perceived to be excessively lenient; a group of eco-nutters in Ireland who, for the past 8 years, have been blocking the construction of a much-needed motorway leading out of Dublin. In other words, there are too many of these so called “human rights” in Europe. Perhaps we could learn something from China?
5) Who are these protesters? A handful of Tibetans and then the usual cretins. This week, it’s Tibet, last week, it was Iraq, next week, it will be Genetically Modified Organisms (against them, of course; these people are against everything). Where do they find the time? Why aren’t they working on a Monday afternoon. I understand now why these people don’t work; what with their intensive protesting program, they quite simply don’t have time to work. If these people were in charge, we would still be living in caves. Morons, every last one of them.
6) What evidence is there to suggest that protesting will change anything? Can anyone really suggest that this protesting is going to result in something positive for Tibet. Why, it could make things even worse since China could refuse to be browbeaten into pliancy.
7) Perhaps bringing the games to China could actually be a force for positive change in the country?
8) Do we even know what we are talking about? Are there thousands of China and Tibet experts out there? Maybe Tibet does belong to China.
9) I would rather, any day of the week, be governed by Chinese Officials than by the self-righteous flag-waving hooligans, canting their fluent gibberish (btw, to all you non-native speakers of English out there, please feel the beauty of the English language as in “canting their fluent gibberish”).

Thanks for reading the rant, and free China now!

[Sam Young]

Wow, so many comments. I thought i would never got to the comments box to add mine, by far the most interesting.
Being of a logical bent, here are 9 reasons why Paris Makes a Stupid Point.
--------
1) Professional athletes are driven by love of their sport. They have a rough time (high risk, weekend traveling, uncertain finances). Why should they pay a higher price than other members of society?
2) Want to Boycott? Ok, then, let’s go the whole way. Let’s not buy another more products from or sell any more products to China (including Government debt). No-one is seriously suggesting this. So, once again, why single out athletes for punishment?
3) Human Rights are not universal. They are linked to place and time. Bear in mind that the concept of Human Rights goes hand in glove with the concept of the Individual. We, here in Europe and the USA are the legatees of the Renaissance / Enlightenment, leading to the famous “I think, therefore I am” from Descartes. Africa, Asia and the Middle East did not have these movements. In the particular case of China, therefore, is it not reasonable to suggest that their idea of human rights is not the same as ours. When I hear the human rights brigade, I see arrogant people, incapable of accepting that other people, in other countries, do not think like them. Who are we to impose our ideas of human rights?
4) Look at what is commonplace here in Europe; to wit: pupils openly mocking their teachers (my son’s school report card the other day explicitly states that it not the teachers’ job to discipline their pupils); court sanctions are perceived to be excessively lenient; a group of eco-nutters in Ireland who, for the past 8 years, have been blocking the construction of a much-needed motorway leading out of Dublin. In other words, there are too many of these so called “human rights” in Europe. Perhaps we could learn something from China?
5) Who are these protesters? A handful of Tibetans and then the usual cretins. This week, it’s Tibet, last week, it was Iraq, next week, it will be Genetically Modified Organisms (against them, of course; these people are against everything). Where do they find the time? Why aren’t they working on a Monday afternoon. I understand now why these people don’t work; what with their intensive protesting program, they quite simply don’t have time to work. If these people were in charge, we would still be living in caves. Morons, every last one of them.
6) What evidence is there to suggest that protesting will change anything? Can anyone really suggest that this protesting is going to result in something positive for Tibet. Why, it could make things even worse since China could refuse to be browbeaten into pliancy.
7) Perhaps bringing the games to China could actually be a force for positive change in the country?
8) Do we even know what we are talking about? Are there thousands of China and Tibet experts out there? Maybe Tibet does belong to China.
9) I would rather, any day of the week, be governed by Chinese Officials than by the self-righteous flag-waving hooligans, canting their fluent gibberish (btw, to all you non-native speakers of English out there, please feel the beauty of the English language as in “canting their fluent gibberish”).

Thanks for reading the rant, and free China now!

[Mary Fernandez]

I'm sure San Francisco will be interesting. It is a city of professional protestors who'll lie down in the middle of Market Street for absolutely no reason at all. Once a month, they'll shut down traffic during rush hour just to protest cars. They've been practicing for this all week. (Oh, if Mark Twain were alive to visit this city just one more time!)

The only wrinkle in this is that San Fran is a very heavily Chinese immigrant/Sino-American populated city. Will they be pro-China or pro-Tibet?

Will any of this protesting amount to anything? Nope. It's about as helpful as one of those aid concerts. It makes the participants feel like they did something without making much of a sacrifice. Everyone pats themselves on the back and the cause remains for the next year.

China will never free Tibet. If it did, there are 10 or 15 other less peaceful (Muslim) provinces that are already making trouble about breaking free. These Olympic protesters are irksome gnats compared to that problem.

[Lily]

"the french are back in the streets where they belong, in their natural habitat." (Azloon)

:)

I heard Americans climbed up their bridges - their natural habitat?

[Lily]

Valentin,

Thank you for the free photo site/tinyurl.com-link info!

[Romain]

The only wrinkle in this is that San Fran is a very heavily Chinese immigrant/Sino-American populated city. Will they be pro-China or pro-Tibet? Mary Fernandez.
A Chinese is always pro-Chinese Nation, regardless of the government's positions. Even former boat people and their children support China's Olympic propaganda.
Human rights issues is a remote concept, good for European loons.

[Lily]

Interesting account of a San Francisco torch bearer (against protests, obviously):

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/04/08/intv.torch.zia.cnn

[Valentin]

Robert Marchenoir:
"I've never seen, heard or read anything to that effect in France."

I know you walk, buy, and know a lot of people, Robert (probably un échantillon représentatif, while at that).
It's just that -- you know, you've got to read the papers too, from time to time :)

(try and look at the back of any electrical or electronic device, you'll certainly find some "Assembled in Malaysia, further assembled in China"; I won't even mention Apple who says "Designed in California, USA, assembled in China")

[Ros]

Azloon: There seems to be quite a lot of movement in San Francisco too...........

[Ros]

Valentin: Thanks for the photo advice - shall endeavour to try it out.

[richard jones]

Interesting to see Valentin speaking for the buying habits of a whole nation.
I have never seen an Apple product labelled as Valentin suggests - perhaps a reference to abate my myopia.
To Sam Young - I thought it was 'cantoning their fluent gibberish'.
Anyway, the Olympic spirit is dead, bring on the MacDonald games which will have events like the three-legged race and spot the American Idiot (sorry Idol). Bear Stearn will be the official sponsor for these Games and they will take place every 4 months in Pensacola or in case of too many demonstrations in the secret vaults of Fort Knox.

[Robert Marchenoir]

Valentin: you are high on irony and low on understanding.

My point is that if you wanted to avoid buying Chinese, you'd have to live naked in the middle of the woods, with maybe a stale copy of Libération to protect your head from the rain (and even that is debatable).

On the issue of Frenchmen actually trying not to buy Chinese products -- as opposed to doing it successfully, your attempt at disqualifying my testimony is puerile. In my book, one's man testimony is worth as much as another one's.

If we go beyond anecdotal evidence and hearsay, maybe you could try and come up with the name of a mainstream political party, association or union who has ever called for such a boycott (Tibetan exiles and fringe groups don't count).

There might certainly be some individuals, with time on their hands and money in their pockets, who pester sales clerks in order to weed Chinese products out of their trolleys. It's just that I've never come across one.

And I doubt you'd find many of them among the hordes of people shifting through second-hand clothes in charity shops or street markets, queuing up for free foodstuff at the Restaurants du coeur, or buying essentials at hard-discount supermarkets.

The sort of people who consider mainstream hypermarkets, such as Carrefour and Auchan, as luxury outlets way above their means.

[dot king]

Sam Young - I know they aren't fooling anyone, but Olympic athletes are amateurs. That's supposed to be the whole point - or one of them.
You know, for the love of sport, the honour of participing; all those neat values.

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

Sam Young, thanks so much for stating the not-so-obvious. the truth, as you present it in rant form, is hard to 'take in' when one is having so much fun prancing around in the street and believing it is actually making a difference. incredibly, these folks (Terry?) don't seem to know or care that the Dali Lama doesn't support them, a guy who knows a bit about the subject .

the next time protestors feel like going to the streets to extinguish the olympic flame, i would suggest they instead consider donating blood to their local blood bank, or some other civic/humanitarian act. they then would actually be doing something useful which requires a modicum of sacrifice, instead of smugly adding to the costs of police protection and eroding further france's pouvoir d'echat (and in such a disgustingly self-congratulatory way).

Ros: SF is a' high multiple' of Paris in terms of public idiocy. don't use anything you see there as any indication of general american sentiment. Mary F. who lives across the SF Bay (in her own hippie enclave) can explain (and has) in further detail.

Terry, in the case of Taoism, my practice is occasional, but persistent. mastery is not the point, tho i appreciate your joke (i think i used the same one in a post last week about the french practicing communion).

BTW, Taoism is virtually unknown in present day China. just last night, I gave a beautiful illustrated copy of the Tao Te Ching to a chinese friend of mine here. she was fascinated by it, but had never heard of it (Mao destroyed Chinese culture). she did though have interesting comments about the original chinese characters which appear on each facing page.

"The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of the ten thousand things." (First verse of Tao)

if Journalism is the trumpet of the ten thousand things and this blog a daily diary of them, then Google (and the WWW) certainly is the Mother of the Ten Trillion Things.

but the effect is the same. always will be.

[Terry]

Here is one reason why Sam Young makes a stupid point.

"3) Human Rights are not universal. They are linked to place and time. In the particular case of China, therefore, is it not reasonable to suggest that their idea of human rights is not the same as ours. When I hear the human rights brigade, I see arrogant people, incapable of accepting that other people, in other countries, do not think like them. Who are we to impose our ideas of human rights?"

I would turn that around, Sam. What right do to chinese communist thugs with guns have to impose their rather sadistic notion of human rights on the chinese people without their consent. The Chinese communist government was not voted into office. They do not govern with the consent of the chinese people. In China, you do what they say or you die or are imprisoned. Who are they to tell the chinese people that they have no rights whatsoever?

Human rights are not universal, Sam? Human rights should be dictated by time and space? If that were the case, the Holocaust was perfectly acceptable morally. Who were we to impose our notions on Nazi Germany and judge them? Human rights are limited to geography, right? Slavery in America was morally justified too? After all, human rights for blacks are not universal under your theory. They were only free in Africa. But in America, it's ok that they were slaves because human rights are not universal. Who was anyone to tell us that was wrong? I know you dont actually believe the holocaust or slavery were acceptable behaviors, Sam. But that is where your notion that human rights are not universal takes you.

In a world where there are no objective values of truth or justice, you would be right though.

BTW: You dont think the chinese government has a different idea of human rights? Why dont you move there and write a letter to the editor complaining about the government. I am sure you'll get a good, swift and thorough lesson in Chinese "human rights".

[dot king]

"the next time protestors feel like going to the streets to extinguish the olympic flame," Azloon

the protesters went on to the street to protest, I make no comment about that here, but it was the chinese police (the little men in turquoise tracksuits trying to look like athletes and not highly trained bash-squads) who extinguished the Olympic flame - unless you were being figurative . . .

[Valentin]

Robert,
Irony can be taken in two different ways, one needs to have the power to raise above what might seem offensive (prendre du recul, hein!) and go to the core of the problem.

Or the core is this:

"My point is that if you wanted to avoid buying Chinese, you'd have to live naked in the middle of the woods"

I know. This is exactly what I contested the whole time. You don't realize how many people avoid buying Chinese (and successfully so). A study by the Economist (or was it Capital ?...) was saying that the impact on companies was so important that they were going far to disguise Chinese production as, well, ANYTHING else.

Unfortunately, especially in the United States, there are fields were Chinese have downright full monopoly and in those cases, you're right, you just don't have an option.
I think we should try to stop thinking exclusively in terms of price (for instance, at the moment, not ONE chinese device I possess is reliable, unfortunately).

[Valentin]

Richard,

I'm not speaking for any nation, and I don't express my own opinions, as Robert does ("I think", "I doubt"). No, me, I SAW that information in an economical paper last year, and it drew my attention.

"I have never seen an Apple product labelled as Valentin suggests"

As far as I know ALL APPLE PRODUCTS are made in China (read that in SVM Mac too).

Actually, for most brands, only the highend models are still made in Japan, Finland, Germany, US...

Here, for your reading pleasure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China#Marketing_significance
http://www.neteco.com/54627-ipod-made-in-china-apple-reconnait-des-dysfonctionnements.html

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

[the protesters went on to the street to protest, I make no comment about that here, but it was the chinese police (the little men in turquoise tracksuits trying to look like athletes and not highly trained bash-squads) who extinguished the Olympic flame - unless you were being figurative . . .] Dot

thanks Dot for allowing me to make a point which i neglected to make in my previous twenty or so posts on this subject.

Why in the hell does france cede police jurisdiction to foreign nationals as they did in this instance, and previously in the instance of Khadafi when his motorcade, protected by Libyan police escorts, made a mess of downtown paris?

Don't they believe that they are responsible for public order in their own country? or have their become so discouraged over the years of public strikes in their ability to maintain order that they just shrug their shoulders in these situations and say, why not let those other guys screw things up?

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

Terry -- you critique of Sam lacks historical perspective and contains some specious comparisons as well.

nazi germany, or stalinist russia were not comparable to present day china. china actually has lawyers, hurray, hurray (could a plaintiff's bar be next?). and some limited forms of popular voting.

you obviously know that american slavery persisted for more than a hundred years while we were proclaiming that 'all men are created equal, endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights" (which we learned from our french friends, minus the God part).

there are quirky realities in the world which take time to work out. political rights and free speech in china are among them. but work out they will --- over time.

our puerile effort to embarrass them into making changes that americans weren't willing to make for 150 years vis a vis slavery is an exercise in futility.

but if it makes you feel better, go for it.

as an alternative, how about organizing a car wash at your local shopping center with the proceeds going towards protection of the panda habitat. that might actually have tangible results.

[Lily]

Re: Human Rights/Terry versus Sam Young

Human Rights are universal. The main problem with criticising China’s Human Rights violations is a communication problem. The debate isn’t about throwing bombs on Beijing or about massive trade embargos; we talk about the symbolism of the Olympic torch. I doubt the Chinese will understand ‘Western’ protest. They will likely get angry and dismiss it all as stupid, without changing their political course.

Since no world leader is eager to seriously damage China for Human Rights’ noble cause and minor violent street action will not get Tibet anywhere either, I believe that the only way towards change would be to ideally learn as much as possible about China (culture, traditions, language, history), to inform Chinese expatriates and have them take the message/truth about their government back to China. I don’t believe in effective UN sanctions as long as there will be a huge economic interest to not harm China.

[Lily]

Re: Human Rights

PS: I almost forgot, something more should also be done against child labour, including child soldiers and child prostitution, and against torture and capital punishment.

[Sam Young]

Terry,

Hi, i would like to turn around what you turned around, and suggest that since the things you mentioned actually happened, with (that old chestnut) Nazi Germany belonging to the recent past, this precisely underscores my point: namely, that Human Rights are flexible, moving concepts up for grabs. Germany, a civilized country that produced mathematicians, philosophers and artists. And yet, look what happened. You are putting theory before practice. Like an architect putting faulty plans on paper and then complaining about reality when his house falls down. I don’t see the point in putting theory before practice. What “is” inevitably wins out what “should be”, and that is what we have to live with.

To fast forward to the current day and perhaps less emotional subjects than slavery and the concentration camps, have a chat with some men from say, the Cameroon; they quite simply do not see what is wrong with a 60-year old man marrying a 20-year girl, provided he has the financial means to do so. You can try and argue your point with him until you are blue in the face. It's pointless; they just don’t understand your problem.

On a more abstract level, I would maintain that since Death, the only thing certain in life, is not experienced in the same way depending on time and place, how can we then reasonably assert that there be some kind of immutable universal set of values embodying a concept that we refer to as Human Rights. In a nutshell, i find your riposte, albeit welcome, rather disingenuous.

[Sam Young]

Error:
".....Like an architect putting faulty plans on paper and then complaining about GRAVITY when his house falls down. I don’t see the point in putting theory before practice....".

[richard jones]

Valentin,

Your Wikipedia refers to products labelled 'designed in California' and as having no other marking, which is what my iPOD (pinched from my granddaughter) has on it and no reference at all to China. This is why I asked the question. No mention of China at all is the moot point, your translucination of Wikipedia missed that.
Anyway, won't be long now. World recession will stop London's Olympics. Fuel at €$Sfr(new oil currency) 300 will stop any athletes getting there and the carbon emissions from the crowds will break that agreement everybody made - cept GBUSA - in Toyota.
We'll probably have to start a world war instead. The French bomb is feminine so it will be wearing a veil of course. The British bomb won't work because Gordon forgot to pay that month's mortgage on the launching site (it's in Bognor - Station Street 34A) and the USA will have given their's back to the Red Indians.
The Chinese bomb has been torched, leaving only Russia to Putin a detonator and blow us all away, unless the Israeli/Irani alliance light theirs up first.

[Valentin]

"our puerile effort to embarrass them into making changes that americans weren't willing to make for 150 years vis a vis slavery is an exercise in futility."

I would call that a rather pessimistic view of life and world. CB is right when he says that the Olympics are meant as a showcase for the Chinese regime, just as it was the case with the Moscow Olympics nearly 30 years ago.
There were protests back then, and there are protests now.
They didn't provoke obvious changes back then, but together with the economical and military pressure, they helped bring the end of the communist dictatorships in Europe.

ALL those efforts mattered: boycotting Moscow Olympics; the programmes from BBC World Service, VoA, Radio Free Europe etc. The economical embargos. The political isolation. Reagan' Strategic Defense Initiative. Everything counted to bring USSR and its dominions to their knees, and free nearly half a billion people.

I had a Chinese workmate once, and I was appalled by his stubborn patriotism in defending the Chinese regime (while living in France and enjoying our freedoms). His animosity towards Western governments was almost as strong as that of my arab friends (French nationals always speaking in terms of "us" and "them" - brainwashed by fundamentalist communist and nationalist propaganda).

That's how it is, with human rights. Most 3rd world people don't even understand them, let alone fight for them. The very notion of Freedom and its implications in every day life is such a HUGE thing when you're not born here and used to it like to air and water, that it's incomprehensible for the 3rd worlder brought up in a mentality of powerlessness and submission. And with governments such as China's or Syria's left in peace, the situation would NEVER change.
That's why we here need to demonstrate, boycott and be as annoying and embarrassing as possible. The Olympic spirit has nothing to do with China's present-day masters.

[Fernandez]

You won't be able to buy a mocha frappachino anywhere in the city, that's for sure. (Tower Records has long since gone out of business.)

I wonder how much Starbucks loses when all their baristas take the day off to fight 'the man'? Especially when they do it so often?

I do believe in 'universal' human rights. Unfortunely, what is defined as a "Human Right" has gotten so broad as to be meaningless these days. (Under the Geneva Conventions enemy prisoners of war are entitled to so many ounces of loose tobacco daily. Not cigarettes - loose tobacco. In the 90s, during Kosovo, it was quite a scramble to find the stuff to be in compliance. [I'm waiting for the lawsuits for having given former POWs lung cancer. They're coming, just wait.])

Life, liberty, food, water, shelter, freedom from torture are all human rights. Tobacco and free abortions are not.

[Terry]

Sam:

"In a nutshell, i find your riposte, albeit welcome, rather disingenuous."

Do you usually welcome disengenuous ripostes?

"Human Rights are flexible, moving concepts up for grabs"

Not really. Basic rights are universal. The right to life, liberty and property come to mind. The right to consent to it's government is another. This is not a matter of theory. It's an expectation that everyone on this planet has for themselves. We may quibble around the edges with issues like the "right to health care" etc. But the fundamental rights are universal and self-evident.

Are these immutable human rights? Yes. Just because everyone lived under monarchies in the 1400s did not mean that those were moral governments back then. Human rights were trampled by people who could arm and organize themselves to assert there dominance over others. Just because it was common did not make it moral. Human rights have not changed over time. Our tolerance for their deprivation has.

But you skillfully (perhaps unskillfully) ignored my point. You said who are we to determine what human rights are in China. My unanswered question to you is: What gives communists with guns the right to determine what constitutes human rights in China?

[Valentin]

Richard,

Then you've been simply fooled by Apple. "Designed" does not mean "made in". Take this advice from me, which I don't give in a spirit of contradiction: if you ever care about where a good was produced, never believe anything else but "made in" or "assembled in".
You probably didn't buy your iPod in France. You can look at this link - just go down the screen and look at the small writing on the ipod's back.
http://www.pcinpact.com/articles/print_a.php?id=89

(or do a search on Google, you'll see that all Apple factories are located in China - and employing slave work to make your pretty little iPod)

[Fernandez]

AZLOON -

I think all my hippies climbed down from their old growth trees to join their compatriots across the bay bridge. It's just me and the Squirrels. The nuts have left.

The only fecal matter being flung from on high is actually coming from birds! :-) What a relief.

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

[ALL those efforts mattered: boycotting Moscow Olympics} Valentin

ok V, then lets boycott the beijing olympics. that does matter, and perhaps would actually be effective. Have you seen any serious calls for that in France? doubt it. haven't here.

so we (i include americans with the french) take the easy way out -- send unemployed students into the streets where they have spent half their life anyway (at least in france) and let them party like it's 1999 (see photo above).

we are so deeply in bed with the Chinese we have lost any moral authority we ever had. harassing the torch runners is like a fly on an elephant's ass.

and what is all this caca about china and moscow 'showcasing' the olympics? as though the u.s. didn't do the same thing in 1984 in los angeles (when the USSR boycotted). that was the most over-the-top, jingoistic display of uber-patriotism i have ever witnessed. i have heard than many observers outside the u.s. felt like barfing at this 'showcasing' spectacle.

i am not as pessimistic, or relativistic as Sam Young because i do welcome the day when china recognizes personal freedom as a right of it's citizens (and believe it's inevitable).

your and my disagreement is about effective ways to encourage that development from outside.

[Terry]

Azloon, Rob Furlong or whoever you are:

"Terry -- you critique of Sam lacks historical perspective and contains some specious comparisons as well.

nazi germany, or stalinist russia were not comparable to present day china. china actually has lawyers, hurray, hurray (could a plaintiff's bar be next?). and some limited forms of popular voting."

Nazi germany had lawyers too. And judges. Little good that did for it's German jewish citizens. In fact, here's a good video of one nazi judge in action.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aNi5256dhvM

The presence of lawyers is a poor indicator that human rights are present.

As for "limited voting", you seem to be taking a page from a former sophist here who championed Cuba's "one party democracy" as some beacon of light.

"there are quirky realities in the world which take time to work out. political rights and free speech in china are among them. but work out they will --- over time."

Im not sure I would call repression of 1 billion or so people a quirky reality. It may be to some sitting in Arizona. As Valentin points out though, Azloon, these things just dont "work themselves out over time" on their own. Santa does not drop voting rights down the chimney. The Easter Bunny does not hop around with freedom of speech in his basket. Totalitarian systems have to be challenged to change. Slavery in the US did not just end or work itself out. It took a civil war followed by another 100 years of blacks getting their skulls cracked just trying to get a sandwich at a lunch counter or sit at the front of a bus. It was these acts of challenging the system (and often the resulting violence against these people trying to challenge the system) that eventually ended slavery/segregation. My historical perspective tells me that repressive governments do not change until forced or shamed into it. A point Valentin makes very well.

And that is the point here. So, China's torch gets doused. The statement means a lot more than the "harm" caused. I find it very telling that these blue suited gentlemen are paramilitary. That tells me quite a bit about the Chinese government. THAT"S how important the symbol of the torch and the Olympics are to China.

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

["the french are back in the streets where they belong, in their natural habitat." (Azloon)

:)

I heard Americans climbed up their bridges - their natural habitat] Lily

Lily, not sure what bridges you refer to? a recent news story i missed?

apropos bridges

my two young sons (5 and 3) used to play "up the bridge, down the bridge' as they stood together at the toilet, urinating 'ensemble,' attempting to gain supremacy.

a video of it would surely be on youtube if it had been available back then. with music (handel's water music?)

maybe the 'bridge thing' started with this early american (?) experience.

any others OTT enough to comment on their young children's toilet behavior?

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

OK Terry, so do something about it.

BTW, did you know that the chinese have lived, uninterrupted, under massive repression for 5000 years?

do you understand that not all chinese want what you want for them?

the limited popular vote i referred to is not of the cuban variety. but you would have had to be keeping up with developments in china to know about it.

i don't have time to educate you.

have a great time at the douse the flame party.

i hope you break he pinata.

[Valentin]

"as though the u.s. didn't do the same thing in 1984 in los angeles (when the USSR boycotted)."

You actually ARE relativizing things that don't deserve it.
So if the Los Angeles games were a showcase for freedom and human rights, is it the same thing as being a showcase for totalitarianism ?
Us manifesting for freedom is the same thing as the thousands of Chinese or Iranians brought by force to "demonstrate" against the Demonic Dalai Lama or the Devilish US?

That's why I always say leftwing are losing their landmarks.
I'm the first to bring up the cultural specificities of each country, against western commandos come to evangelize the savages to our own way of life.
But in that precise case, freedom against dictatorship, there's no place for cultural or moral relativism.

Yes the Western economies are in too deep with the Chinese. China is the derivative product of real-life economics - and Nike or Apple are the hedge funds. All those at odds with western rules (protecting the employees, the consumers, the freedoms), go to China, where little of these rules and right are enforced - when they exist ! - to make easy money.
But I repeat that every bit counts, against an abusive regime.

[Valentin]

"china actually has lawyers, hurray, hurray (could a plaintiff's bar be next?). and some limited forms of popular voting"

Well yes, other communist dictatorships had lawyers and judges too. They all acted in agreement with the Party's policies. And when there were none, with the corruption money involved. And if one happened to have a conscience and actually believe himself a free judge in his mind, the Party was there to show him the way out - of the office, and sometimes in - to the prison.

[Lily]

“That's how it is, with human rights.[…]
it's incomprehensible for the 3rd worlder brought up in a mentality of powerlessness and submission. And with governments such as China's or Syria's left in peace, the situation would NEVER change.
That's why we here need to demonstrate, boycott and be as annoying and embarrassing as possible.” (Valentin)

One, if I had said this you would have labelled me as 68arde. :)
--- especially if I had replaced the “3rd worlder” with “kids” and “governments such as China’s or Syria’s” with “authoritarian parents or teachers such as…”.

Two, how much do you know about China? I admit that I know little about it, but I have a feeling that you cannot explain all that can be said about this vast country by looking at the governing regime alone. Do you really believe that Western methods/noise will leave an impression?

Three, I don’t consciously and systematically boycott Chinese products, although I was impressed when we wanted to rent both a piano and a saxophone last summer and went to a huge music store where we were told that instrument rentals were no longer available and that they were now selling good quality Chinese instruments. I didn’t like the idea, went on to another shop where I heard the same stories. We found other solutions, and didn’t buy Chinese instruments. I have been to another shop recently to inquire again about piano rentals because I had seen an ad in the door. Before the shop keeper could get started, I explained to him that I DID NOT want to buy a Chinese piano. He looked at me, startled, asking: “WHY?” – It had been his wish to first introduce me to his Chinese bargains… -

[Monika]

[I would turn that around, Sam. What right do to chinese communist thugs with guns have to impose their rather sadistic notion of human rights on the chinese people without their consent. The Chinese communist government was not voted into office. They do not govern with the consent of the chinese people. In China, you do what they say or you die or are imprisoned. Who are they to tell the chinese people that they have no rights whatsoever? - Terry]

Hum? What happened? Wow! I do agree with Terry!

To Sam:
We all know that in history and some states they didn't or don't share the same view concerning human rights as we do. (Well, obviously, if they did there would be no problem with human rights violations). Does this imply that they have been or are right in what they do?
I admit that in some places they might have different values that are not in compliance with our understanding of human rights.
Well, I have heard about some people who believe that the world was created in six days and think that Darwin's theories are utter nonsense. They may not understand our point of view on this issue but does it make them to be right?
Following your logic everything would be understandable and acceptable. Every brutality and crime. Imagine I would commit a crime and then invoke my different and personal understanding of what is right and what is wrong ...

[dot king]

According to what I've heard on the radio and read in the Times (another French correpondent) the Olympic torch is considered to be "the property" of the host country. That is why the Chinese accompanying "runners" were present - that at least, is down to the rules of The Games.
That these runners were (we are informed by the media) specially imported, highly trained riot police, disguised as athletes, is another matter. But it was these riot-police/runners in turquoise tracksuits who decided that the flame should be doused and taken by 'bus through Paris. The decision was theirs.
Sam Young is right, IMO, to say that we can't expect China to compliantly accept our notions of Human Rights (we hardly practice them ourselves, if we're honest).

To keep the argument away from the Nazi/Communist one which is repeatedly aired, let's just think instead of the FARC. Recently President Sarkozy appealed to their humanity and asked them to release Ingrid Bétancourt. Did he really think that a group that kidnaps people and holds them for years in what we would call inhuman conditions, can have the same idea of humanity and rights that he has and that can be appealed to?
In some societies girl children are killed at birth, widows are burned on their husband's funeral pyre, children are sold into slave labour or prostitution. It's obvious that these societies won't understand our definition of Human Rights.

To "go forth" and expect to impose our values on societies that don't share them, in this case China, not a Third World country, but at least Second world and catching up, is a return to missionary colonialism.
Olympic Games? Boycott of Chinese-made goods? Small potatoes beside all that (don't amount to a hill o' beans for our USA cousins).

[Terry]

Azloon:

"OK Terry, so do something about it."

I am. Im not eating any more egg rolls until China has free and unfettered elections.

"do you understand that not all chinese want what you want for them?"

I know Chinese communist leaders dont want free elections and freedom of speech. Other than that, I cant imagine too many Chinese that dont want to vote for their leaders, own private property and be able to speak freely.

If Charles is getting a junket to China, he should be careful. I have read stories about the chinese secret service intimidating reporters. What a swell place, Azloon.

[Sam Young]

Monika / Terry (ladies first quand même!),

If a Thai (national or non-national) insults the King, s/he gets put into jail. Seen from here, that seems a bit comical. Seen from a Thai jail, much less so. You could not commit a crime and then use your different and personal understanding of what is right and what is wrong quite simply because the law of the land applies to all in that land.

I can only repeat what I said: it is not up to us to tell others what their Human Rights are. Obviously, being European myself, I know that individualism, freedom of expression, democracy, etc. works for me; but I cannot say what works for others. And I cannot agree that human rights as set down by Europeans are universal or unchanging.

In this particular case, it is up to the Chinese to decide for themselves. And decide they will. For example, just last month (March 2008), the National People's Congress of China passed a law to take effect in October that legalizes private property and gives it equal status to public property, just like here (obviously this wasn’t reported here in the left-leaning media, because it doesn’t suit them; it’s so much more comfortable to see China as a nasty monster). Another example; even the official statements of the Chinese Labor Office acknowledge unrest amongst workers. As a final example, I was reading about some people in a Chinese city (I can’t remember the name) protesting about an intended project to run an airborne metro line through their neighborhood, just like the NIMBYs here in the West. So, who knows, maybe in 20 to 30 years, China will have the same understanding of Human Rights as we do. Maybe. Or not. It is up to them to decide. Finger-wagging and hectoring from the West with lectures about Human Rights lead nowhere.

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

[But I repeat that every bit counts] Valentin

i am sorry, V, you're wrong. these futile gestures don't 'count.'

they are about western impotence in the face of the monster that we are feeding.

and, as such, quite pitiable.

[Maggie G]

Very interesting discussion. Terry is making some very good points, but then so is Azloon. Valentin too.

But to go back to the starting point, I don't think these protests are about human rights in China, but about more freedom for Tibetans.

Yes, maybe if people protest it will help push China towards human rights. Eventually, China will improve.

But Tibet is a small country with a small population. I fear that China will have plenty of time to wipe out the Tibetans before human rights arrive in China.

I think if people want to manifest for Tibetans, they should be very careful, because there is a huge risk that the whole thing will backfire.

If the Olympics end up being a humiliation and disaster for China, even if that turns out to be a step along the road towards democracy and human rights for China, it will be an even bigger disaster for the Tibetans. They will be the ones who will suffer if China is humiliated.

They will suffer immediately, whereas human rights for China is still quite a distance down the road.

So the protesters should be thinking very carefully about what exactly thier actions are going to accomplish.

[Lily]

"Lily, not sure what bridges you refer to? a recent news story i missed?"

Azloon,

This was about activists who were attaching pro-Tibet banners high up on the Golden Gate Bridge; there were photos in the German media (censored in the US? ;).

[Valentin]

Lily:
"especially if I had replaced the “3rd worlder” with “kids” and “governments such as China’s or Syria’s” with “authoritarian parents or teachers"

Yes, of course :) You CANNOT not see the difference between real human rights, and what some call "children rights", though !
I will refer you to Fernandez's comment above.

As to how much I know about China, Lily, this is a recurrent critic people here (mostly women :) ) throw at me. It seems I sound kind of all-knowing :)
Well just read my post above. I had chinese workmates in the past, we worked together for years, they were very patriotic, very intelligent and very much into politics, and we had very nice debates.

Maggie,
Tibet's freedom? No, human rights for Tibetans, which are oppressed, purged, imprisoned and colonized just like Stalin did with Baltic states.

Azloon,
votre pessimisme est écoeurant.

[Maggie G]

Valentin,

I didn't say the protests were about "freedom for Tibetans", but about "more freedom for Tibetans", which basically means human rights.

But you missed the point of what I was saying, which was that protesting in favour of Tibetans could very easily result in a backlash against Tibetans by China.

No matter how good the intention or the theory, the result could be quite negative for Tibetans.

[vdoxon]

"Mourir pour le Tibet"?
Charles, I am shocked by your post. How could you consider what happened on Monday as a great success for France? I found all this fuss about Tibet pathetic. Right, China does not respect human rights in Tibet, and so, why mixing up with the Olympic Games? i do not want to defend China, because of its religious persections (Christians, mostly Catholic, Muslims..), prison camps, death peanlty etc.
But, I was horrified by the behaviuour of the self styled human rights movements, which take benefit of the Olympic games to promote themselves and to give moral lessons to everyone. Why interfering politics with the games?
No, Charles I am French, living in Paris for about 10 years, and I am deseperate to see all the ridiculous protests for the Olympic flame. These people think that protest will change, no it had shown to the world how ridiculous the French may be. It is arrogant, snob and patronizing.
Nous avons perdu le sens de la mesure "ne quid nimis". That is not the way to make progress for furthur causes..
Pathetic, really pathetic...shameful..
in ten years time, we will find them pathetic as we do now in May 68: a revolution because the boys wanted to go the girls dormitory...
protest for a flame..
silence should have been better

[Thanks, vdoxon, I take your point. I don't think I said it was a success for France. I was trying to convey the fact that many French, including Mayor Delanoe of Paris, did think that the protest had been useful -- unlike Britain, where it was seen more in the way that you outline. CB]

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

[Azloon,
votre pessimisme est écoeurant.] Valentin

V, i love it when you talk to me like that !

btw, votre naïveté est à couper le souffle.

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

Terry,

sometimes you seem so bright and on top of things.

and occasionally, as now, you seem so naive and american.

you apparently have no sense of the recent history of china and the deprivation imposed on the population with the arrival of mao in 1950. lives and careers were destroyed, food was scarce, daily brainwashing was the order of the day, and life was truly miserable.

'free and unfettered elections,' which you want to crow about, are not the most important issue facing china. most chinese are just happy to have enough to eat, economic opportunity, a place of their own to live in, and freedom of association. and they are justifiably proud of their country's progress and accomplishments since the 'dog days' of Mao.

why don't you direct your yearning for free and unfettered elections towards Florida, and let China take its normal course toward a more free and open society?

Fortune cookie says:

A conclusion is simply the place where you got tired of thinking.

[Terry]

Sam:

"I can only repeat what I said: it is not up to us to tell others what their Human Rights are."

Again, is it ok that the Chinese communists with guns impose their notion on the Chinese people?

"It is up to them to decide."

How can the Chinese people "decide" Sam, when they cannot choose their own government? How can they "decide" when they get shot or jailed for speaking out against the communists? You seem to forget, or worse ignore, the fact that the Chicoms impose there totalitarian government by force. Or perhaps, you dont believe that China is a totalitarian government.

If we have no right to tell the Chinese what human rights are, we had no right to tell Nazi germany what they were, no right to speak up about Darfur, no right to intervene in Bosnia.

[dot king]

"btw, votre naïveté est à couper le souffle" Azloon

someone's been having French lessons
impressive :)

[Terry]

Dot King:

"In some societies girl children are killed at birth, widows are burned on their husband's funeral pyre, children are sold into slave labour or prostitution. It's obvious that these societies won't understand our definition of Human Rights."

So, are these behaviors morally right, Dot? Or are they just "eastern values" that we must accept as that country's right to determine it's own "human rights". As Monika aptly pointed out, the subjectivism you espouse leads to moral relativism. I believe that there is an objective definition of human rights. It's never ok to burn a women when her husband dies (suti). It's never okay to sell children into sexual slavery, no matter what country you're in. Under your "reasoning", the exterminations in Nazi Germany, darfur, Rawanda, Serbia etc would be me merely those countries properly exercising their prerogative to determine their own definition of human rights.

The notion that these countries do not understand right from wrong is rather paternalistic.

Charles’ article in the main news section:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3697392.ece

about the Olympic torch in Paris had drawn almost 200 comments containing some interesting points of view. IMO it is easy to follow the protestors’ reasoning along the defence of Human Rights. Voices against protests are more controversial, from pro-Chinese propaganda to reflected Western criticism. I have scanned the comments and copy-pasted a few that sounded interesting and not (?) propagandistic, to complement the ongoing debate (with some doubt that typepad & Charles will let it pass… it’s long.)

It is, however, impossible to know whether Chinese officials will hide behind “Jim’s” seemingly reasonable criticism or whether it is authentic…

1. OLYMPIC GAMES/NATIONALISM:

Does anyone really care what the Chinese people think or want? Do a poll if the western media bother to, I believe majority of the common Chinese people want a peaceful, enjoyable Olympic Games. (Timmy, London) –

In ancient times, the warring Greek states suspended their battles when they were attending the Games.
Let's have a truce this August between the communist regime and the activists. No protests and no human rights abuse, and just enjoy the healthy sporting competition. (Brien, Singapore)

The modern Olympics were never above nationalism. They were all about it. […] I was a writer of documentaries and articles on the Olympics for more than two decades, and the only universal truth I ever gleaned from them is that hypocracy reigns atop a trinity of three supporting vices: money, nationalism, and drugs. It has always been this way, and it always will be this way. (Mark, Washington)
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2. KNOWLEDGE/EXPERIENCE IN/WITH CHINA/TIBET:

I have to say that my opinion of China was of a backward, controlled, communist and repressive society based on the reporting of the media until that is I actually went there and worked.

The Chinese people are friendly and by far the most capatalistic people I have ever met. My dealings with the police (stayed to long for my visa) was one of politeness and helpfulness that stunned me.

In all my dealings with China I have to say that I am most impressed and frankly compared to the UK the Chinese regime is far better; at least you get what they say and are not lied to by greedy, corrupt politicians.

When comparing choice please remember that 80% of people in the UK wanted nothing to do with the Iraq war but our beloved democratic leader just ignored us. Also remember the EU constitution, France got to vote and said NO so the EU politicians simply changed the name to a treaty and said we don't need to ask your opinion.
(Joe, Edinburgh)

I find it amazing that so many people around the world have suddenly started to care about a dispute that has been largely ignored for the past half century; […] These people do not really care nor do they understand the problems and complications there. (Steve Williamson, Manchester)

To all you smug Westerners out there supporting Tibet by shouting and attacking innocent people over the weekend on Sunday and Monday in France, where were you when the West savagely infringed and attacked the countries of the East including China. What about the Opium Wars ? Does no one read history anymore in the UK or is all the history they really know about is football and the Spice girls ? How utterly useless and ignorant all of these Tibetan protesters are. (Brian Hall, London)

I've found most western protesters have NEARLY ZERO knowledge about China and Tibet, yet are shamelessly loud. (bobo, China)

To prove the point of bandwagon jumping if you use the social networking group "facebook" search for "Free Tibet "which delivers 500+ results for group realted to this. However type in " Free East Turkestan" (who have the same claim of indepedence) and only 3 results appear. Proof that "Free Tibet" is more of a trendy brand than a cause and people now very little about Cina and the issues (raymond, the norf, uk)

I have spent much time in Tibet (as a Tibetan Buddhist visitor), speak both Chinese and some Tibetan, and have watched the (sickening) video coverage of the riots [in Tibet] […] At the time of my visit to Lhasa in 2006, the Tibetan people seemed to have all the religious and economic freedom anyone could reasonably want (in complete contrast to the impression you'd get from the Western media) . They attended monasteries, teachings, and ceremonies, spoke their own language, many of them had successful businesses, etc. While I have not visited since 2006. my impression is that these disturbances are due to racist jealousy of the Chinese, whose point of view I believe we should listen to more closely (Martin Mellish, Port Townsend, USA)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

3. THE MEDIA/BRAINWASHING:

Are you so naive to think that WE get to see the whole truth in OUR media?
Our press is just self-censored according to what will get people talking or get higher ratings. Especially with our current 24-hr news culture. […] Whenever I've tried to make deeper comments than "we should look at ourselves first" the BBC doesn't publish me. We're fooled into thinking we have democracy because we can openly blame our Government for everything, but that's not the whole truth is it? (Simon, London)

amazing what a bit of press coverage will do for a cause (Steve Williamson, Manchester)

I get news from both western and Chinese sources, but I have long concluded that neither are trustworthy. The media here reports what their readers want to hear, the media in China reports what the government want their people to hear. Either way, they are full of intentional or unintentional bias.

The difference is that the Chinese know their media is not trustworthy. We either ignore them, or are discretional of what to believe. While the westerners have the illusion that they have heard the full truth from their newspaper and TV, and start to believe they are so superior and well informed that they can tell China how to run our country.

The reality is, the westerners are as brainwashed as what they believe the Chinese are.
(Geja, Toronto – Chinese)

who hardly know anything about the situation in China and Tibet other than those reported by the one-sided western media (SY, Cardiff)

The Chinese people are wonderful, intelligent and honourable. You are being lied to by your leaders. -- Yes our leaders lie, but we know it. (joe, Berwichshire, Scotland)
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4. TIBETAN MINERAL RESOURCES (!)

There are more than 90 known mineral types in Tibet. Total reserves of 26 of these have been verified, with that of 11 ranking among the top five in China by province. The region's 2,500 square kilometers of chromite deposits, concentrated along the Lake Banggong Co to the Nujiang River rift zone in northern Tibet and along the Yarlung Zangbo River rift zone, are the most in China. The Norbusa Chromite Mine in Shannan Prefecture has become a chromite production base. Tibet's prospective lithium deposits are among the most in the world and the region serves as China's lithium production base. Prospective copper and gypsum reserves rank second in China, boron, magnesite, barite and arsenic third, mica and p