Help save the French language

Now you can do your bit to save the French language. Christine Albanel, the Culture Minister [above] has just opened a site on la toile (better known as le web) which seeks French equivalents for the American-English jargon that has invaded the language. Featured words today are coach, gender and podcasting.

Franceterme.culture.fr is a new weapon in an ancient battle. Les Anglo-Saxons, whose own vocabulary has been part Gallic since the 12th century, are always amused by the attempts of the French state and its language police to defend the purity of the tongue.  Why, wonder smug foreigners, don't the French just laissez faire like the Anglophone nations and allow people to use foreign terms if they think they sounds more chic.

After living for some time on the front line in this war, let me defend France's rear-guard campaign. Yes, I share "Anglo-saxon" antipathy to the idea of policing language. It's silly, smacks of oppressive regimes and it costs a fortune -- hundreds of millions of euros a year are spent on the language bureaucracy and promoting the French language abroad.

Yet... why shouldn't a country seek ways to resist pressure from more powerful cultures -- in this case the USA? Sometimes it works.  In honour of tomorrow's International Day of the French-speaking World, I shall explain:

Albanel cited Albert Camus to make the case for defence this week. "Naming things badly means taking part in the misfortune of the world." Applying a bit of artificial respiration to a language can be effective, as Greece, Israel and many other nations showed in the 20th century (cue outraged comments). For all the time wasted in seeking French expressions that never get adopted, France's official language bodies have scored some hits over the years.

This has been the case when the coinages are elegant and concise. For example, while much of the world was learning to say 'computer', France came up with ordinateur, from Latin (the original ordinateur was God). Jacques Perret, the Sorbonne Professor of Latin, proposed the word in 1954 at the request of IBM France when it was introducing its 650 "data processing machine". Ordinateur stuck in French but never took off in other Romance languages apart from European Spanish. So did logiciel, a brainy coinage for the typically prosaic English software. The French informatique is so much more stylish than information technology that some American startups like to say they do informatics.

Influenced by Quebec's muscular language policies, the French committee on new words has had more recent hits. It knocked out the Japanese-American Walkman with baladeur in the 1990s. (balader is to go for a stroll. It also meant dance in provençal and this gave ballade or what you sing while you do it). The state has been making some headway with courriel ( a contraction of courrier electronique) although le mail  still dominates. Courriel, invented in Quebec, is used by by law on state broadcast networks and has been adopted by le Monde and other journals. Pourriel, for le spam, may also work too. It's a clever contraction of pourri (rotten) and courriel.

Politics is never far away. For example, altermondialisme ('other-worldism'), is now standard for what in English is known as anti-capitalist or anti-globalisation. An altermondialiste, in the French mind, is a progressive type who promotes a fairer, if unrealistic, vision of society (think José Bové). An anti-capitalist, in the Anglo-American mind, is a loser with a mask and a petrol bomb (Think Black Blok). The French libéral has a pejorative sound to many ears compared with the positive sound of "free market" in English. They have other pro-market words, though. Remember the joke that George W Bush is supposed to have remarked that "The French don't have any word for entrepreneur".

Gender is another case. French has started using the American-inspired gender in its feminist political sense such as  "gender politics" or gender role". The language authority hates this and points out, as English-language purists also do, that gender means grammatical category, masculine or feminine, and it is a French word to begin with (gendre in old French which became genre).

The Terminology Commission wants you to say sexe if that's what you mean or explain further using the words "hommes et femmes". That's obviously too long-winded so please send a better idea to Madame Albanel's site (Carla Bruni, the new Madame Sarkozy, has been doing her bit on this front. Posing for a photograph last week at the Elysée Palace with President Peres of Israel, she said she never says the smile-inducing English word 'cheese' for the camera, as the French usually do. Instead, she told him "Je dis sexe")

The Commission générale de terminologie et de néologie, which reports to the Prime Minister, needs help to find replacements for the inventions that have not taken off.  Some are just too cumbersome to be adopted, even though civil servants are supposed to use them. These are usually much longer than the English. For example, everyone except the state broadcasters, talks about le podcasting rather than the officially decreed la diffusion pour baladeur. No-one will learn to say "piraterie routière" instead of le car-jacking.

Away from these interesting word games, you can make a good case for saying that French does not need defending because it is in healthy shape . The language may be on the retreat around the world, but it is thriving at home, enriched by its foreign borrowings  -- from Arabic and African languages as well as English.

Alain Rey, a famous language expert and editor of the popular Robert dictionary, has been singing its praises as the country marks its annual French Language Week. French is enjoying a vigour not seen since the 16th century, he said. "It's flowing in from everywhere, a real melting pot". Rey,  79, a charming iconoclast, says that he does not mind that grammar is being trashed by the young. The main thing is that they are being inventive with words. Last year he helped a group of banlieue kids publish a dictionary of their slang, called Lexik des Cites. [My article on it here]

In le Parisien, last week, Rey said he especially liked the banlieue kids' coinage for the American phrase "I'm cool". They say "Je suis moelleux". That means soft and runny. The English borrowed moelleux in the middle ages and turned it into mellow.  In the San Francisco of 60s flower power that of course came to mean I'm cool (As in "I'm just mad about Saffron" video)

If you've read as far as this, you must be curious about French. So here's the list of 10 words that are being officially celebrated in this year's Semaine de la Langue Française (14-24 March). They are chosen as illustrating some aspect, usually delightful, of French civilisation. 

-- apprivoiser (to tame)
-- boussole (navigation compass)
-- jubilatoire (exhilarating, jubilatory)
-- palabre (endless talk)
-- passerelle (footbridge, gangway)
-- rhizome (horizontal stem of a plant. Figuratively, something with no beginning or end, like a network)
-- s'attabler -- to sit down to a meal
-- tact [borrowed by English, who did not have the concept]
-- toi (you singular, familiar)
-- visage (face)

[below: L'Académie française, guardian and official arbiter of the French language]

Comments

[dot king]

"tact" borrowed by English who did not have the concept" (CB)

c'est de la provoc!

apprivoiser - very useful when you work in estate agency, no, make that "nécessaire"

but what a strange selection of words to celebrate a whole week on!

and do we celebrate them by usage? if so, "toi" could be un vrai champs de mines! à utiliser avec tact . . .

[John]

"The language may be on the retreat around the world" (Ch. Bremner)

If by that Mr. Bremner means that French is on the retreat in Louisiana or Indochina, this is a rather narrow view of the world. In Africa, which has become the continent with most French speakers, French has made great advances since the end of colonization, and there are now more French speakers in Africa than ever before.

According to the latest Francophonie Report, in 2006 there were 115 million French-speakers in Africa spread across 31 francophone countries. These 31 francophone African countries currently have 321 million inhabitants, but the UN forecasts they will have 733 million inhabitants by 2050. With progress in schooling, the proportion of French speakers in these countries is bound to rise further, which means the absolute number of French speakers will rise tremendously (rising proportion of French-speakers * natural growth of population). In other words, by the middle of this century there should be more French speakers worldwide than Spanish speakers (Latin American is at the end of its demographic transition). French will thus become the most spoken Romance language in the world.

Talk of a retreat!

[Thanks, as always, John. But I'll stand by what I said. French is unquestionably in retreat around the world. Far fewer are learning it than they used to everywhere except Africa and fluent French speakers are in sharp decline internationally. Read Olivier Poivre d'Arvor, Directeur de Culturesfrance in today's Figaro, for example. Far from crowing over this, I am deploring it. OPDA, by the way, thinks the solution is to do more to help the elites of the world get an education in French. A good idea. CB]

[Robert Marchenoir]

As usual with such government initiatives, that's caring about details and missing the big picture.

What use is it nit-picking about the French translation of podcast, if an enormous, and growing, proportion of school-leavers can barely read, write, and even speak their own language?

[John]

Oh, and another thing, in 2050 the country with the most French speakers in the world won't be France anymore, it will be the Democratic Republic of Congo (with a 2050 population as large as today's Brazil). Already today, despite all the wars, epidemics and whatnot, there are 24 million French speakers in Congo according to a recent survey by the Université de Kinshasa. This is four-times higher than was previously thought (there hadn't been any survey conducted since the fall of Mobutu).

These findings by the Université de Kinshasa are quite remarkable because they show that even in a country torn by war, people feel the need to learn French, the State language, for their social advancement. In the school year 2005-2006 there were 6,140,000 kids attenting French-only primary schools in the Democratic Republic of Congo, almost as many as in France where there were 6,317,000 kids enrolled in primary schools (écoles primaires). As things go, by the end of this decade there should be more kids in the French-only primary schools of Congo than in those of France.

[Helen]

'boussole' is never used on a ship; instead seamen use the word 'compas'...
on board a ship, 'la passerelle' is the 'wheelhouse'.
I really liked the phrase 'je suis moelleux', I had never heard it used!

[John]

[I'll stand by what I said. French is unquestionably in retreat around the world. Far fewer are learning it than they used to everywhere except Africa and fluent French speakers are in sharp decline internationally. CB]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. What you mean is there are fewer French speakers among the world elites than there used to. World elites, however, by their very definition, are only a very small layer of the world population. The loss of a few tens of thousands of French speakers among the world elites is largely compensated (numerically at least) by the millions of new French speakers in the middle and lower classes worldwide.

At the moment, if we count 1st and 2nd language speakers of French as well as people who learnt the language as a foreign language such as you, then we have a total of about 500 million people worldwide who can speak French. There has never been as many French speakers as today, never, not even in the 1930s when French was the language of diplomacy and world elites.

True, you can say that the millions more French speakers of mainly Africa don't have the same influence as the tens of thousands of French speakers lost in world elites, but personally I prefer the current situation. The position of French was always fragile due to its tiny base. Now, French is doing it the hard way, like Spanish, building up an extremely numerous base of mainly poor people, but eventually the descendants of these poor essentially African people will also become rich as Africa will eventually enter the developped world, and then French will certainly be a language to reckon with due to its sheer numbers.

Those who think French is in decline are simply blind to the realities of what's going on: a shift from a tiny elite language to a mass third-world language.

PS: I also note that even in Europe French is not as in retreat as we are always told. Just to mention England, back in the 1930s when French was paramount in international diplomatic circles, there were far fewer English people able to speak French than today. Back then few English kids went beyond primary school, and foreign languages were not as massively taught as they have been since the 1960s to the English middle-class. Let's keep a sense of history.

[Daisy]

One of the things I love about English is that it is truly a global language in that it incorporates words from other languages and cultures. That makes it useful, which is what a language should be. In trying to keep a language pure, you can end up destroying it. And, I agree, that we shouldn't put too much empahsis on purity when people don't even know the basics.

How many of those Africans who speak french, speak a pure form of the language (that the Academie can be proud of) or is it intermingled with local African dialects?

[Juliette]

I have never heard the word "gender" in a French conversation. Sure thing for podcast and coach, but gender? People still use the word "genre".

Anyway, Albanel understood something: evolution of the language is a bottom-up process, so instead of having the Académie Française thinking of words, having actual human beings (you know, those that are not immortal) doing it is pretty smart.

[me]

Carla Bruni [...] told him "Je dis sexe"

Le 'telephone arabe' probably reported this wrong. The correct sentence to use while looking at a camera is "ouistiti sexe". Practice it, you'll see it has the same effect as "cheese" in english, it appear that you smile while you say it.

[You're probably right, that's what she must have meant, but le Canard Enchaîné today quoted her as saying "Je ne dis pas cheese, mais sexe". CB]

[Stuart Shields]

You wrote, "Ordinateur stuck in French but never took off in other Romance languages."

Might I point out that, here in Spain, the common word is "ordenador". And, although I am no expert on the matter, I believe they say "computadora" in Latin America.

[Thanks. I'll correct it. I learnt my Spanish in Mexico where it was computadora and I checked with a French reference book before writing today, because I have heard both in Spain. My mistake. CB]

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

At least the Banlieu kids try to get as near as possible to the meaning of "cool" (cool cat; Cool Hand Luke;) but the Allsorts we have in England get it wrong, so that Funky, which is an American negro jazz word, meaning smelly "I ain't no funky-butt") has come to mean the opposite: "I felt really funky on the cat-walk" said the mannequin. And now that D.H. Lawrence and Norman Mailer and their fight for four letter words is part of life, they may even go out of usage, the origins twisted into a term of abuse. Again, U.S. negro talk: it means someone who is lucky, a stud who lives with a woman on Welfare and does not have to support either her or the children.
Slang is one thing, but the destruction of language is another, and "the kids" now say "I would of" instead of "I would have". Try telling them it is a verb and they look at you as if you are mad. About 10 days ago Britain's Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, said it on TV : "I would of..."
No one is wasting their time fighting for the purity of the French language.
Exercise: Take your TV magazine and go through it page by page and circle every English word in it. Each week, haver a count-up. The rot is setting in.

[John]

"How many of those Africans who speak french, speak a pure form of the language (that the Academie can be proud of) or is it intermingled with local African dialects?" (Daisy)

Check the African French article on Wikipedia for more details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_French

Basically, in French as in any other language there are different registers. When someone from Glasgow speaks with people in his/her street, you and me would have trouble understanding what they say, but when that same person from Glasgow meets someone from California he/she switches to a more standard register that we can all understand. It's the same in Africa. People in the street in Abidjan speak French in a register that a person from France will need time to adjust to, but when meeting someone from France or Québec a person from Abidjan would switch to a more standard register that we can all understand (except if the person is completely uneducated).

Actually, in my experience I've had a harder time understanding people in Glasgow than in Abidjan. Lol.

[James]

The English word I hate the most - when used by the French - is : AWARDS

Seriously, I live in France and every year it's the NRJ AWARDS - said with the most bizarre french accent.

What's wrong with Prix?

I love the french language and the more they can remove these "cuckoo" english/american words - that just don't sound good - the better.

[Christine]

"enriched by its foreign borrowings -- from Arabic and African as well as English"
I am not sure there is any language called "African"... There is also quite an influence from Italian and Spanish

What is really interesting (and shows indeed the vitality of the french language) is the way the suburbs slang has been using expressions from foreign languages, inventing new words, but most surprisingly reviving old "argot" words that had actually disappeared. Les voies de la langue sont impénétrables...

[Romain]

It strikes me how educated Africans who learned French in their homeland can speak wonderfully well, compared to second generation immigrants and even many French people who were taught by the Republican School. On top of it they often carry some delightful archaich expressions, high in color and rich of fragrance.
My most unexpected experience was to talk with an Irish man living in Marseille(s) who learned French in Belgian Congo. He was conjugating all his accents in a syncretic vernacular which I could still understand, inspite of his very own uncartesian Irish way of thinking.
It was hilarious.

[dot king]

"How many of those Africans who speak french, speak a pure form of the language (that the Academie can be proud of) or is it intermingled with local African dialects?" (Daisy)

Language and dialect are separate, indeed some dialects should have the status of a language. Francophones (and Anglophones for that matter) who live outside of mainstream language communities all know the difference between when the two - they might use the dialect at home or amongst their peers, but never in a situation where a common language is required.

Peter K, I think the people you mention, including Gordon Brown, are saying "would've" which is correct, but when they write it "would of" it's not only incorrect, it's nonsense.

When I need to know the gender of a French noun, if I ask a question based around "quel genre?" I get either a blank stare or (depending on where I am when I ask) an answer such as "nom commun" or "nom abstrait" - and a questioning, pitying look :). The question to ask is "masculin ou féminin?"
As I've understood it, "genre" is used to mean exclusively (?) "type" and "gendre" is son-in-law and necessarily masculine!

Alain Rey is a fascinating person. this has made me notice that his daily "word slot" on TV and radio has disappeared. Or maybe he's on a station I don't tune in to?
En tous cas, je le kiffe grave.

[No Dot, France-Inter dumped him about three years ago because they found him too high-brow for drive-time listeners. I agree, his slot was great. He was, however, on the radio (France-Inter, I think) last Sunday morning talking about his delight in language. CB]

[Valentin]

"the NRJ AWARDS - said with the most bizarre french accent."

C'est parce que c'est COOL, et en plus ça a l'air très BRITISH-EUX, James :))

[Romain]

Christine

I know at least one African language, that is Nigerian. I often called a friend of mine in Lagos to invite him for lunch. His secretary was sometimes answering "Mazda 'e no de', 'e de go for chop" meaning "Master is not there, he went out for lunch" (all bosses were addressed to as master).
Once my friend was calling me while I was having a "kidney pause",
my secretary replied "Mazda 'e de' like 'e no de'" (Master is there like he is not there"), much more elegant than: he has gone to the jones.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

No, Dot: I wish you were right, but the P.M. said "would of". My stepson and all his teenage friends said "I would of" because they hear it on radiio and TV. I must have corrected him 50 times, to no avail. If asked to write "would've" they would not have known what you were talking about. The same applies to "restauranteur", used constantly by journalists, TV presenters, food and restaurant critics. A dozen times I have said: "Please tell so-and-so there is no such word as restauranteur. It is restaurateur."
Again,to no avail. It is in the language now. If I had a lot of hair left, I'd tear it out!
I used to sing the songs of George Brassens -- with some mistakes --when I was in the army in France but when I did so at a party, a few years ago, in a town near Sete, a Parisian turned up next day with all the words written out by hand!
I was flattered. Vive les troubadors!

[LesC]

Yeah, just try telling the French they can't put on a "t-shirt" this "weekend" or chew "chewing gum."

[French Blue]

Great stuff Charles - I'm really glad you favour the vigorous defence of the French language. I've always enjoyed the idea of the Academie Francaise as being endearingly nutty, as well as simultaneously being profoundly important. To care about language is to care about thought, about communication, about elegance and precision of expression. Why should we put up with sloppiness, inelegance and imported banal Americanisms?

[HdF]

You forgot to mention the acronyms which are increasingly produced from english words. ADSL (Asymmetric Digital Subscriber Line), which by the way has no specific meaning in english since all the telecom lines today are digital, is so common nowadays that nobody would propose to use LPNA, the suggested french equivalent when the technology was initially introduced.

I agree that this policy is not a complete failure, but if all policies are deemed a success because they have had some hits then the world is driven by succesful-only policies.

When we see how incapable the policiticians are to understand today's technological mutations and their cultural implications, it is a pity to see so much energy wasted for an endeavour that is already producing very questionable results (I went to the web site and I'm not impressed).

Charles, may I recommend that you tune to "La nouvelle star" on M6 and look at the amazing proportion singing in english with, as far as I can appreciate, a good accent.

Hurry up, Albanel may soon produce a law banning english from the reality shows produced in France.

[PJB]

My French teacher at the lycée taught us that language was defined by grammar rather than vocabulary. So while the académie watches over the imparfait du subjonctif (incidentally far more used in Italian, where no such institution prevails), carry on using your emails, your webs and your walkmans (incorporated by Renaud in 'Mon beauf'). How many english words come from French? A large %.

[Donald]

[I'll stand by what I said. French is unquestionably in retreat around the world. Far fewer are learning it than they used to everywhere except Africa and fluent French speakers are in sharp decline internationally. CB]

As evidence of the decline, an article on French in Canada:

http://frenchculturenow.com/politics-and-society.php

which contains this quote:

"Only 31 per cent of Quebec immigrants are inclined to adopt French as their main language."

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

Nothing new about Franglais either: Strolling in a street off the Bou Mich in 1954 I saw a blazer on sale in a shop window with this notice:
BIEN ANGLAIS
TRES SNOB
PRESQUE CAD

[Francois D]

Some remarks:

-It's true, I feel, that Quebequois are better that French for inventing new words in french. French seems to be divided between "moderns" who import shamelessly english words and "classics" who use expressions instead of new words or wait "académie française"'s authorisation (but Académie Française needs 25 years for revisiting its dictionnary from A to Z).
"Quebecois" are very good for inventing new words like they know how composing beautiful songs.

- Grammar remains osssature for a language. You must be likely to know that the best book in French grammar is the "Grévisse": "Bon usage". Don't imagine that Mr Grévisse is french; he is (was?)professor at Louvain, Belgium.

When you want to write in French without (too much) mistakes, two books are needed: the "Petit Robert" for words, and the "Grevisse" for grammar.

And sorry for my mistakes in English, for words and grammary.

[Dominique, angry teacher]

Charles writes :

"Rey, 79, a charming iconoclast, says that he does not mind that grammar is being trashed by the young. The main thing is that they are being inventive with words."

Rey is a typical demagog who cares about the language only and does not give a darn shxxt about the poor kids not being able to express themselves properly and who lack words.

Rey, like linguists in general, only care for the language : they put the language on a stage, study it, praise it, and consider it as an end instead than a mean. For him, the important thing is that the language changes in the long run. Kids? who cares?

Rey should know that knowing 10 words of the dictionnary is more usefull and socially more efficient than knowing 3 words known in you backyard only. So many linguists do share the same cult toward the language within the educationnal system and forget the main goal : educating children, allowing them to express themselves with language rather than muscles.

Vocabulary? pfff! gramar? who cares? syntax? who needs that? That is typical demagogy from those who perfectly speak the language, know very how to express themselves and deny our kids of the suburb to do the same.

That is eiher postcolonialism or sicial apartheid at it's best!

[Dominique, angry teacher]

Policy, law regarding the french language a failure?

What was the édit de Villers-Cotterêts made in 1539 by François Ier? It did set up french as the official language, launching french litterature for the next 5 centuries.

That was clearly a political decision defining a complete succesfull national frame. The very opposite of a political mistake.

[paul]

Regarding computing/informatics most of the technical terms are not translated but put into italics. You see clocker /overclocker/burst/pipeline in French.
By the way the French are the only country to translate bite by octet.

"the French are the only country to translate bite by octet."

It's bYte, and since its made of 8 bits, I find octet better framing it than the original name!

[Valentin]

"Only 31 per cent of Quebec immigrants are inclined to adopt French as their main language"

Because French is much more difficult to learn than English, we've been through that before. Thats proof less of decline and more of a certain (relative) elitism of the French language - either that, or people laziness :)

[Mary Fernandez]

1. "Away from these interesting word games, you can make a good case for saying that French does not need defending because it is in healthy shape. The language may be on the retreat around the world, but it is thriving at home, enriched by its foreign borrowings -- from Arabic and African languages as well as English."

Isn't this a contradiction? The policing was to reduce foreign borrowings.

2. "Carla Bruni, the new Madame Sarkozy, has been doing her bit on this front. Posing for a photograph last week at the Elysée Palace with President Peres of Israel, she said she never says the smile-inducing English word 'cheese' for the camera, as the French usually do. Instead, she told him "Je dis sexe"

YOU left out the punctuation, Charles. Considering her history and career, are you sure didn't more accurately say, "Je dis, sex?"

3. "-- tact [borrowed by English, who did not have the concept]"

Never heard of it. :-)

[Richard]

In Québec they've been using baladodiffusion for some years for "Podcast"

http://www.radio-canada.ca/baladodiffusion/

[Francois D]

"the French are the only country to translate bite by octet."

Explanation may be simpler: phonetically "bit" has the same meaning than "penis" in vulgar language. Maybe it is not very correct to pronounce this word constantly during a work session (for children, in a classroom, it's a source of fun guaranteed)

[Richard Huxley]

Living on the border here in Strasbourg it is surprising how few people speak french and german, let alone english.

Luckily if we have kids (in germany just over the Rhine) they will naturally speak english, german and french...then maybe learn a new languauge like chinese.

In europe English in business is very important...I feel that the French kids generally dislike this! :)) However if you do try to speak French they are very welcoming.

I find it far less precise to use than English..more romance and guilded semantic frippery...but fair enough I have to use it living here.

[Romain]

You may not realise very few African children have access to school, not to mention proper schools. Their motivation is very strong because they know mastering languages is opening a future for themselves. Rama Yade is a living example of an African lady who did grammary school in Senegal. When I compare francophone and anglophone countries in Africa, I see that French is much better spoken than English. Anglophone countries had too much complacency with broken English or pidgin English (in my opinion). I would say French has better dynamics in Africa.

[alan morgan]

Graham Robb , in his elegant book " The Discovery of France " clearly records the journey through the France of the 1860's when Patois was widely spoken to the France of today. To say that French became a common tongue quickly is only partly true. Even as late as the 1970's Pompidou said " there is no place for regional languages in a France destined to set its mark on Europe ". The Government has and continues to use the notion of a common language to unite France. Any foreign wodks; from any language, external as well as internal are suspected of undermining unity. In the land of a thousand tongues monolingualism is the mark of an educated person.Yet the provincial langauges refuse to die out and are rising in current usage. So why get interested in a few English words. Its the local patois the Parisian minority should watch out for!

[Lily]

[Yeah, just try telling the French they can't put on a "t-shirt" this "weekend" or chew "chewing gum."] (LesC)

Le temps risque de se dégrader en fin de semaine. Il faudra mettre le gros tricot; celui à manches courtes n'ira pas. Il est interdit de mâcher des bonbons moelleux!

[Mortimer]

As you stated early on, we anglos find the concept of a government language police very Orwellian, not just risible but scary. Beyond the pathetic and arrogant reasoning behind such overweening government pretentiousness, there is something both totalitarian and frankly racist implied by such legislation. Where do you draw the line between the cleansing of foreign words and the cleansing of foreigners?

Lexical and ethnic engineering were both very popular in the Soviet Union. Only in places like Paris or Moscow do you see cultures with such servility to the central, all-powerful state. Language is a tool, part of that statist intimidation.

In a similar vein, until very recently the French state routinely was able to dictate to parents which names they could give to their children. This form of totalitarianism is now blessedly defunct. Maybe through contact with the outside democratic world the French government will one day prove it is able to adapt to the times as for the naming other things beyond children.

Mortimer

[john o'doe]

Living in France you have to understand the local French meaning given to apparently familiar English words or expressions.
e.g. 'un people' = a celebrity,
'un book' = pressbook
'le bookmaker' = London-based betting operation
'overbooké' = extremely busy
'le turnover' = why is everyone leaving?,
'le marketing' = meretricious hype or spin of an unworthy product or service,
'le business' = doubtful transactions
'le dealer' = drug dealer
'hype' = fashionable,
'un fashion' = fashion victim or fashionista,
le coaching = tactical substitution (in football or rugby),
anglo-saxon = not latin, probably English speaking,
Fuck, fucking = Anglo-Saxon expressions used for amusement by trendy French wordsmiths with no idea of their power to shock and offend.
and finally there's
Oooh, I am shocking (pronounced shock-eeeeng) = I'm shocked or I'm gently mocking you for your uncool moralising attitude to our Gallic ways which are the product of a superior civilisation.

[dot king]

"Vocabulary? pfff! gramar? who cares? syntax? who needs that?"
(dominique angry teacher)

Dominique you are not alone - I am just now teaching the PRS and the CO and PCO to two English girls in 5ème. We are, as one, captivated! Double lessons are best. ;0

I think you are a little unjust on Alain Rey, I saw him present the above-mentioned dictionnaire des "djeunesss" - he was approving of it not as a replacement for "conventional" language, but as an interesting addition and just for love of words, which I can relate to wholeheartedly.
It's also gratifying to find some "djeunesss" who take enough interest in language (as a general concept) to go to the trouble of compiling a dictionary - and an etymological one at that.

Of course I agree with you that a good sound "mainstream" linguistic education is necessary, but there's room for "alternatives" as well.
Remember that this kind of "non-standard" language is often fashion-linked. In the UK in the 1970's everything was "fab" "the gear" you might have been "square" "a cat" (liste non-exhaustive) - No-one uses those words now, it would be very "non-U" (that for the even older bloggers!).
At that time too, it was fashionable to affect a Liverpool accent too, now it's more likely to be Essex (or maybe last time I was au courant). In any case what I mean to say is that language is dynamic, it adapts, changes, goes through phases, and at base the accepted standard remains, unsullied.

[Emlyn]

This isn't a new problem by any means: the classic book on the subject is Etiemble's "Parlez-vous franglais?", published in 1961 and still very relevant and highly entertaining.

[dot king]

"You may not realise very few African children have access to school, not to mention proper schools. Their motivation is very strong because they know mastering languages is opening a future for themselves."
(Romain)

YO!

[dot king]

"celui à manches courtes n'ira pas"
(Lily)
quoi, je ne pourrais pas mettre mon petit haut?

[Ros]

Charles, I've never heard the expression "drive-time listeners.", did you invent it? I presume it means people who only listen to the radio while driving?
DOT KING:" The question to ask is "masculin ou féminin?" Yes, but I ask "le ou la"? - even more simple.
LESC: "Yeah, just try telling the French they can't put on a "t-shirt" this "weekend" or chew "chewing gum." - I'm afraid the war for" t-shirt & "chewing-gum"
is lost as it's been going on for too long but there's still a chance that "week-end" could go back to "fin de semaine".
On the other hand, I think computer language could just as well be left in english & I think many French people would agree.
All the same, I am old enough to remember London before, during and after WW2 - in the smarter restaurants there were always "hors-d'oeuvre" written on the menus - now everyone says "starter" but have never noticed how it's written on menus.
DOT KING also says "but what a strange selection of words to celebrate a whole week on!" - I certainly agree and wonder who chose them?

[Roger Goodacre]

As a part-time translator, and son of a professional translator who worked on international treaties, legal documents etc, I disagree that French is less precise than English.

English is very sloppy and imprecise, the meaning of words constantly eroded or altered by new generations who are not interested in their etymology (or badly taught). When translating a word or phrase from English into French, it's often necessary to use several French words to convey the precise meaning, which is often implied or ambiguous.

We're in the process of seeing English language and grammar shift before our eyes: the incorrect use of "it's" and "its", as a minor example, is frighteningly common, even in the pages of The Times.

[Seb]

Semaine de la Francophonie oblige, le Francais s'impose pour commenter ce post (article en ligne ?) meme si les claviers qwerty n'aident pas vraiment la manoeuvre...
Le sport aussi a du mal a se défaire de l'influence anglaise. Peu de commentateurs osent aujourd'hui le coup de pied de coin (corner) ou le coup de pied de réparation (penalty). Idem en rugby pour le pick and go et le up and under (chandelle de récupération).
Heureusement, le discours d'ouverture des JO de Pékin se fera dans la langue de Manaudou.

[Romain]

Roger Goodacre
I've heard it so many times on both sides that one word may have half a dozen different meanings, English or French, making either of them imprecise.
The fundamental difference between French and English is that syntax carries more meaning in French, and vocabulary in English.
You will find that a one page contract in French will take three pages in English, with so many repetitions and redondancies around words. I've given up trying to translate words, I rather concentrate on meaning when I have to.

[Edward Johns]

I'm astounded that no-one from across the Atlantic has as yet pointed out that had had it not been for anglophones, the population of Europe would all be speaking German by now !
At the end of the day, are the French (as a generalisation) a little too docile in following government diktats as to what language they can use ? Or is it, as some might suggest, an example of their chauvinism?
Surely understanding is far more important than the origins of the language used.

[john o'doe]

@Seb
C'est qui ce Mamadou?

[dot king]

Roger Goodacre, as a part-time translator myself, I think I know what you mean, but wouldn't altogether agree with it.
Translators have to be very careful in their choice of words, knowing not just their equivalents, but the weight any word chosen carries in the context in which it's used, and I think this practice carries over into "everyday" life.
Someone might "throw in" to a discussion, a word, an expression, a label (:-(), without giving a second thought as to whether they're conveying exactly what they mean, nor whether they've properly defined the terms of what they're saying in a way that the listener or reader will be able to receive them as intended. (We know how to be wordy though, don't we?)
I was listening to The France Inter Médiateur on Saturday afternoon after someone had taken the station to task over use of the words "ripostes" and "représailles" in (justement) describing hostile actions between Israël and Palestine. "Ripostes" carries a notion of just return, whereas "représailles" conveys a notion of vengeance. If you use one word for one side and the other for the other, then your report carries a judgement and isn't unbiased reporting. If you use only one word, then your reporting becomes repetitive, uninteresting, if unbiased.
Un vrai champs de mines.

I think I mentioned before somewhere, that I translated some adoption papers for a French couple last year, and found the French used plutôt reducteur and I had to be quite ingenious (I thought) to stay within the intention of the document and yet convey that these were not dangerous child-molesters from a long line of dangerous child-molesters (I exaggerate - slightly), but the prospect of a good loving home for some child somewhere who needed one.
When someone with the education and responsibility of a psychologist making such decisions is "sloppy" enough to write: "suivant une suite de fausses couches par Madame", it does create a kind of despair.
For example: "services sociaux - enfants", translate this as "social services - children" and in English you have projected the idea of mistreatment which would definitely bode ill for the adoptive parents-to-be. So some juggling had to be done to convey the equivalent service.
When words and their accuracy in usage are your living (my other part-time is a teacher), I think you are quite naturally more sensitive to linguitic "sloppiness" than most people.
Whilst I could put a plaster on a cut finger, I couldn't set a broken one. Someone who could do both those things far better than me might express themself less well.
Keeping things in perspective?

I remember a philosophy tutor we had who spent an hour and a half "proving" to a group of student teachers that the only thing a person needed to have to get by in life was the ability to throw a switch. He had an answer for every "but what if?" that we put to him.
Whether there's a grain of truth to it or not, it was a good way of making teachers reflect on just what use they are!
Enfin bref, "sloppiness" isn't confined to English IMO.

[Maggie G]

"When I compare francophone and anglophone countries in Africa, I see that French is much better spoken than English. Anglophone countries had too much complacency with broken English or pidgin English (in my opinion)."
-- Romain

Not so sure about this. Well-educated Africans speak incredibly good English too. I remember a Nigerian woman who took out her cigarettes and asked, "May one smoke?" I wonder if even Princess Margaret spoke like that.

The ones who speak pidgin English are the ones who haven't been to school (or, if they have, not for very long).

I worked in the dean's office at the university one summer. The Canadian students would write a two line note requesting permission to drop one course and replace it with another, whereas African students would write a beautifully polished page-long letter with a stunning display of formal language.

[Robert Marchenoir]

So now we know what we had been suspecting all along: Dominique is indeed a French teacher.

Why it has taken so long for him to come out of the closet is anyone's guess.

Mine is that he was reluctant to reveal that his views are so consistent with the worst stereotypes attributed to his corporation in this country.

But then, he is free to adopt any views he sees fit, isn't he?

[PJB]

There's a famous UN example of the French "evacuation des territoires occupés" being translated into English imprecisely either as "evacuation of occupied territories" or "evacuation of the occupied territories". Not quite the same, though not so famous an example that I could tell on what occasion it occurred nor even if it definitely occurred in the translation from French to English. Just something I was told once in school, in a class on language. Probably something to do with Israel, and it may just be that that one, solitary, single misunderstanding (be it not apochryphal) explains the world today. Ah, the unbearable weight of such matters!

[Stephen KING]

Que demande la peuple?
Les anglais s'en servaient allegrement de la langue francaise aussi pour enrichir la leur, c'est meme "chic" et depuis un certain temps.
Vivre la liberte d'expression.
A la retraite, l'Acadamie et vivons ensembles, vivre la differences et profitons de cette possibilite de communiquer entre nos deux peuples. Meme si je n'ai pas d'accents sur mon keyboard - Zut, = clavier.

[Romain]

Maggie
I was not talking of elite or African students in Europe, but of ordinary people. I have lived several years in Nigeria, and I had to accomodate with pidgin English to get ordinary things done. This would not be the case in French speaking African countries, or to a far lesser extent. Most of my fellow French expatriates were employing people from Benin who could speak French, English, and the local dialect (Yoruba). It was obviously more fun for me to get on with pidgin English.
But I differ from "The Anglo-saxon antipathy to the idea of policing language".

[Dominique]

Robert,

it's been a while..there's no outing here.

[Maggie G]

"So now we know what we had been suspecting all along: Dominique is indeed a French teacher." RM

Do you mean that he is a French (as opposed to American or Australian) teacher, or that he is a teacher of French?

Because we have all known for quite awhile that he's a teacher, and that he teaches primary children, so that means he teaches maths and history and science too, as well as French, doesn't it?

And we all know also that he has recently come back from a mission to Germany, where he was teaching the Germans how to strike better.

Long live Dominique!

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

Roger and Dot: my admiration for translators knows no bounds, but the saying is that English and Americans are people divided by a common language. Try this for size:
During my time in the army I covered a NATO meeting in Germany, making a shorthand note next to the translator, when an American red-neck Colonel from the snake-eyed South started to tell a story to "lighten up" the seriousness of the battle of the East Rhine : the story which, he claimed, most amused American negroes after "Brer Rabbit"
"A rabbit, a turtle and a buzzard set out to make their fortune. The land they found needed manure, so the rabbit was elected to go into town and buy it with the last of their savings.
"Instead he found bawdy houses, beautiful hostesses, the booze flowing freely and he settled in.
"A month later, feeling guilty, he used the lst of their savings to buy a very small bag of manure and returned to the land.
"There were oil-wells as far as the eye could see and a white mansion, lawns and a pool. A huge butler answered the door. "Yes sah?"
"Is the turtle in?"
"Sir, Mr. Tur-tell he down by the well."
"Is the buzzard in?"
"Sir, Mr. Bu-zzard, he down by the yard."
The rabbit pointed to the little bag of manure and said: "In that case - will you go tell them that Mister RAY-BIT is here wid de shit."
The translator had struggled manfully but he was near to tears. There was was a ripple of applause from the Americans, some titters from the British and silence from the dozen other nationalities

[Daniel Strohl]

Robert,

"Why it has taken so long for him to come out"

Most of the regular posters are aware since months not to say year(s) that Dominique is a teacher. I remember of several of his posts mentioning this fact (for instance, we had a discussion about "méthode syllabique" and "méthode globale").

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

Oh, and I admire teachers, too. My mother ("My teacher is very nice. She has black and white hair" wrote one pupil) was a teacher, approached by the mothers of some of the pupils to complain about the personal hygiene problem of a little girl called violet, with whom they refused to sit. My mother wrote to Violet's mother in diplomatic language suggesting a bath and change of clothing would solve the problem, and she received this reply: "Dear Teacher, my Violet is not a flower. She is at school to be teached. Not smelt."

[Dominique]

Maggie G,

I can teach anything to children coming to school every day, but nothing to children who come once a month only! Poor Robert, i'll leave a note to his parents, that's probably not his fault.

I told him monthslong to listen to the maître, but i admit i gave up a little while ago.
Shame on me and my deontology;)

[Maggie G]

"Maggie, I was not talking of elite or African students in Europe, but of ordinary people."

Okay, I see what you mean. Yes, maybe you're right.

What about East Africa? Do they speak better English there, or is it pidgin English there too?

By the way, are you living in Nigeria now? Because you said, "I have lived several years in Nigeria". Using the present perfect like this indicates that you are still living there.

If you no longer live there, you should use the past: "I lived several years in Nigeria".

Just thought I would point this out, because it is the most common mistake made by French people speaking English. Daniel Strohl does it too -- it's about the only mistake he ever makes. (Actually, this comment is probably addressed more to him, because I think he likes to know stuff like this.)

"Most of my fellow French expatriates were employing people from Benin who could speak French, English, and the local dialect (Yoruba)." Yes, I think Africans are very good at languages because there are so many different dialects that they learn from a very young age. So it's quite easy for them to pick up English or French at school.

[Blendi Progri]

France is doing as France should, and, as most expect from Her.

I agree with Charles’ Point (mainly the 2-nd part of it and the larger part of the argument) [why shouldn't a country seek ways to resist pressure CB].

Also I must point out another added benefit, that, this Linguistic ‘crusade’, has produced from sometime now, (not just the latest campaign) and not only in French speakers. France is doing a little more than saving its own language, I feel is doing more than that. Even unknowingly.

This ‘purism’ ( I think it must be called- a Principled Stand Up) automatically made France a central point for many other non-English- speaking-countries ( big and small) and in a way has ‘forced’ them to try and think of equivalent words, especially in Informatics. In matters of governance, public signs etc…etc.

How much every country will achieve is debatable (I remember reading a few years back that to change one word ( Engl.-in-Greek- from world of computers) it took 4-5 native ones.

But some results have been seen – and if it helps shed some laziness all the better; many academics, linguists, scholars and students are encouraged more and more to find / translate the terms in their own language and just go for the easy & cheap option.

That is thanks, in no small part to France.

[Romain]

Maggie
I only visited Kenya and South Africa for a few days. I would say the same applies regarding pidgin English. The big difference is the beautiful Swahili dialect is a mainstream language, whereas in Nigeria there are hundreds of dialects (at least 220).Similarly South Africa has two mainstream dialects with Zulu and Bantu.
I believe the question is how well can people speak a language rather than how many.
p.s. feel free to correct my English, it helps me to practice.

[Maggie G]

"I believe the question is how well can people speak a language rather than how many." (Romain)

What I meant was, when the child grows up with two or more languages from infancy, their brain is better "wired" to take on new languages. And as you say, Africans are exposed to a multitude of dialects so I think this is why many of them learn to speak French and English so fluently.

But then you just said that in most anglophone African countries, they speak pidgin English, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

I know that my own two sons have always spoken English with me and French with their father, and they don't find learning new languages difficult. I think unilingual people find it a lot harder.

I remember reading a report about immigrants to Quebec, I think it was. Wanting to give their children a good start, they spoke to them in French from infancy, rather than in their own language. Since their French was very poor, the result was that the children were almost handicapped in language -- they spoke French poorly and their native language poorly. Their brains were poorly "wired" for language. It would have been far better if the parents had spoken to the children in their native language, and given them a strong, accurate model of language. They would have learned good French later on at school.

[Daniel Strohl]

Maggie,

"because I think he likes to know stuff like this.)

Yes, Maggie, I am always happy when somebody helps me to improve my English. My problem is that there is nobody around me speaking good English (or even pidgin English .)

The mistake "I have lived ..." is due to the direct translation of the French form "j'ai vécu ..." (indicatif passé composé, as I am told by my memory resident "conjugateur", which is occasionally an useful tool).

Romain,

I remember one single word of swahili i.e the name of a very big tree (m'bouyou) which I saw in Mombasa may be 45 years ago.

I have got an Alsatian ersatz of "m'bouyou" in front of my office window. C'est un majestueux hêtre pleureur classé par la mairie. Ils ont envoyé des jardiniers pour couper quelques branches trop proches de l'immeuble, suite à la demande de notre syndic. Mais notre hêtre pleureur est toujours là, au grand déplaisir d'une des co-propriétaires ...

[john o'doe]

According to, sorry couldn't resist, Sarko, (hello Nicolas le buzz), there's no problem with Angela Merkel, they're the best of friends, they've exchanged phone numbers and they regularly send each other SMS messages. If this is true, what language do they correspond in?

[Romain]

"It would have been far better if the parents had spoken to the children in their native language, and given them a strong, accurate model of language." Maggie G
Spot on! First master your native language, then you can learn other languages. Thereafter, the more languages you learn, the easier it comes (at least for Indo-european tongues).

[Maggie G]

Hi Daniel,

If you want to know the difference between the past and the present perfect, here's a quick tip:

If you say WHEN something happened, it's the past.

You can say "The Queen has gone to Lisbon"

But you can't say "YESTERDAY the Queen has gone to Lisbon".

If you say "Yesterday..." or "Last week..." or "In 1962..." or "When I was in the Navy.." or "After Churchill died...", it has to be "the Queen WENT to Lisbon".

As soon as you specify when it happened, it's the past.

When you say, "The Queen has gone to Lisbon" or "Why has the Queen gone to Lisbon?" , it means she isn't back yet. The trip isn't over. It's not the past yet.

When you say,"The Queen WENT to Lisbon" or "Why did the Queen GO to Lisbon?", you are referring to something that happened in the past. It's over and done with. You can add all kinds of details, such as "After the election, the Queen went to Lisbon", or "Why did the Queen go to Lisbon when her mother was so ill?"

The present perfect usually stands alone: "The Queen has gone to Lisbon."

That was very brief. But you don't have to worry about changing your habits (at your age) (LOL)-- it's only if you want to be absolutely technically correct. It really doesn't affect our understanding of what you're telling us.

Your English is very, very good, so that's why I thought you might like to know.

I remember once you said something like "Before I retired (or "When I was still active") I have often driven to Villeneuve Loubet...." (I noticed that because I live in Villeneuve Loubet.) That should have been, of course, "When I was still active, I often DROVE to Villeneuve Loubet".

Have you been here recently? In the past ten years they've made some beautiful promenades and bicycle trails along the bord de mer and the Loup, widened the bridge, added some traffic circles, improved the main street in the village, and completely re-done the bord de mer in front of the hippodrome, planting a lot of palm trees there. The bord de mer is almost as beautiful as in Nice now.

Let me know if you're going to be passing through again!

[John Gregory Flinn]

JOHN's posts, and details of the development of spoken French in Africa, seem to confound the need to 'save the French language' that Charles and Christine Albanel urge on us.

I am not a linguistic expert and similarly deplore any demise (for French) that might come. But, perhaps the development of French in Africa will follow that of Spanish in America and save the day. Maybe not quite as purists might wish (ask any Castilian speaker his views on Argentine Castellano...), but acceptably so.

It may already be true that African French has 'diversified' and has different nuances, phraseology and vernacular from Algeria to the Congo and elsewhere.
This is what has happened in Latin America, where some words have different meanings and pronunciation varies markedly from Florida to Tierra del Fuego to European Spanish, but the language is recognisable still and complements its culture.
For example; 'guagua' has at least 4 different meanings from bus to baby to insect depending where you are. 'Coger' can mean something more personal than the dictionary definition 'to catch', epecially when used reflexively.
Then there is the ceta (LA) and theta pronunciation for 'c' and 'z'.
Etc.
Incidentally, if there is a language native to Africa then Swahili must qualify. It has been named one of the world's great languages, with its ability to adapt borrowings from, originally arabic but recently English and other local tongues. They seem to add 'i' to an English or other word, and voila - its Swahili!.

PJB - I thought English was French spoken badly with a few anglo-saxon words thrown in....!

[Maggie G]

"First master your native language, then you can learn other languages. Thereafter, the more languages you learn, the easier it comes (at least for Indo-european tongues)." (Romain)

I'm not even sure if it has to be Indo-european languages. If a child has been brought up bilingual from infancy in two dissimilar languages, say English and Bantu, then I think his brain should be "wired" for any kind of language, shouldn't it?

I am not sure if it would be the same (or as strong) for a child brought up bilingual in two related languages, like French and English, but his brain would still be well-prepared for Japanese or Finnish (maybe).

It's an interesting topic. I wonder if Dot knows anything about this, as she has a degree in linguistics (I think).

[Daniel Strohl]

Maggie G,

Thanks for the compliments regarding my English!

Your grammar explanations are very clear. I will try to get them resident in my (ageing .) little grey cells (we are a fan of Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot on TMC, with David Suchet really excellent, as well as the other actors. Of course, the main interest is not especially the story, but the British environment, the lady dresses "d'époque", the beautiful old timers etc. And Suchet makes a very subtle caricature of French "modesty" - Miss Lemon, Captain Hastings and the Scotland Yard inspector are typically British too ...).

Of course, TMC uses (well) dubbed versions; the original English version is probably even more funny, with Suchet speaking English "à la française" ...

Regarding Villeneuve-Loubet, I had good and sympathetic customers there (Texas Instruments - they have a plant uphill). The last time I visited them was probably in 1995.

As you explain, things changed since that time. May be we will make it down to the Midi this year! If yes, I will let you know.

John Gregory Flynn,

"I thought English was French spoken badly with a few anglo-saxon words thrown in....!

One could as well invert your statement .)

[tomfrog]

You could also have mention the word "challenge", almost all the time said with a moelleux English accent, though it is a French word... ;)
Some people find very funny and very "ringard" to say "chat-lange".

As for cool/moelleux, I will now use the French one, I find it so funny in this situation (and fitting too)

[Jennifer Dawes]

Daniel Strohl: M. Hercule Poirot is very proudly Belgian, not French!

[Romain]

"I'm not even sure if it has to be Indo-european languages. If a child has been brought up bilingual from infancy in two dissimilar languages, say English and Bantu, then I think his brain should be "wired" for any kind of language, shouldn't it ?" Maggie G
Indo-European is the root of all European languages, except Basque, Hungarian and Finn.
To make it short, it grew from Sanscript to Greek to Latin and so forth. This common root is a great advantage when it comes to learn several European languages. My mother tongue being French, I learned Latin, Greek, German. Nevertheless it was of little help when I tried to learn North Vietnamese with its six different tones being the variable of a same word's meaning. Eventually I was never posted to Hanoi (no regrets).

[Valentin]

"To make it short, it grew from Sanscript to Greek to Latin and so forth. "

That's little more than just a theory, unfortunately. A bit like Newton's about the apple falling down from the tree - and with the same kind of means, I'm afraid.

[Valentin]

"I am not sure if it would be the same (or as strong) for a child brought up bilingual in two related languages, like French and English, but his brain would still be well-prepared for Japanese or Finnish (maybe)."

I doubt this is the case in practice. Learn enough to listen to TV evening news maybe, but real life talk can prove a tiny bit more challenging. Or move to the countryside and try the dialects.Many words are common between Napolitan, Catalan, Portuguese and Occitan, yet the use of the words, the expressions, are so culturally influenced that it's hardly comprehensible from one to the other. French already find it impossible to understand (or learn) certain "patois", no matter how well "wired" their brain is.

What I'm saying is that it's all cultural, rather than linguistic

Phonetic/linguistic theories, debates about the Centum-Satem isogloss etc are IMO little more than intellectual wastetime for researchers to justify their salaries. So maybe they'll end up saying that in all languages we can identify logical rules coming from common concepts we all want to communicate - because we're all human DUH; or that there was a common tongue to all mankind, 8000 years ago, before the Babel tower fall. Great.

[Romain]

"To make it short, it grew from Sanskrit to Greek to Latin and so forth. "

[That's little more than just a theory, unfortunately. A bit like Newton's about the apple falling down from the tree - and with the same kind of means, I'm afraid.]

I am afraid Valentin has developped a taste for "Fluffermutter" lol

[dot king]

"It's an interesting topic. I wonder if Dot knows anything about this, as she has a degree in linguistics (I think)." Maggie

Research undertaken amongst families where the parents were of different linguistic backgrounds, found that the "one parent - one language" approach, each parent using hisor her mother tongue to communicate with the child(ren).
it was found that the children did not become confused between languages and always answered in the language used by the parent speaking.
Naturally, a child spends more of it early years with its mother and it had been thought that this might interfere with the learning of the other parental language, but not so.
Similar studies, undertaken with children of bilingual parents in officially bilingual countries (Canada, Belgium, Wales for eg) led to much the same conclusions.
In Switzerland, (I think) almost everyone speaks Scweizerdeutsch, which as I understand it doesn't exist except rarely in its written form. Yet in schools, Höch Deutsch (might need umlaut help here) is the language for teaching, from early years and throughout. I know at least one Swiss person for whom this presented reading difficulties at first, but which were soon overcome - and a is generally known, many Swiss people speak several languages - those of their border-countries and usually good English. (This person speaks six languages, including Scweitzerdeutsch.)
An English friend has two daughters whose father is French - she speaks to them in English and everyone else in French, I code-switch with them and I always get a reply in the language I've used.
And the girls are at the top of their classes at school.
It is also "generally held to be true" that knowledge of two languages does facilitate the learning of others.
There is one condition necessary - the child's home language should be accepted and respected. Maggie mentioned Bantu as an example, and because Bantu is a language used only by Bantus, then there's a strong possibility that a child's proficiency in that language might not count for some (ill-informed, narrow-minded) teachers as contributing to bilingualism. For a while in the uk, Indian and pakistani children wouldn't use their home language as they were made to understand that it was "inferior". Once that idea is swept away and it's accepted that there is no hierarchy of languages, there's no holding the learner back - sometimes despite the teacher!
Oh, I answered Maggie's post before reading to the end of the thread and seeing Romain's post - obviously the New Guard has arrived with more up-to-date and very interesting stuff.

[Valentin]

"I am afraid Valentin has developped a taste for fluffernutter"

Ah Romain, but clichés qui relèvent plutôt de la moutonnite aigüe already turn my stomach upside down, see :))

[Monika]

It is commonly agreed that when you know to speak one foreign language the second is a bit easier, the third again, and so on. Because by using the method of association you can find similarities between that what you have to learn and that what you know already. This doesn't apply necessarily only to vocabulary (I rather think it applies only little to vocabulary) but also to phrase structure, grammar. Of course, learning a fifth language still needs a good amount of work. And it is for sure there are people who are more at ease with learning new languages than others.

I as a natural German speaker I don't mind that my language isn't that widespread. I don't see it under threat. It survived when French was dominant in the aristocratic classes. It survived Napoleonic occupation. As much as English survived the Norman invasion (although the percentage of English words is obviously of French or Latin origin, in a common phrase I find a very large amout of words that are of Germanic origin, not to speak of structure).

Btw. I sometimes come to think that it is an 'atout' to be limited a little bit. There is definitely a difference between European English and the British English, the European being simplier and less elegant. Pidgin English is for sure not the English spoken in America or Britain. Now which English is the standard?

Some argue that the prevalence of English particularly in the music industry is a bad thing for those who want to write their songs in their own language. I, too, would rather say that it can also be seen as an 'atout'. Of course there are great English speaking musicians but most of it is just commercial designed to be sold as much as possible, therefore to please as much as possible throughout the world and therefore brought down to the smallest common denominator. Artists aiming at a smaller audience don't need this. I generally find average French music (except this commercial waste from starac e.a.) much more interesting. I, too, think there are quite interesting German groups around. Of course, nobody beyound the German language borders know of them but who cares. They do good music and they do their music and not market music.

[PJB]

English grammar

There are exceptions to Margaret G's rule. Have you ever gone to Scotland? is correct without implying that one is still present in the country.

Also, an American official saying 'I don't want anyone who has gone to the USSR' would not necessarily be referring to anyone still present in the Soviet Union at the time.

[Maggie G]

PJB,

You say, "There are exceptions to Margaret G's rule."

First of all, that was a very brief tip I gave to Daniel, explaining when NOT to use the present perfect. I didn't give the other half of the equation -- when TO use it. I wasn't planning to swamp the blog with grammar lessons.

Second, the only "rule" I gave was, "If you say WHEN something happened, it's the past." You can't say, "Yesterday the Queen has gone to Lisbon" -- as soon as you say "yesterday", it has to be "the Queen WENT to Lisbon".

Then I gave an EXAMPLE, saying that the sentence "The Queen HAS GONE to Lisbon" implies that she is not back yet, whereas the sentence "The Queen WENT to Lisbon" is referring to some moment in the past (which is quite possibly included in the sentence -- "on Monday", "after Churchill died") (or else is already known from the context.)

I know what you are trying to say, PJB, but you picked a poor example. You say, "Have you ever gone to Scotland?" does not imply that one is still present in the country.

Of course it doesn't -- it's a QUESTION. It's not the same thing at all as "The Queen has gone to Lisbon".

Here is what you are trying to say:

Take two sentences:
Have you ever swum in Lake Superior?
Did you ever swim in Lake Superior?

The first one means "in your life" -- have you ever (in your life) swum in Lake Superior? It's in the present perfect because you are not dead yet -- you are still alive, your life is not the past.

The second one is referring to some specific moment in the past -- did you ever swim in Lake Superior (when you went on that hike through northern Ontario) or (that year when you were a student in Chicago? I know you swam in Lake Michigan, but did you ever swim in Lake Superior?)

(It could also be a question asked by St Peter when you arrive at the pearly gates -- "Did you ever swim in Lake Superior?" Who knows -- it could be important.)

Since PJB has reopened the subject, I will point out to Daniel another small mistake he made:
"As you explain, things changed since that time". (Daniel)

That should be "Things HAVE changed since that time". Why? Because the changes aren't over yet -- things are still changing all the time. Also, you are not referring to a specific moment in the past.

This will confuse you Daniel, so just remember this -- the word SINCE is a big signal that the sentence should be in the present perfect.

The Queen WENT to Spain for the coronation of Juan Carlos.

The Queen HAS GONE to Spain three times SINCE Franco died.

Sarkozy MADE a big mistake when he said, "Casse-toi, pauvre con".

Sarkozy HAS MADE a lot of mistakes SINCE he became president.

Yes, okay. I'll shut up now.

Sorry.

[Monika]

Oh, no, Maggie, I am really glad for your grammar lessons. This makes me realize that I need a good fresh up.

[dot king]

"The Queen HAS GONE to Spain three times SINCE Franco died."

Maggie, May I allow myself a tiny nit-pick please?

I think we'd be more likely to say "The Queen HAS BEEN to Spain three times since Franco died".

Of course, that implies that she's come back. Has she got a villa in Marbella, do you think? ;0

[azloon]

Maggie --

you're grammar lesson is near-encyclopedic (and mostly sensible).

a couple of observations that perhaps not more than three people in the english-speaking world (and none in the non-english-speaking world) will care about:

YOU: "Then I gave an EXAMPLE, saying that the sentence "The Queen HAS GONE to Lisbon" implies that she is not back yet, whereas the sentence "The Queen WENT to Lisbon" is referring to some moment in the past..."

from a strict grammarian point of view, you may be right. i really don' know. but i believe one would not be illiterate, or even incorrect, if one said: "i have gone to spain before' as an equivalent to "i went to spain before." i don't believe either is incorrect. so perhaps 'have gone' and 'went' don't really have anything to do with whether one is still there or not.

Ditto your distinctions about lake superior:

Have you ever swum in Lake Superior?
Did you ever swim in Lake Superior?

same, same, IMNSHO.

if the distinctions you make are supported by some grammar rules i know nothing of, they seem a bit arcane, and not particularly useful. [please let me know if i would have failed english grammar in canadian schools]

nice little piece today on 'les francaises' from departing new york times Paris correspondent:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/23/weekinreview/23sciolino.html?ref=world

CB's parting shots would make interesting reading if indeed they ever occur, which seems unlikely from what he has told us. :)

[dot king]

Azloon "i have gone to spain before'"
see my comment above yours - surely we'd say "i have been to Spain before"?
"I have gone to spain before", seems to beg an ending, eg "I have gone to Spain, before the winter sets in", but it only seems like a note you'd leave for the milkman, or someone, and seems to me to imply something done on the spur of the moment.
But perhaps that's the Atlantic divide at work - if your version is standard American English, then I have no problem with that - it's interesting.
But an English English person would say "I've been to Spain before" (implying, in the past) whereas for us "I have gone to Spain" would mean "i've just gone to Spain", today, on the spur of the moment, or at least very recently and would also imply I was still there.

Eg: Where's your father?
He's gone out for cigarettes.

another eg: Where have you been?
I've been out to get some cigarettes.

In the first "eg", the person is still absent, in the second s/he has returned.

Riveting stuff, isn't it?

[dot king]

Azloon, read the NYT article, very interesting, I can agree with most of it even if it does have a Parisian bias (though if i were to do a similar exercise it would necessarily have a rural bias, so no matter).
Very true about a good butcher - mine will make up a roast, season and spice it more or less, depending on what I ask for, with more or less garlic ditto, roll it string it, weigh it and tell me how long to cook it for and at what temperature. I hardly ever buy meat from anywhere else - and it's all farm and local produce. (We also listen to the same radio station, so when I "fais mes emplettes" we listen companionably.)
The same can be said of the boulanger, we have 4 places to buy bread in our village, 2 are bakers who make bread (of many kinds) and cakes and chocolates on the premises, the 3rd is a dépôt de pain from a small artisanal factory just down the road and their bread is almost as delicious as that of the first two, and the 4th is a dépôt de pain from a chain of supermarkets, used in emergencies only (pour dépanner).
And it's true that if I want to make the briefest and most unnoticeable foray into one or other of the towns around, I angst for ages about what to wear. The only place I ever go in town in trainers or casual wear is to the park by the river to walk the dog as a change from the ramparts and riverside here, or to the vet's - which anyway is next the aforementioned park!
French underwear is VERY expensive - even in the sales - and to go and buy some of course I have to angst about what to wear to go and strip it off in a cabine d'essayage!
Wouldn't have it any other way though . . .

[azloon]

[another eg: Where have you been?
I've been out to get some cigarettes.] Dot

or "i went out to get some cigarettes."

there are so many perfectly acceptable permutations of these statements that the discussion could easily become ridiculous, as it likely already has.

zzzz.....zzzzzz....zzzz....zzz...........

ok, time for everyone to wake up !!!

note to non-native english speakers or aspirants: don't waste a second's time on any of this discussion. none of it matters.

just don't say 'i gone to the store.' or 'i have went to the store.' if you can keep those two straight, you're 'home free.' and practically fluent.

and specifically for french aspirants: speak as well as you can, no matter how poorly. we'll love you anyway (AND likely understand you a bit).

:)

[Valentin]

"speak as well as you can, no matter how poorly. we'll love you anyway"

It would seem as English is little more than a mere communication tool. If by miracle the deaf became majority, I suspect Azloon will convert to gesture language with no remorse at all.
Seriously, some of us might care about the subtleties of the English language, about going beyond pidgin level, to the real meaning behind the words and the reason for it. Exploring a foreign language can be a near magical experience for the interested soul.
Back to sleep...

[Romain]

Azloon
From the N.Y Times departing correspondent's article, I guess Paris is like Dany Boon's Nord-Pas de Calais for the French.
Foreign correspondents break-up in tears twice : once upon arrival in Paris, once upon departure.

[Maggie G]

Azloon,

Those grammar "lessons" I was giving have nothing to do with the education systems in Canada or the United States. I learned that stuff from teaching English to French kids. You learn all kinds of stuff about your own language that you never even thought about before when you learn a foreign language, or when you teach your own language to a foreigner.

Did you notice that I said to Daniel that that stuff didn't make any difference to our understanding of what he's telling us? I said it was only if he wanted to be absolutely technically correct. Or if you want to GET A GOOD MARK IN AN EXAM.

You've heard me talk before about French education with its dictées and zeros. Well, it's the same thing with English. French teachers just love to jump on all the small technical mistakes and give their students zero in English.

If you want to get a good mark in English, you have to know when to use the simple past and when to use the present perfect. Even if you, Azloon,say that none of it matters, and that not more than three people in the English-speaking world care about it.

I say it doesn't matter too. When kids come to me for help in English (I just teach them at home -- it isn't a proper job) I usually ask, "So what do you want -- to learn to speak English, or to get a good mark in the exam? Because it isn't necessarily the same thing."

I've helped a lot of boys especially, who had never got higher than 2 or 3 in English, to become pretty fluent in speaking and making themselves understood, and even to understand the grammar so they can get through the exams.

The French care a lot about accuracy. Sometimes it seems to me that in the schools they consider English more as some kind of math than as a language.

Don't worry, Azloon, I didn't get any of that "encyclopedic" knowledge from the Canadian education system as a child.

So you can go jump in the lake. Lake Superior or Lake Michigan or Lake Nipigon or Lake Athabaska or any other lake you care to pick. Hopefully one with a lot of loons.

[dot king]

Maggie, Azloon, nor did I want to turn this into an on-going argument with value-judgements attached. I was just pointing out some possible differences in usage, with an explanation for anyone who needed/wanted it. And asking a question about whether it was a difference in usage that can be explained by the "Atlantic divide".
(I have now decided that "The Queen has TRAVELLED to Spain before." solves all our misgivings about "has gone" and "has been", or substitute any other suitable verb.)

Maggie, you're right about the difference between learning a language to be able to pass an exam and learning it enough to be able to communicate.
The English teachers where I work often take marks off the English children's work, not because they've written bad English (possibly out of boredom), but because the exercise was wanting one ond ONLY one construction.
I've noticed too, that in both French "grammaire pure" exercises and ESL ones, the sentences they work on often don't have any sense to them once the "rule" is applied, they are just for grammatical acrobatics. (Such fun!)
Sometimes a teacher will be generous with the English kids in their own language on the grounds that they know a different, and a just-as-acceptable construction, but more often than not, the judgement falls "they don't even know their own language!"

And I would always think that an ESL teacher knows more about "pure" English grammar than I do - it's quite a different exercise from teaching English Lang and Lit to native speakers.

PS Azloon, I once wrote in someone's report "likes to catch up on his sleep in French lessons" - I see I haven't lost my touch!

[Lily]

"The Queen has TRAVELLED to Spain before."

Did she take her backpack? Where did she stay?

So, Sarko and Carla are travelling to England...

:) To my foreign ears, 'travel' sounds like a lot of unofficial fun; it doesn't carry the weight of going on a state-visit. (?)

[dot king]

"Did she take her backpack? Where did she stay?" Lily

I believe she has a tasteful post-modernist villa in Marbella (this is a joke BTW) and she flew with British Airways (with whom she HAS FLOWN or HAS TRAVELLED to Spain before)!
There's always an equerry handy to carry Her Madge's backpack.

Seriously, how about:

"Mr and Mme Sarkozy will be travelling (or "are travelling") to England for a State visit, as guests of Her Royal Majesty Elizabeth II."

Much depends on the way you elaborate - I only used The Queen to take up Maggie's example - trying (in vain) to keep things simple. :§

BTW we versatile anglophones have made a verb out of "backpack", we can say:
"I'm backpacking this year, I could do with the air and the exercise."
(Though I doubt this will be the case for HRM, even in the wilds of Balmoral.)

[Lily]

"Mr and Mme Sarkozy will be travelling (or "are travelling") to England for a State visit, as guests of Her Royal Majesty Elizabeth II." (Dot)

Now, this sounds serious. It will probably take them two days by carriage to get to London :) -

(I'm also just nit-picking for the fun of it ;))

[Seriously, some of us might care about the subtleties of the English language, about going beyond pidgin level, to the real meaning behind the words and the reason for it. Exploring a foreign language can be a near magical experience for the interested soul.] Valentin

ok monsieur magical mystery man, go ahead and find dubious distinctions that have zero value in practical english speech, then convince yourself that you have found hidden linguistic treasure. see if i care. :)

a modest memorization proposal:

i went to spain.

i went to spain last year.

i have been to spain.

i was in spain last year.

i have gone to spain (where i presently am).

where have you been? i have been in/to spain

or i went to spain.

does it rain in spain. yes, the rain in spain falls mainly in the plain. (in american usage, would more likely be 'on the plain.').

ok, now, les garcons et les jeunes filles, commencer a parler !

Maggie, i am quite certain you are an excellent teacher of english to french students. but personally, i wouldn't care to indulge french academic perfectionist inclination with usage distinctions that have the potential to render mute many insecure aspiring english speakers.

also, by doing this, you are reinforcing an entrenched conservatism that no longer exists in the countries which actually speak the language you are teaching.

we're not in kansas anymore.

did you hear that Dorothy? :)

Maggie, i will be on lake superior this summer but won't jump in because it's too cold.

my preference is el senote (sinkhole) i swam in last week in Yucatan with constant water temps around 75F. no loons however. except for me and my friends (oops. my friends and I)