France and Britain clash over Beijing Olympics

Europe is in a tangle over this summer's Olympic games in Beijing.  Foreign Ministers of the Union are trying to reach a consensus today in Slovenia over the matter of using them to apply pressure on China. They will not manage because opinion is divided. This is a good moment to find out what readers of this blog think.

France and Britain have taken opposite sides, as President Nicolas Sarkozy and Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, made clear in London on Thursday. For Brown there is no question of even thinking about a boycott or staying away from the opening ceremony. The Olympics are purely about sport and London wants the best games possible, not least because it fears trouble when it hosts them in 2012. Sarkozy, however, is threatening to cancel his trip to the opening ceremony unless Beijing mends its ways, towards Tibet in particular.

There are other European approaches. In Poland, Donald Tusk, the Prime Minister, has canceled his trip to Beijing and he urged other democratic politicians to do the same. Germany's Angela Merkel said that she is not going to the ceremony but had never intended to.

It's all a bit of a mess. The subject produced lively argument in a French TV show in which I took part today (Canal+ here. Click on 'L'émission de la semaine). In France, a country that prides itself on its sensitivity to human rights, the political world, media and public favour some gesture of disapproval towards Beijing's conduct in Tibet and to register distaste over the nature of the Chinese regime. They do not support a sporting boycott but a CSA opinion poll this week showed that 53 percent want national leaders to stay away from the opening ceremony. Sarkozy's threat was the least he could do after two weeks of public pressure. Despite the posturing, it is obvious that he will turn up in Beijing in August because he is as reluctant to incur Chinese displeasure as other leaders with heavy commercial interests at stake. A campaign for boycotting French goods is already under way at a site on SOHU.com, one of the big Chinese internet portals.

For the moment, though, France will make a little trouble. When French-led protesters flashed a banner at the lighting of the Olympic torch in Athens, the act was largely cheered here. It was seen as a grain of sand in the Chinese propaganda machine and there will be a lot more protests when the torch reaches Paris. Leading politicians from the Socialist opposition will take part. 

The same incident was treated quite differently in the British media. They talked of "anti-China protesters" disrupting the Athens ceremony and they ran headlines on "fears" for the torch's passage through London. 

The Times delivered an unequivocal endorsement of the games in an editorial today: "The newspaper ardently opposes any suggestion of a boycott, which would be unfair to the athletes ... self-defeating for those who want to see greater freedom in China and malicious towards a country and a people who have traveled so far to celebrate their achievements as a nation and their re-engagement with the world." 

Our editorial was a response to an internet campaign in China against Jane Macartney, our Beijing correspondent. She reports today that she has become the most hated person in the country after the Government cited a Times commentator (not her) who had compared the Beijing Olympics to Nazi Germany's 1936 games.

In her report, Macartney, a Mandarin speaker who knows the country well,  makes a strong anti-boycott case: The Chinese see the games as "a moment when they want to celebrate, with the world, their achievements, development and prosperity of the past three decades." 

As no expert on China I bow to those with knowledge, but I recall that similar arguments were used about the Moscow Olympics of 1980. President Jimmy Carter and Margaret Thatcher, the US and British leaders of the time, led a sporting boycott that caused misery for the sportsmen and turned the games into a fiasco. That prompted a less effective retaliation by the Soviet bloc against the 1984 Los Angeles games. The Russians were understandably angry in 1980, but the message of international disapproval struck home. I was in Moscow in the run-up to those games and then for three years in the aftermath. The boycott -- ostensibly over the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan --  added to the pressure that eventually unraveled the Soviet Union and ended the cold war.

Those were other times. China is a whole different story and I am not naive. But there is a similarity. Moscow's ruling communist party regarded the 1980 games primarily as a vehicle for political propaganda. They invested in them massively as a showcase for the Soviet state. Beijing's communist government is doing the same for its system.

I read in the US media today that Coca Cola and the other big Beijing games sponsors are now worried about possible damage to their image from their association with China's great event. It's odd that they did not see this coming a long time ago. 

Comments

[Jorg Andersen]

You are right. It's a mess. The Olympic Comitee should never have given these games to China. But the games have been about politics for decades. Remember the American athletes protesting against their own country at the Mexico games in 1968. It's pathetic seeing Britain saying the games are just about sport. They have been political since Hitler's games in 1936 at least.

[stephen Bull]

There was a Mephistophelian pact made when the IOC gave Peking the Olympics.
Take a long spoon.

[Mary Fernandez]

Jimmy Carter, not Ronald Reagan, led the boycott of the Olympics on the U.S. side in 1980. Ronald Reagan did not become President until 1981.

[stephen Bull]

Quote" The boycott -- ostensibly over the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan -- added to the pressure that eventually unraveled the Soviet Union and ended the cold war."

Does anyone really think that a boycott of the opening ceremony will bring down or unravel China.
The one was collapsing; the other is doing quite well

[Daniel Strohl]

"The Olympics are purely about sport".

Yes, this is true. One should not mix up everything. And almost no (West) European country is in a position to teach lessons regarding "colonialism", at least if they have the decency to look back to their own more or less recent history.

[Ian H. Young]

A few half-hearted "boycotts" of the opening ceremony will be like water off a duck's back to the Chinese, and probably counter-productive in terms of encouraging greater freedom (cf. the US 'boycott' of Cuba during decades; all that achieved was to bolster and entrench Castro's stranglehold on the island). If real disapproval is to be shown, then the 'disapprovers' must have the courage of their convictions and enforce a total boycott; but that would probably cost a few jobs, wouldn't it!?

[John]

Not only the opening ceremony should be boycotted, but if the athletes have any moral sense they should also boycott the sporting events themselves. It should be left to each individual athlete to decide in all conscience.

As for China, I happen to speak Mandarin, I have studied the history and culture of China for many years, I know the country better than the average Westerner, and I also have mainland Chinese friends. I can give these few bits: 99% of mainland Chinese people think Tibet rightfully belongs to China, and that it has always been part of China, at least since the 8th century, which is completely wrong historically, but I guess the official brainwashing has been quite efficient. Even when I talked to very educated mainland Chinese friends who have lived for many years in the US, they have only at long length reluctantly agreed that Tibet is somehow being occupied and colonized. The subject is very sensitive and there's no hope to have the majority of Chinese people change attitude on this subject. For them Tibet belongs as rightfully to China as French people thought Algeria belonged rightfully to France in 1954. It would take many years of a bloody war of independence to make them change their mind, but the Dalai Lama is opposed to violence, so I doubt they will change their mind anytime soon.

At the same time, Chinese people are very proud of their history, and proud of their recovered status in the world community, that's why I think boycotting the games would have a great impact. It would infuriate some Chinese who would think it's yet another plot by the West to diminish them and thwart their comeback on the world stage, but it would make many other Chinese people think. They, especially the educated ones who travel abroad, would realize that as long as there is this totalitarian regime in Beijing, they can't expect to see their country fully accepted as a respectable partner by the rest of the world. Beyond the rhetoric, I think many educated mainland Chinese people are sensitive to that. We have to make a point that economic achievements is not all that matters. Boycotting the games played a role in the Soviet Union as Charles Bremner pointed out, it struck home. Boycotting the Beijing games would have a similar impact on the moderate and educated layer of the Chinese population.

Unfortunately with Bush and Brown in power, there's no hope that any boycott will happen. Apparently it's easier to invade Iraq than boycott olympic games in China. It's thus left to the athletes to show that there's more than glory and money, there's also moral principles and self-respect. I hope many of them will decide to boycott the games (l'espoir fait vivre).

[azloon]

Where were all these boycotters when China celebrated the 45th anniversary of the 'liberation' of Tibet several years ago? so, they've had forty-five (!!) years to get on Richard Gere's bandwagon but have waited until now when the cause is nearly lost? (i was in China and forbidden, as an american, along with Taiwanese nationals, from traveling to Tibet during the ceremonies).

The Dalai Lama's predecessor (the 13th), in his will, in 1932, well before China's assault on Tibet, predicted the eventual destruction of Tibetan buddhist culture by the Chinese. He was prescient.

Tibet's ancient and ineffective political system hasn't helped it in its own defense, nor has it's total lack of preparation for challenges of the 20th century. arch-conservative elements in Tibet have subverted efforts by more progressive Tibetans to liberalize and modernize. Thus, Tibet has contributed mightily to its own downfall.

i suppose it is dreamy notions about Buddhist practice in Tibet that makes it such a noble cause for prosperous, educated americans and europeans, locked in materialist modernism, which is not totally dissimilar to the 'noble savage' notion of europeans toward american indians in the 19th century.

The current Dalai Lama, a sort of Forrest Gump-like defender of Tibet and Buddhism, is not a political leader in the true sense of term. he's a nice guy, though. and admirable in his values. and he has a few good ideas for changing, modernizing, the way buddhism is interpreted in Tibet. but he may be too late. the chinese are already grooming their own candidate to succeed him.

The best Tibet can hope for, imo, is freedom of worship under totalitarian chinese rule. and the chinese seem to be willing to go this far. it is actually quite 'chic' to be a buddhist these days in beijing and shanghai among wealthy yuppies (or at least 'talk the game").

france celebrated franco-chinese relations two years ago by allowing china to declare 2006 the Year of France, and promoted many cultural exchanges. not a peep heard from anyone, u.s. or europe, about Tibet back then. commerce, my friend, commerce.

this boycott stuff is all a big game, and as we know, sarko is a big game player. but i'm afraid, he really has no clue about the depth of the waters he's wading into.

don't be surprised if sarko, shameless self-promoter, reverses course and emerges from a dark tunnel of the olympic stadium, torch held high, to light the olympic flame.

I say, Let the Games Begin !!

:)

[K. Weston]

Fundamental Principal of the Olympic Movement #5: "Any form of discrimination with regard to a country or a person on grounds of race, religion,politics, gender or otherwise is incompatible with belonging to the Olympic Movement."

In other words, a boycott should be totally uneccessary. The IOC should order that the Olympic Flame be carried to the Chinese border ... and promptly extinguished in a symbolic bowl of blood donated by the Tibetan monks.

Why won't they? ... money.

[Romain]

The cowardly attitude of all countries towards the small Burma, during the rebellion, gave leeway to China to behave like she always did. That boycott battle was lost there. The May 1968 ancient glory Daniel Cohn Bendit "Danny le rouge" said you should go there and create havoc (foutre le bordel), I believe the guy is right. Only people with no vested interest in politics and merchandising can do something about it.
France Television said they would not show the olympics if China used slightly differed broadcasting to cover up disruptions. I hope they will stick to their word.

[colin grayson]

well , I did try to watch the canal+ clip to hear charles' french accent , but my so-called broadband connection wouldn't play it [ any questions regarding the technicalities of broadband in la lozere to charles please ]
however I did catch just a glimpse of le petit nicolas walking alongside his new wife , and he was clearly at least 10cm taller than her ; have I missed something here?

[Monika]

I am actually quite devided about this issue.
On one hand, people and countries who disagree with China's treatment of Tibet shouldn't play a role in their propaganda effort. And that's what the OG will be knowing how important it is for the Chinese to have a good image. They shouldn't show support for the Chinese government.
On the other hand the Dalai Lama says that the games should not be boycotted and if any has a right to speak on behalf of the Tibetian people, it is probably him. Furthermore, the games might provide an occasion for shown protest by visitors, athletes and politicians, if they dare to.

So it is probably ok if the athletes go but the politicians stay at home.

[dot king]

No half-measures.
I heard someone say on a TV discussion earlier this week that the Olympic Games should be held in Greece, once every four years. That sounded like the best common-sense solution to this and future problems where politics and sport become mixed up.
It's the clash of cultures again, isn't it? We have young sportsmen and women from all over the world for whom the Olympics are their raison d'être. They train, they prepare, they consecrate several hours each day to put in their best performance, and the watch their respective countries reap the glory of their achivements.
In other parts of the world we have famine, wars, children who don't get an education, and whose only sport might be to spend several hours each day bringing water or tending animals, or begging, or involved in slave labour (maybe making expensive sportswear for the well-heeled, as we've seen also this week).
Then we have countries or provinces under oppression, as in he present case of Tibet, which, I fear, if it weren't for the Games being held in China, we wouldn't be hearing so much about it.
What can we do?
Can we expect our athletes to accept the disappointment of not taking part? Well, yes, if it will make any difference to anything. Freedom is more important medals, world and Olympic records, personal bests - isn't it? More important than just "taking part" even? Isn't it?

Interesting to see that some of the athletes are keen to make some form of protest in the opening ceremony, but boycotting and protesting won't make any difference.
And in spite of all the coverage, there could well be a majority of athletes who won't be very politically "switched on" and might not fully realise what's going on in Tibet and what that has to do with China. For an example we just have to think back to Laure Manaudou's reaction when interviewed about the recent closure of the Arena factory in Tonneins. She said "Euh . . " and not much else. Clearly she had either been instructed not to comment, or she just plain didn't see what it had to do with her, or didn't know.

China has become a leading world economic power, and is going from strength to strength. They don't need our approval and/or disapproval. They're doing it their way, and don't seem to see that they have any lessons to learn from the Rest of th World.
A doctor friend who does occasional humanitarian missions in Africa told me that the Chinese are undertaking building and other projects and are using Chinese prisoners as labourers. When she told me this on her return from a mission just over a year ago, I thought: this will be a huge political scandal when it becomes more common knowledge. Not a murmur have I heard from anywhere. And yet it must be known. Is there a conspiracy of silence where China is concerned - has China become THAT influential?

If it were possible to do so at short notice, I would say, cancel the Chinese Olympics and transfer them to Greece, where Olympic facilities exist already and have done with it, or put them off until next year. Just get them out of China - now there would be a REAL message to the oppressors.
That way, the whole sporting world could show its disapproval, no need to go to Pekin and "foutre le bordel" (could be dangerous - DKB wasn't too specific about what he meant) and we can't expect that of athletes, they have other priorities.
Let the politicians and the financiers sort out their finer feelings (if they have any) with China, it's their affair, not the athletes'.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

I agree with what Dot King suggests: The games should be held in Greece. To hold them anywhere else causes political trouble and financial jealousy. London "designers" and "consultants" have already lined their pockets with a ridiculous "new" Olympic symbol, when we have a perectly good five-ring symbol. The scream has not yet been heard from the London ratepayers who are footing the bill for the squanderbugs and get-rich-quick builders etc cashing in on a a sporting event. The problem in the UK is the employment of incompetent people in jobs they cannot handle: i.e. the airport chaos this week, the shambles on the railways and the Post Office etc. Plus incompetent bosses awarding themselves million pound bonuses on top of half million pond salaries.
Nationalism, religion and greed are the three enemies of mankind and cause all the wars. I suggested to Mayor Lingstone that he hold the games without flags on display! A bas le Nationalism! I can dream, can't I? I also suggested a statue of Juan Pujol, the Spanish agent who persuaded the Germans to shorten the range of their rockets so that many fell in the fields of Kent (see aerial photos of the craters) instead of annihilating London. Amazingly Herbert Morrison objected to M.I.5 "playing God", and tried to stop them.
The good news is that Ken's men have put Pujol on the long list of suggestions. The Spaniard who saved London deserves it, as he also fooled them on the D-day landings, Hitler (who had awarded him the Iron Cross) believing to the very end it would be Calais and not Normandy.

[azloon]

John's lengthy comments are well worth noting, and true.

but it is just showboating for the west, now, after years of total neglect of the subject, to jump on some wayward crusade which won't have the desired effect.

the dalai lama is correct, the games shouldn't be boycotted. the types of high-level government initiatives, underway right now, to bring attention to the matter without causing the chinese to 'lose face,' are the proper course, imo.

as John well knows, in china, everything is about 'face.'

also, avoiding pissing off the Dragon isn't a bad idea either. i think we are dealing with with a country which will turn out to be the new super-bully of the latter half of the 21st century.

on the bright side, the u.s. will by then be joining europe among nation-states experiencing the decline of their hegemony, and we can finally commiserate together.

I've flown in his private jet with the man who singlehandedly saved the Moscow Olympics...quite fun. FYI, passengers of private jets, even when they are the guests of well-known international crooks, are not subjected to any kind of controls at Le Bourget airport. That's a useful bit of info, I think.
Regarding these Games - well everyone knew years ago that it wasn't a good idea to give the Games to China, didn't they?

[john o'doe]

Where were the French protesters back in November when Sarko (Bonjour M Buzz Princin) promised the Chinese that he would attend the Olympics if invited? Where were they when he stated that France recognises that Tibet is a part of China but he hoped they would ease up a little on the cultural stranglehold?
Did nobody see he was crossing his fingers behind his back?
He can't possibly boycott the opening ceremony now as this would show the Chinese that he is not a man to be trusted, not a man you can do nuclear power business with.

[Romain]

Colin Grayson
Tip
You can download the show from Canal+ website with RealPlayer, and then view it. The blog is called : "un café,un blog".

[Paul]

I agree with the idea to locate the games in Greece permanently, if that's what the Greeks want.

But the so-called Olympic Games are surely a political game, and always have been in their modern history. Sport should be amateur and not get in the way of more important things. Instead, they are used by politicians as a kind of conjuror's cloak to bemuse us all. Why can't we see this, and treat them with the contempt they deserve? In the end, it's the vulgarity of it all that really offends.

[Judith]

I would be surprised if there were much boycotting of the Olympics in Beijing.
The economic power of China is too great. Australia's recent economic boom has been generated by China's buying resources from us.
The US economy is a bit shaky at the moment and would be very sensitive to any sale by China of its dollar reserves. Wasn't Nicolas Sarkozy recently over trying to sell airbuses to China? The French community are likely to be very cross with him if contracts are lost or don't materialise and more workers are laid off.
Athletes won't be keen to boycott. So many have trained with the goal of competing at these Olympics. All these world records currently being broken in swimming is an indication of how close to their peaks they are. Years of training, grindingly hard work and sacrifices would have been for nothing. Many of them will be past their prime by the London Olympics.
China may be sensitive and even a bit responsive to criticism during the next few months. I am sure that there are a few heads of government who would be aware that China will long remember the countries that embarrass them.

[john e walker]

Mr Bremner, You wrote: "I recall that similar arguments were used about the Moscow Olympics of 1980. President Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, the US and British leaders of the time, led a sporting boycott.."

Your memory is flawed on two counts: (1) Reagan was not yet the US President (he took office in January 1981, but the boycott was of the 1980 summer Olympics); it was Jimmy Carter who made the decision that the US would not attend. (2) The UK did allow its athletes to compete, so Dame Thatcher can hardly be credited with leading a boycott.

[Yes on 1) Of course you're right. I corrected the Reagan/Carter mistake on Saturday within an hour of posting after another reader reminded me, but the re-post did not register in the Typepad hosting system. 2) Thatcher was one of the most vociferous campaigners for the boycott. The fact that Seb Coe and the other athletes did not heed her did not change this. She did not order a stay at home, as Carter did. CB]

[Mary Fernandez]

After all these decades of doing nothing but putting 'Free Tibet' bumper stickers on cars, it's a bit ridiculous to make a big stink now. Tibetan culture has been forcibly eroded over time.

[richard jones]

T5 Heathrow dores flights to China right! No problem for ower Gordon then. He will still be waiting in T5 when the Olympic flame lights up in Beijing.
To Azloon our mandarin. Can you explain how Peking got to be Beijing and how the old transliteration could have been so bad for so long? Secondly I suspect you work in the UN Geneva and are a very gifted musician.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

My letter in The Times on Saturday "Literary Vandalism" brought a call that said libraries have a policy: if a book is not taken out in the past six months, it is removed, sold for £1 or £2 or destroyed. Hitler's degenerates burnt the books and now we have councillors and librarians using books for "land-fill". Are there any other countries where the libraries behave like this and get way with it?

[PAIR (prudish anglo-saxon i'd like to ridicule)]

Richard Jones:" Neehah" to you in Greece from rural Arizona, quite far from Geneva (though i have a wonderful friend near there, who is connected to the UN, and whom i plan to visit before too long). i am not the mandarin speaker. that's John, i believe. my greeting represents the totality of my mandarin vocabulary (though chinese language on my long list of subjects to study but likely will remain on that list thru the remainder of my lifetime)

re beijing vs. peking (google doesn't come up with much good stuff on this subject so i am going to go on memory (my 'personal' google which is rapidly deteriorating, and wasn't so hot to begin with).

the triumphant communists around 1949 started to get on this 'kick' about western spelling/pronunciation of chinese place names. wikipedia says it was in the early 1980s that these new pronunciations were 'mandated' in any written material that circulated within china. but i remember that my father, a journalist, told me that the associated press (AP) and united press international (UPI) adopted an official position on this well before the 1980s, perhaps as early as the late 1950s or early 60s.

i remember how startling it was to hear radio announcers say 'beijing' one day after saying peking the day before. it was quite confusing, though a story about the changes was reported in the newspapers (which people actually read back then).

I have a chinese friend whose mother attended Peking University's prestigious school of music, pre-revolution, who told me that the university is still referred to by the old name, as is peking duck, and the peking opera. anyone know if this still holds true?

the mother was eventually driven out of china by mao's gorilla's (her husband was abducted and the family never discovered his likely fate) and taught music in the california community college system for many years before returning recently to live to china. i helped her get her u.s. social security check sent to china by going with her daughter to the u.s. embassy, and after breaking through the gigantic crowd gathered in front (looking for visas) went in and spoke to someone who set the whole thing up. sometimes, a u.s. passport helps.

ah, a gifted musician. would that it were so. i do, though, have a pretty good itunes music library, and have put together some interesting playlists. does that count? how does 'MC Loon' sound?
:)

[PAIR (prudish anglo-saxon i'd like to ridicule)]

Five Reasons Why I Love the Olympics and the Opening Ceremonies

1. Even in it's somewhat degraded/commercial form, the Olympics and the Opening ceremonies is one of the great emotional spectacles of earth's people. The closing ceremonies aren't chopped liver, either.

2. The opening ceremonies, with gorgeously dressed male and female sportsmen from every spot on the globe, delight by walking ensemble, smiling and waving cheerfully to the people of all countries, and saluting their heads of state, Is there a more wonderful sight to behold, a better example of human joy and cooperation, anytime, anywhere in our galaxy? (Beethoven's Ode to Joy should be the official tune of the opening ceremonies). don't you get chills down your spine watching this? if you don't, you're heartless.

3. While Nicholas Sarkozy and George Bush were plotting and scheming to gain the ultimate in human political control, anonymous athletes in far-flung outposts of civilization were training tirelessly in the hope of shining before the eyes of the world. do we want to give NS and his ilk the satisfaction of using this marvelous event for their own showboating purposes when other avenues to accomplish the same thing have been deliberately ignored for decades? not me.

4. Listening the national anthems of France, Russia, China, Kenya, Germany, Slovenia while watching these superb athletes receive their medals is a heart-wrenchingly beautiful moment. Could a human being be more proud than at the moment a medal is awarded in the name of his country? i doubt it.

5. The world is unfortunately FUBARed in many respects (google it). The Olympics are a moment, if only a moment, a short period, in which we can imagine a world of cooperation and peace. do we want to destroy this moment? i don't.

[Pierre Bernardi]

That's éhontée, Charles - literally, without shame. By the way, "Vous êtes écossais, mais c'est pas grave!" Ha!! Congrats for referring to Brits, not Anglais. When the French do it, they always hark back to Joan of Arc (excellent documentary on Arte).

Dorothea's a dude! "Je n'irais pas passer mes vacances en Allemagne!"

Fun programme!

Britain and France need each other.

Love Canal Four.

[Yes, Pierre: I knew it was ehontée as soon as I said the wrong word. TV does that. You have a split second to come up with the words and often the mouth runs ahead of the brain. CB]

[Adrienne in NJ]

Mr. Bremer -

In regards to this statement on your blog, "This is a good moment to find out what readers of this blog think."

I say Yahoo For the French. They've done the right thing. Albeit for the wrong reason.
This issue of boycotting the Chinese Olympics from an American Point of View goes beyond Tibet. I know many Johnny Come Latelys throughout the world are Tsk Tsking China for their recent behavior - but I've personally been against the US's involvement for several years. It's the same reason I won't use my company's 401K (Fidelity).
D-a-r-f-u-r. Also known as, Yet Another Genocide. They're Africans so they don't count. So you want to know what your readers think?

Tibet and Human Rights Abuses - Who Cares.
Genocide in Darfur-The United Nations is weak and worthless and no wonder Bush and Co. ran right over them. Any bully with a gun can and does get away with murder with that group of yo-yo's. I say dissolve it since it's just as stupid as the League of Nations. What's the point? Really, someone tell me please. First Armenia, then Hitler, Cambodia, Gassed Kurds, Rwanda, Darfur, Balkans, the murder of Native Peoples (I'm part Cherokee so I'll throw it out there) in the United States.
You know - the US economy is so bad right now - how much worse can it be made if China gets mad at the US. Seriously? How bad could it be.
As an addition - not totally off topic. The man who was the center of the movie The Killing Fields died yesterday here in NJ. I would have really liked to have seen him weigh in on this topic.

[Valentin]

"This is a good moment to find out what readers of this blog think." (CB)

Well...

"similar arguments were used about the Moscow Olympics of 1980 ...but the message of international disapproval struck home"

Agree 110%.

"Moscow's ruling communist party regarded the 1980 games primarily as a vehicle for political propaganda. ... Beijing's communist government is doing the same for its system."

I could not put it better.

I'm afraid these games are quite compromised already, boycott or not. It's not the first time Chinese bring over tanks and cut the "rebelled" place off. I guess things are obvious already, and the "olympic spirit" - just gone with the wind.

[dot king]

(Beethoven's Ode to Joy should be the official tune of the opening ceremonies)(Azloon, sorry PAIR)
This is also the European Anthem, so clearly wouldn't do - could upset some non-European nations and could be interpreted as being politically motivated.

"The Olympics are a moment, if only a moment, a short period, in which we can imagine a world of cooperation and peace." (Azloon, sorry PAIR)
So what's wrong with having them somewhere where there is peace? Instead of their being a moveable feast every four years in the interests of fat nuclear and other contracts, why not have a fixed venue to look forward to - ideally and symbolically Greece. Then everyone knows that BIG BUSINESS can't influence the venue, nor can political "principles".

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

[This is also the European Anthem] Dot re Ode to Joy

why in the hell does europe need an anthem?

do you wake up in the morning and say, 'thank god i'm a european?'

europeans can't agree about anything.

a tad ironic, isn't it, that such a beautiful piece of music has been designated to celebrate this disharmony?

perhaps the antarctic needs one too. and what about asia? come to think of it, maybe the southern hemisphere should have one.

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

[on the bright side, the u.s. will by then be joining europe among nation-states experiencing the decline of their hegemony, and we can finally commiserate together] earlier comment

more on this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/31/opinion/31cohen.html?em&ex=1207108800&en=d44e12534e34a533&ei=5087%0A

[Lily]

This debate here is fascinating; full of contradictory truth and a sense of what lies ahead.

Azloon,

Thanks for the EXCELLENT link.

So, we'll be tomorrow's cheap labour. Factories will be relocated to the US and Europe, and Asia will be first not only in technological, intellectual and subsequently spiritual (?) and political (!) matters but also with regards to the environment.

We, in the old and passing world, are all advised to study this mysteriously successful 'Asian mind' more, including culture and language(s).

[Lily]

"Literary Vandalism" (Peter Kinsley)

Peter,

Are you afraid of the “burning” of YOUR books? ;)

I don’t think you can liken modern library practices to Hitler’s book burning. One has nothing to do with the other. Books that disappear from the book-shelves today aren't removed because they are forbidden. They disappear because of lack of interest in them, because there is more recent, other, different literature people are more interested in. If you look for a book, you will always be able to find it again; there will be at least ONE copy somewhere.

The practice to allow books only six months before being removed seems exaggerated to me. Two years – would seem more reasonable to me. I don’t think that classical works will ever be removed, even if they aren’t read. This will likely concern contemporary literature and out-dated non-fiction only which seems okay to me.

We communicate with books and about books but if the message a book carries doesn’t interest anymore, its time could well be over, or else, there would be continued demand for/interest in it.

What you call ‘literary vandalism’ is an adaptation to requirements of modern libraries where people live with books. If the ‘vandalised’ books could be kept in archives instead of filling land, this might be preferable. On the other hand, they are first put on sale, have thus an opportunity to continue to circulate, and why keep dead words in archives?

Books that aren’t read – are dead. They will feed bugs and eventually fall apart. …

If they are destined to live on, they will.

[dot king]

"why in the hell does europe need an anthem?

do you wake up in the morning and say, 'thank god i'm a european?'"
Azloon/rob furlong)

now now, I'm not personally responsible for it you know, it was done without prior consultation, un fait accompli as they say.
I was only passing on information - if I hadn't then sure as eggs, someone else would've.
Do you wake up in the morning and say "thank god I'm an American" - you've got to be kidding! :)

[PJB]

John, try replacing 'Algeria' with 'Brittany' in your analysis.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

LILY: Read my replies (2) to today's letter in The Times re libraries sending books to land fills.

[Pierre Bernardi]

Azloon, I paused when I reached this line in Roger Cohen's article: "America’s little dose of socialism from Ben Bernanke and Hank Paulson might stave off the worst but cannot halt the trend." Regulating financial markets has nothing to do with socialism - otherwise we should scrap the central banks.

Anyway, socialism doens't stand a chance. The market is far too strong. Sox and basle regulations were intended to safeguard banks’ assets. What happened? The world invented hedge funds.

The soviet union didn’t fail because of socialism – look at France, Sweden and Denmark with their storming figures for GDP. It failed because it chose to be a war economy.

Why does this matter ? Because the Bush II presidency has been a masterclass in paranoia.

One of the consequences of paranoia is delusion. It ought to be clear to most mainstream American economists that loss of confidence, at present, is the greatest risk facing the US economy. It ought to be clear that every time the dollar drops a cent against the euro, that confidence erodes a little more. For all the uncertainties of the yield curve, the one predictable relationship would appear to be the inverse one between Fed rates and the dollar. If the greatest risk is the weakness of the dollar, it would appear that the action most calculated to cause damage to the US economy would be a reduction in those interest rates. But the fed stubbornly drops its rates. Why? Because in a state of paranoia, popularity counts above all else. And there is no action calculated to draw more cheers from Wall Street than a drop in central interest rates.

In this state of paranoia the president’s court of economists draws strength from its influence over the markets, via the Fed, and the markets feed their delusion on the plaudits they receive from the court of economists. So the circle feeds upon itself. Meanwhile, confidence ebbs from the system.

As paranoia feeds on paranoia, so delusion feeds on delusion. A warning to the US, lest your next president assume the mantle of his predecssor...

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

Do you wake up in the morning and say "thank god I'm an American" - you've got to be kidding! :) Dot

at my age, i am just happy to wake up.

in olympic parlance, every new day in my blessed life is a victory lap.

[peter Mason]

Dot [re: Ode to Joy]

I suspect that many this side of the Channel would view the playing of 'Ode to Joy' as unacceptable due to it's EU anthem status.

Peter/Lily re: Library books

Peter overstates the cost of 'recycled' library books. In the County of Essex and the London Borough of Havering paperback fiction retails for 10 or 20 pence and a pound would only usually be charged for particularly large hardback textbooks such as Art books. Personally I prefer this arrangement to the one that prevailed when I worked in a reference and local history library in my student days; back in the 70's; when 'redundant' books were cut up and thrown into black bags with instructions that the remains had to be split into different bags to ensure that the books could not be restored. Although many books were 'rescued' by staff most did get trashed. I should explain that this included 17th century imprints sch as Izaak Walton's 'Compleate Angler' & an 18th century handcoloured volume on equestrianism which bore a warning label that it was the last copy in South-eastern England. The justification at the time was that the library was to re-orient it's role toward 'business information'.

Lily, unfortunately books are included in the disposal programmes for political reasons. I acquired quite a few tomes relating to English culture and 'Englishness' , including Brewer's Anthology of England and the English',Paxman's book on the English and novels by Dickens, George Eliot and others. When I asked the Library Manager why they were being sold off the reply was to that it was against Cuncil policy to promote English culture and the English way of life and only pan-European, minority and non-English cultures were to be promoted. Bizarrely at the same time they were disposing of novels by writers such as Colette!

Peter, your 6 month estimate is wide of the mark, I've seen books that have never even made it to the shelves included in the sales!

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

Peter Mason: It was not an estimate; the 6 month figure came from Lowestoft. You should tell your local paper about the sheer vandalism of philistine councillors and brain-washed librarians. I advised Lily to read the replies to the letter in The Times on 1 April from Roy Clare CBE Head of the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council, who wrote: "The electorate should hold their local council accountable", and one reply said: "in that case WHAT DOES YOUR COUNCIL DO?" to earn the fat salaries. Google former Rear Admiral Clare and he was i/c the Maritime museum, no doubt doing good work there, but if he saw perfectly good ships being destroyed he would understand how authors feel about the destruction of books. You should also phone the Beeb and tell Paxo that his book is en route to the decharge.
So far I hve not even mentioned the influence of amazon sales on authors: thousands of books being sold on, re-sold over and over again while the average earnigns of authors in the Uk is about £5,000 a year, not even the minimum wage. The thousands of books sent to reviewers are sold on amazon or given to Charity shops where theyareboughtby dealers for 50 pence and sold on amazon for £5. It is a never ending spiral. My last four hardback novels are still being sold at less than half price on amazon, and this has gone on for 5 years.

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

Pierre Bernardi and Valentin --

i have an excellent critique of the current state of u.s. markets, and suggestions for triage. it's too long to post but i sent it as an attachment to CB who might be willing to forward it to you if you give him your email address.

[Valentin]

PJB's post sounds quite logical to me.

Rob, if you've got something worth reading, you can just put it here, I'm sure CB won't mind and all those interested will profit - while whoever doesn't care, will just pass to the next post.

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

V --

it's so long, i am afraid it would crash the times' server. and i don't want to edit it. CB says he'll send it on to you if he can find your email addresses.

[Valentin]

Alright alright... walentijn@free.fr

[Maggie G]

Valentin,

Thanks for posting your e-mail address, but it doesn't seem to work anymore.

Purely by coincidence, I tried to send you something last night and it got returned, with the explanation that the address has been closed due to lack of use.

[John Gregory Flinn]

I understand that Tibet has been an autonomous province of China for some centuries, and well before the despot, Mao Tse-Tung led his communist revolution.

I would bow to John's inside knowledge of China, but what appears to have happened following the establishment of the totalitarian regime in Beijing; is that all parts of mainland China were 'revisited' to spread the marxist revolutionary message and 're-educate' the people by all means necessary.

The Tibetans, and some other minorities, rejected such a godless system as replacement for their Buddhist government. To no avail.
It should be noted that Taiwan is wary of the same once it re-unites with the mainland.
Hong-Kong is different because the Chinese were/are prepared to abide by the contract agreed when it was handed over by the UK.

As we have seen in Russia since the fall of totalitarian rule, religion has bloomed like no-one could ever have imagined.
I think this is the point with Tibet.
They simply want a return to their religious autonomous government in Lhasa. Although this is clearly complicated by the massive influx of non-Tibetan Chinese who may not prefer the same.

The violent supression of the Tibetan religious aspirations are a problem for many Europeans because they like to take a secular stance.
And sport is probably the most secular of all human endeavour.
However a boycott of the ceremonies of the Games might be effective, because that would be a slight on the way the Chinese manage their affairs.
Britain's position should be ignored - it is so obviously partisan.

The Chinese totalitarian system seems somwhat different from those of the Soviet era. They may be struggling to develop some kind of hybrid version of centrally planned capitalism and free markets. But they want to avoid the concomitant freedom of religion and political expression that might result.

[Roger Goodacre]

Peter Kinsley - re Juan Pujol AKA Garbo. Yes, he was an extraordinary larger-than-life character, as were Eddie Chapman and other double agents who were turned and run by MI5. But they were all essentially mercenaries, selling information to the highest bidder, dodging the threat of execution or worse if they were ever found out by whomever they were double-crossing at the time.

Apparently Garbo (Pujol's MI5 codename) sold his services initially to the Germans despite never having visited Britain: he based his proposals for supplying military intelligence on what he deduced from a Blue Guide and a Thomas Cook railway timetable.

Derek Robinson (a Booker Prize nominee) has written an excellent fictional trilogy based on Garbo, which brilliantly captures, IMO, the character of the man and the unbelievable adventures he got up to (we now know they were mostly true): The Eldorado Network, Artillery of Lies and Red Rag Blues. The last is just out, the first two you should be able to find in a library, with luck.

The Public Record Office also published the official story fairly recently under the title 'Garbo: the Spy who saved D Day'.

The real heroes were the small team of counter intelligence experts at MI5 who controlled German intelligence in Britain throughout the war, and ran a series of bold and successful operations, the most important of which was the D Day deception in conjunction with Operation Overlord.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

Roger Goodacre: Thanks for info and advice, but if you read above you will note my hesitancy about going near libraries who are busy destroying their stock, Yes, Ken L said he would put Pujol on his long list of poss. statues. He did save London.
He had to invent stuff to begin with because he had been thrown out of the British Embassy in Lisbon when he applied. So he went to the Germans. His first report decribed the dockers of Liverpool "drinking their pints of wine". Yet he became their No. 1. agent in the UK.
If you click on my name in SEARCH top right corner of The Times Online you can read of my last meeting with Eddie Chapman. Eddie, a Geordie and a suave crook, conned the Germans in Jersey that he was Irish and hated the British. He went to MI5 when he parachuted in, but he did not tell them the full story about the money they had given him to set up a network which he buried for after the war. He declared some and asked if he could keep it and they said no. He and his brother, a naval officer, doped the greyhounds at White City and reaped a fortune. Eddie threw a fiver at the bank clerk, placed the suitcase on the counter and said: "You count it." "We cannot accept tips, sir," said the clerk.
Eddie took the fiver back and tipped the taxi driver with it.

[Valentin]

Hi Maggie,

My address seems to work - I often get mails there, and I received your mail on Hockeyville and Azloon's about financial markets... Was it something else you sent that didn't get through?

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

V --

did you get it?

[Maggie G]

Valentin,

Very strange. I received a message from the postmaster saying my mail was undeliverable. Glad to hear that you got it after all.

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

Maggie --

i get those 'undeliverable messages' replies for many of the emails i send to france. tho it happens in spurts.

i figure the provider's employees are out to a long lunch with a bottle of wine, and shut the system down for a hour or so. or perhaps are back from lunch and doing routine maintenance. :)

yes, those emails usually get thru despite the message (which sometimes reads, 'temporarily can't be delivered")

france is the only country where i have this problem. does that surprise any of the french posters who've complained here about telephone/internet services in france?

[dot king]

Azloon, re net problems:
The most annoying thing with the biggest internet suppliers is that once you're with them - I mean after those magic moments you spend talking to a real person who sets everything up and rings you back and says how wonderful everything's going to be, you can NEVER speak to anyone who isn't virtual.
Recently, out of the blue, my computer advised that as per my request, the changes were being made to my internet supply. I had asked no such thing, and even though they kept me informed over about a month of where the changes were up to, and finally that the changes were in effect, nothing happened. I just kept an eye on my bills to make sure they hadn't altered the charges, and then gave up.
But, at first, I tried to put things right. I had quite a surreal "conversation" with the curvaceous and virtual Chloë, who is even programmed to deal with you when you finally lose your rag!
She has set pieces: "votre question est trop longue, soyez plus bref";
"je n'ai pas compris votre demande"; "je ne pense pas" (in response to "vous êtes nulle!") and finally: "vous n'êtes pas très gentil, soyez plus poli" (in response to "connaissez-vous des Grecs?"). ;)

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

["vous n'êtes pas très gentil, soyez plus poli" (in response to "connaissez-vous des Grecs?"). ;)] Dot

ROTFL

makes you want to smack little Chloe around a little, doesn't it?

why do i get the impression that this portion of Choe's programming was done exactly for people like you?

Dot, why don't you egg her on a little more and see if you can get her to say, "S’il vous plaît être plus agréable ou je va appeler la police."

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

Peter Mason: I am interested in library acfivities in your area but not sure where (Essex? Havering?) Can you email my publisher through mywebsite and give him your email address and I will contact you.

[dot king]

"why do i get the impression that this portion of Choe's programming was done exactly for people like you?"
azloon

She's obviously programmed to pick up anything which might be offensive, but the only word in my question that could come from a potentially "doubtful" French expression, was "Grecs".
IMO Chloë deserves whatever abuse she gets - I wonder what happens the day I have a real problem.
So far, so good, but my supplier e-mail address and mailbox is a lot slower than my additional one.

Hey, whaddya mean, "people like me"? Hmm? Just because you get frustrated with Chloë, "doesn't mean you're a bad person, you know" . . .;0 (Come on, guess the film - 2 extra points if you can guess the actor who says the line).

[dot king]

Yesterday, I set my 4èmes a rédaction. They were to write a letter which started "Cher Monde" and then ask questions, give their opinions etc.
In the preamble "brainstorming", the question of the Olympics was raised (not vey high) and in one of the letters, I read "Je ne suis pas d'accord pour les Jeux Olympiques en Chine parce que c'est trop loin".

[Romain]

potentially "doubtful" French expression, was "Grecs" Dot & Azloon.
Not potentially doubful, it means vas te faire enc**** chez les grecs.
Simple as that.

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

["doesn't mean you're a bad person, you know" ] Dot's Name That Quote/Movie game

Dot --

i would never challenge you on an entertainment question in 'Trivial Pursuit.' you are a veritable encyclopedia of this stuff, and would be quite unbeatable, i imagine. (did you ever play?)

so, short answer: 'je ne sais pas.' s'il vous plait, dites-moi.

hey, i'm not unsympathetic with your annoyance. didn't i suggest that any reasonable person would probably want to 'smack [Chloe] around a little bit.' i just thought you would be particularly annoyed by such idiocy.

i enjoy screaming into the telephone when the mechanical voices aren't seeming to make any sense, i.e. are not responding appropriately to my answers. it's usually something like: "you stupid bitch (they are usually female --- it's ass*ole for a male voice), why don't you listen to me???" i call this 'phone rage,' which, imo, is much less dangerous than 'road rage.' and highly satisfying.

speaking of artificial intelligence/ignorance, i have a friend whose wife gets snippety every time she hears the seductive female voice on his car's GPS system. "now, slow down ('bigboy'), your turn is coming up on the right.' the woman sounds like she recorded this stuff in flimsy lingerie.

my car's GPS also has french language instructions so i often listen to this french babe tell me what i should be doing, having scant idea of what she is saying, but imagining wonderful things not related to traffic directions.

[dot king]

"Not potentially doubful, it means vas te faire enc**** chez les grecs"
(Romain)
Romain, Thank you but - I knew this - this is why I "politely" asked Chloë if she knew any Greeks.

As she is but a perfectly virtual person (a sort of virtual Stepford Wife), she is programmed, no doubt, to pick up any words in any abuse she is (more than) likely to get.
"Connaissez-vous des Grecs?," was my "polite" way of telling her to "get stuffed" which is a polite way of say "Vas ** ***** **** **** *** Grecs". (or "Allez-vous . . .")
It was humour, Romain, of the British, understated kind, showing that I knew exactly what I was saying, but was demonstrating due restraint as befites a British person of the gentler gender. ;0

And by saying "potentially doubtful" I wasn't meaning that I didn't know - it was a sideways glance at HOW Chloë must be programmed. Obviously, the otherwise innocuous and insult-free word "Grecs" is an abuse keyword in the things clients might write to her.
I seriously doubt Chloë gets many satisfied customers . . .

Honestly Romain, you take all the fun out of my being able to use everyday French expressions!

BTW when I first heard this expression, I puzzled over it for ages, wondering what on earth it might signify, then it was explained to me.
Be assured, I don't use it often, in fact up to now have reserved a single reference to it in my "polite" version, exclusively for Chloë.
Furthermore, in the version as it was given to me, the verb is "faire voir" not "enc***".
Mais enfin, Romain, quel manque d'élégance de votre part! ;0

[dot king]

Azloon - I had taken your comments in good part (OMG we spend AGES explaining ourselves to each other :)) and if you'd known the film I'm referring to (I'm sure you do), you'd see that my response was in the same vein.
Yes, love Trivial Pursuits, have been known to win - even in a French game, but by an "educated" guess - can't now remember the question, but the answer was "Père Lachaise" (it didn't involve Jim Morrison - the question, that is - it was about a wall - nope, wasn't about Pink Floyd either).
Anyway, the film was "No way to treat a lady" (see the connection now?) and it was a comedy about a cross-dressing serial killer played by ------- Rod Steiger. Da doom!

BTW Chloë is a computer creature, you can't yell at her except in capital letters, most frustrating.

[dot king]

" . . .chez les grecs.
Simple as that." Romain

It has occured to me that many non-French readers living outside France and/or being unfamiliar with, erm, the vernacular, might not find your explanation quite so "simple".
In English we don't have such a saying about certain sexual practices and the Greek nation in general, I think it's a French hang-up ;)
I invite everyone to write in en masse to demand an explanation from Romain of this typically French expression (I'm quite nice when you get to know me, really, well, sometimes, at least :))
my best "Greek" expression is : "Democracy, don't talk to me about Democracy. That stuff's all Greek to me."

BTW Azloon, just seen your President on the news, in Russia, meeting his Russian counterpart (now there's a thought:)) and he wasn't even wearing a tie! Presumably to show his red neck to best advantage . . .

[Romain]

Mais enfin, Romain, quel manque d'élégance de votre part! Dot

Well, I suppose I should stand corrected and copy "Romain, quel manque d'élégance" 500 times.
That French "hang-up" about so called Greek sexual pratices comes from a long way. I majored in classical Greek and I am a great admirer of the Greek culture.
I am afraid I could not explain certain facts of life without outraging your modesty; therefore I will refrain except if there is an "en masse" demand, which I would be very flattered about. Simple as that.

[dot king]

Specially for Romain and Azloon, but everybody will just LERVE these.

Romain this is to show that I only like humour in the BEST possible taste.

Azloon, you get a "bad person" film-buff reference.

Cupid Stunt, and then Cupid Stunt with Michael Winner

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2Kc4_mAkgQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkBMA-gWkfk

Happy Sunday, erm, bon dimanche

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

Dot, your movie reference was so obscure (and perfect!) that is was totally wasted on me.

my area of entertainment expertise is early R 'n R and R 'n B. Are you aware that "Angel Baby" by Rosie and the Originals is arguably the best 'slow dance' song of the latter half of the 20th century? and Barrett Strong's "Money' probably the best Motown hit ever, right up there with "Tracks of My Tears,' by Smokey Robinson and the Miracles?

That Bill Haley and the Comets sang the first R 'n R song ever, 'Rock around the Clock,' theme music for the movie Blackboard Jungle with Sidney Poitier (Haley was big in Britain).

that the Everly Brothers got their start at a local radio station in Shenandoah, Iowa? that Linda Ronstadt's brother was mayor of Tucson, Arizona and that she sang backup in Paul Simon's "Under African Skies," in which her personal story is featured in the lyrics?

That Buddy Holly's plane crashed in a farm field in northern Iowa, and that Garrison Keillor, of Prairie Home Companion fame, skipped school with his buddies in Minneapolis and drove to the field the next day (the story of which is one of his most famous story/monologues?)

That Don McClain's "American Pie" was voted the second most 'important' popular song of the century, right behind "Can't Get No Satisfaction" by the american cable channel VH-1. when asked by a reporter what the song's somewhat opaque lyrics meant, McClain said "they mean i never have to work again."

(note: there are several websites devoted to interpreting those lyrics)

I could go on, but i hear snoring in the back of the room.

[dot king]

Azloon, I caught up you with around Smokey Robinson; in the musical culture section of triv you have a head start on me.
However I do suspect you of going in for a spot of one-up-manship here, whilst I was just following a train of thought (angelic innocent expression).
I hadn't thought "No way to treat a lady" was an obscure film - it did the rounds in the "movie-theaters" (see how I try to keep you sweet, by speaking your language :)) also it was on TV several times in the UK.
It's a very funny film - Rod Steiger - cross-dressing? I recommend it - the film that is, for the rest, you do as you feel.
Have you clicked on my links above? Hmm? I don't go seeking them out specially for them to be ignored you know . . .

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

links are hilarious.

one person's obscure is another's "duh."

i am now 'one up,' aren't I?

[dot king]

OK, things are getting serious now. The Olympic flame passing through London caused near riots; in Paris, we're told enormous police, CRS, and security resources are being put in place to protect this symbol of peace and harmony between peoples.
The athletes relaying it will be wearing a badge defending human rights for all, and Mr Delanoë will hang a banner across the fronton of the Hôtel de Ville. The flame is on the starting line as I write, et ça chauffe.
This morning on the news, I heard that in Beijing, a group of students from the French Lycée were arrested, taken to the police HQ and questioned, ostensibly on possible possession of drugs.
One, who happened to have his papers on him, said he was released almost immediately, but that the others were held for several hours, were questioned, smacked around, and even kept with plastic bags over their faces, and one girl was strip-searched.
This is a new and worrying development IMO.
If we can think that these young people got off lightly compared to what the Tibetans are being subjected to, then can someone please explain to me just WHY the Olympics are still going to be held in China?
What does it take before human rights really take precedence over political and market forces? And where will it stop?
Time to make a statement the Chinese will REALLY understand and stop instrumentalising the athletes in the name of sport.

[dot king]

"That Buddy Holly's plane crashed in a farm field in northern Iowa"
(Azloon)
I still have Vol 1 of his Greatest Hits on vinyl 33rpm in Mono if you please!
Are you impressed, or what?

[Lily]

the latest:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3697392.ece

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

[I still have Vol 1 of his Greatest Hits on vinyl 33rpm in Mono if you please!] Dot re buddy holly

i did too until we moved and it disappeared. so you now go one-up. isn't this exciting? :)

seriously i am deeply impressed

perhaps you'd like to come to Lubbock, Texas, home of the Buddy museum, in september of 2009 for the fiftieth anniversary of his death. should be a great turnout (many brits i would guess) and fun. i plan to be there.

[dot king]

Well, throughout the day I've been expecting to hear more about the arrest of the 10 or so students of the French Lycée in Pekin.
Not another word - and I was beginning to think I'd dreamed it. But no, not so.
I've just relistened to part of the Sept-Dix on France Inter and if anyone's interested in hearing the item, just go to the franceinter.com site, select the sept-dix en intégrale, and when it is loaded and playing, slide the listening cursor to 1h 4m 44sec for the 2-minute report and interview.

[Lily]

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/afp/20080407/tts-france-chine-tibet-droitshomme-flamm-c1b2fc3_8.html

[dot king]

"perhaps you'd like to come to Lubbock, Texas," (azloon)

where is it near?
does it have serious senior-citizen facilities?
Zim-libs? (These are free zimmer-frames, like the vélibs in Paris) :)
incontinence-pad slot machines . . . guitar-shaped of course ;}

I was quite a little girl when BH crashed, I now can't remember how I come to have said album - I must have bought it later, but I had some 45rpm singles of him and Elvis, from saved-up pocket money.
From very young, I loved that Ol' Devil Music and at one time had an enviable (I now realise) collection of 78rpms, including the Johnny Otis Show, Fats Domino, Bill Haley, Big Bopper, Jim Reeves (pour les slow) and others. I had an old wind-up gramophone in my bedroom - and believe it or not, I used to wind it up and sing along, or bop about. Somewhere along the line, they've been left behind - shame - about the gramophone too.
Here's the story of how I came by the discs:-
There was a milk-bar (drugstore?) in town with a juke-box(nickleodeon?). It was frequented by girls with big hair, and I was, both, too young, and seriously scared of going there as my mum had warned me what would happen if she ever heard etc . . . and anyway everyone knew about girls with big hair, no better than they ought to be most of them, Hmm!
But, the owner of said milk-bar was one of my dad's best mates (that's how he said it) and whenever he changed the records on the juke-box, I got them.
(Sshh - I sometimes went in there with my dad - the girls with big hair were nice really)

And anyway, whatever happened to John D Loudermilk and "Milk Cow Blues"?

[Azloon/Rob Furlong]

Lubbock is in the Panhandle.

Mack Davis made a song famous: "happiness is lubbock in a rear-view mirror."

Johnn Otis" Willie and the Hand Jive," one of all time greats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEeeGMpM_Nk