French judges ban internet teacher ratings

A Paris court has just added a new ban to the long list of prohibitions in France. School pupils and university students are now forbidden to comment on their teachers on the internet.

The Tribunal de Grande Instance issued the order after teachers' unions sought the closure of note2be.com, a site that allows pupils to rate their teachers. Opened in January by Stéphane Cola, an entrepreneur, the site has been a big success, receiving up to 150,000 visits a day, with 50,000 teachers so far rated. It was modelled on the American ratemyteachers.com and similar sites which have sprung up around Europe.      

Teachers have been upset by ratings sites around the world but none had been banned. Last year a German court rejected an attempt to have a local site  spickmich.de closed. Provided that they were not defamatory, ratings were acceptable under the principle of freedom of expression, the German court ruled (more on that here).

No-one imagined that the French court would take that line. The whole French education world plus the government had piled in to denounce note2be.com as a gross breach of privacy and an "incitement to public disorder".

The idea of pupils marking teachers is regarded by the very leftwing teaching establishment as an alien, “Anglo-Saxon” ploy to impose capitalist methods on a noble profession. The unions were already choking on Jacques Attali's proposal to President Sarkozy that students contribute to performance reviews for teachers.Words such as “horror”, “provocation” and “public lynching” greeted the site, on which teachers have been rated between 1 and 20. The average is a relatively good 14.

The teachers were incensed that they were named by pupils who could remain anonymous. Claudie Martens, 48, a natural sciences teacher at a lycée in Palaiseau in the southern outskirts of Paris who was given a respectable mark, told Le Parisien: “I got the impression that I was being exposed to the public gaze. It was an attack on me as a person.”

Other teachers are understandably upset at being given bad marks, sometimes by pupils with a grudge. An arts teacher at Aulnay-sous-Bois, in the troubled northeast Paris suburbs, appears with zero for fairness, three for respect and an average of just over five — awarded by only one student. Teachers are rated under six criteria: the degree to which they are interesting, clear, available and fair; and how much they command respect and are motivated.

Pupils could also sound off on a forum. In one discussion thread this week, “Dilix66” writes that teachers need more assessment in France because “some are unworthy of their profession”. Another lycée pupil called “Private” agrees that “teachers work few hours, are well paid and have so many holidays they do not know what to do”.

In court last week, lawyers for the unions and individual teachers said that the site broke the privacy law by publishing teachers’ names and ratings and that it breached their right to be assessed only by their superiors. “This is not a rating, it is an opinion poll often based on a single vote,” said Frédéric Weyl, lawyer for the unions. “It makes teachers’ jobs more difficult.”

Xavier Darcos, the Education Minister, condemned the site, saying “the evaluation of teachers is the exclusive domain of the Ministry of Education and the civil servants who are appointed to carry it out”.

The judges agreed yesterday, ordering the site to desist from identifying teachers, although schools can still be named and ranked. "Pupils are given the possibility of expressing themselves in their schools, in particular through their representatives and those of their parents," the judges said in their ruling. "The exercise of freedom of information is limited by the fact that it must not harm the activity of teaching."

The unions were satisfied, hailing the judges for "restoring the dignity of the profession".

Stéphane Cola is to appeal against a decision which he called  "contrary to the evolution of the internet". It would probably lead to similar sites being opened outside French territory, he said.  "We hope that the decision of the appeal court will conform more to what is going on everywhere else outside of France, particularly in Germany," said Cola.

I would say there is very little chance that any court will reverse a ban which runs firmly in the French tradition of giving legal priority to privacy over freedom of information. 

The site is continuing to rate teachers until tomorrow (March 5). The forum is also to be suspended.

 

Comments

[john o'doe]

The site will clearly just hop over the nearest frontier where it can continue to operate with being gagged.

[Anna]

Another clash between the eternal French quest for privacy and the evolution of the internet. A shame because the comments about teachers are just as often positive. I would rather allow this sort of site but make it an even playing field. I wonder how the pupils making derogatory remarks would feel about having their report cards published on ratemypupils.com (if there was such a thing).

[Robert Marchenoir]

"Teachers are rated under six criteria: the degree to which they are interesting, clear, available and fair; and how much they command respect and are motivated."

You will note the glaring omission of a teacher's main quality: how much he knows about his subject.

According to this site, it seems that you could be chatting away in front of your pupils about Carla Bruni's sexual history (certainly a very "interesting" subject for many), do it in a very "clear" way (not difficult), be "fair" about grades (give everybody a good one), command "respect" (pretend it's society's fault if all pupils don't become TV stars right away), and still be a good teacher.

[The 3rd Column]

Ah, Charles this is more like it -- a blog topic that one and all can truly appreciate.

Thank you

[Terry]

I looked up Dominique's rating. For anyone that has seen the movie Animal House:

Zero point Zero.

[Little Big Horn]

"You will note the glaring omission of a teacher's main quality: how much he knows about his subject."

If a child could answer to this question, he/she would have no reason to go to school anymore, except to teach.

Before their matter, teachers main quality is pedagogy, and humanity. btw children not only judge their teachers (or any other adult they meet) but their parents too. All the time, and it's as old as Creation... Otherwise they'd be animals. A good teacher do not judge a child, simply because there is nothing to judge in a child.

You'd be surprised to learn that many children are fair, speak their truth honestly, and can like their teachers even with their weaknesses... Some of them even want to grow up!!! I think that you should take care of your contempt for youth, or post-68 childish frustrations, by a good curation in an elementary school Mr Marchenoir.

A moins que le temps ne fasse plus rien à l'affaire ...

[thinknoworpaylater]

There is obviously a place for student criticism of teaching staff but it may not be the net. Ratings of teachers place in U.K. universities but its an internal matter. Tensions in the schooling system between pupils and teachers are already high - stabbings arguments whatever. The web site can only aggravate that situation. Anyway - why not junior employees or managers anonymously criticising senior figures in private companies (and making clear their defects) if we are to have public denunciations of teachers?

[alan morgan]

People who object to free speach end up burning books.Teachers work in the public domain and everyone associated with them has an opinion as to their ability and also of their school. This is normally expressed by word of mouth.If they fear comment whether good or bad they are not fit to teach.

[azloon]

LBH

i almost can't believe i am typing these words.

you have spoken truth in your riposte to Robert Marchenoir. and reasonably so, i might add. a new era in our shaky relationship? let's hope so.

btw, you didn't acknowledge my appreciation of your poetry yesterday (i did put it though the google translation sausage factory and it emerged a bit squiggly -- sounds better in french).

-----------

Third Column -- YOUR BACK !!!

ready to cop to your co-option of my quote on the eurotrib website? pretty cheesy of you, imo.

you knew what that quote referred to (a french study) and was not about french bashing initiated by CB. care to comment, now that you have again deigned to grant us your presence here?

what are you anyway, besides human? american, as some have guessed here (Valentin), or european as i suspect?

what's your schtick?

[The 3rd Column]

Azloon,

Chill out!

[Romain]

Come on guys, this is just a survival from post-war French public service, when you could talk with "no-name" civil servants, only.
Hopefully, that controversy will help things change.

[Robert Marchenoir]

My dear Mister Horn, my contempt goes not to youth
....
but to people who, as soon as their core socialist beliefs are challenged, stubbornly refuse to engage into any form of civilized argument.

People who, as soon as the Pillars of Leftist Thought are shaken, shed their humanist, tolerant and people-loving mask to express their radical intolerance and violent inclination through personal attacks and assorted insults.

People who have contributed to destroy the French education system by stating it's all right for pupils to judge teachers, but not the other way round.

People who think that knowledge is unimportant for a teacher, and should not be imparted to pupils.

People who have replaced knowledge with Mickey Mouse education theories, whose failure is proven and obvious to all.

People who think a child cannot make the difference between a teacher who has a deep knowledge of his subject and the passion to share it, and one who just goes through the motions while spouting politically correct hogwash such as "a good teacher does not judge a child, simply because there is nothing to judge in a child".

As we all know, there are no bright kids and dim ones; no lazy kids and hardworking ones; no dishonest kids and honest ones; no unruly kids and well-behaved ones.

And because several generations of teachers, education officials, unionists, so-called intellectuals and journalists have driven home the message that "there is nothing to judge in a child", those whose responsibility it is to pass judgement on children -- that is, adults, and teachers among them -- have consistently failed to do so for several decades.

They have thus produced several generations of ignorant, hopeless, desperate, arrogant, violent, unemployable and feral people, who keep smashing their heads on the walls of reality, because nothing is more judgemental than reality.

And that's not the case in France only. The United Kingdom and America have been infected with the same ideological virus. Indeed, a good part of the West's moral fiber has been dissolved by stupid socialist utopianism.

Congratulations, Mister Horn. Mission accomplished.

[John Gregory Flinn]

"No-one imagined that the French court would take that line."

Why not?
This is what I love about France.
It has a different perspective to that of the tired old politically correct 'received wisdoms' so malevolently influential in other countries
It has a maverick quality, and often does the opposite to that which is 'expected' of it - especially when anglo-saxons might 'expect'.

From a voting survey, some 57% of students and pupils think that the education establishment listens well to their concerns - which can't be bad!

Would a rating of the medical profession be allowed?

[rocket]

John

"It has a different perspective to that of the tired old politically correct 'received wisdoms' so malevolently influential in other countries
It has a maverick quality, and often does the opposite to that which is 'expected' of it - especially when anglo-saxons might 'expect'."

Especially when it comes to suppressing freedom of expression

[azloon]

["Azloon,

Chill out!"] ThirdColumn

i am thoroughly chilled.

once again, what are you?

[John Gregory Flinn]

Yes ROCKET, lamentably, 'freedom of expression' is a notion that western nations including France do get a bit 'iffy' about from time to time.
I have posted before at different times how Voltaire, John Stuart Mill and Plato would view the present 'unwritten rules' that seem to apply about what can be debated and what cannot. I quoted John Pilger's russian joke as a example of how the soviets might have wondered how such 'rules' were exercised.

However I'm not sure this "banning" qualifies as denial of 'freedom of expression'. I have taught in UK schools, so am aware how damaging derogatory remarks, rumours and name-calling can be for teachers - especially young teachers in today's school climate. For example, just a (malicious) hint that one had an unusual interest in a pupil could ruin a career.

[Pierre Bernardi]

I can't see anything in this article which wouldn't meet with the full approbation of the Daily Mail. Always good to widen one's horizons.

[Ian Deans]

Why is it that those who receive public funds cannot be exposed to public scrutiny?

[razatork]

Mwahahahaha.

that's all i have to say.

[Marguerite.]

Qu'est-ce qu'on a pu etre emmerde par les jugements des profs sur nous, pauvres eleves !
Ce n'est donc pas mal que les eleves puissent les juger a leur tour mais , des deux cotes, ces jugements sont tellement subjectifs !Et souvent tellemnt mechants ! Quel interet ?

[HDF]

That would be interesting to see how this situation evolves. It is so easy to imagine a web site created outside of the French territory that I can't figure out it won't happen. The French society, attached to values and atavismes, always reluctantly integrates the necessary evolutions justified by technology, social, geopolitical changes. This story is just another chapter in a tradition well illustrated in history books. The problem in this specific field of activity is that, unless you decide to adopt the Chinese firewall strategy, a national legislation is of little help. By ignoring national boundaries, Internet is not already changing the way we communicate, it is also projecting a different light on the national peculiarities that constitute what we like to refer as our identity.

[Jollyswagman]

As a web developer I think I have some solutions:

The French government needs to do what the Chinese, Burmese and Vietnamese governments have done and make internet connections illegal unless connected through government proxies where undesirable content can be blocked. Of course satellite dishes would have to be banned or licensed.
Perhaps printing presses should be licensed as well just in case students, denied their outlet through the internet, resort to older technologies.
While they're at it, voice recognition technology makes it possible to identify anyone talking about their teachers on the phone system too.

Alternatively it would be simpler for teachers to set up some fake accounts on the site and give themselves five star ratings... unless there's a law against it of course!

[Valentin]

I agree with ThinkNow.

Anyway the issue seems to be not banning teacher rating or closing the website, but NAMING the teachers:

"The judges agreed yesterday, ordering the site to desist from identifying teachers" (CB)

The free-speech angels should put themselves in the skin of a teacher who discovers his name on the internet, along with a list of anonymous comments.
That's not an issue of free speech, but of right to private image. I don't think anyone here would like to go out one day and see banners with his picture and some "nice" comments from anonymous former workmates.

[Sam Young]

This Court ruling was easy to predict. Entirely typical of the lefties that rule and ruin the teaching establishment. Apparently, it was Stalin who said "Scratch a liberal and you will get a fascist".
Doesn't matter though because the site can easily be set up in a different territory. Note however that even if the site is set up in a different territory, it can still be blocked from viewing in France. That's what happens in China. Ah yes, wouldn't it be amusing if the lefty Nazis took action to try to effect such a blocking. Whilst at the same time criticizing freedom of speech in China.
It's clear what "freedom of speech" means to these impostors => it means: "listen up pleb, I, self-appointed guardian of the truth, know what is good for you, so don't think, be numb, be dumb and pay lots of taxes".

Because i'm real smart, i'm reading "Has Man a Future?" by Bertrand Russell at the moment. Written in 1961. A most interesting book, with Russell asserting that extinction is nigh and certain. Unless...unless we all start thinking like Russell, disarm and set up a world government. Typical of lefty brainrot. Reads like a grotesque rant now, 50 years later.

The good news is: the Church died, fascism died, communism died, the global warming nonsense will die too. All these crazy strictures that tried to smother the intelligence, determination, courage and wonderful madness of the individual eventually die.

Wow, what a wonderful post. Please rate me.

[Valentin]

Public scrutiny for publicly funded, yes, but in a fair, organized way, not anonymously - and certainly not by children. How can one have any authority left in front of his class, how is one protected from lies?
Freedom is precious - as long as it's harmless to the others, and free speech must end if it becomes slander.
In any case, that's an adult society matter, children have no part in a privacy vs free speech debate, so this shouldn't have even been discussed, in the first place.

[Romain]

This is not the end of it : a similar site is building up under the name of "note2bib.com".
2bib stands for toubib, which is slang for doctor. In other words : evaluate your general practitioner. Another healthy debate, is'nt it ?

[Little Big Horn]

“LBH... you have spoken truth in your riposte...”

As always, Mr Azloon, as always.

Maybe it is because the answer was not dedicated to you that your eyes opened to this reality.

It is sad it has taken so long for you to get the “google translation sausage factory”. Pleased to know that from now on a machine can help to enlighten my barbaric speeches in your language.

Mr Marchenoir, I’ll answer as soon as I can.

[gisèle]

"In any case, that's an adult society matter, children have no part in a privacy vs free speech debate, so this shouldn't have even been discussed, in the first place."
valentin

ah, bon?
il n'a pas d'enfants, évidemment ...

[Ros]

ROMAIN is right - this new site is going to be available in two weeks time and the GPs are not too pleased - probably they are right -unless of course the "Grand Patrons" (equivalent to Harley Street consultants) are going to be included which wouldn't be a bad idea!see "http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/actualites/societe/20080304.OBS3464/les_medecins_craignent_note2bib.html?idfx=RSS_notr"

[Ros]

Is there one of these teacher-rating sites in uk? If so could Charles give us the link --- it would be more interesting for those of us in Europe than the one in US he quoted.

[Ros, it's http://www.ratemyteachers.co.uk/
CB]

[azloon]

[It is sad it has taken so long for you to get the “google translation sausage factory”. Pleased to know that from now on a machine can help to enlighten my barbaric speeches in your language.] LBH

the big problem is that 'English to English' is not one of the google translation options. :)

in the case of the post in question, i actually could read, understand and appreciate at least a portion of your English effort.

as for the rest, it would have been better en francaise since then i could have used google to translate back into english.

as an alternative, i suppose i could translate your English into something like Polish, then into Portuguese, and finally back into English. maybe there would be an 'alchemy' effect, eliminating some of the difficulties of the original English.

[Romain]

Given the overwhelming success of those "note" websites,
I decided to copyright "notemy-ex-spouse.com".
Sought support from banks who were rather supportive; the final cut came from our beloved president : Nicolas.

[john o'doe]

Charles,
Maybe you could start rating comments and commentators on your blog!?!

[Ros]

Thanks for the uk link, Charles, I only read the last two "appreciations" which seemed quite harmless & even boring - a few lessons in grammar & punctuation wouldn't go astray! But this is a negative criticism - for to do it properly one has to choose a school, log in etc which I'll try another day. If the french site was like this I don't see what harm it could have done but of course we'll never know as it's already gone!

[Greg Lorriman]

Plainly the site should be shut down as the questions only address the site's own idea of how a teacher should be rated, which is unfair. A typical statistical mistake.

The real question it should, and doesn't ask, is "Are they a good teacher?".

[Little Big Horn]

"as an alternative, i suppose i could translate your English into something like Polish, then into Portuguese, and finally back into English"

Yes I think it's a good idea. And certainly fitted to your grasping problems. No matter the effort and time Azloon, the main thing is to overcome your difficulties, never give up, and show to yourself that you can do it.

What is important is not the means (brain or google translation sausage factory), but the goal, never lose sight of the goal. And you'll see at the end of it, that there is no better achievement in an internaut's life than getting my comments ;-)

[Johhn Gregory Flinn]

"...a negative criticism - for to do it properly one has to choose a school, log in etc which I'll try another day"

And the rest!
Well ROS, I'm making a negative criticism and perhaps someone can explain.
Why does the website have to be so complicated, and dumb?
Are the designers showing how clever they are, or what?

I've tried accessing the UK site - so many clicks...., and it does'nt tell you what I'm doing wrong, or be helpful.
Some of here in rural Ch'ti country are still on dial-up, consequently it takes an age to open anything.
Keep it simple!

There I've got that off my chest.

[Tom]

Teachers require children to learn stuff that the children don't want to learn, holding them captive and punishing them when they do not comply.

Why hurt people in the name of education? Learning when it is not led by the heart will never fully engage the mind.

Many teachers know this, but not explicitly. Those who do not leave the profession will thus attempt to shut down any criticism of themselves, of whatever quality.

[Johhn Gregory Flinn]

Sorry, but my last post has two words missing!
Well Ros I'm ALSO making...
Some of US here...
(serves me right for criticising these machines...)

[Miquelon.org]

""roquet:"t has a maverick quality, and often does the opposite to that which is 'expected' of it - especially when anglo-saxons might 'expect'."

Especially when it comes to suppressing freedom of expression

Posted by: rocket | 4 Mar 2008 18:47:03 ""

Another "positive" post about France I see, roquet.

As a gesture of goodwill.
Can you please tell us ONE thing you like about living in France. And one thing you like about the French.

I know you've been asked the question for years and as the true francophile you are have always refussed to answer but still.

We'll be waiting...

[azloon]

LBH --

:) at your last post.

i think i've finally 'got' it.

it's when you unleash your fiery, exquisitely nuanced french mind that comprehension becomes a problem for me. in ordinary conversational language and structure, you are perfectly understandable, even quite fluent.

perhaps, when you are attempting to scale the peaks (and they certainly ARE peaks) of french abstract expression, you are entering territory for which there IS no english equivalent.

which would explain much about the type of misunderstanding that occurs here so often between some of us and our french friends, internauts all.

i remain,

interanaut apprentice

azloon

[Ros]

JOHN GREGORY FLINN: "Why does the website have to be so complicated, and dumb?" Indeed, we are both saying the same thing but I don't think it's necessarily DUMB - it's simply, as you say, that there are no explanations - in fact, it's just a case of trial & error which needs a lot of time & patience of which I have neither at the moment!

[gisèle]

"I know you've been asked the question for years and as the true francophile you are have always refussed to answer but still.

We'll be waiting..."
(Miquelon.org)

1) I have been to look at the miquelon.org site - it isn't worth the bother
2) I hope Rocket isn't going to rise to this repeated harrassment - why should he have to justify himself to miquelon.org - a ... one-track-mind website?
3) I got here directly from a link from that site
4) it's ..... paranoiac

[gisèle]

i see you have taken an expression from my comment - cependant ce n'était ni obscène ni une attaque personnel

est-ce mieux, être paranoiac que stupide?
j'ai vu pire ici

[Valentin]

Charles is not very clear in his post on what exactly the ban is about. Here's the story from AFP :

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/afp/20080303/tfr-proces-education-enseignant-internet-4000a2c.html

'Le site "note2be.com", qui propose aux élèves de noter les enseignants en citant leur nom, devra s'abstenir de toutes "données nominatives". '

There is no ban on the website, on teacher rating, or on comments. What has been forbidden, is identifying the teachers by their name.
The measure is thus strictly protecting any individual's right to privacy.

[Miquelon.org]

""1) I have been to look at the miquelon.org site - it isn't worth the bother
2) I hope Rocket isn't going to rise to this repeated harrassment - why should he have to justify himself to miquelon.org - a ... one-track-mind website?
3) I got here directly from a link from that site
4) it's ..... paranoiac""

Well, gisèle I guess you don't mind that en entire generation of americans is growing up thinking the French are cowards, dirty, untrustworthy monkey-like inferior beings.
But we do.

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it ?

[Miquelon.org]

You're right, Valentin.
There's a differnece between freedom of speech and slander.

Rien n'empeche nos chères tetes blondes de "se payer" un prof.

[Monsieur le prof d'anglais]

I really don't know what the fuss is about. I teach in a private University just outside Paris and at the end of each semester students are given an evaluation sheet to fill out, rating my teaching.

I have to write evaluations of my students for their end of semester grades, so why not let the students evaluate me? I have no problem with it. Apart from the very very few "pleurnicheurs(e)" - cry babies who will of course give a low grade.

In fact from the student evaluations, I learned how to improve my classes and make them more interesting, relevant and suitable to the students requirements from their comments.

To go off the thread a bit:

Unfortunately the French educational system is so rigid and negative.

For example: I did oral exams for BTS (nearest UK qualification is City and Guilds, correct me if I'm wrong) and one of the testees was of Franco/US parentage with perfect English. I gave her 20/20, her teacher told me: "You can't give any grade over 16/20".
"Why not?" I asked.
"You must challenge them to do better", was the response.
"But she's bilingual!" I replied.
All I got was a Gallic shrug of the shoulders.

In all the 3rd level schools I've worked in 16/20 was the maximum grade I was told to give but being a punk/rebel at heart I ignored this and so I didn't get some contracts renewed, "tant-pis pur moi, hein?"

I don't want to change, but the French educational system needs to.

Keep up the good work Charles, I enjoy your articles.

[Miquelon.org]

Gisèle, are you aware that such sites exist http://www/f---france.com ??

Thousands of people visit that site every day, many more than on this blog.

On f...france.com, americans rejoice every time a French citizen dies. If you were to post about how you'd lost a familiy member, they would cheer.
They rejoice whn we weep.

Don't those things bother you.
Should they be left unanswered ?

[Pierre Bernardi]

Robert, you can hardly blame the left for the departure of women from the home and the resulting (though not measurable) decline in education standards. The reaction to this decline found its expression in May 1968 but the left did little more than post-rationalise an evolution in parents' and consequently teachers' roles which coincided with the rise of 'consumerism'.

If you confined your attacks to facts (eg. trend in % of mothers staying at home between 1945 and 1970) rather than ideology (do you find Terry's company enjoyable?) you might elicit a more favourable response from your fellow readers.

That's done. Now show me a leftie I can stick my teeth into.

[azloon]

Miquelon

you have entered territoire known as OTT.

this blog really isn't interested in your crusade, i think i can safely say.

only rarely does someone post here who truly despises France. most have great affection, albeit with not infrequent critical takes on la mode francaise.

but the idea of anyone here rejoicing over any person's death is absolutely beyond the pale.

cheers

[Valentin]

Monsieur le prof

"I have to write evaluations of my students for their end of semester grades, so why not let the students evaluate me"

Because your positions are not identical, you're supposed to teach them and grade their learning, and they're supposed to learn.
You received training and are (I hope) competent to teach and evaluate.
They're students, they don't have the skills, the knowledge and the experience necessary to "grade" a fullblown university teacher.

You can of course ask their opinion as to the method you use, the topics, if it's clearly exposed. But that has nothing to do with the kind of evaluation you do.

Being a teacher, you should actually know all this and not come out with such silly '68 slogans.

(I dont even speak about the fact that your students, at least, are grownups and not children, and you're "evaluated" in the school, not on a public website by anonymous people)

[Evan in Missouri]

There shouldn't even be a question as to whether or not we should "allow" this. Banning commentary is outside of government's role in a Democracy.

This is fascism. This is what happens when legistlatures are allowed to make laws regulating our daily lives or basic freedoms. This is the kind of government that spawns when people depart from the principles of democracy. You give an inch, miles are eventually taken.

[Valentin]

Azloon,

Miquelon doesnt need any help. But since I like his/her style just as you do, I will say that his cant be called a crusade, in that he aimed precisely at certain professional French bashers here, and at a certain tone in Charles' posts these last months.

Also, Azloon and Charles, it seems to me that Miquelon, rather than comparing our blog with the anti-French one, was justifying to someone else's very hostile post the reason behind the site Miquelon.org

I don't think he was comparing, but only explaining why his/her site is useful. And (s)he's right. Nothing to do with this site, I don"t know where you two saw that.

[gisèle]

"Well, gisèle I guess you don't mind that en entire generation of americans is growing up thinking the French are cowards, dirty, untrustworthy monkey-like inferior beings.
But we do." miquelon.org

c'est vous qui voyez, mais à mon avis toute personne de n'importe laquelle nationalité perd trop de temps et d'energie à haïr l'autre

votre propre intolérance n'est point supérieure à ce que vous appelez French-bashing - si vous ne l'aimez pas, alors fréquentez un autre blog, le vôtre j'ai trouvé ennuyeux donc je n'irai plus, j'ai vu, je n'aime pas, fin d'histoire, mais faites comme cela vous amuse . ..

à mon avis, vous n'avez même pas raison, vous avez identifié une personne que vous harcelez, qui se fiche de vous et il a raison de ce faire
c'est vous qui donnez une mauvaise impression de la France et des français, ici c'est le plus souvent de l'humour (et oui essayez pour voir, ça fait du bien), chez vous c'est carrément la croisade et celle-ci basée sur vos inventions: "the French are cowards, dirty, untrustworthy monkey-like inferior beings."
c'est vous qui écrivez ceci, pas quelqu'un d'autre
encore - si vous avez besoin de protester, ça dit plus sur vous que sur tout le monde
comme on dit: get a life

[gisèle]

"comparing our blog with the anti-French one"

OUR blog?
NOTRE blog?

US & THEM, eh, pas vraiment plus intelligent comme approche . . .

[Antoine de Caunes]

Don't let yourself fooled by Charles Bermner's article, Evan.

No Government or legislature were involved, and no commentary was actually banned. A judge ruled that people have the right to not be identified by their names.

[azloon]

Valentin -

comme Voltaire, i defend Miquelon's right to state his case in a civilized, if occasionally belligerent style. i confess to using such a style myself from time to time.

but i really don't see CB's postings over the past few months as being any different than those in previous months, or years, for that matter. in fact, his approach has seemed unusually consistent to me.

i think what we have here is the old French hyper-sensitivity raising it's familiar head once again.

seriously, guys. you really do have to learn to 'chill out' a bit.

a little French bashing, a little U.S. bashing?

it's no 'biggie.'

no one dies. or is hospitalized.

you win some, you lose some.

give as good as you take.

think of it as a form of jousting.

and the winner gets Guinevere (or Carlita).

:)

[Romain]

I took a glance at Miquelon's website : it's thick as a brick !

[Romain]

About Miquelon, I would quote Robin Williams in "Good Morning Vietnam !".
He says :"He is the man in direst need of a bl.w job since prehistory"
I am not sure it will pass approval ... lol

[Emma de Caunes]

"A judge ruled that people have the right to not be identified by their names." Antoine de Caunes

But Papa, do we have the right to use someone else's name to our own ends? Vraiment, tu n'es plus très drôle.

[Valentin]

AZLOON:
"but i really don't see CB's postings over the past few months as being any different than those in previous months"

Thats because you're not French. Some Anglos even call French bashing humour. But I agree with you in principle :)

GISELE,
Why thank you, your such a sweetheart, you. As usual. I love you too, darling :)
May I present you to my other ladyfriends: D, Doremi, Dot King, WhatsUpDoc and Miss Marple ? Mon 'tit harem à moi, as I like to call it (in jest, of course - je me permettrais jamais!)
Küss :)

[Romain]

Read the actual law, and you'll see the cases covered :
« 1° Meurtre ou assassinat ;
« 2° Torture ou actes de barbarie ;
« 3° Viol ;
« 4° (nouveau) Enlèvement ou séquestration,
Sexual criminals are not the only heavy psychotic cases.
On a bigger picture , the question is :"what to do with dangerous psychotic persons who are declared criminally irresponsible,and the ones who have served their sentence"
There is a recent case of a young schizophenic man who atrociously massacred two nurses at Pau psychiatric hospital.
He was judged criminally irresponsible because of his mental ilness.
Public is more sensitive to pedophile cases, and that's what retains attention.

[qwerty]

Monsieur le Prof d'anglais: thank you. I finally know, after all these years, why I got 16/20 in English at my baccalauréat. I thought it had something to do with the way I was dressed.

Azloon: I still haven't figured out his connection with France, he doesn't even seem to live here, but in some US flyover State, probably Arizona. What's this long-distance love-hate relationship really about?

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

French schoolteachers. The one who refused to allow a pupil full marks 16/20 etc reminded me of my stepson, aged 9, saying he wanted to choose Japanese as a second language in the village school (an impressible Karate kid) but his mother and I insisted he take Spanish. "No. He must take English as a second language," said the Head teacher. "But he i s English." "No matter. He will be top of the class."
The reasoning behind this was that his teacher would have full marks for teaching him English, a feather in h e r cap from the Inspectors of schools.
Enrolled that winter in the Alliance Francaise in Ibiza, we were impressed by the high standard of teaching (with Spanish as a second language!) the atmosphere of freedom matching that of the White Island, and the fact that Inspectors came down annually from Toulouse to thoroughly inspect the school's progress. Now aged 10, the lad asked me if he could wear his boy scout uniform to school. I said the teachers may object. He said: "I don't think so. One kid came to school yesterday dressed as Batman."

[Anna]

My French teacher-mother in Edinburgh was pretty chuffed to have been graded 4.8 out of 5 with the comment 'Great French teacher, probably the best in the department' on ratemyteachers.co.uk. Nobody will pay attention if one grudge-bearing pupil has a rant, the ratings only become impactful when a significant number of pupils have voted, in which case, what's the worst that can happen? Poor teachers are exposed as such to their peers, superiors, existing & prospective parents, who probably already knew or suspected as much, while good teachers are given recognition.

[gisèle]

May I present you to my other ladyfriends: D, Doremi, Dot King, WhatsUpDoc and Miss Marple ? Mon 'tit harem à moi

dE quoi voulez-vous parlez? et vous faites référence à quoi? pourquoi vous me remerciez? je n'ai rien compris

[Anonymous]

It's a difficult problem. Some teachers in my school have been upset my comments. The French may not be able to put a stop to it, but at least they have a common sense attitude - unlike the English, who encourage pupils to comment on their teachers. The French are better at understanding child psychology - give children a chance to blame their teachers and they will never accept any responsibility for anything. Failed the exam? Teacher's fault, of course. Laziness on the child's part? Perish the thought!

[rocket]

Hi Gisele

"2) I hope Rocket isn't going to rise to this repeated harrassment - why should he have to justify himself to miquelon.org - a ... one-track-mind website?"

No problem. "Je me le coule douce en espana" at the moment. Thanks for your support

Let them (Miquelon) talk all they want. I don't really care.

[Monsieur le prof d'anglais]

Valentin

"Being a teacher, you should actually know all this and not come out with such silly '68 slogans"

Sorry man, I was one year old in '68, but I'm still a socialist at heart.

"They're students, they don't have the skills, the knowledge and the experience necessary to "grade" a fullblown university teacher."

Maybe so, but they do have the right to vote and determine the future of France and I respect their opinions and judgements.

They are young adults, let them judge and evaluate. I love my students, as they are our future.

Once again, I have no problem being evaluated, be it in-house or online.

Chill out man!

QWERTY-
Sorry to let you in on the dark secret.
I detest it- good grades and 'credit where credit is due' is my motto.

[Valentin]

"Maybe so, but they do have the right to vote"

I too can respect their opinions (when they're not leftwing anarchist caricatures, that is), but that does not make one competent to judge your skills.
And we can still discuss about university students, who indeed are grownups. Sometimes students are associated to teaching, relationships are more complicated.
But we can definitely not put this problem the same way about primary school, where there's no longer a question of equality of some kind.
The same stands about family. The relationship between parents and their offspring is fundamentally different when the former become grownups.
I know French teachers in primary and secondary school aghast and fed up with the lack of respect in class and the total lack of support from their superiors.
All this is because people like you treat kids as "young adults", put themselves on the same level, allow them "opinion" and "initiative", encourage them to "express" or "develop" their personality and all that '68 kind of libertarian crap.
The final result is that they turn up children with long toes, as someone once said, narcissistic and silly.

[Maggie G]

"All this is because people like you treat kids as "young adults", put themselves on the same level, allow them "opinion" and "initiative", encourage them to "express" or "develop" their personality and all that '68 kind of libertarian crap."

oh la la, Valentin, you sound very authoritarian!!

I would say that treating kids as young adults, allowing them opinion etc basically means "treating them with respect". I don't think treating kids with respect is the cause of mayhem in the classroom.

Lack of respect towards teachers might come from kids lives being too easy these days -- too many toys and gadgets, too much expensive food in the fridge, watching too much TV and you-tube (and being confronted with massive advertising), never having to help out at home, never having to walk anywhere, never having to go without anything (except maybe being regularly home together as a family).

I don't know if these are the correct reasons -- there must be all kinds of reasons for the decline of respect towards teachers, but I hardly think that "treating kids as young adults" is one of them.

Respect engenders respect. You seem to think that the only way to get kids to behave in school is to stand over them with a whip. I think it has a lot more to do with parenting and home life than with a lessening of authoritariansm in the schools since May 68.

My dad was born in 1911 (he didn't get married until he was 40, in case you think I'm extrememy old) and they never had that kind of authoritarian rule in the schools back then, or in the home, and the kids grew up fine. They did wash the dishes though (including the boys) and chop firewood, and carry water from the pump, and share bedrooms (and beds) with younger brothers or sisters.

Treating kids as young adults is a positive thing, not a negative thing.

[qwerty]

Is there a "rate-my-dentist" site for Paris and/or New York? I want something double-checked. I'm paranoid about dentists.

[Valentin]

MAGGIE G:
"oh la la, Valentin, you sound very authoritarian"

Since Mr. Le Prof tells me to chill out man, I thought I'd rather do the opposite - like any self-respecting adulescent! :))
And besides, I don't have kids, je peux me lâcher moi, both engines full ahead, as they say in the navy! ;)

I agree that you teach respect also by treating with respect. That should not give a child the impression he/she actually is the equal of an adult, and even less so of a teacher or a parent.
My boss treats us with a bit too much respect (considering the time some of us spend blogging, for instance!), yet we never forget who he is - because we're grownups.

I also recommend you RM's post above:
Robert Marchenoir | 4 Mar 2008 17:52:46

[Valentin]

I second QWERTY. My dentist is a murderer. If it doesn't exist, a rate-my-dentist site should be created!

[Lily]

MAGGIE, I love your post.

[tout le monde]

"My dentist is a murderer"
(Valentin)

On peut rêver . . .

[Lily]

The teacher assessment business is IMO mainly about “freedom of speech” and modern tools of communication. Before, teachers had a reputation, too; now, their appreciation gets more apparent.

Two or three years ago, I tried to find the address of a former friend in the US. I googled her, and the first thing I found out was that she was a “weird”, “yeah, quite weird” teacher. That indication (i.e. the school she worked at) helped to eventually check her out in the phone book.

I think there is nothing wrong with teacher rating, and I also think that the fuzz about it will subside, as many will become lazy of rating their teachers, and teachers will become lazy of checking out their colleagues’ or their own rating.

Teachers can learn from the criticism they receive (as stated by Monsieur le Prof d’Anglais) or simply enjoy praise.

“…should not give a child the impression he/she actually is the equal of an adult, and even less so of a teacher or a parent.” (Valentin)

Is there any practical consequence to negative ratings students will give their teachers? I don’t think so. Thus students don’t have power over their teachers. Teachers keep the upper hand, in that they may decide whether a student may receive his diploma or move on to the next grade with his peers.

The impression of being equal, i.e. being allowed to speak is an impression of equal human value, not one of equal competence or knowledge (which is why students aren’t asked about their teacher’s knowledge, as criticized by R. Marchenoir).

Pupils/student are ALLOWED to rate their teachers; they are NOT FORCED to pass judgement onto their teachers, and many will prefer not to do this. If they were required to do this, i.e. to rate their teachers and decide on their teacher’s future career by doing so, this would be different.

Pupils at primary school or older students neither have the competence nor the maturity to pass judgement, as teachers are expected to have vis-à-vis their students. They are, however, able to express whether classes are interesting, whether their teacher is fair, etc.

To allow pupils/students to rate their teachers doesn’t or shouldn’t undermine teacher authority in any way.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

"The best denists in the world are Australian" I was told in a pub in London. Enquiring why, the reply was "Well, they get in so many fights, get so many teeth knocked out...."
So, hurling back a tinny of Fosters laaaager, I investigated in Earls Court, where the Oz community gather, and I ear-wigged two Oz dentists in conversation: "I had a right old dilldoddy (silly old woman) as a patient today. She pulled this way and I pulled that, and she pulled back and wouldn't stay still. I tell you, mate, when I finished with her her face looked like a plate of spaghetti bolognese."

[azloon]

Lily

i agree

"To allow pupils/students to rate their teachers doesn’t or shouldn’t undermine teacher authority in any way. "

Thats purely theoretical. Teachers, principals ect are always interested in what the geenral pupil opinion is about this or that method or teacher, but that has nothing to do with rating.
Rating is a step up to another class of relationships, way beyond asking for an opinion. Its a problem of principle: a child cannot evaluate an adult, even more so his teacher, who's been given near parental authority over him.
There are other instances who can do this job, taking into consideration all factors, children opinion included.
A teacher should never have to submit to a child's "evaluation", in any way, its degrading and unnatural and making kids believe that they're "persons", they have "rights" and that since they know stuff like internet, they would be smarter than their parents, or competent to assume life, displaying unnatural self-confidence, unadapted to their actual state of development.
Problem is more often than not the respective teachers and parents supporting all this don't even realize what the situation is and what are the effects, because they dont see the difference, having been themselves raised in a '70s "liberated" spirit, with all the dire consequences and thus lacking perspective.
The case for older people like Azloon, apparently, which makes it even more saddening. I'll return to my b/w movie now. Fred Astaire, now that's an actor. Leonardo who?

"is an impression of equal human value"

Exactly, there is no equal human value. Growing up is a process in which at a certain point you change of weight category, in a way that has nothing to do with your former self.
Children don't have rights, don't vote and are not responsible, but under adult tutorship.

[Valentin]

I see Charles allows now stuff like that of TOUT LE MONDE above. Nice. What were you saying to Miquelon before, Charles, about this blog's civility?
Or maybe it's the oversensitive me speaking... Oh well.

[Lily]

« A teacher should never have to submit to a child's "evaluation", in any way, its degrading and unnatural and making kids believe that they're "persons", they have "rights" and that since they know stuff like internet, they would be smarter than their parents, or competent to assume life…”

Anonymous,

No teacher has to “submit” to a child’s evaluation. Children are persons, and they have an opinion. They have rights, too. Their opinion doesn’t make them smarter; neither does the internet. The internet is a reality that we have to put up with.

Teaching is interactive. A teacher isn’t a computer programmer but must deal with the human component of his job – its good and its bad sides.

If children begin denouncing a teacher’s behaviour for whatever reason and his record becomes stained, this is something that can also happen under internet-free circumstances.

On the other hand, one of my own children suffered one year from one teacher, like many kids in his class. I don’t think that ‘internet-rating’ would have changed anything to improve his situation, or damage that person’s reputation other than occurred the old-fashioned way.

[azloon]

[The case for older people like Azloon, apparently, which makes it even more saddening.] ???

is this you, Valentin?

the first thing i want to say is "i resemble..i mean resent, that ! :)

second, i wasn't raised in the 70s culture (and, if i had been, you're saying that would make me OLD? omg, i am ancient as dirt.)

i was raised in the late 40s/50s when 'men were men and women were women, and the opposition was loyal.' i witnessed the birth of rock 'n roll when i was fourteen -- bill haley and the comets (Blackboard Jungle's Rock around the Clock), little richard (closeted gay), chuck berry (liked very young girls), buddy holly (the greatest ever), the big bopper (at age 22, married his 14-year old cousin). i am one of the few still around who knows that half of modern pop songs, including rap, are merely 'covers' for songs by great musicians of times past.

i went to dancing classes to learn etiquette (Miss Pocock brought us to attention with castanets), was taught to say "how-do-you-do" to my father's somewhat self-important employer whose airplane we went out to meet one day. i had a sixth grade teacher, Mr. Sinks, who used to hurl pieces of chalk, with incredible accuracy, at the heads of boys who misbehaved in class (that would be me). and i spent my fair share of time in the 'cloakroom' which was the location of banishment for even minor misbehavior.

does this sound permissive? hardly.

do i think my schooling was an ideal environment, or even good by today's standards. not really. they were ok, but could've been a lot better, as i believe good u.s. schools are today. there are probably more egregiously bad schools today (mostly in banlieues) than back then, but far more good ones.

and as for the late 60s, early 70s, i was in the military where younger enlisted men were starting to smoke 'weed' -- a deal i never really got in on. my drug of choice was a very dry, gin martini (or several), or when were at guantanamo bay torturing foreign nationals for no good reason, it was 'rum goodies' (no torture, just trained there, but if it hadn't been for the rum, our assignments there would have been a form of torture without the assistance of waterboarding).

i came back from vietnam-era duty surprised at the many demonstrations against the war, demonstrations i watched silently from the curb.

so you've got me pegged wrong. as usual. those old stereotypes, biting you on the ass once again.

:)

[Valentin]

Internet is not just some new gadget, Lily, but more like a huge circulation paper. It's equivalent with public speaking, and it has been legally recognized as such. I doubt anyone would ignore such publicity. You would care if that teacher you speak of would start to put out ads about your children all over your town with his own version of facts.
(anonymous above was myself btw)

[Valentin]

Azloon,
I never use stereotypes without a reason :) You said "I agree Lily" and since you agreed with the whole of Lily's post, I put you in the same category: people that don't seem to understand the difference between a pupil and a teacher, between a child and an adult, between asking for an opinion by a principal or inspector and grading or rating (let alone anonymously, on the internet).

At least we got to know more of your thoughts and history. Makes it worth putting that line about you. Next time you might want to detail your wisdom from the beginning.

cheers

:)

[Valentin]

"i had a sixth grade teacher, Mr. Sinks, who used to hurl pieces of chalk, with incredible accuracy"

Well you'll be glad to know a teacher I know went out crying one day after being hurled pieces of chalk at in class. Her conclusion to me was "je suis blasée" because her boss ignores her and she knows she's got NO chance to changing school, because her experience puts her at the bottom of the moving request list.
Of course this rather happens in bad banlieue schools and rarely in good parisian ones, but when you hear two people telling such stories about their classes, it's hard to be fed happy news about our dear "young adults" who should be able to "rate" teachers in the name of the "freedom of speech" or some other kind of "rights".

And no, I'm not gonna "chill".

:o/

[Lily]

"people that don't seem to understand the difference"

oh Valentin, oh Valentin... [Lily shaking her head in disbelief]

This discussion is NOT about your authoritarian versus some anti-authoritarian style of edcuation. To allow children to offer their opinion does not ignore any difference.

They don't evaluate their teacher's knowledge but they learn that they may say how they feel and don't have to surrender to adult authority NO MATTER WHAT.

Under normal circumstances, students (except for the 1 - 5 whiners in every class) will give their teachers moderate and good ratings, and better ratings if a teacher excels and is particularly motivating and charismatic. If disproportionate numbers of students criticize a particular teacher, you can be sure, that there is a problem. And I wish that someone would look into that problem if this was the case.

If post-68 anti-authoritarian education fired back, this doesn't mean that all was bad. Except for a few, people change and learn their lessons.

[Lily]

"she's got NO chance to changing school"

Valentin,

She can always change in order to teach at a private school, - or work harder, get tougher and stop whining. Didn't you offer that comforting recommendation?

Maybe you'll be able to defend a child's interests one day, too.

[gisèle]

"Children don't have rights"

I hope the anonymous person who wrote this NEVER has anything to do with children - this is a dangerous and perverse point of view - also from a very immature mind

[azloon]

[you might want to detail your wisdom from the beginning]

merci beaucoup, Valentin. vous etes la première personne a suggerer que j'ai la sagesse.

your cheque is in the mail.

:)

[Valentin]

Sigh.
Lily, they're not "young adults", no matter how responsibilizing that would be. Children are children and adults are adults, period, things shouldn't be confounded, and unless the difference is understood and marked, things will continue to go wrong. The real dimension is seen not when you deal with good, well raised kids, cherished and cocooned, in ideal school and life situations, but in difficult times. Thats why no matter the good things this brings, in the end, the kids are being lied to. In the past they were made to wear little costumes, but they would have never dared challenge adult authority.
My teacher friends are one example, but I cross teenagers all day long in the city, I see them near schools, in bars and movie houses and on the bus, they are sons of acquaintances or relatives, and the overall impression is that they got way overboard regarding their position.

Pupil opinion is always taken into consideration anyway, rating or not - like I myself said half a dozen times already.
In the present state of things, when teachers are in retreat and authority disputed anywhere and over anything, "rating", as if school was Big Brother, and on a public website!, is not something to be taken easily.
Parents should try to stop being this selfish and rather collaborate with school and try to see things from the other side as well. That will likely stop them from calling a general state of distress (detresse :)) "whining".
The thousands of teachers aggressed each year by "young adult" punks would certainly appreciate it.

But as always in the '70s libertarian logic, we always take the side of the aggressor, against the victim, the side of whoever asks for "rights", over those refusing to give in.
We'll probably have to wait for baby boomers and their direct offspring retire for all this to change - they 're too stuck in their mentality, they'll never learn that between rigid authoritarianism and total lack of limits, there actually is a balance point.

[gisèle]

if we do not respect children and teach them that they too have a right to an opinion then we give them a bad exemple "fais ce que je dis, ne pose pas de questions"

if they can express themselves then what they say can be discussed, they can be helped to reason

if we teach them that they have no right to say anything, that's when they keep it inside and later we (and they) could have problems

you can't help young people to grow up by repressing/oppressing them, it's not healthy

but I can agree that keeping to "idées reçues" is more comfortable than opening your mind, you can be safe hiding behind them instead of facing reality
we can see this in some of the writings here

[Lily]

The teacher assessment business is IMO mainly about “freedom of speech” and modern tools of communication. Before, teachers had a reputation, too; now, their appreciation gets more apparent.

Two or three years ago, I tried to find the address of a former friend in the US. I googled her, and the first thing I found out was that she was a “weird”, “yeah, quite weird” teacher. That indication (i.e. the school she worked at) helped to eventually check her out in the phone book.

I think there is nothing wrong with teacher rating, and I also think that the fuzz about it will subside, as many will become lazy of rating their teachers, and teachers will become lazy of checking out their colleagues’ or their own rating.

Teachers can learn from the criticism they receive (as stated by Monsieur le Prof d’Anglais) or simply enjoy praise.

“…should not give a child the impression he/she actually is the equal of an adult, and even less so of a teacher or a parent.” (Valentin)

Is there any practical consequence to negative ratings students will give their teachers? I don’t think so. Thus students don’t have power over their teachers. Teachers keep the upper hand, in that they may decide whether a student may receive his diploma or move on to the next grade with his peers.

The impression of being equal, i.e. being allowed to speak is an impression of equal human value, not one of equal competence or knowledge (which is why students aren’t asked about their teacher’s knowledge, as criticized by R. Marchenoir).

Pupils/student are ALLOWED to rate their teachers; they are NOT FORCED to pass judgement onto their teachers, and many will prefer not to do this. If they were required to do this, i.e. to rate their teachers and decide on their teacher’s future career by doing so, this would be different.

Pupils at primary school or older students neither have the competence nor the maturity to pass judgement, as teachers are expected to have vis-à-vis their students. They are, however, able to express whether classes are interesting, whether their teacher is fair, etc.

To allow pupils/students to rate their teachers doesn’t or shouldn’t undermine teacher authority in any way.

[V]

Internet is not just some new gadget, but more like a huge circulation paper.
It's equivalent with public speaking, and it has been legally recognized as such.
I doubt anyone would ignore such publicity.
You would care if some former teacher would start publishing ads about your children all over the town with his own version of facts.

Pupil opinion is always taken into consideration anyway, rating or not - like I myself said half a dozen times already.
In the present state of things, when teachers are in retreat and authority disputed anywhere and over anything, "rating", as if school was Big Brother - and on a public website! - is not something to be taken easily.

Parents should try to stop being this selfish and rather collaborate with school and try to see things from the other side as well.
That will likely stop them from calling a general state of distress "whining".
The thousands of teachers aggressed each year by "young adult" punks would certainly appreciate it.

[Anna]

qype.co.uk - a great website covering Germany, France & UK, with reviews and ratings on anything from doctors to tradesmen to beauticians - enjoy it while you can before the vultures close it down!