Nicolas and Carla get married

"Franchement, ça ne fait pas sérieux", my companion said after the phone interrupted our Saturday lunch with the day's big news.  Nicolas Sarkozy, 53, President of France, has this morning married Carla Bruni, 39, the singer-model whom he met in November, a month after his wife left him.

My friend's words sum up the common French reaction to Sarko and his romance on the rebound. The mood of the country is bleak at the moment. The morale of households has sunk to its lowest level for 20 years, according to a poll last week. Sarkozy is perceived -- unfairly -- as a disappointment because he has failed to make everyone better off nine months after his election. His ratings have crashed to around 45 percent support. So there is little rejoicing over the news that the just-divorced president has rushed to marry a beautiful celeb with a sulphurous reputation.

You get the flavour from the profile of France's new first lady which has just been put out by Agence France-Presse, the state news agency. Within three sentences it cited her prodigious roll call of past conquests, ranging from Sir Mick Jagger to French politicians, and then it quoted her saying: "I'm a she-cat, an Italian. I get totally bored in a monogamous relationship." AFP also noted that "she has a son, Aurélien, now six, with Raphael Enthoven, a professor of philosophy, who was himself the son of the publisher Jean-Paul Enthoven, with whom she was living before that." 

Sarkozy's entourage hope that the marriage, conducted on the first floor of the Elysée Palace by the mayor of the eighth arrondissement, will put an end to the president's disastrous playboy phase, which began when he presented Ms Bruni to France from Disneyland Paris in early December. Public opinion took a bleak view of his exhibition of his companion on trips to Egypt and Jordan, their exchange of expensive gifts and his love-struck announcement of their idyll at a palace press conference last month.

Sarkozy is said to be unconvinced that his "bling bling" personal life has contributed to his unpopularity. He puts the slide down to disappointment with the economy and his failure to perform miracles. That is no doubt the biggest factor, but you only have to listen to the chatter in cafes and work places, to know that Sarko's rushed romance has not endeared him to his citizens. It has earned him ridicule that will take time to erase.                

   

Comments

[azloon]

vegas is quoting even odds of this lasting a year

[Blendi Progri]

hallelujah.
__________

…so lets wait for the odds (timeframe-wise), that (soon) my learned friends will give on how long This will last! ;)

[Daisy]

As if this couldn't get better, another report says that one of the witnesses to the wedding was Mathilde Agostinelli...who is/was one of Cecilia's best friends!! He really is trying to re-create Cecilia. You can't make this stuff up, can you?

[John Gregory Flinn]

This man is starting to remind me more and more of John Major, Britain's prime minister before Blair.
He refuses to face up to problems of his own making and blames everyone or everything else.

Well, at least we can send the couple congratulations and wish them every happiness.

[phoebehertzog]

Rien à Signaler
Ca c'est fait
Et Alors
So many sentances come to mind , I gave up caring long ago.

[Dominique]

"Sarkozy is said to be unconvinced that his "bling bling" personal life has contributed to his unpopularity. He puts the slide down to disappointment with the economy and his failure to perform miracles".

Well, sarko is wrong (as often). I don't know anyone who believed the problems France is facing would be solved in 9 months! Even those who voted for him knew it wouldn't be quick. Only Sarko bashers believe that he is not fullfilling promesses they were the only ones to hear.

The decrease of his popularity is clearly linked to the Bruni's monaco style bling bling vulgar presidency. The rest is phantasy.

Sarko will have to face even bigger problems with Bruni : she said she didn't like the french...(see Wikipedia or other references) Can you imagine a first lady, racist toward the people her husband is leading? A chinese first lady saying "i don't like the chineese" or an american first lady claiming "i don't like the americans"?

She was three years old when she arrived in France, her family did left Italia for safety reasons, France was therefore their "terre d'asile". She made her studies here, was succesfull only in France, popular, famous in France only. Her family is succesfull here with her sister being one of the most succesfull actress....but...she probably believes she deserves better... Go for it girl! and give us a break!

That is so much a typical elitist arrogant style of the elite looking down at people saying : "i don't like them". I can't even understand how Sarko did fell into this trap!

I am afraid Sarko will have to face that issue one day...

Will Carla Bruni become "the Italian" just like Marie Antoinette became "the Austrian"? Time will tell. But don't blame the french...

Ah ça ira ça ira ça ira, les aristocrates à la lanterne....

[Joan Arles]

Good luck to Sarko. Maybe people change, but with a track record as lurid as Bruni's, I wouldn't bet on a long future. Still, she's richer than he is, so he needn't worry about being taken to the cleaners when the music stops.

[Paul]

Now thats over and done with, back to work Mr Sarkozy, "Le pouvoir d'achat" needs you...

[Christine]

If I may correct you: Sarkozy is not perceived as a disappointment because he "failed to make everyone better off nine months after his election". It is because he declared that the "pouvoir d'achat", main theme of his campagne, was not really important and that anyhow there was nothing he could about it. As we put in french, "l'arroseur arrosé"...

[Rocket]

http://www.liberation.fr/rebonds/305765.FR.php

gotta admit I agree. Hold on France The show has just begun.

[Sterling]

One thing that really struck me about the wedding today (besides its insane precipitousness) was that Mathilde Agostinelli was a witness for the president. Having known Mathilde quite well for 11 years I can tell you with 100% certainty that until very recently she and Mr Sarkozy had never met. So one of the witnesses at Mr Sarkozy wedding was, in effect, only a step above a stranger.

[Dominique]

Rocket,

I did read Liberation's rebond. I did tend to believe that it was Serge Hefez who did suffer from Sarkoze obsessionnelle

[azloon]

Rocket:

this piece from 'liberation' discusses sarkozy in terms taken from the "DSM", a generally accepted international reference for diagnosis of mental disorders. narcissism, nervous tics, delusions of grandeur, though i didn't see any mention of bi-polar disorder which was the diagnosis this blog conferred upon him.

is this the level of discussion of le president in france today? that NS is genuinely disturbed, that france may actually have a 'nut case' in the Elysee?

le pauvre Charles, sitting at lunch after laboring over a saturday piece about legion d'honneur conferees, and he gets a phone call that sarko is married. is there no end to this drama? what is it? five years or six?

oh, btw, the 'liberation' piece indicates the term of office may be irrelevant. it suggests that NS may self-destruct before the end of his term.

don't count on it.

this guy is the energizer bunny. he keeps going, and going and going and going............

[Daniel Strohl]

Rocket,

Thanks for the "Libération" link. However, I didn't manage to read the article up to the end.

One sees interviews of psychiatrists from time to time on TV. Some of them seem to be quite normal and balanced persons, some of them could (almost) be exchanged with their patients - I tend to believe that the Libération "expert" belongs to the second category - LOL!

And he seems to recruit his patients at the (former) Ligue Communiste Révolutionnaire, where himself has been trained .)

More seriously, I am not sure wether the bulk of his colleagues are pleased with this type of pseudo-scientific literature, even if it is meant to be funny (?).

[Valentin]

The daily Liberation, as well as Marianne magazine have a long history of portraying Sarkozy as a madman, a danger, a dictator in making, a far right (ie fascist).
Indeed that's the level of discussion - *their* level.

He's an energizer bunny Azloon, but for "knowing" him as well as you do Obama, I can tell you they have much more in common than it might be suspected.

[Daniel Strohl]

Dominique,

Honestly, did you manage to read the article of Dr. Hefez up to the end ?

Si oui, chapeau ! On vous décerne la médaille de la résistance !

Azloon,

"is this the level of discussion of le president in france today ?"

Of course not. It is however the level in a few "milieux de gauche".
It is a mixture of hatred and stupidity and glee.

"this guy is the energizer bunny."
We have got a similar ad here - very funny !

"which was the diagnosis this blog conferred upon him".

Azloon, we have got a few Dr.Diafoirus on the blog - LOL!
(Dr.Diafoirus is a character of "Le Malade Imaginaire" de Molière).

[christopher muir]

One day, Sarkozy will tell his wife that enough is enough. Having heard “Quelq’un m’a dit” for the two thousandth time will surely exhaust his patience... However, for any amateur psychologists searching for clues about palace moods, a quote by a Canadian performer (Terri Clark) is quite helpful. "Artists who write songs... what they're going through usually comes through in their music. “ I wonder if Sarko's thought about the possibility of coded lyrics.

[Terry]

I must say, the picture showing Sarko and his new bride wearing black in the desert is rather unfashionable. I have been to the pyramids and NO ONE wore black. Is this the new bedouian look?

The noire euro chic look has no place in Egypt. I think white or your standard khaki would have been more appropriate for the sands of Giza.

Then again, I wear sweater vests.

[Emlyn]

I see a great deal of hypocrisy and maybe jealousy too from the present very promiscuous society: there are thousands of young women who sleep around as easily, if not more so, than Carla Sarkozy.

[qwerty]

About the problem with the French buying power that Sarkozy is accused of not dealing with, apart from saying "let them work harder":

I know that the price of basic food products has gone up because of new consumers in emerging markets, and that the rent level is really scandalous in France (but more so in all other developed countries...).

But apart from that, has it really degraded that much or is it that the consumer pattern is changing and the French now want to buy things that weren't even on the market a few years ago? Mobile phones, i-pods, flat screens, HD... These are luxury goods, aren't they? We're spoiled, aren't we?

[Emlyn]

Is the rent level really scandalous in France? A one-bedroom flat in Bromley (Greater London) will cost at least £600 per month.

[millier marc]

its a great new!!!!!
J'attends la suite avec impatience
et ils eurent de beaux bébés.!!

[dot king]

There you go, all of you, straight into Sarko-bashing - my mother would have joined in, calling it a "hole and corner wedding" and saying that she's probably pregnant otherwise why no state wedding she could watch on telly?
Honestly, what a load of grouches you all are!
Why can't you just be happy for them - like me? ;0

[millier marc]

j'en connais..
j'en connais des qui charment
des qui me laissent femme
j'en connais qui me pçament
j'en connais des jlois
des qui roulent comme des filles
des qui me piquent mes bodys.

j'en connais tant tellement ça me prend tout mon temps

et mçeme ma maman qui m'adoe tendrement elle me dit " c'est pas bien" ce n'est pas bon tout ce rien
regarde ton droit chemin..

j'en connais des supberbes
des bien mçurs des acerbes.
des velus des imberbes.
j'en connais des sublimes.
des me,ndiants, des richissimes.
des que la vie abçime.

j'en connais mçeme tellement qu'çà me prend trop de temps!!!
et ma pauvre maman se dit en soupirant
Quai-je fait pourcela.
Est-ce de ma faute à moi.

j'en connais dans chaque port.
dans sud, dans chaque nord..

J'en connais sans efforts
j'en connais qui vont dire
Que je suis bonne à maudire
Et moi ça me fait sourire...

chanson de Carla Sarkozi..

Nous lui souhaitons simplement d'en connaitre encore et encore ... '

[millier marc]

l'amour.

l'amour ....pas pour moi
Tous ces toujours, c'est pas net, ça joue des tours.
ça approche ,sans se montrer
comme des traitres de velours
ça me blesse ou me lasse , selon des jours.

parole de Carla..

Sorry for our english readers , but its impossible for me to translate in your language..!!!! its to difficult for my broken english..

[Valentin]

Emlyn,
That would be true in Paris as well.

[Valentin]

QWERTY:
"These are luxury goods, aren't they? We're spoiled, aren't we?"

There's also the marketing engine turning at full throttle.
Marketing and advertising techniques evolved and are extremely efficient in creating the desire for a new product, even when there's no real need for it.
I know people who own several digital cameras, computers, mobile phones or media players, simply because the urge to buy a new model is almost irrepressible.

We can also note that while everybody complains, the French have never spent so much. The economic growth is mainly sustained by the interior spending.
The demand is such that imports continue to grow much faster than exports for years already.
That's why economists agree that more purchasing power will just go to imports, raise the debt and raise the prices too, with no good effect on the French economy.

[Valentin]

STERLING:
"One thing that really struck me about the wedding today (besides its insane precipitousness) was that Mathilde Agostinelli was a witness for the president."

First of all, I'm not sure it's for us to judge how things evolve in a couple. There can be a marriage after 3 months, after 3 years, or not at all.
Secondly, if you knew Ms. Agostinelli so well, you would also know that she's been a friend of Carla Bruni for a long time, which is why, at the wedding, she was a witness for Carla, not for Nicolas Sarkozy.

[Doremi]

I think it's great, it says a lot of the power and skill of our president.
He got a woman known for her aversion to commitment and sexual-fidelity deficit to marry him. He had said, "enough with hypocrisy" and as a man of 2 failed marriages and countless notches on his bed post ( I assume, a French's man reputation is at stake) he has married an bed-hoping ex-model ( not even French) with a child with the son of Enthoven Jr pinched while living with Enthoven Snr. In with the times, I say.
She will be perfect for the job, both can't do sexual fidelity, and as a model she knows how the look good in pictures and sell what ever she is told to sell. As long as she does not sing it's fine.
The woman he was living with when Cecilia left him must be fuming, so close she was, with the fridge-buying exercise.

Emlyn

Of course there is a great deal of hypocrisy and maybe jealousy, plenty of women sleep around, but Carla seem to be doing it in 800 thread count sheets and with top quality babes. As a woman of means it's a nice gig if you like it, can afford it and get to sing about it. With less money, a job maybe children and a partner, bed hoping can be dangerous and not just to your health - and I am by no means a prude. I would love to try my luck at be a seductress but I have been let down by my genes. Plus I have a job, 2 hours daily commute, I am too tired at the end of it for small talk, I like to read in bed and despite being from Venus my ascendant is pugnacious. I remember seeing a picture of Carla and her parents by Helmut Newton where she was sitting on her father's lap and being disturbed by her choice of revealed underwear.

By the way, £600 is becoming the standard price of double room minus bill in zone 2+. (zone 1 is £800+ sans bills)

[pulsimonium]

Good luck to them I say. They are a good looking couple and I am fed up with all the bitching about her and all the derogatory comments about him. Vive la France!

[azloon]

[He's an energizer bunny Azloon, but for "knowing" him as well as you do Obama, I can tell you they have much more in common than it might be suspected.] Valentin

V, tell us more about this observation of yours.

i can't imagine NS working as a community organizer in banlieues as obama did in the 'hood' of Chicago for many years before being elected to office.

and i don't believe sarko is as intelligent as obama (i.e., pure brain power), tho perhaps as, or more, clever. Obama was editor-in-chief of the Harvard Law Review which essentially means he was the brightest and most able student in a group of highly intelligent students. i don't see NS as a serious student, more of an operator, a deal-maker -- tho obama is not bad in this area either.

i don't see Obama sucking up to the 'rich and famous' as sarko seems 'fatally attracted' to doing. Obama's suport base, and inner circle, consists largely of much more ordinary citizens. except for fund raising efforts, you won't see obama eating dinner at the four seasons in NY with 'glitterati."

re their ambition levels: many similarities, tho Obama may be a bit more audacious that Sarko, given O's age (10 years younger than NS) and his quickly 'coming out of nowhere" to stand where he does now.

sarko is no 'slouch' in the audacity area: being a party insider and minister who openly criticized his president and prime minister while avoiding being 'sacked," and obviously being quite bold in proposals for change, and a few of his 'stunts' as president.

what do you see?

[C Park]

Give the guy a break, he's in Luuurve.
Of all the countries in the world surely the French understand that.

Now he's bagged her he can get on with sorting the economy.

[John]

So the AFP is France's state news agency? And I suppose Reuters is the UK state news agency then?

Anyway, more gossiping I see. When I discovered this blog in 2006 I used to think it was good, but now I think it has fallen down in terms of quality, with most of the articles devoted to uninteresting gossiping about the private life of people and shallow reporting of the Paris chronique mondaine (like spending more time commenting on details of Attali's speech in front of the president rather than on the content of the Attali Commission's report itself). Has Charles Bremner transferred from The Times to The Sun perhaps? Note that it's the same owner anyway. (chuckles)

[Glad to see you're still reading despite your distaste, John. Just to correct your facts, AFP is substantially subsidised by the French tax-payer. It is an admirable news agency but it is also the clearing house for government information. Reuters is an international corporation with absolutely no connection to the UK state. As for the rest, you're entitled to your point of view. CB]

[Terry Empson]

One of the pleasing bye-products of the marriage is the series of photographs being circulated by e-mail under the title "La Nouvelle Réussite de Nicholas", in some of which the full extent of Cara's charms are disclosed. The set I got came via Monterrey in Mexico, so it looks as though quite a chunk of the Western hemisphere has, as it were, been put in the picture. The slide show ends with the pertinent question "Il est trop fort, notre Sarko: qui fera mieux?"

[concedo nulli]

Azloon, Obama could flourish at Harvard Law School then do some time as a community organiser. Do you know about lack of opportunities in France when you want to make the most of your education or to be socially constructive. This is an ailing country eaten up by negative preconceptions. That is why NS inspires hope and confidence in some who want this country to be alive.

[anotherjohn]

Fictional scene of conversation at Windsor ....(to any readers, please note this is a purely fictional scene, if it any resemblance to any purported, or recent news, it's entirely unintentional)...

Prince Philip: (Looking and answering to an inquiring group of French dignarities (aka, a visiting group of 'Royalty')

You know, Henry VIII, he had a lot of wives ....

Carla looking (away)....towards portraits - at some of the other ancient monarch's portraits
Is heard (singing...) J'en connais .....(presumably somewhere at Windsor)

French dignitary: 5
To be exact....

Silence.
....The party resumes ....as (in a scene from Chaucerian times....

[Valentin]

Azloon,

There's little point comparing Obama's and Sarkozy's past, the setting is too different.
Community work has not the same meaning or importance in France, since the state is supposed to take care of those issues.
A school like Harvard might be the Polytechnics, the HEC or the ENA schools in France, but it's very hard to compare them; an ENA graduate is indeed supposed to be very intelligent, but the system is sometimes so skewed that you get someone like Ségolène Royal or François Hollande.

As to the rich, there is no proof whatsoever that Sarkozy would have ever sucked up, in the sense that he would have been influenced by / do services to them. That's not just a statement, there really is no hint of incestuous relationship.

Again, France is very different of the US in all these respects.

No, when I said they'd do a good team, or that they have things in common, I meant the future.

There is to Sarkozy the same sense of freshness, hopefulness as you called it, also the capacity of finding a clever word or turn of phrase in any situation - Sarkozy is quite famous here for this, and quite alone in his class.
Sarkozy's approach is breaking with all known recipes, his way of reaching out to opponents, talking with everybody, personally involving in dangerous situations without fear, his way of avoiding full scale strikes, a French specialty, by masterfully handling the media or using second-level talks.
There's also to Sarkostyle the appeal to the simple citizen, a bit à l'americaine as we say, using short statements, repetitions, and simple, obvious logic and appealing to people's sense of fairness, justice or even sacrifice. Some of his speeches are a work of art of rhetoric.
Finally, Sarkozy's plans are sometimes seen as naïve and everybody is left pondering: one can never be quite sure the guy isn't just talking them into agreement, or the plan really is revolutionary.

It's difficult to compare them, Sarkozy is a seasoned politician, with a lot of experience in all intricacies of power, a lot of well placed friends, but also a lot of enemies - not only the Left, but also the center, the people around former president Chirac and many others.
Obama is much younger and less experienced. But they have the same huge brains, visionary approach, and I would even say class: you who so admire Obama's, should have seen Sarkozy other than on holiday :) (for the fun of it, you can go here :
http://dcpleats.blogspot.com/2007/08/obama-sarkozy-top-esquires-best-dressed.html
or here:
http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/actualites/medias/presse/20070731.OBS8873/sarkozy_figure_parmiles_hommes_les_plus_elegants.html )

[Valentin]

John,

You're not alone to make those observations, many of us asked Charles before to change from the daily Sarkostory.
Unfortunately all media ressembles more and more to the Sun. Even left leaning French papers made huge Unes on Sarko again and again. On the other hand, it's not all their (journalists') fault: the truth is that not one day passes without Sarkozy being at the core of some new story. They literally make a living on Sarko alone, for the last year and a half.
If he sued them, I'm not sure he wouldn't get fat royalties :)

[I don't agree with you Valentin. Sarkozy's private life became a political story and matter of legitimate interest when he came off the rails following his divorce last October. France has a republican monarchy, with the most powerful chief executive in the democratic world so Sarko's unstable behaviour has been a major news story. CB]

[dot king]

Erm, didn't Henry VIII have six wives?

[Blendi Progri]

Azloon, I was online yesterday, shortly just looking about, when I saw the new Article by CB appear, so posted quickly-hoping I`ll be the first, LOL, but it wasn’t to be, you beat me to it.

My post (I hadn’t seen yours - as it wasn’t in the blogg when I posted mine,) and yours were the same about odds. We must forget Carla for a mo, and think of the odds, of two diff posts with the same thought,,, from 2 diff continents... at nearly the same time, LOL.

Do you give that marriage till December 08?
I do. But 2009 may be stormy...

Cecilia, by comparison will look very dignified, I suspect that If C.Brunni Leaves, she will make ballads and immortalise Sarko in songs, then… the messy bit will start.

Wishing both well though.

[Doremi]

"There's also to Sarkostyle the appeal to the simple citizen"

Yes, he appeals to the simpletons who can't get a ride on their friend's yatch.

[john o'doe]

I may have dreamt this but I'm pretty sure that on Saturday, LCI's news bulletin announcing the marriage (witnesses discreetly provided by LVMH and Prada) was followed directly by the Lancia car ad featuring Carla Bruni. Very strange...the President's new wife advertising chic little Italian cars on the day of her wedding!
It left me wondering if this ad campaign is going ahead regardless of changed status.
Word has it that Carla would have preferred a proper ceremony at the mairie for this, her first marriage. Cécilia could have warned her that he's tightfisted but it turns out Sarko is not so bling bling after all - he didn't follow the latest celebrity trend of getting a mag such as Paris Match to pay for the wedding in return for exclusive coverage.

[qwerty]

About relative intelligence of Obama/Sarkozy (see Azloon and other commentators):

Both Obama and Sarkozy are attorneys (as are Tony Blair, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, Mitterrand....). It has been said (at least, I've heard it) that in terms of intelligence, you'd have to come from Polytechnique in France if you wanted to qualify as an American attorney... This isn't very flattering for the French legal profession. However, it may not be sans fondement. Anyway, I don't think Sarkozy ever earned the reputation of being a brilliant lawyer, but maybe it's because he's more interested in politics.

[Daniel Strohl]

Doremi,

« Yes, he appeals to the simpletons »
I did follow the appeal – LOL ! I feel much more at ease with this
community than with the community of our « intellectuels de gauche », who belong to a species practically extinct all over Europe, except in France, where we furthermore have also got a surviving « mammot », even if the beast is ailing.

PS : for our foreign friends not familiar with French political paleontology : Claude Allègre, a respected scientist, had been appointed Ministre de l’Education Nationale in Jospin’s government, under Mitterrand. Allègre is known for his frankness – this does of course not please everybody. Amidst a few other undiplomatic commentaries, he managed to call his bloated ministry « le mammouth ». Of course, this was not very popular. Some time later, Jospin had to dismiss him, even if both gentlemen are friends. Allègre has left the socialist party a few weeks ago – Sarkozy is said to consider him as a future minister.

John,

"I don't think Sarkozy ever earned the reputation of being a brilliant lawyer"

One may say the same regarding Mitterrand - but one can't say (even if one dislikes him - my case) that he was not intelligent ...

PS : A few days ago, Mrs. Mitterrand had her husband's lawyer robe along with other personal stuff sold at a public auction (for her fundation). Our leftist friends, who are sometimes not afraid to wrap themselves in high-nosed dignity, forgot to point this out for our foreign friends on the blog...

[Dominique]

QWERTY,

"It has been said [...] that in terms of intelligence, you'd have to come from Polytechnique in France if you wanted to qualify as an American attorney... This isn't very flattering for the French legal profession "

Or it isn't very flattering for the american judiciary system...?

[Daniel Strohl]

Dominique,

"Or it isn't very flattering for the american judiciary system...?"

LOL !

[Valentin]

Charles, maybe the interest in Sarko's private life became a neverending story in october, still it wasn't for the first time: for weeks and weeks the whole press analyzed Cécilia's behaviour at the end of the campaign, then on election days
(did she vote, did she not, why didn't she, why was she late at Concorde, why absent at Fouquet's etc etc). Then came the installation at Elysée palace, with endless accents on the "reunited family", the blonde gang, the new Kennedy and so on.
Then the lybian adventure, the New York trip, the new departure, the divorce.

Such news about such powerful figure as the French President will always make headlines, that's normal. Things is, this is (with two or three exceptions) ALL we talk about for a long time now.

(this is not to tell you what to write, of course.. I just enjoy every single unpolitical post - especially that Sarko is not exactly in a very good position right now :))

[Valentin]

Azloon:
"Obama's suport base, and inner circle, consists largely of much more ordinary citizens."

This should have been in my post on Sarkozy vs Obama before.
If I remember well, at the last elections, Sarkozy was the favourite of the popular classes, workers, and also entrepreneurs and senior citizens (who, despite physical impairments, often have very good understanding of political realities ;)).
Those who rather preferred Ségolène Royal (may her presidential ambitions be crushed!) were people around 20 yo and metropolitan cadres (often with very good jobs and salaries).

[Blendi Progri]

Today in The Times there was a good photo of Nico & Carla in front page (pointing out to page 13 of CB`s article) the photo was nice I must admit.

World summits will never be boring,Sarko can be the marriage councelor for the leaders; even teach them how to find a young wife.

This saga of Sarkosy's wedding to Carla Bruni is just an example of the mess this world is in today.

It is sad to see that the President of France appearing so powerful to stand up as the front man of his country yet so weak"

So weak that he fell in the deadly trap of Beauty, Lust, Money, and Status.

Is he really the man equipped to be running a country?

Where is the morale?

I think as a society globally we have really lost it.

[Heather UK]

I think that this farcical marriage will have a deeper effect on the French people than even Sarko can imagine.
Will they ever trust him again - all his promises at election time - and within the first year he achieves very little - apart from making himself look very stupid.

France needs and deserves better than this

[EYGH]

Whatever (bad) I think about the present medias in general and the anglo ones in particular (especially when France and all things French are concerned), I must admit that M. Bremner is doing a better job in general at presenting news on the French reality.

Nevertheless, the whole Sarko (very Parisian) circus with its appaling details is really too much.

Please have a look at a very good analysis on the anglo medias "reporting" on France. The comments are very interesting too.

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2008/2/2/122550/4824

[Hope]

The latest controversy is whether or not Carla is now French.

Interviewed on Europe 1, Claude Guéant, (secrétaire général de l'Elysée) Someone who marries a French person automatically becomes French."

Which we all know isn't true! Unless the rules are different for the head of state...

[christopher muir]

Unimportant perhaps, but why is today's Le Figaro writing that Carla is worth four times Sakozy's financial worth? Just wondering.

[john o'doe]

Guéant knows nothing. The latest Madame Sarkozy is an Italian national and may even still be fiscally domiciled in Monaco. As a EU citizen living in France (even at the Elysee) she has no right to vote in French national elections so she will not be able to vote for Nicolas even if she wanted to. Cécilia had the right but not the inclination.

[Actu75]

@Eygh
Interesting link.
Some posts bring fresh air of anglo-saxon "resistance" to the traditionnal mix of prejudices inspiring a large part of british & US medias reporting on France.
At the opposite, and "nonobstant" sources of disagreements, not only does C. Bremner provide a much better coverage than those, but often a better coverage than the french medias.

[christopher muir]

I had meant to include this link in my last post. It stretches the imagination a bit, but in today;s circumstances seems relevant enough. Rosemary Clooney...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-nDDeo8kpo

[Doremi]

Daniel Strohl

What did you expect from a man with a long history of betrayals - political and personals- and a patchy history as a minister. He was in the old regime and part of the problem, he did not land from Mars did he?

I did not buy into " let mother ( too regal, authoritarian/ disciplinarian for my taste either) take care of you children" either.

Lots of socialists and left leaning people were let down by the Enarque PS & Gauche caviar with their discourse totally at odds with the problems of ordinary people. Many vote National Front , when they used to vote Communist, just to get them to take notice. Sarkosi plain-speak was a breath of fresh air, yes, like demagogy spoken by Cristal swinging Plutocrats.

Yet it's an insult to call people on the SMIC and on the breadline "lazy". Of course people want to earn more, 35 hours was a stupid idea, but if they work in a factory or an office, it's their boss who will tell if they can or not; they can't give themselves a 174% raise or afford to seduce a heiress model-what-ever when they wife leaves them. If we all need to change with the times, I want a leader that I can look up to not the ones who, like many before him, goes by the " do as I say not as I do".
Appropriating the NF rhetoric, giving it an acceptable spin, tickling the easily reachable " let's blame the foreigner" French's bone is easy but counter productive on the long run.

[qwerty]

OK, OK, Dominique and Daniel!
Maybe it's the US legal system that is stupid. And in support of this, just look at the way American (& English!) agreements are drafted: so different from the concise, elegant, understated (too understated?) French contracts, where everything is implied and does not have to be spelled out in such redundant detail because the basic issues (at least) are contained in statutory law anyway. Much more intelligent approach. But that's why you need to be a polytechnicien to practice US law.

[Daniel Strohl]

Qwerty,

"But that's why you need to be a polytechnicien to practice US law".

re-LOL!

[Daniel Strohl]

Doremi,

"35 hours was a stupid idea" - both of us agree with that.

But the socialist intelligentsia was not intelligent enough to admit it prior to the elections, thinking that "les masses" were stupid enough not to see that we are living in a changing world, with changing rules and a fierce international competition.

Doremi, you have your opinions (which I respect, of course) - I have mine.

Sarkozy is the president right now. The electors will give their opinion in 2012. And those who do not like him should show the stiff upper lip until 2012 ... May be - and hopefully - the socialists will at that time be well organized with a serious and credible programme.

[Doremi]

Daniel Strohl , you have your opinions (which I respect, of course) - I have mine - ditto

French don't do stiff-upper lip, they do moaning and good satire, otherwise how would we have gotten rid off the "L’État, c’est moi”,
notion.

Hopefully the socialists will remove their head from their rectal cavities, ditch the dogma, own-up and learn from their mistakes. The only way towards progress, better than the NF route.

[Terry]

Qwerty said:

"French contracts, where everything is implied and does not have to be spelled out in such redundant detail because the basic issues (at least) are contained in statutory law anyway. Much more intelligent approach."

Yes. When I draft contracts, I leave out as much detail as possible. I like to leave as much to chance as possible. That's the whole purpose of a contract, isnt it? So we can litigate later all the provisions we should have put there in the first place.

[Daniel Strohl]

Terry,

"That's the whole purpose of a contract, isnt it?"

This reminds me of what a member of my family used to say some decades ago : in parliament, laws are designed by lawyers in a manner enabling other lawyers to "turn" them ("tourner une loi").

[Daniel Strohl]

Eygh,

Your eurotrib.com link is very interesting - the commentaries too are interesting.

"Nevertheless, the whole Sarko (very Parisian) circus with its appalling details is really too much".

And the circus continues! Mille millions de sabords !

Regarding the French press, and a few others as well, I think that they "n'ont pas digéré la leçon que Sarko leur a infligée lors de sa conférence de presse début janvier".

CB wrote that it was obvious that Sarko had carefully planned his attack on Joffrin (the right word would be counter-attack) - probably yes, but there were at least 50 journalists at this press conference who too had carefully prepared in advance their questions (including Joffrin, qui a dû constater fort marri que Sarko avait le cerveau plus rapide que lui).

[dot king]

Mais Daniel, le cerveau de Sarko est et train de ralentir - sinon reculer, n'est-ce pas?
On va a une "conférence" avec des réponses à des questions des journalistes qu'on indique le moment choisi, c'est du cynisme pûr.

[Valentin]

LOL I'll jump in to defend Laurent Joffrin here: anyone who saw Sarko in interviews or free discussions knows how hard is to face his quick replies and turns of phrase. When most politicians measure their words so carefully that you go home wondering what they meant, with Sarko a brilliant comeback is guaranteed.
Joffrin didn't have much chance, and we should at least give him credit for his bravery :)

[Daniel Strohl]

Valentin,

"and we should at least give him credit for his bravery :)

Oui, mais rien de plus :)

Dot,

"c'est du cynisme pûr."

??

PS : Joffrin est journaliste, Sarkozy est président. Chacun fait son boulot - Sarkozy l'a fait mieux que Joffrin et les autres - y a pas photo - LOL!

[EYGH]

Daniel,

No matter what I think of certain French journalists questions, I personnaly have not found Sarko brilliant.

A lot of what he says shows how little he knows about French history and even institutions.

If the French left leaning press deserves critics so does the right leaning one.

And despite their self glorification I'm not particularly impressed by the anglosphere press either.

I'll post something about it in the latest thread.

[dot king]

"PS : Joffrin est journaliste, Sarkozy est président. Chacun fait son boulot - Sarkozy l'a fait mieux que Joffrin et les autres - y a pas photo - LOL!"
(Daniel)

Oui, mais Daniel, nous ne sommes pas tous de cet avis. A mon avis, ce n'est pas "le job" du Président du gagner des points sur des journalistes, c'est d'être président.
J'ai de la patience, et je n'ai pas oublié ma promesse, j'attends, et j'attends qu'il se comporte enfin en président digne du nom.

[millier marc]

joffrin is a good french journalist.
and quite bravery.and honest..In fact,he asked good questions to the president!! sarko was nervous and very agressif.
SARKO hate journalists.
the no french readers don't know sarko very well.
my opinions is that Americans and englishs media were very pro-sarko.
now a lot of them are a bit amaze about his true personnality.
My father's family born in lived to
NEUILLY-sur-seine!!!!!
and I have followed the sarko's politic carrer for a long time now..

its shame for my country to get one clown as president.

[dot king]

"the no french readers don't know sarko very well." (Marc Millier)

Marc some of us live in France full-time and follow everything closely. I know card-carrying UMP members who are very disappointed with Sarkozy. There are a few French bloggers who are incredibly uncritical of the president.

[Valentin]

Marc,
Joffrin may be a good journalist, as long as we forget what Daniel said: it's all down to satisfying one's readers and increasing sales, no matter the means.

I suppose you've also been ashamed of Mitterrand entertaining his mistress, leading a polygamous life, phonetapping journalists, staging a murder attempt on himself, or being involved in all those mobster affairs.
As Terry said, leftwing France must have grown quite puritanical to get so shocked by Sarko divorcing then re-marrying, or going on a holiday with his girlfriend.

Finally, the difference between Sarko supporters and anti-Sarko people, is that the former are not blindly so, have logical reasons for their positions. The latter can be recognized by their visceral "anti"-ism, which, like any kind of hatred, justifies itself, and repeats the same "anti-" slogans on and on, MAYbe SOMEthing will remain in the end.

[millier marc]

yes I understand your point of view..the nurse in my little village
MILLY-LA -FORET (jean cocteaux lived there) is english too. I know close a lot of people come from uk.byt they have moved here recently.Sarko has started his politic career around 35 years ago now.My own father and my own grand-father born to NEUILLY s/s ..Avenue du Roule exactly.
mor me this president isn't correct for my country.He is rude. very rude.(Il tutoie les gens sans les connaitre) ni Charles de Gaulle , ni Mitterand et evdemment ni Chirac ont eu un tel comportement.
Je suis tellement outré que j'ai vraiment honte.He will go in Uk on Mars ..oh my god!!!!!!!

[Daniel Strohl]

Eygh,

"If the French left leaning press deserves critics so does the right leaning one.

And despite their self glorification I'm not particularly impressed by the anglosphere press either."

I agree with both statements. The problem is that many journalists (right leaning ones too, of course) write in a hurry about matters that they do no understand fully.

"A lot of what he says shows how little he knows about French history and even institutions".

May be you are right - but what is important is what he has already done, which was deemed impossible one year ago (à titre d'exemple, tout le monde s'est toujours couché devant la CGT depuis 1945 - pas lui), and what he intends and manages to do in the future. One should let him work and judge on the results, not on character "flaws", which is the distinguished speciality of this blog (and of most of the press).

Dot,

"There are a few French bloggers who are incredibly uncritical of the president.

LOL ! Please read my above post to Eygh. This may explain that there are different manners to criticize.

Valentin,

"MAYbe SOMEthing will remain in the end.

For our foreign friends, a pertinent and equivalent French saying is "Calomniez, calomniez, il en restera toujours quelque chose".

"staging a murder attempt on himself"

Anyone interested in the story should type "affaire observatoire Mitterrand" in the search field of Google - the first answer (in English) ahead of the first result page is quite explicit.

PS : Dot, if I remember well, you have already used the word "stage" regarding Sarkozy ...

Marc,

"He will go in Uk on Mars ..oh my god!!!!!!!"

Marc, les Rosbifs en ont vu d'autres - LOL!

[dot king]

"PS : Dot, if I remember well, you have already used the word "stage" regarding Sarkozy ... " (Daniel)

Huh? ich verstehe das nicht . . .

[millier marc]

pour l'instant c'est les grenouilles
qui souffrent et pas les anglais .
J'espére qu'il représentera la France correctement en mars en Grande Bretagne.
Il ne s'agit pas de calmonie, son attitutde est réelle, et malheureusement connu depuis longtemps.Dommage pour nous, les medias français s'en aperçoivent que maintenant.Il nourrit lui-même les medias people.(sa visite chez Mickey) ..etc etc
Je vis dans un petite ville de 4500
habitants. 65% de votes pour Super-Sarko..J'entends bien les électeurs chaque jours faire des commentaires sur SARKO.
sa politique , ses methodes. il fait un discours et il fait le contraire le lendemain. (exemple les municipales) il y a un tant d'exemple.
SARKO n'est pas de Gaulle
SARKO est le roi de la communication et des effets d'annonces.

[millier marc]

every presidents of . 5eme republic gets bad affair not only Mitterrand. I'm not member of PS.
de Gaulle with the Ben Barka affair. Pompidou with Markowicz with Delon and so on. Giscard with diamond from africa. and of course Chirac.I suppose that you know the Chirac bigraphy,§
but the worst is Super SARKO.

[Valentin]

"if I remember well, you have already used the word "stage" regarding Sarkozy"

LOL Daniel, si je peux me permettre, vous perdez votre temps : y'en a qui aiment jouer les innocents dès que quelqu'un semble avoir raison à leur encontre. Been there. Bof.

[Maggie G]

I'm lost. How was the word "stage" used concerning Sarkozy?

As in, "He had a long career, both in the movies and on the stage"?

Or as in, "We are still in the early stage of Sarkozy's presidency"?

Or as in "A gang of bandits robbed the stage coach"?

Or was it the French meaning of "stage"?

[dot king]

Daniel, malgré le commentaire intrus ci-dessus, je ne sais pas du tout de quoi vous voulez parler - "stage"?
ce n'es pas dans MES habitudes de mentir, ni de changer de cap lorsque les choses vont contre moi. Je ne pratique pas de malhonnêteté contrairement à certains.

Valentin n'est qu'un petit minable toujours prêt à transférer ses propres fautes sur les autres.

S'il y a quelqu'un sur ce blog qui mérite un "BOF" c'est bien Valentin.

[millier marc]

edgar Faure disait.!!!!!!!!
"c'est pas la girouette qui tourne !c'est le vent".

[Valentin]

If I remember well, the diamond affair was a setup. Giscard was quite spotless, besides young and energetic president (much like Sarkozy). He crushed Mitterrand with the famous:

"vous n'avez pas le monopole du coeur"

He would have well deserved a second term.

[Daniel Strohl]

Valentin,

LOL !

[millier marc]

Dear Valentin.
I'm flabergasted. You admire
Mitterrand so much??????
in each message you wrote about him.?????
Mitterrand was elected almost 30 years ago.!
The new husband of CARLA is SARKO no Mitterrand.
The sarkosziste perdent les pedales!!!!!!!!!!!! devant le super champion.
this blog is avout this new weeding. not about les turpitudes mitterrandiennes

[Daniel Strohl]

Marc,

"c'est pas la girouette qui tourne !c'est le vent".

Excellente citation. C'était un cas, le père Edgar !

Il y a beaucoup de vents tournants en France - mais pas seulement en France (heureusement pour nous!) - LOL !

Maggie, Dot

I am sorry - I didn't intent at all to be cryptic nor of course to do any personal attack. Dot had used the verb "to stage" à propos de Sarkozy - he had "staged" his now famous conférence de presse beginning of January. If one compares both "stagings", Mitterrand was a master (even if the Observatoire story "s'est terminée en eau de boudin"), and Sarkozy a modest and inexperienced apprentice ... LOL!

[Valentin]

I see Dorothy appropriated and masters the whole insult range in French as well as she does in English. Wow! How Impressing :)
And then, she, so intelligent and well-read, has such complete blackouts. Second degree becomes a mistery, irony is suddenly meaningless, parody is just puzzling nonsense, she forgets what she so fiercely defended not only one month ago, but a few days ago again (speaking about Sarko's press conference).
Dorothy is becoming a double reference for me: both in insult capacity, and in blogging macchiavelism.
I'll never dream to better her in any of those respects, so I leave her the last word (for no doubt we'll be entitled to one).

Marc,
We refer to Mitterrand for two reasons:
- he's been president for 14 years, not only in the '80s, but also well into the '90s
- he's a reference for the French Left; or we notice the double standard used when they speak about Sarkozy: for faults ten times lighter, Sarko is practically lynched by the leftwing mob. It's our duty to emphasize this and set things straight.

[dot king]

Gott im Himmel Daniel, that was ages ago, and on a long abandoned thread, and nothing to do with Mittérand - on whom I've never made a comment!
I thought you were referring to something on this thread - and try as I might I couldn't find it.
All's clear(ish) now :)

A nice example of Einstein's time/space curvature - only not by means of gravity, but according to the point one wants to make:

DOT KING 10 Feb 2008 16:33:19
not so long ago more than one blogger told him to get off my back after days of shrill insults over the word "gangster".
(re posts 10-16 Jan 2008, thread: "Sarkozy, the Cécilia version")

DOT KING 10 Feb 2008 17:46:45
(re posts 9-17 Jan 2008, thread: "It's love, says Sarkozy")

Gott im Himmel Daniel, that was ages ago, and on a long abandoned thread

[millier marc]

the french president is SARKOzy.
not mitterrand. he died for ages ago now..
We could speak also about Jeanne d'arc.!
I'm sorry but its a joke.
by the way. Have you heard Sarko tonight??
le sauveur de l'europe !! its a joke again.

[Valentin]

"Have you heard Sarko tonight??"

Yes, didn't you like the speech?
Brief, to the point, positive, breathing strength and optimism. Very expressive. And impressive !

Come on Marc, it's your president too, even if you didn't vote for him :))

[EYGH]

Valentin,

Un peu moins d'agressivité avec les dames, s'il vous plaît.

Au risque de paraître un peu vieille France, je me permets de vous rappeler les règles de la politesse à la française dans le cadre de la conversation :

"Il faut avoir le courage de ses opinions mais l'essentiel est d'affirmer ses idées, non comme une loi, mais comme une foi, et ceci avec gentillesse, sans avoir l'air de mépriser ceux qui ne les partagent pas.

Il est toujours passionnant de discuter à condition que cela soit sans acrimonie, sans éclats de voix, sans colère, sans méchanceté, sans contradiction de principe, pour se faire remarquer.

On peut être spirituel sans que ce soit au dépens des autres, se moquer de quelqu'un, mais face à face, sans le choquer ou le peiner. Chacun a ses susceptibilités, il faut essayer de les sentir et de ne pas les mettre à vif."

Une petite révision générale, y compris chez les anglophones ne ferait pas de mal, je crois.

[millier marc]

yes he's my president. but I'm shame of him ..
look the bordel to NEUILLY. ???la cour du roi sarko!!!
"Europe" the people voted no !!!!!
55% . I voted "yes" myself.but this way isn't democratic.
the first way; was voting .why not the second time.!
I'm french ,all family were french too and very proud of my country.
I'm not nationalist ; but I like my country.this president is a shame for FRANCE..SARKO la honte de la france.I'm sarkophobe 1000%.

[Pierre Bernardi]

EYGH, great lecture, but none of the Anglo-saxons will understand! Your text translates as: "blah blah blah, les français, plus forts du monde, blah blah blah, mangez du rosbif, blah blah blah, blah blah, blah, où sont les grenouilles?"

[dot king]

"EYGH, great lecture, but none of the Anglo-saxons will understand! Your text translates as: "blah blah blah, les français, plus forts du monde, blah blah blah, mangez du rosbif, blah blah blah, blah blah, blah, où sont les grenouilles?"
(Pierre Bernardi)

Pierre, have you followed the posts leading up to EYGH's post?
I think all the Anglo-saxons as you label us, will understand, especially in the context in which EYGH wrote this, even if the way of exprssing it thus wouldn't come naturally to us (I mean the "spiritual" approach not the linguistic one).
I suppose we're to take you as doing a spot of Anglo-bashing? Which half of you is hurting? Or which half of you isn't? Or have you dodged out of the way? ;0

[Valentin]

Eygh,
Soyez assurée, j'ai bien noté l'étendue de votre objectivité par rapport aux compliments qui m'ont été adressés sur l'autre fil de discussion, aussi bien sur le fond, que sur la forme.

Je note aussi la pertinence de votre petit rappel des normes de politesse, tout en retenant surtout sa phrase conclusive (et ici je rejoins Pierre Bernardi quelque part : le débat à la française ne susciterait ni de l'intérêt, ni du respect dans une ambiance anglosaxonne).

Vous ne serez donc pas étonnée d'apprendre que je maintiens (et suis prêt à prouver la justesse de) tout ce que j'ai affirmé ces derniers jours : le devoir de civilité, bien que fondamental dans toute relation humaine, n'est pas censé permettre à de telles comportements, et plus particulièrement à de telles contrevérités se propager sans entrave aucune.
A votre service.

[Daniel Strohl]

Eygh,

Tout à fait d'accord avec l'esprit de ce texte. D'où est-il extrait ?

Pierre,

Vous êtes bien pessimiste, et un peu impertinent aussi - dans tous les cas, vous êtes recalé au certif de traducteur!

Marc,

"Le sauveur de l'Europe" - s'il y avait eu un referendum, nous aurions à nouveau eu droit à un NON franc et massif. Qu'aurait-on fait après ? Le sénateur Mélenchon et Laurent Fabius auraient ressorti leur fameux plan B, façon ligne Maginot. Et cette fois-ci, tous les Européens se seraient entendus pour la contourner (la ligne Maginot) et nous ignorer.

PS : je ne vais plus vous ennuyer avec Mitterrand - vous avez raison, c'est le passé.

[EYGH]

Daniel,

Le texte est un grand classique :

"Savoir-vivre d'hier et d'aujourd'hui"

par la Baronne Staffe et Gisèle d'Assailly.

Et contrairement à Pierre Bernardi, je pense que ces règles ont plus d'avenir qu'il ne croit.

J'ai vu un reportage sur des stages organisés en France et en Suisse pour une clientèle internationale très huppée afin de redécouvrir les trésors de cette éducation.

Valentin,

L'efficacité d'un trait est décuplé lorqu'il est envoyé dans des formes parfaites. L'agressivité et la vulgarité amoindrissent tout.

Et surtout Valentin, il ne faut pas se tromper de cible.

Je crois que vous devez, galanterie oblige, des excuses à Dorothée.

[Valentin]

Eygh,
Vous devriez savoir que je chéris les formes parfaites autant que vous.
Croyez moi, j'ai bien réfléchi, et j'allais suivre vos conseils avant même de les connaître. Puis je me suis rendu compte que les choses allaient de la même façon l'été dernière, quand même l'ombre d'une incivilité de ma part ne pouvait être évoquée.
J'admire votre confiance dans les vertus de l'éducation et dans la bonté fondamentale des humains, et on regardera ensemble l'efficacité du trait aux formes parfaites face à des wrestleurs sur un ring de Las Vegas, où règles du boxe anglais sont de la pusillanimité.
Bref, la personne en cause aura mes excuses (car je connais bien mes torts) quand je saurai que ce geste n'aura pas le sort des fameuses perles.

[Daniel Strohl]

A tous les bloggers lisant le français :

Ci-dessous un lien vers un article du MONDE (ce qui devrait rassurer nos amis de gauche) transmis par l'agence REUTERS (ce qui devrait rassurer nos amis anglo-saxons) consacré à une interview de Carla Bruni:
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/depeches/0,14-0,39-34290206@7-37,0.html

[Maggie G]

EYGH,

You say you think Valentin owes Dot an apology. I really don't like getting involved in other peoples' disputes, but I have critisized Valentin often enough, so I feel it would be cowardly of me not to speak out in his defense this time.

Valentin has his faults. The main one I think, and the one that really drives Dot crazy, is that he has strong opinions on EVERYTHING -- on topics that he understands well and on topics that he knows relatively little about. I can understand Dot getting really exasperated when Valentin insists on continuing arguments where his grasp of the issues is clearly not as strong as hers (for example, the way he went on and on about "gangster" -- that was just a minor thing of course, but I don't want to get into the more controversial stuff here. He has made me extremely angry a few times too, with positions he has taken).

But I really think that Dot went too far when she complained about him welcoming someone onto the blog: Here it is:

This looks a nice sort of club with awful nice people. Can I join? I live in Paris - up the road HIMSELF the HERO of this article.
Posted by: AndyPandy | 5 Feb 2008 13:10:17

You're welcome, Andy! May you prove worthy of the honour bestowed upon you, and a proud member of the gang ! :)
(next time the drink's on you btw!)
Posted by: Valentin | 5 Feb 2008 19:49:05
__________________

I just don't see anything wrong with this!! Lot's of other people have done it in the past. Remember when Miss Marple arrived? At least five or six people welcomed her to the blog, if I remember correctly.

The other post that really annoyed Dot was this one:

Naah, we're just teasing each other, Ma'm :) After a heated exchange here, we always meet up for a drink outside. Dorothy is such timid, sensitive girl in real life, she wouldn't hurt a fly.. Lily tells the funniest jokes (which Pierre always laughs laughs his head off to), Maggie G shows her latest poetry (which Terry always makes fun of in a low voice), Rocket brings the finest petits fours (which Luffy, Eygh and myself fill our bellies with sans le moindre scrupule)... A genuine maison des Atrides, quoi :P
Posted by: Valentin | 5 Feb 2008 19:40:39
_____________________

I really don't think Valentin meant any harm by this. I myself smiled when I read it -- I thought it was cute, and quite clever. But then maybe I am just naive.

As I said, Valentin has his faults -- specifically, he is quite opinionated and sometimes arrogant (which he has admitted), and he can be too quick to label people. But I don't remember him ever being vulgar or nasty -- other people on this blog have told people to F off, but not Valentin. I have had some quite violent differences of opinion with him, but I don't remember him ever being disrespectable towards me as a person. This is why I respect him, and why I feel that he does not deserve all the criticism that has been directed at him this week. He just isn't that bad!!

[dot king]

Maggie, EYGH,
I neither expect nor want an apology from Valentin. Apologies, when they are appropriate, should come naturally, not have to be extracted or commanded.
Apologies are only worth something if they are sincere and if the after-effect is a non-repetition of the "offense".

Maggie, have you read Valentin's post in French where he says he was thinking of apologising but isn't sure that "ce geste n'aura pas le sort des fameuses perles"?
I'm sure Maggie, that you know the saying about casting pearls before swine.
So seeing that he says, even by implication, that if he apologises to me he might be casting pearls before swine, you think that's OK do you? Quite cute?
(To spell it out in case of your own argument of being naïve :) - he's implying I'm a swine , a pig, un cochon, une truie, une cochonne, or the generic "porcine" all those things are implied in what he says - like it or not Maggie - he can't resist it, c'est plus fort que lui, he's just plain nasty.)
Valentin is incapable of posting anything to or about me that doesn't at least IMPLY insult.

He has managed to get you to see him as a victim, which is what I predicted he would try to do - it's easier for him than to face up to himself.

"Dorothy is such timid, sensitive girl in real life, she wouldn't hurt a fly." (Valentin quoted by Maggie)
Is this how he introduces me to a perfect stranger - a newcomer to the blog? Why? How? He doesn't know me. He will say it's "humour", but it isn't, it's power-play. You can put up with it if you wish, I choose not to.
In any case, before this "last straw" effect there had been a lot of nastiness fom him. I'd considered leaving the blog because I felt like a target - and I think you know how that feels yourself.

I do not want any further truck with Valentin. Any apology from him would be worthless.
En ce qui me concerne, l'affaire est classée.

[dot king]

Maggie, EYGH,
I neither expect nor want an apology from Valentin. Apologies, when they are appropriate, should come naturally, not have to be extracted or commanded.
Apologies are only worth something if they are sincere and if the after-effect is a non-repetition of the "offense".

Maggie, have you read Valentin's post in French where he says he was thinking of apologising but isn't sure that "ce geste n'aura pas le sort des fameuses perles"?
I'm sure Maggie, that you know the saying about casting pearls before swine.
So seeing that he says, even by implication, that if he apologises to me he might be casting pearls before swine, you think that's OK do you? Quite cute?
(To spell it out in case of your own argument of being naïve :) - he's implying I'm a swine , a pig, un cochon, une truie, une cochonne, or the generic "porcine" all those things are implied in what he says - like it or not Maggie - he can't resist it, c'est plus fort que lui, he's just plain nasty.)
Valentin is incapable of posting anything to or about me that doesn't at least IMPLY insult.

He has managed to get you to see him as a victim, which is what I predicted he would try to do - it's easier for him than to face up to himself.

"Dorothy is such timid, sensitive girl in real life, she wouldn't hurt a fly." (Valentin quoted by Maggie)
Is this how he introduces me to a perfect stranger - a newcomer to the blog? Why? How? He doesn't know me. He will say it's "humour", but it isn't, it's power-play. You can put up with it if you wish, I choose not to.
In any case, before this "last straw" effect there had been a lot of nastiness fom him. I'd considered leaving the blog because I felt like a target - and I think you know how that feels yourself.

I do not want any further truck with Valentin. Any apology from him would be worthless.
En ce qui me concerne, l'affaire est classée.

[Valentin]

"he's implying I'm a swine , a pig, un cochon, une truie, une cochonne"

As an experimented teacher and linguiste, you certainly know that "casting pearls..." is an expression, Dorothy.
It's not to be taken in the LITERAL sense.
This figurative expression means that given the way you reacted for two amusing phrases (which I doubt anyone here took badly), and also given the way you had a go at me before, I doubted that any kind of excuses will make any impression on you. Your attack was so disproportioned and uncivil, wildly unlike anything I ever said or implied before, that any apology would be like being nice to a lion (there, a noble animal, for once :) ) : it won't mean anything to him, and he'll have a go at you again anyway, sooner or later.

Your choice to interpret that expression in the literal sense shows once again how you try to put me in the worst possible light.

Which comforts me in my decision, even if I admit my own faults (being unacceptably aggressive entre autres).

[Maggie G]

Hi Dot,

When Valentin talked about casting pearls before swine, I don't think he was implying that you are a pig, I think he was saying that his apology would probably not be appreciated.

At least that was the way I interpreted it.

"Bref, la personne en cause aura mes excuses (car je connais bien mes torts) quand je saurai que ce geste n'aura pas le sort des fameuses perles."

I don't want to get into a feud with you over Valentin, so I won't insist. But I'll just say one final time, I really don't think he's QUITE as bad as you take him to be.
I'm sure, if you really tried, you could find ONE nice thing about him.

(That's what I said to Terry once, about socialism, and he didn't take it kindly either!)

[Terry]

I just thought I'd pile on. Did you know that Valentin frequents Keller's in Paris?

I dont know what the hubbub's about and I dont feel like catching up. I will say that Valentin's opinions, when they agree with mine, are well thought out. I don't think he really is interested in insulting anyone. Sometimes, I think that's one of his faults.

BTW: EYGH is here now? Did we just trade one EuroTrib red for another? Well, at least there's a little less sophistry now.

[dot king]

"Your choice to interpret that expression in the literal sense shows once again how you try to put me in the worst possible light."

Valentin, you do it very well without any help from me.
I showed your post to an off-blog friend today who gasped at what you'd written. Perhaps YOUR inexperience with the English language is what's lacking.
No use trying to pretend you choose your words "innocently".

Please just don't address ant comments to me again. Thank you.
You won't get any further response and the more you snipe the worse you'll make the light people see you in.

[dot king]

"When Valentin talked about casting pearls before swine, I don't think he was implying that you are a pig, I think he was saying that his apology would probably not be appreciated."

Ok, soit. So he was saying then what an ungracious person I am. And he couched it in terms of which he KNEW the implications. Aren't you the one who admires the way he's mastered the English language? Haven't you said you respect him for his achievements?

He insults you too Maggie IMO, but that's none of my business, you tolerate what you can.
When Valentin posts, he has carefully weighed what he's saying.

And if you read him PROPERLY as if he were a grown man and not a little boy who doesn't really mean any harm, then you just might get a different impression.
But it's OK, whatever, he needs all the friends he can find.

[dot king]

"I'm sure, if you really tried, you could find ONE nice thing about him."

Maggie, I don't even want to waste my time trying.

[Dominique]

Daniel Strohl,

Carla Bruni says about "nouvel observateur" : ""Si ce genre de sites avaient existé pendant la guerre, qu'en aurait-il été des dénonciations de juifs?"

Is that really being serious? That is typically a leftist argument using french guilt about collaboration (iand i am a leftist!). Unfortunatly for her, i am not sur that nouvel obs's journalist such as Jean Daniel or Claude Askolovitch can be accused of anything in such a way.

Her very first interview is already a failure. She is still talking about herself, her husband, her child, her self, her true self, her job, her love, his work, his life, their wedding, their walks in the park of Versailles, her song; her writtings, her this, her that, them, him, her......

Enough!

[Rocket]

Dominique

It appears that Carla's first interview a déjà semé la merde. That's what we call a good start in English.

PS - You actually read it! I hope you got it for free.

[Daniel Strohl]

Dot,

"I think he was saying that his apology would probably not be appreciated.

At least that was the way I interpreted it" (Maggie).

Me too, Dot. It was not meant as an insult.

I have got a very useful, interesting and knowledgeable book (888 pages!) called "Dictionnaire des expressions et locutions", par Alain Rey et Sophie Chantreau - Les Usuels - Dictionnaires Le Robert 27 rue de la Glacière 75013 Paris (Edition 1994).

Hereafter two expressions with "perles" (page 605):
- "enfiler des perles" : s'occuper à des niaiseries. S'utilise surtout dans des phrases comme "on n'est pas là pour enfiler des perles".
- "des perles aux pourceaux" (aux cochons) ... exprime l'idée d'une qualité perdue, de choses précieuses qui ne seront pas appréciées etc.

I have got the full series of "Les Usuels" : 11 books ! Very interesting indeed. Excellent typography. I don't know if they are still edited.

The problem is that one becomes lazy - it is faster to search with Google or Yahoo than to find the right book, find the right glasses to read it (for me, not the same as for the PC!), and then search in the book. Mais le jeu en vaut la chandelle !

Terry,

"Did you know that Valentin frequents Keller's in Paris?"

You are still an "affreux Jojo", Terry - no improvement whatsoever!

I prefer the German meaning of Keller (cellar) : Weinkeller, Bierkeller - self explaining, I guess.

[Valentin]

Oh and one REALLY LAST thing:

"And if you read him PROPERLY as if he were a grown man and not a little boy who doesn't really mean any harm"

LOL this is sooo silly (oops! sorrrry :D ) You sound like you really lived in France for too long: this is the French custom of applying a "grille de lecture", or rules to interpret and read between the lines. Afraid that they might be outsmarted, many French people try to get to the REAL meaning someone has hidden in an apparently innocent text. To me this is hair-splitting and passing judgement.
But I won't deny I can have childish reactions sometimes - like most men, I'd say :D

[Daniel Strohl]

Dominique,

But however Jean Daniel made it clear that he would not have authorized the SMS to be on their site on the first place.

Le Nouvel Obs was up to now not Le Canard Enchaîné (Daniel S. speaking, not Jean Daniel) or their rightist counterpart(s), which I don't read either. Le journaliste qui a mis ce SMS (vrai ou fabriqué) sur le site du Nouvel Obs mérite un coup de pied au cul! Surtout qu'il me semble que ce n'était quand même pas un balayeur irresponsable et illettré.

"She is still talking about herself, her husband, her child, her self, her true self, her job, her love, his work, his life, their wedding, their walks in the park of Versailles, her song; her writtings, her this, her that, them, him, her......"

Dominique, on n'est pas obligé de lire l'interview. Cependant, il ne faut pas oublier qu'ils (la presse) nous ont bassiné pendant des semaines pour ne pas dire des mois avec des attaques sous la ceinture de Sarkozy, de sa première femme, puis de la seconde (et maintenant - à nouveau - du fils). En ce qui me concerne, j'en avais vraiment ras le bol, et je ne dois pas être le seul.

Dans ces conditions, on peut parfaitement admettre que L'Express publie une interview de Madame Sarkozy. On peut assimiler ça à un droit de réponse.

Par ailleurs, pour ma part, je trouve la réaction violente de Labro et de son collègue - dont je n'ai pas retenu le nom - tout à fait déplacée. Quand on se sent morveux, on se mouche. Le Nouvel Obs ne sort pas grandi de cette affaire - et je ne suis même pas sûr que cela fera grimper les ventes, ce qui était clairement le but de la publication du SMS.

[Lily]

“And precious the tear as that rain from the sky
which turns into pearls as it falls in the sea.”

(Thomas Moore)

Beautiful, isn’t it?

Pearls could as tears of sorrow lie at the bottom of the ocean.

What a pity would it be to throw pearls away!

Can lack of taste and manners ever find harmony with the timeless beauty of pearls?

[dot king]

"des perles aux pourceaux" (aux cochons) ... exprime l'idée d'une qualité perdue, de choses précieuses qui ne seront pas appréciées etc. "
So Valentin's apology is something precious, not to be cast before swine? Here we go again -

Valentin one last time,I'm sick of arguing with you. It's tiresome, a waste of energy, but as usual, like a dog with a rabbit (or a swine with a pearl if you prefer) you can't let go, can you. until you've got everyone on your side and you fel vindicated. No amount of tryingto stop the argument has any effect on you, does it?
Think:
When someone normal does or says something that merits (in their own opinion) an apology, they usually don't wonder whether their apology will be rejected or not, they just go ahead and apologise.
The other person's reaction doesn't enter into the equation. Full stop.
Your prolonged consideration of whether yours would've been "pearls cast before swine" shows the degree of manipulation you are prepared to go to score points.
You purposely use expressions that can be interpreted in two or more ways, that way you cover your back, whichever way one takes it you can say you meant the opposite.
Facile Trop facile.
You put a smiley after something outrageous, someone protests, and lo! they have no sense of humour.

You're the ruler of the blog, possibly France, tomorrow the world.
Just take it, whatever you want, you win, just get off my case once and for all.

Point n'est besoin d'élever la voix quand on a raison.

Proverbe Chinois

[dot king]

""I think he was saying that his apology would probably not be appreciated.

At least that was the way I interpreted it" (Maggie).

Me too, Dot. It was not meant as an insult. "
(Daniel)
Why was he even considering the fate of his apology? The very fact that he has to think of whether it would be "pearls cast before swine" and therefore not worth making, is added insult to the insult he was thinking of apologising for.

"As an experimented teacher and linguiste, you certainly know that "casting pearls..." is an expression, Dorothy. " (Valentin)

Yes, an as EXPERIENCED teacher i do know what an expression is, but why choose THAT one? As an EXPERIENCED teacher I teach people to express themselves clearly and to read what's there. You choose an expression just as you make any choice of words to have the desired effect. You do it particularly dishonestly.

MAGGIE, LILY, EYGH: this is the post that made me so angry - it was posted by your Valentin chéri, long after I'd stopped posting anything to him. It was ABOUT me TO Daniel. It was uncalled for, I wasn't bothering him. Here it is:

"if I remember well, you have already used the word "stage" regarding Sarkozy" (Daniel to me quoted by valentin)

LOL Daniel, si je peux me permettre, vous perdez votre temps : y'en a qui aiment jouer les innocents dès que quelqu'un semble avoir raison à leur encontre. Been there. Bof." (Valentin to Daniel about me)
This is cute? This is grauitous.

Next on another thread, I saw a message he'd posted to someone called Barrie, to whom he'd said to the effect of "if you're American, then this, if you're British then that" either way he was saying something offensive.
That, strangely, was the last straw in questioin, his psychoanalytical presentation of other blog members was just another in the series of gratuitous Valentin sniper's fire.

That's how all this started. I know that you some women on the blog have a soft spot for Valentin, you allow him to insult or mock you with, if not impunity straight away, then forgiveness in the end.
I'm no saint.
Once certain limits have been crossed with me, there is no turning back, so everyone can stop trying to tell me that Valentin didn't mean it, that they like and respect him.
Valentin has gone too far with me and there's no turning back.

[Rocket]

Valentin

"this is the French custom of applying a "grille de lecture", or rules to interpret and read between the lines. Afraid that they might be outsmarted, many French people try to get to the REAL meaning someone has hidden in an apparently innocent text."

So what is REAL meaning?

This is a very interesting aspect of French culture. It seems that no matter what you say someone is always trying to read something else into what you are saying to satisfy their own agenda. Now, where does this come from? I believe it is in the education and interaction with other people in the formative years.

People will say n'importe quoi" to put you off (rather than tell you directly)(until they get fed up and then they will tell you directly which often leaves people perplexed as to why they didn't do so beforehand). In the end you end up not believing anything anyone says.

Some examples I have seen

Man follows nice looking girl down the street. Where she stops he stops, but several meters behind. After about 15 minutes of this subterfuge, woman turns to man and says "Que veut tu"?

Man - "Vous vous trompez, je n'ai rien fait."

I knew a French girl who went to Miami several years back. On the beach an American comes up to her and introduces himself. They talk for a few minutes. She told me she thought he was cute. He then says to her that he has a couple of hours and if she'd like to make love they could get a hotel nearby. She doesn't know what to say and refuses. The guy moves on. She gets back to France and tells her story regretting she didn't sleep with him. (There was a song like that in France a few years back)

Many years ago when I smoked, I went into an office in a kind of "passage" commercial on the Champs Elysées. Perfectly clean floors and incredibly polished. Now way I was going to throw my cigarette butt on the floor. So I go into a an office which opened into the passage and ask the girls there if I could crush my ciggie in their ashtry. Suspicious looks all over the place. I crush the ciggie and am out of there. Before I get through the door, one of the girls asks me. Is that all you wanted? Yes says I. Well monsieur you are one exceptional individual blah blah blah. Great! but I gotta go I reply.

I hadn't really thought of using an ashtray as an "outil de drague".

I had to have a friend of mine explain what was going on.

As Pagnol said

Les méditerranées parlent beaucoup pour cacher ce qu'ils ont a dire"

An interesting subject Valentine but for us Anglos it is still difficult to integrate this mentality.

That's why I was always warned to say as little as possible to fonctionnaires.

So Valentin,

In the interest of "rapprochement" of our two cultures and for the "franc parler" I'll ask you one question that I'm sure the other bloggers would like to know.

Do you spit or swallow? hi hi hi

"Valentin has gone too far with me and there's no turning back."

Dot,

you either ignore him - or you marry him.

There seems to be no other way.

[dot king]

"you either ignore him - or you marry him."

anon - I think he's much more your type than mine