Is Colonel Gaddafi a Frenchman?

If Colonel Gaddafi was so eager to linger in Paris when he came last December, it was perhaps because the Libyan leader is half French. His father was an air force pilot from Corsica. That's him in the picture on the left. 

This extraordinary claim has surfaced over the past few days after a report by Bakchich, a French investigative news site. They looked into a legend which has long circulated in Vezzani, a village of 600 people in eastern Corsica. According to this, a Vezzani gendarme's son called Albert Preziosi was stationed in the Libyan desert with the Free French air force in 1941-42. He is said to have had an affair with a local woman at about the time that young Muammar would have been conceived.

Preziosi was killed when his aeroplane was shot down over Russia in 1943. As a member of the famous Normandy-Niemen squadron, he has been celebrated as a hero in his home village ever since. An air force base near the town of Solenzara, is named after him. Not a shred of evidence exists to stand up the Gaddafi legend but the physical resemblance is so strong that it has persisted.

Officially, the father of the Supreme Guide of the Revolution was Abu Meniar Al Gaddafi, a Bedouin goat breeder in the region of Syrte. His mother, a local tribeswoman, was named Aisha. The Italian occupation and the war destroyed all records of the couple, according the French investigators.

Preziosi is remembered by surviving comrades as a charmer. According to some, he talked about having a child in Libya. Pierre Lorillon, a Major who joined the squadron in Russia after Preziosi's death told Bakchich that his wartime comrades had no doubt about Gaddafi's paternity. "We all knew that Albert had had a girlfriend from the 'big Libyan tent', in other words a noble woman from the high bourgeoisie...We only knew that he had a child with this woman and that an uncle had taken care of her and sent her to study abroad".

Members of Preziosi's family were reluctant to talk or said they knew nothing about a child, according to the site and French newspapers which picked up the story this weekend. Jacques-Antoine Preziosi, a nephew who is a Marseille lawyer, said that the family had nothing to confirm the legend and had never thought of investigating it.

Jean-Pierre Pagni, the Mayor of Vezzani, told le Journal du Dimanche that Preziosi was the village hero. "We have no proof of this paternal link but nothing contradicts it either," he said. 

Bakchich dug up an exchange of letters between senior officers which showed that the air force History Service tried to investigate the story in 1999. A general concluded that the paternity was not possible because the Preziosi was based 600 kilometres away from Gaddafi's reported birth place. The news site quotes other squadron pilots who contradict this.

Perhaps someone will end the mystery with a DNA check. In the meantime, some in Corsica are remembering that Gaddafi gave strong support to FNLC separatist guerrillas there in the 1970s. That is hardly evidence of filial attachment, since the colonel was handing out weapons and training to just about every terrorist outfit in those days.

KADHAFI : l?enquête corse

[Vezzani below]

   

 

Comments

[millier marc]

maybe sarko is his half brother.
oh my god!!

who 's who????

[rocket]

I love it. One of the biggest terrorists and these "ploucs" from Corsica are ready to greet him.

How many French did he kill in the UTA explosion. Right. Just as long as he is Corsican. Then he is ok!

PS - The father is nicer looking than the "son"

[Christine]

Human history is full of records about hidden or rumored paternities... Funny to see how a structural narrative pops up again once in a while.
By the way, Charles, I watched you on Canal +, saying regarding the "children of the Shoah" debate that France is not reconciled yet with its past. It was true 15 years ago. But I really don't think the assertion still holds. And replacing history with pure emotional experience is a strange idea.

[Jorg Andersen]

The resemblance is certainly extraordinary. Surely some secret service must have checked all this long ago. At least since DNA testing was invented. Khadafi was public enemy number one back in the 1970s and 1980s when he was blowing up airplanes and Reagan sent the air force to bomb him and kill his daughter.

[Dominique]

Christine,

Agree with you. What does it take to reconcile with the past? What does it actually mean? We were more reconciled with the past 20 year ago than now. That does not make sense.

What we are experiencing nowadays is not "reconciliation" with the past, but dolorism at his best : implore, whine, cry, and transform victims into real heroes.

Same philosophy with Mrs Humbert, with children victims, with anyone who can go on television and complain about anything. That's exactly why Sarko wants so much Religious comeback : dolorist business! suffer, pray and hope is what people should do! but please don't ask for more hapiness on earth! let us go on our Bolloré's yachts!

Sarko is doing the very exact opposite of what he said during the campaign : he tries to make us feel guilty for what happened in the 40's. Why not the vendéens? the Palatinate? the Huguenots?

I want to to recall some truth : neither me (i wasn't born), nor my parents or my grand parents did kill neither denounced any jew. France declared war at Germany and lost. Should France feel guilty about it? Maybe France should'nt have declared war to Germany in 1939 and let it go with Poland. We wouldn't have to weight the holocaust burden and could say "it was all Grmany's!". Let us remind that 75% of the french jews did survive the Holocaust, unlike in other coutries in Europe.

I know that is not politically correct nowadays, but Sarko is now clearly pissing us of.

[dot king]

Hmm, the Sarko-Corsica-Gaddafi Connection - there are a whole series of "coincidences" concerning Corsica which bear closer examination - this, however unlikely, only adds fuel to the fire IMO.
BTW I don't think there is a strong physical resemblance beween "father" and "son", but the very fact of this emerging at this point in time is interesting indeed.

[concedo nulli]

Dominique, Are you French? Your reasoning seems so warped to me. I was born in 1944 from parents in the Resistance and unfortunately I was never asked to confront the fact that jews were denounced by French people during the war. I did not worry enough about it because my own mother was denounced to the Gestapo and I was born when she was "en clandestinité". I believed I knew enough about the war. I belong to a generation who heard first-hand accounts of those times. But as you know it is best when History is told by those who were not actors -or victims. The idea is to make the people of this country more civilized, more sensitive to the past, more curious of others, more accepting. Children aged 10 are receptive and resilient . If little Tadashi or little Mohamed is French, the deportation of jewish children during the war and their death will be part of the history of his country just like the death of Louis XVII at the hands of the commissaires du peuple of which I must have read when I was ten years old; It did not give me nightmares, but it certainly warned me against the cruelty of human beings.

[Maggie G]

Dominique,

You say that Sarkozy is "trying to make us feel guilty for what happened in the 40s".

I don't agree. The holocaust is remembered in Canada too. Guilt has nothing to do with it. It's just something that everybody should know about, whether their country was "guilty" or not.

We have to know that these things can happen. We have to know that freedom, democracy, and civilization can never be guaranteed -- that each new generation has to be taught to appreciate them and safeguard them.

We can never take our freedom for granted -- it has to be won, over and over again.

[Daniel Strohl]

Dominique,

"but dolorism at his best" -

Dominique, you can't accuse Sarkozy to have invented dolorism! C'est une vieille ficelle de gauche comme de droite - en général plutôt de gauche d'ailleurs; if we believe some propagandistes de gauche - not you, of course - we are still in the age of Germinal, avec un quarteron de capitalistes debout sur la dunette de leurs yachts, le sabre d'abordage entre les dents et le pistolet armé à la ceinture - LOL!

More seriously : is it so difficult for you to imagine or to believe that Sarkozy may be sincere ? He has Jewish blood.

I like what CONCEDO NULLI wrote about the matter; however, I am myself somewhat uneasy with the whole idea.

But I am pretty sure that if the same idea had been launched by a newly elected président(e) de gauche, many media would have been enthusiastic (this is of course not true for Dominique, but he is not a media either ...).

[Charles B]

Since we have veered onto Sarkozy and the Holocaust, here's the link to my story in the newspaper http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3379071.ece

"We can never take our freedom for granted -- it has to be won, over and over again"

Wonderfully said.

[Dominique]

Daniel Strohl,

"More seriously : is it so difficult for you to imagine or to believe that Sarkozy may be sincere ? He has Jewish blood. "

I am sorry, but this way of thinking does not make sens to me : what do you call "jewish blood"? There is nothing like that, this is a typical racist classification made by those who can't accept free choice made by the individual once adult.

Regarding rememberance of the holocaust, this is already done officially in France, it is taught in school, and we also have a national day of rememberance (January 27) for the Shoah. Below is a very good site about what can be done at school :

http://www.memorialdelashoah.org/

More, as a teacher in Paris, i have had the opportunity to witness some temoignages (witnessing?..) from survivors of the camps explaining to the children that they had been taken while they were pupils of the very school they were in! These temoignages are breathtaking and all children face these old people with the idea that they actualy were in the very same classrooms. Thes shoah survivors also come with pictures of their own classes in the 40's in the very same building. That is very good and identification is complete.

Nothing more is needed. We need no official mass! Are we going to do even more by forcing the children to take care of a "dead child"?

Simone Weil is a woman i admire a lot. Her life is an exemple for all, and she said it all : she was horrified by the idea. Not one need to weight the memory of her sister! She can do it herself.

The specificity of the holocaust is that it was a mass murder and an industrial phenomenum. It is not to be approached as if it was only individual dramas. It was a global drama. You can find plenty of children who did suffer as much as the jewish children that were sent to Auswitch. That does not make the Shoah less specific. You could even write that approaching the Shoah through individual stories will destroy it's specificity as an universal event.

We are already doing a lot at school about it, maybe too much already. We should not add more, or it will be conterproductive. As Simone Weil said, teachers already make a great job about it.

Shoah survivors are dying, and they will be gone soon. Memory of the holocaust should survive through facts and history, not through emotions, neither should it be used by perverse polititians because they suddently can't fullfill their promesses.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

France will never recover from the plain and simple fact that it was French policemen who rounded up and helped to deport French Jewish families, as well as those who had fled Nazi Germany seeking refuge in the country of Liberte Egalite Fraternite, and the rafle of the Vel d'Hiv children which had not been requested by the Occupying Germans. The operative word is French, and as Latins one must ask oneself : would Italian or Spanish policemen have done the same thing?
General de Gaulle said the Resistance saved the honour of France, but he was deeply ashamed of the collaboration that had taken place and did his best, as a politician to hush it all up after 1945.

[Ros]

"that it was French policemen who rounded up and helped to deport French Jewish families," - this was only very briefly mentioned on a good documentary concerning Petain's trial last night on the new TV channel "Vivolta"- perhaps because the children of the said gendarmes would have been offended?
It certainly wasn't their fault ...

[dot king]

It seems to be here that the "children in CM2 must adopt the memory of a deported Jewish child" topic is being discussed, so here goes:

There is a wealth of difference in teaching the Shoah collectively as part of the history of France, and expecting an individual child to take on, keep alive the memory of, and identify with, a child dead in the most horrific and unjust circumstances.

Setting aside the political implications of this "idea" being made public at the CRIJF dinner and the general "effet d'annonce", it should be considered, from whatever angle, teacher, parent, bystander, just what is level of the psychological maturity of a 10-year-old child and can s/he cope with the knowledge.

A child of this age who packs a suitcase and goes somewhere on a train with his parents is going on holiday. That is the association in his/her mind. S/he isn't going in fear, isn't going to a Hell that we, even as adults, can hardly imagine, we who have learned about it. Unless like Simone Weil and other survivors of the Holocaust, we have lived through it. Mme Weil knows from experience that the horror is too great for a child, "grandmother" (as someone says elsewhere) or not. We must respect her for firm view on this.

A child of the age of CM2 (Dominique will correct me if I'm wrong - most of my experience is 11+) has not yet completed his ability to decentre.
S/he is just beginning to take on board the idea that the things one does and says can have an effect on The Other. And to have clearer ideas of good and bad, right and wrong, justice and injustice.
The process of decentring happens over a period of years and the length of time needed varies with the child.
In a 10-year-old's general view of the world, of which he is still largely at the centre, people die if they're ill, or old, or by accident.

Stories, for children of this age - and older still, have happy endings. Good triumphs over evil.
This is clearly not the case for a deported Jewih child. Something is wrong with the story. Evil triumphs over good, that's not right - if you're 10 years old.

Illustration with a couple of 11-year-olds:- Story, with a gloomy setting, railway cutting, mouth of a tunnel, a red warning light like an evil eye or the fire of hell, a voice crying out a warning. At the end of the story which is premonitory, the main protagonist is killed.
Exercise: imagine the man could have spoken to the person crying out the warning, what might have happened? Write the conversation they would have had.
Result?
Character taken out of the dark, scary environment into the light and towards escape. Conversation overlooked in the urgency of rescue.
In one, the mysterious figure with the warning voice, whom we know to be a man, becomes a lovely and kind (and rich) young woman and they marry and live happily ever after.
In discussion with the children after reading their versions, each was emphatic, they didn't want the man to die, they wanted to save him, as said the girl "I just wanted to get him out of danger."

If you lay on to each child in CM2, the responsibility of a child whose fate they know in advance and whom they are powerless to save, then you risk interfering with their normal psychological development, by giving them a sense of helplessness in a situation in which they could feel personally responsible.
The whole idea of the extermination of a whole race of human beings is based in the vilest of absurdities, and will not fit into any of a 10-year-old child's concepts of right/wrong, good/bad, just/unjust.
The burden is inappropriate, too heavy, too soon.
There's time for too-harsh realities later, when psychologically they can cope with them. Leave them their childhood.

[Chris]

The Sarko-Shoahchild memorial fuss is complex and not easily parsed. But if France really wants to sensitize its youth to the downtrodden and forgotten, why not start with the living victims of racism, colonialism, and capitalist exploitation? The Education Ministry could "twin" French school kids with poor African kids in former French colonies, Aids orphans, or even Muslim kids in suburbs. These disenfranchised people are not cute, mute, Schindler List-type ghosts, they are living beings in need of immediate understanding, compassion, and help.

[Dominique]

Dot King, well said!

Chris, twining "french school kids with muslim kids of the suburbs"? Did you notice how colonial your sentence was? Those "muslim" kids of yours are as french as those you call "french kids".

For the rest, a book about building identities by transforming victims into heroes :

La souffrance comme identité
Esther Benbassa
Essai (broché). Paru en 03/2007

Eventhough i dont always share Benbassa's views (especially about school), she pointed interesting views about heralding suffering as an identity.

[Jeff Hayas]

Wake up, folks. French/German, Israeli/Arab, Serb/Albanian -- it matters not.
This is all like football gone mad. There is not one culture on Earth whose history does not cloak a dark secret cruelty or genocide. On our last day, each one of us will answer to The Creator for our stupid acts of anger gone awry.
As for Gaddafi and Preziosi, the photos say it plain: the person you hate may well be your long lost brother.
Embrace and forgive your own insanity while there is still time -- in War, the best killer gleans the booby prize.

[Guhar]

...no he´s a henchman!

[Valentin]

Finally, finally la Droite comes with a few humanist ideas, and there they go, all the Gauche raised as one against them! Weird days we're living :)

[Lily]

"Finally, finally la Droite comes with a few humanist ideas, and there they go, all the Gauche raised as one against them! Weird days we're living :)"

Valentin,

the criticism involves

A) Sarko's method of implementing his personal idea.

B) The idea - which is neither humanistic nor humanitarian.

It is interesting to read reader reactions on Charles' main article that are generally more positive.

I agree with both Dot's and Dominique's view. Those who approve of Sarkozy's initiative approve of the general effort to teach history (the Shoah) to a new generation. This is getting done already.

The history edcuation that I have seen at the French "Ecole Primaire" so far, has been EXCELLENT.

Valentin,

It depends on your definition of the word "humanism".

[JL Ronish]

He does LOOK French but has anybody smelled his breath to be sure?

[Daniel Strohl]

Dominique,

"There is nothing like that, this is a typical racist classification made by those who can't accept free choice made by the individual once adult”.

Dominique - ??? What has this choice to do with the fact that somebody has parents or grand'parents with Jewish, Alsatian, Breton, Auvergnat or whatever blood or to say it differently, if you don’t like the word blood, is of Jewish, Alsatian etc. descent: ? If I mention the fact that your grand'parents were Auvergnats (you said this once if I am not wrong), does this imply that I am racist "anti-auvergnat"?? May be yes, if I say that you are "très économe" even if it is not true - LOL!

However, Dominique, the core of your post is very interesting. I was not really aware of what was already and really happening in French schools regarding the shoah.

PS: I heard yesterday and this morning also that Hollande had first said that he did agree with Sarkozy's idea. This of course is/was his good right as a human being, even if he is one of the bosses of the opposition. Now he asks the président to withdraw his project! Does this mean that Hollande's philosophical or ethical ideas are geared to the results of the polls and to the internet buzz? - LOL!

[Valentin]

After a few moments of deroute and dégringolade :) the French Left united against Sarko, as usual - as the Right did in his support, again as usual. What we hear in the media now are no longer free-minded opinions, but political positions - hence of little practical value.

I'm sure my use of the word "humanism" is quite clear. It's opposed to "capitalism". It's THAT THING the Right is NOT supposed to do, because it's the monopole de gauche. The gauche is humanist. It's for the Humans. It defends the Human being, in all its complexity, from naissance (I almost said conception, luckily I stopped on time! :) ) to the end of it. Humanism is open minded, cares for human rights, for richness of spirit (awful expression, my English and French mix into a literally gauche tongue these days..), humanism is for the feelings, for the defence of the poor and the oppressed, for the memory of the victims - OUCH! The bad word. Sorry!

Just one question. Now that the Left doesn't want Guy Moquet (cheap whining), nor shoah sentimental exploitation, I am wondering what's gonna be next: now that Sarko "regularizes" (gives visas) to the african waiters in the centre of Paris, will the Gauche ask for expulsion of these awful lawless people? :)

[Dominique]

D.Strohl,

Regarding blood, let me remind you that we are what we want to be, not what we are told we are.

Jews in Germany in the 30's were told by the nazis they were jewish because of their relatives. I remind you that plenty of people went to the camps being told they were jewish eventhough they did not know nor care until then. The nazis made this "blood" classification : the one with one jewish grand parent was jewish! That is clearly a racist view, forcing religious, ethnic, whatever, identity.

I am Auvergnat because i said so, no because the administration told me i was. That clearly makes the difference. And it is not linked to any genetics or "blood". Please note that Fadela Amara (french minister of algerian descend) claims that she is an auvergnate!

Individual choice is the key. More, let me remind you that we leave in a period of time were people can change their name, gender, and they will probably soon be able to change their skin color. They call it "true self". So, telling anyone he is something because his parents are is just an obsolet point of view. Unfortunatly, this is more and more a common point of view sending us back to the dark ages.

[Valentin]

Lily, more precisely, I can agree with many things, but not with the horror stories about putting the "shoah death weight" on these poor children and their frail shoulders.

As long as the way in which this "keeping the memory alive" will be done has not been explained, it's pointless to extrapolate, imagine all horrible sort of stuff and throw it back at Sarko (whose shoulders are hopefully ready for the weight of xxxx (many demeaning nouns decorated by no more beautiful adjectives which I'd rather taire come to mind - unless someone's esthetical system, like Umberto Eco's, happens to value la beauté du laid, in which case I'll be happy to send him the text in full by private mail).

Bref: we're "debating" without knowing HOW it's gonnna happen.

[rocket]

It would be nice if Sarkozy would think things through before acting on pure emotion. That is not the way a family should be run or a government.

"Is it necessary to do one by one, for each pupil? Perhaps we could find other solutions, such as choosing one victim per class," Darcos said on RTL radio.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/955435.html

[rocket]

Charles

Maybe a post about Villiers le Bel

http://www.ambafrance-us.org/atoz/defense.asp

"Withmore than 1000 French troops on the ground and roughly 1500 airmen and sailors, France is actively involved in Afghanistan and is one of the major partners of the United States in that country."

They put nearly as many resources on the ground in Villiers chasing down suburban kids and knocking down doors as they have in Afghanistan and those resources were at higher risk in Villiers

http://tinyurl.com/2rryao

I wouldn't ever again send one more American troop in harms way in Europe if the situation ever deems it necessary and I'm not hitting on the French but on all the European countries except Britain and the Netherlands.

[THE ANTI-BASHING GUERRILLA]

"They put nearly as many resources on the ground in Villiers chasing down suburban kids and knocking down doors as they have in Afghanistan"

It looks as if for the poster above deploying a regiment in Afghanistan is as easy and cheap as moving police around Paris region, and the cost and combat value of a policeman equals that of a marine.
Or is it that French-bashing can get addictive; in that case we seriously advise Rocket the following treatment: ten times a day, during a month, copy this sentence: I love the French and I'm happy in France.

[azloon]

[But if France really wants to sensitize its youth to the downtrodden and forgotten, why not start with the living victims of racism, colonialism, and capitalist exploitation? The Education Ministry could "twin" French school kids with poor African kids in former French colonies, Aids orphans, or even Muslim kids in suburbs. These disenfranchised people are not cute, mute, Schindler List-type ghosts, they are living beings in need of immediate understanding, compassion, and help.] Chris

ouch!!

keep coming back !

[azloon]

[Wake up, folks. French/German, Israeli/Arab, Serb/Albanian -- it matters not.
This is all like football gone mad. There is not one culture on Earth whose history does not cloak a dark secret cruelty or genocide. On our last day, each one of us will answer to The Creator for our stupid acts of anger gone awry........
Embrace and forgive your own insanity while there is still time -- in War, the best killer gleans the booby prize.] Jeff Hayas

i thought this needed to be posted again. God have mercy on us all.

[qwerty]

Well thanks, Rocket! I happen to be Dutch! I never really figured out Holland's attraction to certain other nationalities (Americans, Brits, Israelis...). They (sorry - we) must have qualities I haven't yet understood. Or maybe they're (sorry - we're) just less controversial.

[rocket]

In today's Libé it appears that there is some backtracking going on and the Ministers are cleaning up the mess that the President has made.

My excuses to non French readers

http://www.liberation.fr/actualite/societe/310867.FR.php

Firstly from the article

"Xavier Darcos organise la retraite."

Thank God it wasn't an anglo saxon newspaper who employed this word "retraite" They would have been burned alive by those I'll call "les hypersensibles"

Secondly from the article

«Ce qui est critiqué, c’est la complexité de l’idée d’une adoption d’un enfant par un enfant, mais personne ne critique le principe qu’il faille connaître la Shoah», a-t-il souligné.

I don't think in France apart a sprinkling of far righters anyone would contest the memory of the Shoah. It's the "forme" which was called into question not the "fond"

As we approach the elections the best advise that I could give (for what it is worth)to the President would be to measure your words before reacting.

We are all aware of "la pouvoir d'achat" and then the backtracking. "Que voulez- vous que je fasse, les caisses sont vide". Or "Il faut chercher le point de croissance". Well it's difficult to find a needle in a haystack.

Least we forget. "On ira cherher Ingrid Betancourt"

Politics has to be undertaken by serious reflexion, not 10 second sound bites.

Let's hope 2008 will be full of "sérénité" and "réflexion" and well thought out reform.

[rocket]

QWERTY

Didn't know you were Dutch. Must be the reason for your good English (wink) I am quite interested in what is going on with the Dutch now concerning the whole immigration policy. The Dutch were always known to be tolerant people. Overly tolerant. When I lived in Israel,(many years ago) there were tons of Dutch working on the Kibbutz who were not Jewish and quite a few who married Israelis or wanted to marry Israelis.

If you have time, could you give me some of your impressions of this change of attitude. (if change there is) Was it the Van Gogh murder or just a pent up feeling that is coming out.

Anyway, My favorite Painter. Van Gogh. I'll never tire or visiting the Van Gogh museum. and love those small towns and canals.

[rocket]

Anti Bashing Guerilla

Ok Ok! You win! but I just did one of these the other day for Lily and my hand is getting really tired writing down each letter before I type each word on the computer.

But here goes

I love to French and I'm happy in France.
I love to French and I'm happy in France.
I love to French and I'm happy in France.
I love to French and I'm happy in France.
I love to French and I'm happy in France.
I love to French and I'm happy in France.
I love to French and I'm happy in France.
I love to French and I'm happy in France.
I love to French and I'm happy in France.
I love to French and I'm happy in France.

Now please other bloggers, don't abuse my schoolboy cooperation.

[Lily]

"we're "debating" without knowing HOW it's gonnna happen."

Valentin,

Criticism no. 1 is about the fact THAT it is going to happen without having been debated before.

Criticism no. 2 is about the idea itself, no matter HOW you put the adoption of a dead Jewish child into practice.

The HOW will not change the basic idea.

And, again, French schools do already cover this topic.

[Maggie G]

Rocket,

Is it by accident or on purpose that you write "I love TO French" rather than "I love THE French"?

Just wondering what the verb "to French" means, but then I probably don't want to know.

[Valentin]

Lily,
I see the whole thing as launching a debate, in pure Sarko style. He didn't impose anything, he threw the thing in the public arena TO BE DEBATED justement, frankly and without prejudice.

D'ailleurs I have a hard time seeing what's wrong with little Mathieu learning about little Benjamin: he was 9 year-old in 1943, he lived in Auvergne, he was a good student, a fine boy, he liked to paint, he was kidnapped one april morning, given up to the Germans, and ended his life in a place called Chelmno in Poland. We don't need to enter any kind of morbid details, but make it just like for a deceased grandmother. That never posed any "burden" on anybody, why would little Benjamin?

[Nadezda]

Dear friends
Give me chance to reach Russian Presidents.

Уважаемый Владимир Владимирович,
уважаемый Дмитрий Анатольевич,
нужно отринуть мещанскую догму: уж кто как «устроился». Обновите свое восприятие мира.
Вы часто говорите о стране. И я позволю себе пафос. Стране нужны проекты-бренды в интернет-сегменте.
Гарантирую: профитными арт-проектами я заложу основы отличной студии.
Поймите: в мире осталось очень мало реальных (не графоманов) сценаристов.
Сейчас нужен шанс самому автору делать проекты в интернете. Иначе потом страна не сможет конкурировать в этом виде бизнеса. А это восхитительный бизнес.
С уважением, Надежда Петрунина – сценарист, драматург, прозаик
With respect,
Independent Filmmakers
Nadezda Petrunina & Vladimir Kuznetsov
Contacts:
Petrunina Nadezda
Vladimir Kuznetsov
Moscow 107061 Russia
Telephone/ Fax 499 162 11 10
Vladimir-S-Kuznetsov@yandex.ru
Petrunina-Nad@yandex.ru
http://www.vladstepkuznetsov.com/

[Valentin]

The HOW can always change everything, because it's not the label that really matters, but the effect the thing has in real life for real people.
But of course, you can argue that the idea is bad or unnecessary, so why talk about it in the first place.
Something doesn't sound right about that. Wasn't it preferable that instead of all this outcry and frontal resistance, the opposers talk pragmatically and show it's not necessary, or not gonna work, and let it fade into oblivion? Is it normal to refuse it so straight away, from the principle, like anything else coming from Sarkozy - I'm not particularly speaking about Lily here.
If I look at how harsh the Guy Moquet idea was also fought and ridiculed by the same humanist Left (in real life France, not here), I can see a pattern which I find neither civic, nor democratic.

We'll probably not change our respective opinions anyway, so I'll leave it to that :)

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

QWERTY You have two keyboards. That's why I like the Dutch = an amazing proficiency in languages. I have been banging on for years suggesting to the British that they adopt the Dutch system of teaching languages, but ...nothing.
Politicians do not listen, they talk, and they interfere, as they have with the educational system in the UK since 1945: result, an army of illiterates and semi-literates, and scores of teenage murders by knife and gun.
Children do have early memories, but Sarko's soundbite is not necessary. Just so long as teachers continue with the
uncensored history of the German atrocities, they will remember. At 7 I remember seeing the film of the Nazis burning books, and even remember the title of one in the flames: "A Farewell to Arms", and my mother (a teacher) saying: "A nation that burns its book will come to a bad end."
"The Diary of Anne Frank" leaves a lasting impression on very young girls, and if there is a good investigative writer in France he/she could do the full story of Jacques Stern, which would stay in the memories of boys of his age (as I was) when he died in Auschwitz.
The testimony of Professor George Wellers at Eichman's trial:
"They arrived in buses, under the guard of the French police. The live cargo was quickly unloaded...The children were frightened...I was among the few who had access to them...some were barely two or three years old, they did not even know their names and we could not identify them. We put little discs on them bearing the names we gave them...They were all in rags and terribly dirty. They had sores all over their bodies and all suffered from diarrhea. They could not even get down to the lavatories...We had four groups of detainees to clean them and take care of them. At night we were not allowed to stay with them. They were crying, waking each other up and calling for their mothers....It was awful.
"Rene Blum, the brother of France's ex-Premier, was with me. One day we saw a boy perhaps seven or eight years old. He was in tatters, though it was obvious his clothes had once been of good quality; he had only one shoe. But he seemed very gay. Rene Blum, a tall man, bent down and asked the boy's name. He said: 'My name is Jacques Stern.' About his parents he said that his father had worked in an office and his mother played the piano. 'She plays well,' said the youngster. He asked whether he would soon leave the camp and join his parents. We always used to tell the children that they would soon be reunited with their parents though we knew that it was a lie...We told him that within two or three days he would join his mother. Then he took from inside his torn coat a piece of he army dry biscuit which the children were given, and said this: 'I've kept this; I'll give it to Mother.' Rene Blum was about to caress him when suddenly the boy, who a moment ago had been carefree and gay, burst into terrible loud sobbing. We left the room in silence...All four thousand children were soon sent away."
The stories of Anne Frank and Jacques Stern will warn them of the cruelty of human beings. There is no need to know the identities of 11,000 others, besides which, they did not have names, they became numbers to the Germans.
Sarkozy is not trying to make anyone feel guilty, he is saying: "Lest we forget" There are enough Holocaust deniers and Nazi propagandists, and re-writing history to keep us worried. I remember one who wrote constantly to newspapers in England saying the Basques had set fire to their own town, Guernica. He was in the pay of the C.I.A. But I knew an Australian reporter called Noel Monks, former high-diving champion, who lay on the hillside and witnessed the Condor legion practising the first German mass bombing raids. I also remember Spaniards attacking German tourists after they had seen the first film of the Holocaust on TV, because they had heard nothing of it during Franco's reign. Beware the liars, the paid propagandists, and the censors. Lest we forget.

[rocket]

Maggie

to French = To French Kiss

I wouldn't have written anything improper as I'm now in the line of fire after my last h**d d**k comment

[Daisy]

Maybe if Sarko lead a more moral life himself, people could take him seriously.

[Terry]

Qwerty:

"I never really figured out Holland's attraction to certain other nationalities"

Legalized marijuana and prostitution. Visiting Ann Frank's attic.

[Terry]

Nadezda said:

Обновите свое восприятие мира.
Вы часто говорите о стране. И я позволю себе пафос. Стране нужны проекты-бренды в интернет-сегменте.
Гарантирую: профитными арт-проектами я заложу основы отличной студии.

Oh, I couldnt agree more with this statement.

Charles, does this blog accept Hebrew script too? How about Druid runes?

[I don't read Hebrew or Druid. The Russian is a plea for support by a couple of film-makers. Not on topic but a lot of what goes on here is off the subject. CB]

[Terry]

Rocket:

One more if I may impose:

"I will not write down anything ten times anymore"

[Lily]

Ree, Rocket,

I hereby apologise for having asked you to copy something ten times. I hoped you would say I’m sorry instead of copying that thing ten times. Now, we see how silly the copy exercise has been.

The anti-bashing police sound as off-putting as bashing itself. So, I am not going to say anything anti anymore.
-----------------------------------------------------

Tee, Terry,

Is your upcoming trip to France putting you in such good mood?

------------------------------------------------------

“I see the whole thing as launching a debate, in pure Sarko style. He didn't impose anything” (Valentin)

Vee, Valentin,

We have a subscription to a French daily for kids (10 to 14year olds), and it explained everything about the Shoah and the Jewish child adoption that you could possibly debate, once the thing will have been decided upon.
The THAT wasn’t debated.
This thing will be taught during the school year 2008/2009.

What you call forgivingly “pure Sarko style” isn’t the democratic way towards change.

Regarding the idea itself, the Second World War/National Socialism/the Shoah are already taught in France, and at a younger age compared to what I have experienced in Germany (age 14). I still believe that most 10-year-olds lack maturity to understand this whole thing that remains incomprehensible for many adults.

After these history lessons in CM-2, many kids from my son’s class (who spoke little French back then) labelled him Hitler (for the rest of the school year). That’s how mature kids are at that age.

-------------------------------------------------

Ree, Tee, Vee,

I learnt that it is nice to call others X-ee. English is such a complex language with endless subtleties….

Lee :)

[Dominique]

Valentin,

"But of course, you can argue that the idea is bad or unnecessary, so why talk about it in the first place. [...] Wasn't it preferable that instead of all this outcry and frontal resistance, the opposers talk pragmatically and show it's not necessary, or not gonna work, and let it fade into oblivion?"

If only Sarko was as reasonable as you are, he would have acted "pragmatically" and let it fade into oblivion himself...

You seam to forget he is president and he is expected to act in, at least, an adult way, at best a stateman way.

Don't expect that from his opponents nor the people, they (we) just have not been elected... We are still allowed to be childish ;=).

Please, dont blame the society for reacting to stupid president's words. We are not in Cuba yet ...

[Daniel Strohl]

Dominique,

Re : your post dated 18 FEB - 22:32

Ok, Dominique, ok, I know that I have got an obsolete point of view, and may be not only regarding the above matter! On ne se refait pas!

What you say about Fadela Amara is funny. If she complies with the reputation of the Auvergnats, she is hard working, thrifty and sparing. The two latter adjectives are rather unusual to qualify a minister ... Hopefully they apply to her! It is not at all unlikely ...

[Terry]

Lee:

"Tee, Terry,

Is your upcoming trip to France putting you in such good mood?"

Unfortunately, the trip is off for the moment. I was meeting my wife over there on a business trip. As my wife now has to be back in the US around that time, it's not happening. We are trying to work out coming to my wife's cousin's wedding in Southern France this July. I think I got him into this site. I know his father reads here now thanks to moi.

Bremner owes me commission.

[Valentin]

Children are not mature enough to understand many things, this is why the things they're taught must be carefully chosen and explained. Lily's remark is a matter of HOW. I gave an example of teaching a victim memory without the negative stuff. One can add the "moralité" part to it: dont judge others by the race etc etc.

So it is done already. So, where's the problem? Since some complain of the present way of teaching the Shoah, why not integrate a new way, like speaking about a real person who fell victim to it. I'm less defending Sarko and more giving examples of why the idea is not absurd, IMO. THIS is called a debate.

Dominique,
As you know, Jewish organizations and Socialist Party leaders approved the idea, so it's strange to speak about immature, stupid or unpragmatical, or about "the society" rejecting it.

[Maggie G]

There are two movies about wolves out just now, "Survivre avec les Loups" and the new one with Laeticia Casta, "La Jeune Fille et les Loups". I was thinking it would be interesting to compare them, but I didn't want to see the first one until I'd read the book. I've had it for over a year, but hadn't got around to reading it yet. So I read it on Sunday.

It's the one about the little Jewish girl, seven years old, who set out from Brussels with her little compass, a kitchen knife, two apples and a loaf of bread in her little pack pack, to find her parents who had been deported to the "East". She spent four years crossing war-torn Belgium, Germany, Poland, and Ukraine, and returning by way of Roumania and Yugoslavia (after deciding, because of the horrors she had seen in Poland and Ukraine, that her parents must still be in Belgium after all).

It's an extraordinary story, almost unbelievable, but it is also the most heart-rending thing I have ever read. After finishing the book I cried and cried. Even today, two days later, I cried all over again.

The only thing that gave this tiny girl the courage and strength and determination to carry on was her absolute certainty that she was going to find her mother. And the terrible tragedy of it is that she never found her. It was all for nothing. And she has spent the rest of her life still longing for her mother.

In a sense this is a perfect Shoah story for children because it is totally about a child, and is an incredible adventure that any child would dream about. But could any child bear the pain of knowing that this incredibly brave little girl was never going to find her mother? Would a child be more or less marked by this tragedy than I was? I don't think I have ever in my life been more moved by a story (and I have read plenty of books about the Holocaust).

I think I will go to see the movie because I think it will be mostly about her time with the wolves. Since it is a family movie they will obviously have left out the most shocking parts.

To think that I nearly sent this book to a ten-year-old nephew for Christmas. Thank goodness I didn't. It's a thrilling story, and I do think children are resilient, but I just don't know if they could bear the pain in this story.

As Dominique said, they are doing enough in the schools already.

[Valentin]

One remark by Dominique is particularly interesting:

"If only Sarko was as reasonable as you are"

Has anyone realized that ever since May 2007 we only speak about Sarko's latest provocation? Everything he does attracts the attention, creates a huge outcry of some sort (usually indignation :)) - be the topics personal, or political - especially since his divorce.
Has anyone noticed how all media attention focuses on Sarko, all the time, each day on a new theme, over and over again, while in the meantime the government silently drove the CGT into submission, installed the minimum service, changed the university laws, changed the "carte judiciaire" (courts of law have been redispatched all over the territory), changed the "carte scolaire", dealt with the medical emergency issues, unions and employers negotiated a change of the employment laws ....

Has anyone noticed how we all focus on Sarko, while the government is silently making the reforms, no one worries about strikes anymore, and the prime minister's popularity grows constantly? :)

[azloon]

[Ree, Tee, Vee,

I learnt that it is nice to call others X-ee. English is such a complex language with endless subtleties….

Lee :)] Lily

lol

Lily (not 'Lee') -- it's a 'guy thing.' sexism, pure and simple, but to whose advantage is debatable.

:o)

[Lily]

"There is no need to know the identities of 11,000 others, besides which, they did not have names, they became numbers to the Germans."

Peter,

They had names and identities.
It is important to know that they weren't numbers.

And it is important to understand that a specific nation has been responsible for such atrocities; a nation that, too, consists of names and identities. It is crucial to differentiate.

I consider it more desirable to instill curiosity in young French and German children for one another in order to build a base for continued (and lasting) friendship between these two nations.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

Dear Lily - Lee
You may address Tee and Vee in any way you wish, but please do not apply your sysem of address to me.
Yes, English can be difficult. For example Michael Winner, the much abused restaurant critic for The Sunday Times, wrote this week that he had been served "leak soup". I replied that a chef told me waiters s p i t in his soup. I have never heard of one taking a leak in it.
P e t e r.

[rocket]

Terry

"Unfortunately, the trip is off for the moment"

Too bad. I was going to offer you dinner at Chez Mickey D's

[rocket]

Terry

We are trying to work out coming to my wife's cousin's wedding in Southern France this July. I think I got him into this site. I know his father reads here now thanks to moi.

Ah! so now I understand Dominique is your wife's cousin and Valentin is his father

[Lily]

"You may address Tee and Vee in any way you wish, but please do not apply your sysem of address to me."

Gee, Peter! That had occurred to me, already... It doesn't work with Maggie either. She would be Mee, and others would be free or fee or wee or bee or - you name it.

I am glad, Azloon has explained it's a hee - a "guy" thing. So, I can drop it altogether. [sigh of relief]

[Lily]

Valentin,

Sarko has made a decision.

Do you think it was right or wrong to make this decision (not launch a debate) without prior consultation of those concerned or experts, etc.?

Right or wrong?

[rocket]

Valentin

"Has anyone realized that ever since May 2007 we only speak about Sarko's latest provocation? Everything he does attracts the attention, creates a huge outcry of some sort (usually indignation :)) - be the topics personal, or political - especially since his divorce."

It's true but I think he pissed off a lot of people by being bling bling Ask any political adviser. That's what people remember. He also totally forgot the main theme of his campaign and that was purchasing power. ("je ne peux rien, les caisses sont vides")

IMHO the salary increase was poorly interpreted. Yes he brought his salary up to acceptable levels which meant less abuse of taxpayer money for the Presidential expenses as in the past, but people don't want to know about it. They just saw the salary increase. In fact it was "melange" of many things. Maybe he can recover but I think he will be less bold with his reforms in the future.

"Bremner owes me commission."

Bon courage: he's a Scot!

I always thought Chaperon Rouge was such a shocking story. How can you tell a 7 yo about the little girl going to pay a visit to her granny, and finding the wolf instead, dressed as the granny, in granny's bed, only with a bigger nose, bigger ears and especially those BIG TEETH !
And the outcome of that story, oh the Horror! Children must have been scared for life, century after century!

[Nicola Medici]

Preziosi's photo in Journal du Dimanche is less similiar to Gaddafi than in Times's image. If Gaddafi's father was really Preziosi, Gaddafi could have helped the FNLC for a filial attachment like that one of the English kings with mother from Normandy. Coming back to a new Middle Age, Sarko has a Jewish mother and he could think to be the right man for the Palestine. If Sarko stresses on the Holocaust he has some projects. Sarko is a old politician and a politician doesn't make anything for nothing. At this point the Holocaust is only a good card for any foreign policy.You can play this card how you wish for different ends.It's a political rethoric. I don't think Sarko wants to make the French feel guilty, but only to improve French relationships with Israel. With a Gaddafi half French Sarko could have another good card to play. Because we know Mrs.Sarkozy's father is'nt Mr. Bruni, it's always possible a Carla's father from Egypt. But the great French problem is the French revolution. They killed all the French royal family and aristocracy so all Sarko's work is without future. The French can ask the Brits a friendly English invasion of Normandy headed by an half French-half English prince. At this point Sarkozy could ask William and Harry to go in Paris. What do you think about a concert for Princess Diana in Paris? Differently the French can ask help to Spain.

[qwerty]

Re Holocaust (cf. Peter Kinsley & other posts):

Last night there was a docu-fiction on France2 glorifying French Resistance. My comments:

1) first a disclaimer, I zapped & did other things and only saw part of the documentary.

2) one scene I did not miss is where French Vichy police discuss achieving the precise quotas they have been assigned for turning Jews over to the Nazis. See Nicolas Sarkozy/Brice Hortefeux and current quotas for expelling illegal immigrants.

3) Just before the documentary in the journal de 20 heures, same channel, there was a reportage about French resistance to current immigration policy: individuals hiding families of illegal immigrants (passible de 5 ans de prison). FRANCE 2 EST-ELLE SUBREPTICEMENT ENTREE EN RESISTANCE??

4) I don't want do any unnecessary book-keeping, but how about setting off the French resistant attitude in WWII against the French collaborationist attitude? Where does the balance fall?

I personally knew a family that got rich during the war. From selling Breton crêpes pre-war to selling photocameras during the war and acquiring a lot of expensive real estate, still in the family. Whose members were, when I knew them, cynical, pro-Le Pen and antisemitic. En toute impunité. They once admitted that the grandmother would have been liable for the firing squad in 1945.

If I know of one such case, there must be many more. A lot of dirty secrets... what were the French postwar authorities doing?

[Valentin]

Lily,
Things are never black and white. Here's an article from Le Parisien.
http://www.leparisien.fr/home/info/vivremieux/articles.htm?articleid=296070521

The reform has been "téléguidée de l'Elysée" as they say, but it will still be submitted to debate.

"Cette refonte a été préparée dans une grande discrétion. Les propositions du ministère seront ensuite soumises aux enseignants, avant que le texte définitif ne soit présenté au Haut Conseil supérieur de l'éducation, en mai."

Teachers and experts will have their say, or else nobody will be surprised to get the CPE kind of strikes.
On the other hand, Sarko DID explain and promise all that during the campaign. That's why he was voted in. That's IMO more democratical than the kind of "democratie participative" left seem to suddenly prefer now that they lost the elections.

[Valentin]

Rocket,

That was not my point. My point was that besides several obvious mistakes, he deliberately focuses all criticism on his personna, in order to open wide the road for the government.

I doubt anyone realizes the size and the scope of the reforms having been already put in place.
Nobody does because the media (as well as our own CB) focuses on marriages, SMSs and other Rolexes.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

Three littler letters = DNA. Could they be the beginning of the end of Nationalism throughout the world? If Monsieur Sarkozy discovered that he had Arab blood would he shout with joy? We do not know what Mrs.Thatcher said when her daughter's submission to a DNA test showed her family has Egyptian blood.
Semite, n. & a. (Member) of any of the races supposed to be descended from Shem (Gen. x. 21 foll.) includijng esp. the Hebrews, Arameans, Phoniceans, Arabs and Assyrians (LL f. Gk Sem Shem, -ite)
== The Oxford English dictionary.
All members of the same happy family, yet all the wars and hatred.
Nationalism, Religion and Greed cause the wars. If the scientists of the future can eliminate them from the human race we may eventually live in peace. But - do the Jews want it? Do the Arabs want it? Do Sarkozy and Thatcher want it? Does anyone want it, or will humans just glory in their "blood-lines" and ancestry for ever?
I wrote to Ken Livingstone recently suggesting he hold the next Olympics without flags. No Nationalism. No reply. Perhaps in another thousand years...

[Maggie G]

"I don't want do any unnecessary book-keeping, but how about setting off the French resistant attitude in WWII against the French collaborationist attitude? Where does the balance fall?" (QWERTY)

Yes, if it should be decided that each primary class will have a deported Jewish child to remember, why not ALSO give each class a Jewish child who was hidden and saved, to remember?

This would be better in every way -- more bearable for the children, less concerned with guilt and judgement, more interesting in that different kinds of behaviour could be compared and contrasted and discussed.

I too would like to know -- how many Jewish children were sent to the ovens, and how many were saved, hidden by non-Jewish families, Catholic priests and so on?

[Nicola Medici]

Concedo Nulli -- which resistance's
child are you? Are you French? If you are Italian, you should know that now also the former Communist historians call civil war what before called "Italian Resistance". Concedo Nulli, WW2 is ended, stop to use Holocaust to get power in your country.If you are Italian tell me the history of your family. In Italy now the former Italian Communist Veltroni is speaking always about his love for Italy and for the US. Veltroni's party has now the Italian flag like symbol, the same Communists have not the red flag for the next election. You know Italian flag was considered Fascist until the end of Soviet Union. Until 15 years ago you know it was considered Fascist to write something like "I like my couuntry", to sing Italian hymn, the same Italian flag, to say that Italy lost the WW2. It was forbidden to say Italy had lost the war. So if you are Italian stop with this rethoric because you are telling a lot of lies. The Italian Jews were about 50.000 and Italians 50 millions. As Alexander Stile writes in his book Italians couldn't be anti-Jews simply because the most didn't have any relationship with Jews. Most of the Jews were Fascist and helped Mussolini to get power. The Jews changed feelings in 1938 when Italy made some laws for which Jews cannot have jobs in public life. Until 1938 Italy gave help to many German Jews. The situation changed when it was decided to ally with Hitler after the fall of French army. If French army resisted, Mussolini didn't make war to France, but he had worked for a peace conference. So, if you are Italian stop to say lies. For Italian Jews in 1938 the situation it was not different from Italian Fascists in 1945. They were banned, killed and persecuted in any place. Almost all the Italian became antifascist after 15 April 1945. It was a tragic comedy, but Italy had lost war, it was invaded, divided in two part, and the part winner killed and persecuted the Italians defeated. Stop to say lies, please. This is life and it's normal, don't lie you are Italian.
Anyway, I have no problems to say that my father's family ( I was not born at the time) helped Jews and the men of my father's family were all killed fighting, but my father.
My father's and my mother's family men fought by the Italian Social Republic side , not by the side of the king. My family fought the Allies, the Brits and Americans and I am not antiBrititish, nor antiAmerican.
War is a question between states, not between individuals and when the war stops, you have no enemies. You make a treaty of peace, and if you won you get power, if you lost, you lost power. A simple question.
Italy had a civil war during the WW2, like many South European countries. Anyway, almost any Europan continental West country was split in two parts two times.
WW1 and WW2 are like the wars of the 17th century. The war is ended, the Jews got Israel, and there is this Holocaust rethoric for questions of foreign policy in Middle East.

[Lily]

« The reform has been "téléguidée de l'Elysée" as they say, but it will still be submitted to debate. “

Valentin,

You have avoided my question.

I understand that you consider the reform process democratic.

In that you consider decision-making ‘Sarko style’ okay.

You could have given a black/white reply, because your answer implies that he has been RIGHT to decide on his own.

Whatever Sarko may have announced or explained during the campaign prior to his election belongs on his agenda. I agree.

This DOES NOT ALLOW HIM TO DECIDE ON EVERYTHING ALONE, just because he was elected.

“Submitted to debate” means that his subjects must work out the small print. That’s all.

[kader]

It seems clear that Gaddaffi is the son of Preziosi.But like Clooney, what else? It will not change the behaviour of Gaddafi the dictator since 1969.

[Nicola Medici]

I agree completely with Peter Kinsley's last post.

[sk]

and murdoch is iranian

typicall murdoch commentry

[Valentin]

I didn't avoid - or at least not deliberately.

You say the primary school reform and shoah child adoption have already been decided and will be in place since next autumn.

I hear Xavier Darcos speaking about shoah adoption by a class, not by a child.
Then I read in the paper that the reform has been prepared by the government under presidential pilotage and it will now be forwarded to teachers and experts for debate.

So for me, it certainly isn't "decision without debate".
Maybe your booklet isn't the official voice, but was anticipating on what might come à la rentrée?

[azloon]

I found the following fact(?) on a website called 'cousin couples.' (i was wanting to know more about the incidence of birth defects in Pakistani children born in Britain).

"We are all cousins. No two people are more distantly related than 50th cousins."

so, as Sly and the Family Stone sang back in the 70s:

WE ARE FAM --IL -- EEE !!!

so kisses are in order for all of our fellow world citizens-- just not 'french' ones with first cousins.

[Lily]

Valentin,

Today I read this in online news:

“Nicolas Sarkozy "a fixé une ligne d'horizon, il a fixé une orientation, et c'est à nous d'organiser maintenant sur le plan pédagogique les dispositifs nécessaires", a expliqué le ministre de l'Education nationale »

And Charles says this :

“Sarkozy backed off and the idea, like many others lately, has effectively been buried.”

What looked like a decision could maybe lead to nothing. Decision-making pure Sarko-style? I am confused.

[Valentin]

Lily,

From where I stand, what the Left calls "deciding alone" or "monarchical style" mainly means that Sarkozy should not prepare any governing act without them.
Well no, he and his team were elected. They govern. They prepare laws and reforms. After a public debate (which must not last for years) the (corrected) reforms will be put into practice.
No government EVER started by preparing its measures with the Opposition. Democracy is like this: Power proposes, civic debate follows, Power corrects trajectory (or NOT - it is THEM the responsible ones!), Parliament debates and votes.

If you read this article published today in Le Monde, you'll see that Sarko has certainly NOT backed off on the shoah:
http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2008/02/20/memoire-de-la-shoah-les-institutions-juives-demandent-des-amenagements-a-la-proposition-de-nicolas-sarkozy_1013477_3224.html#ens_id=861150

If you will read here, you will see that the elementary school reform will certainly be submitted to serious debate:
http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/article/2008/02/20/reforme-darcos-de-l-ecole-primaire-des-programmes-plus-resserres-sur-des-objectifs-plus-evalues_1013454_3224.html#ens_id=1013456

Les textes présentés mercredi "ne seront pas figés" et seront "soumis à concertation", a indiqué d'avance l'entourage de M. Darcos. D'une part, une demi-journée "banalisée" (sans cours) sera organisée dans toutes les écoles pour permettre aux enseignants d'en discuter. D'autre part, les débats au sein d'une trentaine d'établissements témoins seront attentivement suivis par le ministère afin de voir "ce qui peut heurter".

[Lily]

Thank you, Valentin.

I have read your links.

[From where I stand, what the Left calls "deciding alone" or "monarchical style" mainly means that Sarkozy should not prepare any governing act without them.] you

This is certainly true for the Left, although my above quote from Darcos suggests that it was Sarko who decided in a rather solitary act:

[Nicolas Sarkozy "a fixé une ligne d'horizon, il a fixé une orientation, et c'est à nous d'...]

Yes, I am nit-picking.

[Maggie G]

Valentin,

You said to Sandrine this morning that Simone Veil has now changed her mind.

Have you got a link for that, please?

[Valentin]

Forget Sarko. I was wondering, why would someone call herself Lily - I mean, why not, que sais-je, Gwendolyine ? :)

[Valentin]

[ I don't think you're nitpicking, but isn't that what French presidents do? As CB says, French presidency *is* a bit monarchic; don't US Presidents do the same, advancing measures and plans despite democratic Congress, and sometimes despite their own camp? You'll never see Bush taken for a dictator]

[Valentin]

" Simone Veil, qui s'était élevée contre l'initiative de Nicolas Sarkozy, a accepté de participer à la mission mise en place pour réfléchir aux modalités d'application de cette proposition, selon le site internet du Point"

http://www.lexpress.fr/info/quotidien/actu.asp?id=466082

http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-confidentiels/memoire-de-la-shoah-simone-veil-participera-a-la-mission-darcos/915/0/224317

[Gwendolyine]

[don't US Presidents do the same, advancing measures and plans despite...]

Valentin,

They don't find my praise for doing that, either.

Was anybody called 'dictator'?

Tell me, please, have we met before? Did you read about me in a book or have you seen me on a movie screen? Or did we meet in Sevilla?

[Valentin]

Gwen :)

It's not that they deserve praise or not. The point is, US Presidents are respected by everybody, even when they dont seem to really deserve it, and their right to make a decision alone is recognized as a privilege of the function.

D'ailleurs see Simone Veil above, who confirmed what I said in my very first post on this: she realized it's a matter of HOW, stopped criticizing something not precisely defined yet, and got constructive instead of obstructive.

Gwen. Maybe we met, maybe not. Are you giving me the privacy speech? telling me to mind my business? :)
It just so happens that I have a thing for the name Lily, from various personal reasons, and I was curious if you yourself had any particular reason for this choice, that's all.

[rocket]

Valentin

"It's not that they deserve praise or not. The point is, US Presidents are respected by everybody, even when they dont seem to really deserve it, and their right to make a decision alone is recognized as a privilege of the function."

A bon! Especially Chirac and the French response to the invasion in Iraq which put Bush on a pedastal in france and Europe. Seems that the French more vociferous than others in voicing there "mécontentment" have never gotten over the fact that George W. Bush is President of the United States "parceque ça ne leur plait pas".

So what are you saying?

[Valentin]

Yes Rocket, internationally you're right; I was speaking about the position of the President at home, in the US.

[Tam]

Even though he may be a French citizen, that father certainly was ITALIAN!

[rocket]

Valentin

"Yes Rocket, internationally you're right; I was speaking about the position of the President at home, in the US."

Believe me he is not so revered in the US either anymore. Just that Americans express it differently.

[Terry]

Valentin said:

"The point is, US Presidents are respected by everybody, even when they dont seem to really deserve it, and their right to make a decision alone is recognized as a privilege of the function."

Yes, this is somewhat true with the exception that the people unhappy with a particular decision will say he had no right to make it alone.

One of the fundamental problems seems to be that people dont understand how government functions. The US president is an executive. He is basically oversees the executive agencies, i.e., the commerce dept, agriculture, FDA, FBI, etc. He appoints the heads of the agencies (with consent of Congress). But he can order these agencies to make decisions and policies without the consent of Congress. Congress is the legislative branch. It passes laws. It can investigate the executive branch, hold hearings on executive agencies decisions, cut funding for the agencies, etc. And, for the most part, President cannot do anything about what Congress chooses to do. The whole point of the US system is to divide power among three branches. Each branch has its own power and each branch has checks against the other branches power. I believe the French system is very similiar in this aspect. To call Sarko "monarchial" for using his constitutional powers, I think is quite incorrect. But what he is doing is emblematic of another problem.

I think the main point people are missing is WHY Sarko has chosen to do this. Why has he done this when there are so many other things in France that need to be fixed? Because it's politically easy. It's completely within his power to implement. The program has a warm fuzzy feeling to it. Anyone who is against it, may look like an anti- semite. And, it makes it seem like he has reformed education when he has actually accomplished nothing. I think this is evidence that Sarko has run his course as far as real reforms are concerned.

This dove tails with what I said about the Sarko Carla story. There is nothing else really to report because Sarko's not really doing anything else.

[Valentin]

"Just that Americans express it differently."

...and certainly not here, I would add. Unusually shy in this respect, our yankee friends. C'mon Rocket, just this once, a bit of BushBashing! Pretty please! :D

[rocket]

Terry

I believe the French system is very similar in this aspect. To call Sarko "monarchial" for using his constitutional powers, I think is quite incorrect

NOT! Very little similarity with the American Presidency. America is a Federal State (country) France is not.

You know. States rights and all that good stuff that we study first year law.

Reread the constitution of the 5th republic. Quite enormous powers for the President of the country.

[rocket]

Valentin

Unusually shy in this respect, our yankee friends.

Not really. We just don't go into the streets to show our "mécontentment"

We wait for the next election and vote the person out. ( Like G. Bush Senior) in spite of the first Gulf War victory was voted out because of the economy.

Terry,
Apparently you're not up to date with my comments on this blog. It's really not done, from the very President of my fan club!

What I tried to say on another thread is that reforms are being done, some quite important. The media don't reflect the reality, but their obsession with celebrity stories.
Here, I'm important enough to be quoting myself without blushing :)

"Has anyone noticed how all media attention focuses on Sarko, all the time, each day on a new theme, over and over again, while in the meantime the government silently drove the CGT into submission, installed the minimum service, changed the university laws, changed the "carte judiciaire" (courts of law have been redispatched all over the territory), changed the "carte scolaire", dealt with the medical emergency issues, unions and employers negotiated a change of the employment laws ...."

There's also the tax-reduction laws, the environmental laws that just start to be enacted, the primary school reform, next months the retirement system and the hospitals.
Things are moving, if one really wants to look.

[Daniel Strohl]

Terry,

You should read carefully Valentin's post above. The things already made by Sarkozy and his government are may be not spectacular seen from the outside (i.e New-Jersey), but it was
not an easy task. Of course, many things have still to be done, and it will take a few years to get really measurable results, visible also from outside (I have just checked with WIKIPEDIA - Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister from 1979 to 1990 - it took her several years to bring the UK back on track, although one can't say that the lady was especially soft minded ...).

One should not forget that we live since many years not to say decades in an ossified society, with many lobbies, some of them entrenched since 1945 thanks to the Communist Party which was very strong at the time (for instance CGT union at EDF - utilities with state monopole - CGT union at SNCF railway with state monopole).

The various lobbies had succeeded up to now to block any serious reform. Most of the judges unions are left leaning - the same for our Education Nationale. Both corporations are not known to be keen on evolution ...

Another brake to evolution is our "système de caste" - almost all high level positions in the industry and high administration are occupied by alumni of the Grandes Ecoles. And up to Sarkozy, almost all minister posts were also monopolyzed by the same caste. This has now changed, with young and diversified blood, and some energetic ladies as well .

This crime de lèse-majesté (which has also been silently resented on the left) has probably added a few brainy batallions to Sarkosy's ennemies. But of course, they nevertheless remain ready to "voler au secours de la victoire" (fly to the rescue of victory).

[Terry]

Rocket said:

"NOT! Very little similarity with the American Presidency. America is a Federal State (country) France is not.

You know. States rights and all that good stuff that we study first year law."

As you must know given my politics, I am a huge fan of federalism. And I have no idea if the concept exists in France.

My point really is that I dont see why Sarko is being called "monarchial" given that he is only using the powers granted to him under the constitution. Bush has also been called "King George" for exerting governmental power granted to him.

Perhaps, people dont like the monarchial manner in which he is exerting his power.

[Terry]

Daniel:

"One should not forget that we live since many years not to say decades in an ossified"

This is part of my point on how difficult it is to implement change for someone with, as Rocket tells me, has extensive constitutional powers. We elect Presidents to institute change. However, there are many forces arrayed against them that prevent them from really instituting change. You seem to acknowledge my point when you say the unions have blocked his reforms. How did they do this? Constitutional checks on Sarko's power exerted by another branch of government-judges.

Again, my vantage point is rather far. And I dont read French newspapers. But the differences dont seem so apparent to me.

[Daniel Strohl]

TERRY,

"when you say the unions have blocked his reforms"

No, Terry, they (mostly the CGT) have tried. The reason is that up to Sarkozy's arrival, they had almost always succeeded, with sometimes massive strikes.

Sarkozy and his government have already enforced some significative reforms, as stated by Valentin. But many things remain to do, if we want to catch up with the competition.

Your statement "there are many forces arrayed against them that prevent them from really instituting change" still holds true in France for the moment. But, as La Fontaine said in "Le Lion et le Rat": "Patience et longueur de temps font plus que force ni que rage" - patience and time achieve more than force and rage.

And Sarkozy is patient, even if he does not look like. May be the right adjective is "tenacious" (translated a few days ago by the leftist Besancenot as "Il s'accroche méchamment").

I like tenacious. It's a quality I value a LOT. It goes well with "true to oneself".

[rocket]

Terry

And I have no idea if the concept exists in France. (Federalism) NOT!

"Perhaps, people dont like the monarchial manner in which he is exerting his power." EXACTLY!

"You seem to acknowledge my point when you say the unions have blocked his reforms. How did they do this?"

Strikes, Going into the streets, smashing up Universities = French get fed up with the mess = Gov'ts back down = gov'ts cave in = maintaining status quo.

Terry, If you haven't lived it it is difficult to imagine how it comes down here. Usually a non immersed Anglo mind outside of France can't fathom what goes on here and rightly so. It's all based on the aura of who has the upper hand at the moment. It's a French thing.

Next time you come (to Paris LOL), I'll explain it to you.

[rocket]

Terry

"But the differences dont seem so apparent to me."

Try habeas corpus for starters as an example in the Judicial system.

http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=5

"Indeed, some European countries which have signed it show scant regard for liberty or justice. The plane spotters incarcerated in Greece illustrate that the convention doesn’t stop flagrant abuses of human rights. France is also notorious for jailing people for years before bringing them to trial."

Then move on to class action.

http://tinyurl.com/36yah2

Season it with the fact that hearsay is often admitted in a court of law.

http://tinyurl.com/375n6r

And as desert a nice helping of preventive detention

http://tinyurl.com/3dyx9d

Oh what a joy, how lucky we are to have the United States of America. This Land of Democracy, this Heaven of Human Rights (take for instance Guantanamo Bay) and Freedom (as in spying people without warrant, on reasons no more serious than hearsay).

This Glorious Land, where people are civilized (and torture a state policy), the rule of law is respected (as in, democrat politicians thrown in jail just before elections), where the law system is guaranteed independent (judges in the Supreme Court are clearly labeled left or right, their decision statistics backing those labels). Where judges and prosecutors are elected, so they behave like politicians, populist and deceitful.

What a Magnificent Land, America. How BLESSED we are. Let's all be Americans and enjoy the American Dream ! YEAH !

[qwerty]

Somewhere is a saying that "the English comply with laws but don't respect [unwarranted] authority; the French circumvent laws but cave in to authority". I can't remember either the source or the exact wording.

[Maggie G]

Mr Bremner, I think this anonymous person should be outed. Is it the same person every time?

[no. it's different IP addresses at least. sometimes it's people we know who have just forgotten to put their names, but not in this case. I put the comments through unless they are offensive. CB]

[Pierre Bernardi]

Terry, Congress can "cut funding for the agencies". So the US legislative branch has what can only be described as executive powers. In other words, nothing in politics is ever clear-cut. Which is why Blair and Thatcher were accused of having presidential or authoritarian tendencies in the UK. We now have Gordon Brown, who takes no decisions. Which is worse?

Rocket, Ségolène Royal lauded the Chinese justice system. So it was logical for Nicolas Sarkozy to introduce indefinite detention. See "Prisonnier de Mao" by Pascqualini for further details: reeducation camps ensure that undesirables are prevented from spreading their undesirable views, except in the edifying form of confession. Mind you, I'm all for keeping drugs out of psychiatric treatment. I just don't think that psychoanalysis should be administered under lock-and-key.

[Daniel Strohl]

MAGGIE G,

"I put the comments through unless they are offensive" (CB).

This means that CB does not consider this comment to be offensive. However, it is unpleasingly ironical, sarcastic and exaggerated - exactly in the style sometimes used by Rocket. Therefore, if CB lets get through some Rocket comments of this style, there is no justification for him to "oust" the above anonymous comment, except the fact that it is anonymous. May be the above gentleman could complete his post with his (true) name - then his comment would be worth to be considered as a valid if exaggerated answer to Rocket's post.

ROCKET,

(Your post dated 22 FEB 22:11)

Hereafter comments regarding your various links. Up to now, you had accustomed us to quality links. May be your were tired yesterday evening - this may explain a drop in your usual quality standards - LOL!

1. Up to now, I hadn't noticed that you were prone to be subjugated by the type of "barratin gauchiste anti-européen" (apparently of British obedience) appearing in www.melanie.com - but everybody has the right to change - LOL!

2. Class action - so what?

3. Hearsay

The linked text contains 4 lines in French, in which there are already 2 major grammar errors (“loi relatif”, which should read “loi relative”; “devrait être assimilé” instead of “devrait être assimilée”). Let us hope that their judicial argumentation is of a higher quality level – LOL!

More seriously, Rocket, if the above text had been quoted say by a Scandinavian or a British (however prior to the newer anti-terrorism laws) in order to criticize a French law in preparation, I would have listened carefully. But coming from an US citizen, “c’est l’hôpital qui se fout de la charité” (It is the hospital which is making fun of charity).

May I recall what TERRY said a few days ago: “American justice is even worse now than at the time of Judge Roy Bean”. Ok, it was said half jokingly – but nevertheless …

Maggie = it's not worth "outing" the anonymous member of "Rent a Sneer" because it sounds like a Chihuahua yapping up at a Great Dane. The hate-America brigade have been at it since "US GO HOME" on the walls if Paris in 1950. Americans did not force Europeans to eat Hamburgers, or Southern Fried Chicken or to wear blue Jeans (de Nimes!) or to listen t