Sarkozy loses cool and wants UN defence for French cooking

Here's another glimpse of why Nicolas Sarkozy is unlike his predecessors. In the clip Sarko gives a taste of his rough side at the annual Paris Agricultural Show. When Sarko approaches while shaking hands with the crowd, the man on the left says (in ungrammatical French): "Don't touch me". Sarko replies: "Then get lost". The man: "You dirty me when you touch me". Sarko: "Then get lost, pauvre con." This translates roughly as "stupid a-hole", stupid sod, or the equivalent.

Sarko's more regal predecessors no doubt used such language, but never in public. His readiness to mix it in an unpresidential way with hecklers is part of the reason that his popularity has slumped. The latest poll in today's Journal du Dimanche, shows him down nine points in a month at 38 percent approval. In contrast, François Fillon, his prime pinister, is at 57 percent.

The pollsters say this reflects the way that Sarkozy has reversed the traditional roles. The prime minister is reserved and dignified, staying in the background like a president, while Sarkozy is out in front taking on all-comers. The presidential visit to the annual Salon de l'Agriculture is an important ritual because of the mystical bond which France entertains with the countryside and its produce. Jacques Chirac, pretended to be a countryman and put on a great show at the salon, wandering around stalls slapping cattle, knocking back wine and tasting sausage.

Not Sarko, a life-long urbanite. He made a quick drop-by and, before exchanging the insults in the video, he delivered a speech that was mainly about protecting France and its food producers from foreign competition.

The most quaint point was his announcement that France will apply to Unesco to have French cuisine listed as part of the world's heritage.

I know that there is a history to this, but it seems bizarre to claim that something as intangible and alive as cooking can be protected like a monument. And surely French cuisine, among the finest in the world, hardly needs defending.

The UN Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization started listing intangible cultural treasures in 2003. They include such things as dance, carnival or other rituals, often performed by minorities who need the moral support.

In 2005, Unesco turned down a request by Mexico to have its culinary heritage recognised. A band of star chefs, including Paul Bocuse, Alain Ducasse and Michel Guerard, have been pushing for a French culinary listing for the past couple of years. Guy Savoy, one of the them, said that putting Gallic gastronomy on the Unesco list would protect restaurants and also charcutiers', cheese producers, wine makers and patissiers.

"You can talk about cuisine in numerous countries around the world. But France is the only one to have such diversity and such possibilities for transforming the produce of local artisans, be they on land or sea," he told news agencies.

French wine producing regions such as Saint-Emilion and the Loire Valley already enjoy World Heritage status. Other French sites include Chartres Cathedral, Mont Saint Michel and the banks of the Seine in Paris. No doubt cuisine is culture as the listing advocates say.

But what is Unesco supposed to do about it?  Will it list restaurants like the Michelin guide ? Will Unesco police pounce on cooks who mess up their mayonnaise?  Will it protect cassoulet and bouillabaisse or ensure that French restaurants in San Francisco serve real camembert ?

Comments

[Christine]

The funny thing is that his announcement, which is in the straight line of his strategy of "effet d'annonce" everytime he sets foot out of the Elysée, was totally overwhelmed by the incident on the video. It could actually seem totally unfair, since his reaction was rather appropriate to the symbolic violence of the men (tu me salis quand tu me touches). But the question is: if his announcement had been a serious one, would the video have "won" against the announcement in terms of mediatic exposition? More than his temper, the successful competition of the video shows the actual vacuity of presidential speeches.

[Paula]

Bob Hawke, when he was Australian Prime Minister, was caught by TV cameras being rude to an old man in a shopping centre...and the media kept replaying the incident for years after, and it was used by the Opposition in the run up to the next election.

[Joëlle]

But Bob Hawke didn't bang on about how it was Australia's role to civilise the world - or how we should go back to such basics as "education civique et morale" in primary school!

[Romain]

"Casse toi, pauvre con". These are very crude words. My translation would be: "Piss off! Punk".
The YouTube video is all over the French media.

[rocket]

Christine

"since his reaction was rather appropriate to the symbolic violence of the men (tu me salis quand tu me touches)."

One would hope that Statesmen/women would be above this tit for tat kind of response.

This is simply another witness to a temper which can flare out of control anytime anywhere.

I think we ain't seen nothing yet.

PS - Charles. Mental telepathy. I saw this a few days ago but didn't send it to you knowing that you would pick up on it.

[rocket]

"Casse toi, pauvre con"

An American would translate that as

F**k off...*sshole

PS - That's going to be good for another loss of 3-5 points popularity

[rocket]

Hello All

I almost forgot. before I'd vote for French Cuisine as World Heritage, I'd vote for The French Kiss as universally recognized around the world.

[Robert Marchenoir]

Coming next: inflicting sexual insults upon journalists, Putin-like.

[Dominique]

The very same man is telling us we should bring back autority and politness to our kids at school. What an example!

"Don't touch me! Fuxx you!", "il m'a traité! Toi même!" "c'est celui qui le dit qu'il y est!"

This is how children talk nowadays. Sarko is definitly a child of May68. No hierarchy, everything equals everything. He just is the very opposite of what claimed he was during the campaign. I remember him saying that the president belongs to the people...and then spending his time on his private problems. I remember him saying that presidency was an asceticism, and then went on the yacht...

What a jerk! Quel toquart as De Pannafieu would say.

Regarding "losing his nerves", i am not sure we can say this. Jacques Chirac said once about Margareth Thatcher "Elle me casse les Couixxx!" in the middle of a eurpean summit, and noone said he lost his nerves. People even thought it what rather sympathetic.

The question is more about Sarko's view of basic people. The head of state looks down to the pepole and says : "pauvre con!". Just like Carla Bruni who said once "i don't like the french", Both look more and more as arrogant and selfcentered as Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. Sarko may claim the opposite and say that he talks like the people, but he is no longer "the people". Every time he now talks like "the people", he only appears like a arrogant, selfcentered president looking down at people with disdain.

I thought the man was smarter. That is not so difficult to understand.

The problem is also now the clear will of the press to have him down. One have to recognise that the french press is culturaly on the left. Marrianne, Canal+ etc... have nothig to tell about politics and only talk about the man : what he does, how he behaves, what is his watch etc, in the obvious goal of making him go and prove he is braindamaged. Their only goal is to prove that Sarko is not fit for the job, and they will do anything to prove they are right. Even if that means making him getting mad. This is the global emptiness of intellectual journalism nowadays. All living around, for, against, about every single word of Sarko.

[Dominique]

Sarko was right when he said May 68 was a failure : without it, we wouldn't have him as president!

[Dominique]

Sarko is so populist that he will probably say that he behaved as Zidane did during the football worldcup final with matterazi!

[Valentin]

I heard about this on radio this morning, and upon seeing the video, I'm dumbfounded. There's nothing of the punching and insulting they spoke about. There's no nastiness, no contempt, nothing offensive.
"pauvre con" is no more insulting than "poor sod" - unless we want to do some more Sarko bashing.
(how about the "je m'en fous" stuff we even hear on TV primetime journals - and we know what the verb fou**e means)

All media is interested in is shocking, negative stuff. Who cares about political programs, or Lisbon conference on the mini-treaty, when we have the latest sleazy picture of Britney Spears, the latest affair of Lady Di, or Sarko's Rolex. And if there is nothing, they just make it up.

[Valentin]

"An American would translate that as
F**k off...*sshole"

No Rocket, a normal English speaker, who doesn't hate the French, would translate it as :

"Get lost, you poor sod"

[azloon]

[the man on the left says (in ungrammatical French): "Don't touch me". Sarko replies: "Then get lost". The man: "You dirty me when you touch me". Sarko: "Then get lost, pauvre con."]

Sarko truly is ushering in an Era of Good Feeling in France.

Didn't CB once write here that the French don't like or trust each other?

a better example?

[Pierre Bernardi]

Good for Sarko.

Re: rugby. Il me semble que face à l'Angleterre, nous manquons toujours de mémoire. Témoin cette phrase du Monde: "Mais cette fois la défense anglaise avait préparé son affaire." Quand la défense anglaise n'a-t-elle pas préparé son affaire?

[belka]

Drawbacks...
The president used the video com' as a professional and also with a good instinct.
For the citizens are overwhelmed any detail counts, specifically the worst, and even the prime minister the "assistante" seems very popular as compared to the "Boss". Not because the PM more efficient but because he was kept behind the scene, out of the frame.

[LucaD]

Notre président never stops with his effets d'annonce. Unesco and all that.... we behave like a Third World country.

On the insults, exchange, the guy who insulted Sarko deserved to be put-down, but that should be for someone else. It's not the president's job to slang it out with offensive members of the public. Can you imagine in your wildest dreams de Gaulle, Pompidou, Giscard, Mitterrand or Chirac saying: "Alors, casse-toi, pauvre con" ?

[rocket]

Valentin

My feelings toward you are quickly turning into pity.

We don't even use the word "sod" in America. So if you think you know something about the English language and it's use. Please think again.

"There's nothing of the punching and insulting they spoke about. There's no nastiness, no contempt, nothing offensive."
............

[Emlyn]

Sorry to be pedantic but "Casse-toi, pauvre con!" is nothing like as strong as "Piss off, punk!" much less "F... off, a --h...!". "Push off, you twerp!" would be a much closer equivalent.What the man said to Sarkozy, on the other hand, was extremely insulting. The retort was well-deserved, in my view.

[I disagree, Emlyn. Pauvre con is much stronger than twerp and casse-toi is stronger than push off. "Push off you twerp" sounds like 1950s English schoolboys. Sarko's words were maybe not in the f-off a-hole range, but they were still a real insult. CB]

[Emlyn]

I'll add something else: I'm fed up with all this Sarkozy-bashing in the press: he's the best we've got at present and instead of griping the French have got to get behind him or else it will be "the fire next time" in 2112 when there will be really something to grumble about.

[Jorg Andersen]

All this dissecting language misses the point. The president of France is head of state. He shouldn't be pushing and shoving and exchanging abuse with farmers. It makes him look even more petit -- and that's another problem: every time they show Sarkozy in a crowd you see how little he is, despite the elevatr shoes. No wonder Carla Bruni has to hunch when she walks beside him. Ok I am being heightist....

[Joëlle]

Rocket, in England we use "sod" a lot, Valentin's obviously heard it used tons of times by us Brits. But before any of us criticise his use of English, we should check our own: "it's use"
"its"=possessive, "it's"=contraction of 'it is'...

[rocket]

Valentin

"There's nothing of the punching and insulting they spoke about. There's no nastiness, no contempt, nothing offensive."

So in that case Valentin

c*sse to* pa*vre c*n

[Donald]

Not only is it ridiculous for UNESCO to label a cuisine as a "world heritage cuisine", all of its labels will become meaningless over time. Why? Because there will be so many things over time with that label that it will lack distinction. Does the Taj Mahal or Chartres take on added lustre with this label? It is dificult to see what it adds. In any case, give the UNESCO label another 10 - 15 years to be put on more things and whatever value it is thought to have will be dissipated. If the French receive this label for their cuisine, then what about the Italians, the Chinese, the Indians etc. ? UNESCO cannot afford poltically to ignore these cuisines, and then where do they draw the line? It shouldn't have been started in the first place.

As far as protecting cultural sites, if a particular people do not value their cultural treasures, whatever they may be, no amout of labeling will protect them. Cultural values have to be passed down from one generation to the next. It was ever thus ...

[rocket]

Lest we forget this little gem.

http://tinyurl.com/25fh5r

In this one it appears that the President of France wants to get in a fist fight.

[Mike]

The French President just wants to be like everyone else and not a distant and haughty aristocratic figure above French politics.

Of course it's a different style from the previous Presidents, but Sarko did promise to change France for the better, and why not? On the other hand, he may have a drinking problem we don't know about. At any rate, if a man insults the President in public, he deserves everything he gets, and he should count himself lucky that he was only told to get lost.

[Romain]

I'd bet anything you will see banners with "casse toi pauvre con" in the next demonstration in France.
lol

[rocket]

Joelle

Thank you s'o much for the englis'h les'son ( I didn't capitalize englis'h!!! mein got im himmel)

But I think you are s'plitting hair's.

Again I repeat. We do not us'e sod in American englis'h. Much a's we don't us'e boot and bonnet and trous'ers are different a's are many word's's.

Also in American english we spell it "critcize" So what. Big deal

So what's your point?

But thank you so much for you concern.

PS - It's time to make a movie of Sarkozy who goes into Columbian jungles alone and rescues Ingrid Betancourt. In the process he takes down the entire FARC organization. ALONE!

[isobel]

For all non British readers of this blog, here's a clip of John Prescott, Deputy Prime Minister during Tony Blair's premiership showing the typical British "stiff upper lip" and dealing with an attack from a member of the public
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRQDnGTcc4A

[rocket]

I am literally outraged that Sarkozy should suggest that French food be included in world heritage. What about American food? The hamburger that we invented and propagated all over the world is much more important than any sauce infested French cuisine.

Please help us to make American cuisine world heritage.

http://tinyurl.com/39elbd

[rocket]

Excuse me but I spoke too soon

http://tinyurl.com/2cphb4

Now this is world heritage stuff

[Valentin]

Rocket, my dear Rocket, the point is that it is YOU who would read the line as " f**k off ", and that's because of yourself, your état d'esprit, your negativity, and, may I be allowed, your absolute lack of manners.
I'm glad British people here confirm what I myself knew from other Brits.

Don't be a poor sod Rocket, cheer up, life is not THAT bad.

[Romain]

French gastronomy does not need that kind of endorsement.As to American food i'd find American and gastronomy are contradictory in terms.
lol

[JeanD22]

I watch all this Anglo-Saxon arguing over our dear President. I think you are envious....

[alan morgan]

The president of France represents the country and should display at all times honor and respect for human dignity.
Sarkozy's remarks diminish this high office and expose him as an unwise man.
To respect and protect human dignity is the primary duty of all state authorities in whatever form. My respect for him has fallen so far that I heard it hit the floor.

[Marguerite.]

Les Italiens ne sont pas contents et pretendent qu'ils ont plus de specialites culinaires que les Francais.
Carla et Nicolas vont-ils vont-ils s'envoyer des tiramisus et des millefeuilles a la figure ?

[Romain]

@JeanD22
Even the Royals are overshadowed by Sarko's press coverage.
I think if he continues to fall in the opinion polls, he might find some oil deposit.

[Daniel Strohl]

DOMINIQUE,

“This is the global emptiness of intellectual journalism nowadays”.

You are perfectly right – but one should say “FRENCH intellectual journalism”. And the adjective “intellectual” is totally incongruous in this context!

But our super journalists may be steering full speed ahead into serious problems, as soon as the capitalists financing them will be really fed up with losing always more money used to manufacture always more “intellectual” garbage.

And what will then be the solution for our high nosed “scribouillards”? Go to Canossa (i.e. Hotel Matignon) to beg for subsidies. They should however know, as the Prime Minister and after him the President have already said, that “les caisses sont vides”. And I am not sure that the French will be mourning them if a few papers sink.

ISOBEL,

Very instructive link – as far as I know, the French press didn’t report this.

ROCKET,

Rocket prend son pied. Chacun le prend comme il peut – LOL!

CHARLES,

« but they were still a real insult. CB]

Yes, but what was he supposed to do? Tendre l’autre joue? I find the qualification “pauvre con” perfectly adequate – this would however not have been the case if he had said “sale con”, which is much more often used as a real and dirty insult.

JORG ANDERSEN,

“every time they show Sarkozy in a crowd you see how little he is”

Jorg, are intelligence and courage related to body height in Austria? Sarkozy is French, not Austrian – LOL!

[selpoivre]

@Robert Marchenoir : Chirac's exact quote about Thatcher was 'What does the housewife wants ? My b...s on a platter ?'.

Once again, Sarkozy is blurring the borders beetween private and public. Chirac could certainly be rude and crude at times, but always seemed to do so for political purposes (think of his clash with Israeli security in '96). Here, it seems that the only benefit for the presidential reply is it's author own private satisfaction.

Moreover, CB is right in pointing out Sarko's uneasyness with le terroir : everybody in France knows about it, and my bet is the French would have been less interested in the incident, had it occurred elsewhere. There is no vacuity in the french media here : identité nationale is at stake, not the CAP reform...

Sarkozy scored very well in the rural districts during the '07 presidential election. I wonder wether this could impact the municipales and cantonales elections in those areas. Now, city and 'general' counsellors are members of the french senate's electoral college, along with regional counsellors.

Could the UMP and Nouveau Centre lose the upper house ? That would seriously slow down the government's action - or lead to the use of '49-3' procedure, ie bypassing the parliament.

[Jollyswagman]

Well all I can add is that he won the election on a platform of 'la rupture' - now he's making good on his promise!

We've just elected a very nice clean-cut ex-fonctionaire to be PM of Australia but I am a bit envious of France.. Politics are so sanitised here it's rather boring -- a head-kicking Sarkozy figure (like we had in Bob Hawke or Paul Keating) would be fun!

[The 3rd Column]

About time Sarkozy defended himself -- what gave that bugger, that pauvre con, that twerp the right to insult another and thought he could get away with it?

He was lucky, he only received a verbal tirade -- someone else would have punched him on the nose.

[The 3rd Column]

Azloon writes: "Didn't CB once write here that the French don't like or trust each other?"

CB's 'critiques' of the French, including the one you said he did is part and parcel of his job -- if he writes negative things about the French and France, he has to do it -- it's his bread and butter. Besides he works for Murdoch and Murdoch is not enamoured of the French (nor of the Brits for that matter.)

You must understand that Brits have an inbred hostility against the French, it's almost visceral. The French haven't as much -- they are more nuanced and if anything at all, the French have great respect for 'les Anglais' when they deserve it (I know this because my family is Anglo-French.) And even if CB is not English, I'm sure he feels that respect in France. Not sure CB returns the compliment.

[Mary Fernandez]

"I'd bet anything you will see banners with "casse toi pauvre con" in the next demonstration in France."

Jeanne Cherhal just woke up to another hit!

BTW, I love Rocket's comments, if only for the bee he puts in everyone else's bonnet. :-)

[Mary Fernandez]

BTW, AFP translated the exchange this way:

MAN: "Oh no, don't touch me."

SARKO: (smiling): "Go away, then."

MAN: "You disgust me."

SARKO: (still smiling) "Go away, you bloody idiot,"

[Yes, but news agencies always water down bad language for general consumption. CB]

[Romain]

@Daniel Strohl
C'est un peu sévère d'utiliser l'expression "intellectual garbage" pour le journalisme français.
Il me semble que 'intellectual wank" serait plus appropriée.Ca traduit un peu mieux son indigence et sa paresse.lol

[Ros]

Carla's keeping very quiet - why didn't she go to the Salon de l'Agriculture? Maybe things would have been different ----

[Cyrille]

"You disgust me"? No way salir means to disgust. He said "you dirty me". In other words, AFP watered down Sarkozy's language and made the man's language much, much worse. Very balanced...

Anyway Emlyn, Sarkozy is not the best we can have now, but close to the worst possible person in France, if you were to pick a train coach at random chances would be more than 50% that there would not be a worse person for the job than Sarkozy in it.
And it is the man's absolute right to refuse to be touched by him, a man who, for example, just proved he didn't care about the constitution he is supposed to protect.
Sarkozy wants a photo op to show that everyone is happy to meet him and if you're not you're supposed to pretend? No way. I would always refuse to shake his hand, with the possible exception that I would be in a professional context (ie, not acting as me but as representing my company, if so instructed).
That gives no right to Sarkozy to go into insults. He's the one who made himself totally unrespectable and "dirtying".

[Emlyn]

Sorry to disagree, Charles, but the words Sarkozy used were not "a real insult" and were indeed "50s playground language", which was why I translated thelm the way I did. One needs to know a foreign language very well indeed to be able to judge the level of its insults.

[christopher muir]

I certainly agree with Alan Mprgan There's no doubt that Sarkozy is going much too far in his unconventional approach to high office. What's the point of it all?

Doubtless, in a day or two there'll be a new song sweeping the French airwaves called Casse-toi, pauvre con... Having read a recent Putin speech which was sprinkled with repetitive vulgarity, it looks like Sarkozy is following the Czar down the same path.

[colin grayson]

brits have an inbred hostility against the french ? having lived long term in both countries , I must say that is not at all my experience

my feeling is that the british have no respect for the french especially after their performance as allies in 2 world wars , think their cuisine is mostly hype or peasant food , and that they are untrustworthy politically , preaching about the EU whilst caring only about french interests

but Champagne or the style of french rugby ? well that's another matter altogether!!
personally I spend my time in rural france where the people gave their lives for france as cannon fodder in the first world war , fought in the maquis in the 2nd , eat REAL food from local production , think french cuisine with a capital C is hype , and have as much trust in french politicians as the british do!! not fools , are they !

[Daniel Strohl]

Romain,

Je retiens votre proposition - masturbation intellectuelle (et merci pour le mot anglais "wank" que je ne connaissais pas!).

Dans ma jeunesse, on disait que la masturbation rend aveugle. Il doit y avoir du vrai là-dedans - c'est sans doute la raison pour laquelle certains de nos journalistes ne relisent manifestement pas leur copie avant de la donner à imprimer - LOL!

Plus sérieusement, le "journalisme" à la française tel qu'on le voit dans certains journaux en ce moment a été parfaitement caractérisé par Dominique (qu'on ne peut souçonner d'être à la solde de Sarkozy - LOL!) dans le dernier paragraphe de son post du 24 FEV 13:15.

Bien sûr, ça fait vendre pour le moment, mais les gens finiront par se lasser. Je suis persuadé qu'une des raisons majeures de la défaite de la gauche à la présidentielle a été leurs critiques incessantes et souvent infondées et mesquines, qui ont fini par lasser beaucoup de gens raisonnables qui auraient peut-être voté à gauche si la gauche avait présenté les choses de manière plus positive et plus réaliste et si bien sûr, elle-même avait été un peu plus convaincue de la solidité de son programme ... On ne peut pas convaincre les gens si l'on n'est pas soi-même convaincu.

[Valentin]

"Yes, but what was he supposed to do? Tendre l’autre joue? "

He was supposed to keep smiling, look through that guy and pretend he doesn't see or hear him - and without muttering anything, of course. That's what most heads of state would have done. Only that's not his style, he's not above and beyond, he's descended into the arena and is receiving the coups.

A deliberate policy: under the 5th Republic, the Prime Minister is voted by the parliament, and quite vulnerable to criticism and attacks. Hence when things go complicate, he's the first in the line of fire.
The President is elected by universal suffrage and enjoys incomparable legitimacy and power. He can't be brought down - except by a lost referendum (thanks to Ch.de Gaulle's precedent).
So Sarkozy is getting in front and taking all the hits, and protects the government, knowing that he's practically invulnerable.
And, of course, he doesn't hold any referendum :)

[Little Big Horn]

"Sarko was right when he said May 68 was a failure : without it, we wouldn't have him as president!"
Very well said indeed!!!

It seems that winds are turning a little in this Conservatives' den. "L'Américain" is no more a media hero or an amazing illusion for little children, even a decent representative for tall persons. An empty appearence couldn't last a whole quinquennat, but I must say that the rightists are not very long "conservative" with their idols this time. They weaken quickly at reality's contact. To support a clown as King is pretty tiring I guess. (btw, does "Americain" still mean "Worse-President-Ever"?)

Besides there's worse than the vulgarity of Mr Pipole. We already knew that Sarko speaks with 500 words of vocabulary (the Johnny Hallyday of Politics) and "comme un charretier" in private.

As far as the presidential function is concerned, there is this natural lack of decency, of "tenue" (as we could say for instance about a soft paste cheese), like his latest visit in an elementary school, hands in the pocket, or worse, this:

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=FElV9v5prWM

"The most ruinous politicy, the most costly policy, is to be small".
Charles de Gaulle

.. who must be eating his military hat in his grave. Or maybe the rest of the Constitution...

[john o'doe]

And they want the Sarko-bashing to stop? How can it stop when he provokes it himself? How can it stop when he continues to show his disdain for the very people who were foolish enough to vote him into office? I was at a gathering of my French in-laws yesterday where the first topic of conversation was this farmyard incident. They see it as yet another blunder by a deeply disappointing president who will not have their vote again if he dares to seek re-election. On the evidence of the havoc he has wreaked in a few months in office, they are seriously worried about the damage he can do over 5 years.
Sarko - Beware the Ides of March.

[Romain]

@Valentin
Don't take it so bad.
This is an agricultural show, and you would expect some bullshit here and there, would'nt you?

[gisèle]

le mot "con" est bel est bien un insulte -
c'est un mot qui a pour équivalence en anglais le mot "c-nt"
il s'agit d'un mot souvent emprunté, dans les deux langues, par un homme pour insulter un autre homme
les mots: "con" en français et "c-nt" en anglais sont tous les deux des mots associés avec le sexe d'une femme
il est bien connu qu'entre "hommes" si on veut proférer le pire des insultes, on suggère qu'il est "féminin"
plus ça change . . .
je vous réfère au chapitre "la haine du c" dans le livre "Ainsi soit-elle" de Benoîte Groult.

Bien sûr personne ne tient plus compte du poids d'origine de ces mots, tous les deux ont été vulgarisés (!), banalisés, et passent de nos jours dans la bouche de tous sans réflection, mais ne devraient pas passer si facilement dans la bouche d'un homme d'état qui se donne le droit de rappeler aux enfants la valeur du respect de l'autre
le mot "con" est trop généreux pour appliquer à de tels hommes - "imbécile" s'applique plus facilement

[Valentin]

Gisèle,

Le mot "con" est un homonyme: selon contexte (eh ouais!) il peut signifier deux choses différentes: le sexe féminin, ou aussi bien designer quelqu'un comme imbécile, stupide. C'est ce dernier sens qu'est habituellement utilisé.
Vous pourrez vérifier cela dans n'importe quel dictionnaire de langue française.

Romain,
What actually bothers me, vous l'aurez compris, is rather the b***t I sometimes see here - and I'm not the only one, anyway :)

[Valentin]

John O'DOE : no need to generalize: somehow I doubt that the gentleman at the agricultural fair voted for Sarkozy 10 months ago :)

[azloon]

[The president of France .... should display at all times honor and respect for human dignity.] Alan Morgan

i'm surprised this simple notion of respect in reaction to insult isn't more evident in the many posts here. i can't imagine a british or american head of state 'taking the bait' as sarko did.

it presented an opportunity to stop and talk to this guy, to politely disagree after hearing his gripes, or to offer to speak with him privately later. if he remained hostile and threatening, sarko's security detail could easily have dealt with him.

all this of course would presume a level of tact and presence of mind that sarko does not seem to possess.

if sarko is modeling his presidency on other western examples -- to be more of a 'cowboy,' shooting from the hip, telling it 'straight,' he is missing a key ingredient, namely manners.

the only unmannered characters in cowboy movies are the drunken villains, intent on picking fights, trying to provoke gunplay. and those guys inevitably end up dead. a warning?

a real american cowboy president, whom sarko might emulate, was ronald reagan. he was known as the most mannered and collegial of presidents, always with a good word for his political adversaries, and a clever joke to lighten the atmosphere. and reagan never took himself too seriously.

he once said: "i've heard that hard work never hurt anyone but i figure why take the chance."

[Dominique]

Daniel Strohl,

"But our super journalists may be steering full speed ahead into serious problems, as soon as the capitalists financing them will be really fed up with losing always more money used to manufacture always more “intellectual” garbage."

I am afraid not quite. Capitalism (so called "capitalist financing" of yours) will always go in the direction of easy money : meaning vulgarity, narcicisme, cheap words, superficiality. The socalled journalist of Le Monde (Raphaelle Bacquet) is already into "France Dimanche" journalism. She says she is interested in "cognitive" analysis of Sarko's brain, but everything she want's to know about really is what he does with his kiki!

This is exactly why capitalism should not rule the world : it does drawns us all into mediocrity. One need to be able to say "no" to self drive (pulsion) in order to access education, work and finally access the very idea of quality. This, i am afraid, capitalism is not interested in.

The problem is that both capitalism and May68's individualism met! Both individual ideologies, once together, destroy any social value trying to constrain selfishness.

Sarko is only the result of this "be your true self" culture of ours nowadays. "I am president? so what? go to hell!"

[Dominique]

Next step will be : coup-de-boule-coup-de-boule when meeting on the G8!

Sarkozidane : the best of what France can produce.

[richard jones]

Just dropped a line to the UN chappee that's sitting in while the old chief tries to fix Kenya, suggesting that Welsh rugby for linguistic-cultural reasons is defended by UNESCO and asking for peace keepers on March 15th.
Until last Saturday I know many Englishmen were trying to get UNDP to support their rugby.

[gisèle]

"Le mot "con" est un homonyme: selon contexte (eh ouais!) il peut signifier deux choses différentes: le sexe féminin, ou aussi bien designer quelqu'un comme imbécile, stupide. C'est ce dernier sens qu'est habituellement utilisé."
*Valentin*
Oui, soit vous avez raison, la question qu'il faut poser est pourquoi un mot qui était à l'origine un mot désignant le sexe d'une femme EST DEVENU un insulte.
Je devine que vous n'avez pas un cerveau capable d'aller si loin dans le raisonnement nécessaire pour le voir ou l'admettre.
Je vous le dis simplement, le contexte d'usage habituel est dérivé du premier que vous avez cité.

So Sarkozy is getting in front and taking all the hits, and protects the government, ]

So he's a hero and a wise man.

[john o'doe]

He can't go on like this much longer. He can't be impeached, he won't resign so which member of the ruling clan sees himself as Brutus or the Graf von Stauffenberg ?

[Terry]

Protecting French cooking?

Again, another easy feel good "policy" to make it look like reform is being achieved.

I know Valentin say I am wrong.
But all I know and all I see is all my life will ever be.

[selpoivre]

"Yes, but what was he supposed to do? Tendre l’autre joue? "

Man in the crowd, yelling : 'Ar....le!'
President, shooting his hand : 'Glad to meet you. Chirac.'

@Dominique : not only is Sarkozy the result of the 'be your true self' culture, but that's the essence of his policy (imho pretty much like his rolemodels Reagan, Thatcher and Blair) : the main role of the State has become to help individuals fulfill their own desires. My safety, my health, my faith, whatever. Tout devient possible - and the possibilities are endless. Now, the end of l'intérêt général means the end of the very strong private/public distinction at the head of the french State. Desacralization is mandatory, for 'sans tabous' can only be achieved without totems.

The French should expect more of the same in the years to come.

[Daniel Strohl]

Dominique,

"I am afraid not" - Time will tell.

"will always go in the direction of easy money : meaning vulgarity, narcicisme, cheap words, superficiality"

I understand that you are speaking of the journalists you described so well in the last paragraph of your post dated 24 FEB 13:15. How come that they, with their highly elevated conscience, still accept to work for these ugly capitalists only interested in fast profits ?

"This is exactly why capitalism should not rule the world : it does drawns us all into mediocrity"

Ah - ha! What do you suggest to replace capitalism? Socialisme à la Fidel - now à la Raul? The latter has been elected today by the Cuban parliament with 614 votes out of 614 possible votes (i.e. 100% - VALENTIN, in another recent thread, you had foreseen a score, if I remember correctly, well over 90%. I am sorry to have to tell you that you were wrong - LOL!).

PS : if my hearing problems did not mislead me this morning (as it sometimes happens), the 614 members of the Cuban parliament are nominated, not elected. Ca, c'est de la démocratie avancée!

The problem with mankind is that there are only two (known) working methods to drive people : either with bajonets - in Cuba, they were fortunately most of the time buttoned - or luring them with money. In the latter system, there are a few variants. It is up to us to implement the best possible. But this supposes that we have an excellent school system, able to turn out educated and responsible citizens. I am afraid that there is still a lot of hard work to do ...

[Romain]

@Daniel Strohl & Dominique

Maybe we are focusing too much on national daily papres. As a matter of fact national daily papers have a small share of voice in France.
Most people read local papers like DNA,la Provence,le Courrier de Lyon etc. Mostly because they have no interest whatsoever in "parisian papers".
I believe the nbr.1 printed press group is "Ouest France" and "les Dernières Nouvelles d'Alsace" (DNA) is nbr.1 in terms of percentage of subscribers.
National Dailies are desperate since years, and they tend to compete with trash papers, hence digging the hole they already dwell in.

[sprtschk]

so, what do you think about this one?

" Get lost, Dumb Ass !"

[Valentin]

Gisèle,

Je n'ai pas eu le plaisir de vous connaître. Je m'abstiendrai donc de tout commentaire relatif à votre personne. Le dictionnaire Hachette dit là-dessus : ... B très familier Stupide, idiot.

Point.
Vous êtes libre de faire toutes les études étymologiques que vous voudrez et ainsi démontrer la supériorité indélébile de votre cerveau. Le fait est que c'est un usage très familier, certes pas recommandable, mais rien de plus.

[Valentin]

Terry,

You're right - from where you stand.
The trick is that the French happen to value a lot a thing called "art de vivre". You should come to France more often and take your time to experience it, that's all :)

[Marios]

If somebody insults you then you have the right to insult them back, regardless of your social status or position. I see nothing wrong with what Sarcozy did. What did you expect him to do?

[Dominique]

D.Strohl,

"How come that they (journalists), with their highly elevated conscience, still accept to work for these ugly capitalists only interested in fast profits ?"

--> Well, it just means we do not see the same reality. I don't think these journalists do have an "highly elevated conscience".

"Ah - ha! What do you suggest to replace capitalism? Socialisme à la Fidel - now à la Raul? "

--> I certainly did not suggest we should replace capitalism. I just said it should not rule the world. Do you think that capitalism only can rule the world? Why bothering with democracy, votes and elections then?

As a matter of fact, "ism" ideologies should not rule. Exept republicanism of course! ;)

[Dominique]

Marios,

"If somebody insults you then you have the right to insult them back, regardless of your social status or position. I see nothing wrong with what Sarcozy did. What did you expect him to do?"

Some people happen to believe differently.

Things like education and politness tells people not to answer to insults with insults. There is nothing like "the right to insult" in the civil code.

More, adults are examples to children and what people often try to do is to make the world a better place with talking instead of fighting. For example, when a six years old insults an other six years old, i usually tell him that this is not the right thing to do, and that grown-up people who disagree usually try to get along with proper words. I also tell them that knowing a lot of words and syntax allows people to tell more things and then avoid insults, and therefore violence.

Of course, one needs to be educated to understand such a way of thinking. Not sure Sarko does. Do you?

I would like to give Sarko a chance. Maybe no one ever told him the benefits of language as compared to feelings.

"Ok little Nicolas, this was not the right thig to do. When you feel upset by someone's words, you either should tell him with your own proper words, or just let it go. He is wrong anyway. If the guy becomes violent, then you just go to an adult person. I remind you that violence is forbidden at school."

Oups! who's the adult in charge of little Nicolas?

[rocket]

Dominique

"Do you think that capitalism only can rule the world? Why bothering with democracy, votes and elections then?"

How is capitalism incompatible with democracy and free elections? I'm Confus..ed

Somehow I liked Dominique better before, when he was a simple anti-Sarkozyste red and nothing more :) Now Dominique's positions get more and more sophisticated, along with his expression in English, and far more difficult to fight off.

As an example, his use of "be your true self" as a Mai'68 thing that would describe Sarkozy. He's making a confusion between libertarianism and straightforward honesty.

This is a theme very dear to French lefties today: Sarkozy, the fervent anti-'68arde, would actually prove to be a product of the very phenomenon he swore to combat.
As usually the case with French lefties, they bask in sophism.

For instance they presented Sarko's relationship with Carla Bruni as a model of "liberté des moeurs", freedom to do whatever one likes, even if contrary to respectable behaviour.
That's an obvious contortion of reality: Sarko divorced Cécilia, he fell in love with Carla, and he MARRIED her 4 months later. Or this is the old classical way. There is nothing of the narcissistic libertinage '68arde.

Now Dominique says Sarko is "being his true self", as opposed to traditional presidents. He would be disrespectful of standards and conformism, like any true '68arde.
This kind of logic is quite hard to prove wrong. The '68 logic of being true to oneself, opposing imposed conformism, has one big flaw: that of being selfish. That's the problem with libertarianism as a philosophy: childish, irresponsible narcissism, exaggerated focus on the individual and on his needs, his "rights", his "freedoms", way beyond what is normal and reasonably acceptable.

Sarko is not being a '68arde. Because he's not being Selfish, Dominique. He's honest, direct, genuine, but not for himself, not in order to win something for himself, but more like the anglosaxon kind of directness and cowboy kind of honesty: as in not being a hypocrite but telling you the truth to your face and doing precisely what he said, how he said it, which is why he was elected.
Azloon is right in his analysis, but he doesn't realize what and who Sarko is up against.

You, Dominique, are the perfect example of "intellectuels de gauche" gone wrong. Being capable of interpreting things this contorted way will not win the day - not as long as I am here :)

Valentin

[selpoivre]

Since when has 'straightforward honesty' - which is indeed a private virtue - become a public one ?

There is no genuineness here. Only impulses. Criminals', molossers', and Sarkozy's. And playing Le Môme won't get him a César.

[Valentin]

Honesty has become a public virtue since the generalization of political correctness et de la langue de bois both in politics and in society.

[John Gregory Flinn]

So Sarkozy has taken to insulting 'les gens' with some fruity phrases which may be defended as a sort of 'royal patois'.
I saw someone on TV claim that at last France had a true man of the people in Sarkozy, devoid of the 'monarchist aura' that previous presidents and senior figures aspired to.
He's becoming a parody of Robespierre but without the (actual)guilotine. Thus, the enemies he makes may live to exact their reprisals.

Someone said that his lifestyle makes him (and his entourage) a live candidate to appear on the Jeremy Kyle TV show in the UK.....!
(Note; this a program where misfits and serial womanizers bear their souls in front of an audience for ......)

Can he be impeached?

[Emlyn]

Gisèle, le mot "c*nt" n'est pas un équivalent de "con". Si vous ne me croyez pas, employez le mot en Angleterre - publiquement ou en privé (à part avec votre petit ami) et vous verrez les réactions.
That said, it is a pity that Sarkozy descended to the level of the ill-mannered lout who insulted him and that his all-too-memorable phrase is likely to be held against him for some time to come.

[Ros]

Well, the King has at least given an interview to Le Parisien - p://www.leparisien.com/home/info/politique/articles.htm?articleid=296085704 - a bit long to read but quite interesting---

[Daniel Strohl]

Many people are saying that Sarkozy should not have answered to the man at the Salon de l'Agriculture.

I am pretty sure that, if he had kept quiet, a big part of his bashers in the media would immediately have said :"Sarkozy didn't answer to a direct attack of the presidential dignity; this is intolerable. He is petty. We have a coward as head of state and commander in chief".

[john o'doe]

The biggest insult came from Sarkozy himself when he announced he could do nothing about 'le pouvoir d'achat' with 'Qu'est-ce que voulez que je fasse? Les caisses sont vides!'
That insult justified the reply 'Casse-toi, pauvre con'

[Valentin]

This whole psychodrama about a couple of muttered words someone watching the video unawarely would not even notice, is becoming ridiculous.
This is celeb' press style: stopping on anything that can be turned into a scandal, and pushing it on and on to maximize audience.

And Sarkozy never said there's nothing he can do about the purchasing power. He said he cannot give salary raises just like that, on the spot. He said the effects of his policies won't be immediate.
People stop on words like "les caisses sont vides", without making the minimum effort of remembering the rest of the phrase. Let's all yell slogans together then, and then what else? Let's ask for impeachments, revolutions, que le people se soulève à la défense de la République! and why not, a nuclear hit on the Elysée palace! Please W, please, do SOMETHING about the impolite French tyrant!

[Dominique]

John Greg Flinn says :

"I saw someone on TV claim that at last France had a true man of the people in Sarkozy, devoid of the 'monarchist aura' that previous presidents and senior figures aspired to".

I believe the very opposite. The truth is that Sarko is behaving like a brat, believing his own problems are France's problems. He is only talking about himself and believes he is talking about France. Such a narcissist man is clearly in the continuation of french monarchy : "l'état c'est moi" used to say Louis XIV.

For exemple, Sarko said yesterday that France lost morale along with religion. I believe that this is HIS problem, not ours. He claims he is a catholic, but divorces two times and gets married three. His wife is now naked all over the internet. I don't care, but i understand that he is clearly not in accordance with his catholic ideology. He therefore claims "France lost morale". Well, not quite, actually HE did, we did not.

Sarko believes he incarnates France, juste like the kings did.

This very idea of having to show in order to not being blamed for hidding is clearly the monarchy culture : people use to check if the King did really have sex with the queen in order to know if the mariage was "consommé". We are not very far from this nowadays. Maybe we'll have very soon a daily report about his holly poo in order to know if he is still in good health ...

More, as reason (la raison) clearly disapeared from our headlines thanks to failed journalists, politicians need now to communicate with gestures. It is becoming now important for a minister to show he was invited on the WE by the president in order to show they are in touch. More journalists analyse wether the president does touch Angela Merkel or not, and it is becoming politically meaningfull. Smiles, words, habits, watches, costumes, all of this is becoming a way to make politics. All of this does have a name : we are rebuilding the very idea of "étiquette".

Unfortunatly, we'll won't see Sarko look like this, with all the "attributs du pouvoir" (couronne, sceptre, main de justice etc...).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Louis_XIV_of_France.jpg

He does have more modern attibuts : sun glasses, mobilephone and Carla Bruni.

We did have in the past already politicians showing of their private lives for political reasons : they were called kings and emperors.

This was not the case with either DeGaule, Pompidou, Giscard, Mitterand nor Chirac. This is comming back with Sarko. The rupture he wanted is bringing us back to the monarchy culture : "I am my political project". Once again, he believe he incarnates France, juste like the kings did.

So, as a matter of fact, Sarko is not "devoid of the 'monarchist aura', he is clearly rebuilding it all around himself.

I am sorry Valentin, but i believe you are the one who does not see the light.

[azloon]

[the media would immediately have said :"Sarkozy didn't answer to a direct attack of the presidential dignity; this is intolerable. He is petty. We have a coward as head of state and commander in chief"] Daniel

Daniel, oh pleeeeeeeeeez !!!

are you joking? i know you feel you must defend sarko against the considerable amount of bashing that occurs on this board, BUT you've gone 'overboard' with this assertion (as a former sailor, you know this is a bad thing :)

if he had ordered this guy arrested and 'waterboarded,' would he have been perceived as a decisive president, willing to take any action necessary to uphold the authority of the presidency? that seems the logical extension of your assertion.

you credibility as a defender of sarko would be well-served if you would, from time to time, be willing to even modestly criticize his incivility.

Bullies, and sarko IS a bit of a bully, don't command respect. they are ridiculed for what they are -- insecure individuals who don't trust their power and authority, and thus must exercise it in inappropriate ways. they may be feared, but never respected. and those bullied usually will look for ways to retaliate.

[Terry]

Dominique said:

"This is exactly why capitalism should not rule the world : it does drawns us all into mediocrity."

As Michael Corleone said, "Everytime I get out, they draw me back in."

Capitalism, mon ami, is merely when the means of production are owned privately. Is that what you are against, Dominique?

Also, whether you prefer socialism, capitalism or trading with beads, you are not immune to the Laws of Economics as set forth by Adam Smith. Dominique, why dont you take a trip to Venezuela and visit your local store there to get a taste of what socialism leads to. Wait, you dont have to- here's a link. This is what happens when you let GOVERNMENT set prices.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e0d7320e-7e39-11da-8ef9-0000779e2340.html

[Valentin]

Daniel's post is related to how things go in France, Azloon. That's why I said that your analysis is correct - in principle. You just fail to see za Frentch context. That's all.

Sarko's behaviour has nothing of that of a bully. There's no proof ever of an attempt to impose himself by violence of any kind. His reactions are in response to insult, to stupidity, to leftwing misrepresentation and hypocrisy, never in the arbitrarily aggressive way of a bully.
It's like I would call you a bully for the way you reacted to what you perceived as "aloof" or "brainiac" in my posting last year.

Dominique,

You simply go on with truth contortions, ill-willed interpretations and bashing.
Just think about this: what ever Rocket or Azloon might blame GW Bush for, you'll never ever hear them say something of that sort.
Rightwing people in France, no matter what they had against Mitterrand, they never went so far.
Like all true leftie, you bash your own president, and prefer the misfortunes of your own country, as long as your camp is not in command.
And then we wonder why the Anglos don't have much consideration for the French. Duh.

[selpoivre]

Well, Le Parisien now states that the 'repentance' bit of today's interview had been ...written by the Elysee. And that the presidential comment upon the case, far from being as apologetic as published this morning, was actually 'quand on me cherche on me trouve'... a rather plain version of 'gather thistles, expect prickles'.

Honesty is indeed a lonely word.

[Valentin]

I still remember the storm provoked in England by prince Charles in 2005.

"The gaffe was made by Prince Charles, who was overheard referring to reporters as "bloody people" and noting, in particular, that he could not bear the "awful" Nicholas Witchell, the BBC's royal correspondent."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4396515.stm

How about President Bush Himself addressing the British PM with a resounding "Yo Blair!".

If I look, I'm sure I'll find something on Her Majesty Queen :)

Moral: these people are human too.

[gisèle]

"Bullies . . . don't command respect. they are ridiculed for what they are -- insecure individuals who don't trust their power and authority, and thus must exercise it in inappropriate ways. they may be feared, but never respected. and those bullied usually will look for ways to retaliate." *Azloon*

Ah, que c'est TRES bien dit!

[Dominique]

Valentin,

I am only doing a cold analysis of what is going on. I am very sad of what happens to the french presidency and i blame both, the president and the stupid journalist taken in a deadly mirror game. Both Sarko and the press are locked into a dangerous "Sarko obsession", interrested in Sarko's behavior only.

But the result is this one : political analysis now goes through behavior analysis, and the president now communicates using his own behavior. I don't like it, i just describe the reality. And that is exactly what mornachs communication is about : "look at me and you'll know it all".

Believe me, i'd prefere things to be different, and see people using words to make politics instead of childish comments about his watch, his bad taste or his latest "c'est pas moi c'est lui!". But lets face the reality : all journalist now make analysis on the basis of how he behaves. And that is not only in France, but everywhere so.

I am spending one month in Berlin right now (hello D.Strohl! looking at german schools rght now!) and i am surprised to see that german news papers also write an incredible amount of trash news about Sarko every morning. And this even in serious papers. The Neuily affair made more than the latest Obama victory. Even in Germany, journalists are getting mad and obsessed with Sarko.

Terry,

"Capitalism, mon ami, is merely when the means of production are owned privately. Is that what you are against, Dominique?"

Not quite my dear Terry. I said :
"This is exactly why capitalism should not rule the world : it does drawns us all into mediocrity."

I will translate it with your own words for you to understand ;) "
"This is exactly why the idea that means of production must be owned privately should not rule the world : it does drawns us all into mediocrity."

Is that better? Should "rain production" be owned privatly? "air production"? word production? tree production? baby production? army? space shuttle? election production? Law production? etc..

Come on Terry, you can understand

[Daniel Strohl]

Azloon,

"i know you feel you must defend sarko against the considerable amount of bashing that occurs on this board"

Not on this board, Azloon, but in (many if not all) French media - fortunately for you, you are far away from them and from their readers sending posts full of hate and, of course, most of the time anonymous. On est courageux, mais pas téméraire(s).

I think that Charles' blog is widely read by French journalists - at least by those having a reasonable command of English. May be that some of them do even read the commentaries we make - if this is the case, I hope they have got my message - ceux qui sont visés se reconnaitront.

Of course, Sarkozy is not perfect. Only you, (Azloon), and me (Daniel) are perfect - LOL!

[Thanks Daniel. Perhaps you have noticed that the morning revue de la presse on France Inter and especially Europe 1 and RTL sometimes pick up this blog while quoting it as "le Times de Londres" rather than a blog. CB]

[azloon]

Daniel -- i am not so sure about you. :o)

[isobel]

Mind you - just when you thought you were fed up with Sarkozy, Segolene Royal pops up on the news at 8pm and you realise that maybe he wasn't such a bad choice (given the alternative).If I understood correctly she suggested improving the "pouvoir d'achat" by reducing the level of VAT on foodstuffs.I'm not an expert, but I was under the impression that there were european regulations concerning the levying of VAT - national governments can't just raise and lower the rate as and when it suits them. Also she said that the cashiers in supermarkets are badly paid - agreed - but what can she do about it?!

[Robert Marchenoir]

In retrospect, I agree Sarkozy has gone a bit overboard.

"Cassez-vous, Monsieur pauvre con" would have been more fitting for the president of a great nation such as France.

Daniel, the Chirac + b...cks remark was not mine, but I had a good laugh nonetheless with your corection about the housewife and platter.

Chirac was stupid, but funny. Or the other way round.

[V]

On the Canal+ Grand Journal this evening:
former president Jacques Chirac, to a cameraman accidentally poking his head with the microphone: " eh me*de ! " :)

Truth be told, he apologized afterwards, in stark contrast to Sarko, who said: "si on me cherche, on me trouve!" LOL

[Dominique]

Sarko, the journalist and the political analyst find....a BALL!!

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=CFUudxSLBCg&feature=related

[Daniel Strohl]

AZLOON,

Regarding "my going overboard" - LOL! (Fortunately, I am not bad at swimming .))

I wrote: "a big part of his bashers in the media would immediately ...etc"

You have transcribed this with: "[the media would immediately have said :"

To me, it seems that there is a semantic difference between my original version and your transcription of it.

If you don't see it, may I suggest you to buy new glasses? This would also help you to find more easily punctuation signs on your keyboard - LOL!

Seriously, Azloon, may be I have exaggerated a little bit, but not really, if one makes an extrapolation of the stupidities and of the pathological hatred that one reads and hears since weeks.

CHARLES,

Si je continue de taper sur (une partie) des journalistes français, je serai cité comme le "mauvais petit canard de Colmar" dans les revues de presse consacrées à la défense des médias injustement attaqués par des lecteurs irascibles -LOL.

ROMAIN,

"Most people read local papers like DNA"

DNA is an excellent paper. They have many subscribers who are more interested in local news and/or in important events rather than in overintelligent "parisianisms" or "boboisms" or "Sarkozeries".

I know by name the other local papers you mention, but had never the opportunity to read them up to now.

[azloon]

[Just think about this: what ever Rocket or Azloon might blame GW Bush for, you'll never ever hear them say something of that sort.] Valentin

oh, bullshit, mon ami.

i have referred to Bush as a moron more than a dozen times on this blog, and ranked him as likely the worst president in u.s. history.

what more do you want?????????

tell you that he beats his wife?t that he has bad breath?

Vous affichez un grand nombre de mots ici. S’il vous plaît essayer d'être précis.

[azloon]

I find it interesting that 'righties' here feel the need to defend and justify Sarko's most objectionable, immature behavior.

Valentin and Daniel suggest that this is because 'in the context of europe/france' Sarko is under such seige that he needs no more 'piling on.' and that since this barrage of criticism is basically an attack by the political left, it has no merit.

may i offer another interpretation?

how about: THAT HE DESERVES A LOT OF THE CRITICISM HE IS GETTING??

isn't THAT a novel idea???

i am a fan (of sorts) of sarko, and think his 'new approach' is needed in France. but this guy acts like a total asshole sometimes.

he has intimated on occasion that he sees himself as a sort of French John F. Kennedy.

surely, he jests.

JFK had more 'class' in his little finger that sarko has in his entire body. 'class' has nothing to do with wealth, social status, or education. it's about human dignity and the way one behaves towards his/her fellow human beings. sarko scores miserably in this category.

you won't see Barack Obama or John Mccain belittling their fellow citizens -- even given the most extreme provocation. they've got class.

sarko can represent himself as a welcome change from his predecessors in many other ways besides acting like a complete jerk.

[Romain]

Dominique

I find your link quite relevant, and recreational.

[Valentin]

Azloon, we're not justifying "objectionble behaviour", but we're calling it human behaviour, nothing more.

Everybody can have "objectionable" behaviour when faced with aggresion. One can ignore it, or react to it. In my link above you could see Prince Charles of Britain reacting the same way about those "bloody people", and the same for Jacques Chirac. No one accused them of 'immaturity' or 'lack of dignity', 'being a jerk', or a 'bully'. You're just taking the view that's served to you.

When I say you don't see the French context, I mean the attacks Sarko's exposed to from a truly vicious left, but not only. I also mean the whole atmosphere in France, which is not at all that in the United States.
Like I said, of course Sarko would have done better to ignore the interpelation and play the grand figure. I'm telling you he deliberately chose to be one of the people, go amongst them, confront them, put himself on their own level.
Obama never had to do that, but when you're in the middle of a crowd of hostile leftwing union members for instance, you risk being insulted. If you play the Grand Figure, they'll mock you. When he did that with some transport workers, they refused to shake his hand, stood up to him, yelled at him right in his face. Some people even fear the moment someone will go physical. That's the risk with such a strategy, and I cant even imagine the security problems that poses, for instance.

In short, your analysis is logical in general, but to me, given the context, it sounds quite superficial.

(yes you said stuff about Bush, but there's a world of difference between what you said and the way you said it, and what we hear from French lefties here; and may I add that you're the only american having done that anyway - so I'll put you in the weird-bird category, while where at it :) )

[rocket]

Valentin

"Obama never had to do that,"

Chuckle chuckle. What do you know about the African American minority in the United States and what they go through. They have had to go through much more than the soft fluff Sarkozy had to listen to at the Salon de L'agri

Just yesterday there was an incident

http://www.700wlw.com/pages/onair_willie.html

Click on watch the video.

I am sure Obama will conduct himself as a gentleman rather than being overcome by revengeful get even emotions as was Sarkozy

and what about this from a few days ago.

http://tinyurl.com/2eeacj

[Lily]

"Ah - ha! What do you suggest to replace capitalism? Socialisme à la Fidel - now à la Raul? " (Daniel Strohl)

Is there only capitalism à la Sarko – or else socialism à la Royal? Doesn’t France have any other option?
Can it be that the resistance to support Sarko would automatically imply a favourable attitude towards socialism?

Many bloggers here supported Sarko during the presidential election campaign and might still favour him over Royal if they had to choose between those two today – or else might abstain from voting. Yet, many criticize Sarko for many valid reasons.

I do not understand why Sarko supporters back his errors or bad manners, only because he already finds abundant criticism from the opposition.

There is not only a pro-Sarko position, including pro-capitalism, pro-change, pro-economy, etc. or else socialism à la Royal.

There was an interesting debate on European Tribune (sorry, Terry). It was said that presidential candidates promised constitutional changes that would diminish their powers but they usually didn’t follow through.

Further, it was said that it was VITAL to have parliamentary elections follow a different timescale in a presidential system. Otherwise, the demise of cohabitation would become ‘essentially fact’ and control over a powerful presidency be diminished. Someone called this “a worrying revelation which should become a cornerstone in the argumentation for change.”

Another debater was asking whether there were any voices in France for a move towards a parliamentary-only system where the Prime Minister would be the top dog and the President ceremonial.

Very interesting ideas and questions, IMO which led on to a debate about the 6ème République and Arnaud Montebourg’s “Convention pour la 6ème République C6R”.

This has made it clear to me why I always get so upset about Monsieur le Président’s decisions. HE is the decision maker. I have grown up in a parliamentary system and learnt that laws - the basis for change - are made in Parliament. The government, headed by the head of state, will then execute said laws.

In France, in a presidential system, it seems compulsory to have parliament back the president. This explains why it seems ‘natural’ in France to desire a strong decision-maker for President because it is HIS job. This system by its very nature confides nearly monarchical powers to the president.

“He is only talking about himself and believes he is talking about France. Such a narcissist man is clearly in the continuation of french monarchy : "l'état c'est moi" used to say Louis XIV.” (Dominique)

The president is really only doing his job. He is filling it out duly. Why are so many upset or surprised?

Fillon says that there was no reason to have given him a higher approval rating than Sarko because he (Fillon) was only executing the decisions that Sarko made.

The Sarko persona reveals more about the French presidency than he had certainly planned to. Less shining (shrill?) personalities might not have brought this to the light.

He may give reason to install a 6ème République. The debate on European Tribune had this interesting idea, that the present moment might be the right one to launch the Republic of the next generation.

Sarko’s approval rates are sinking – and it was suggested that Sarko be brought down by a strong faction within his own UMP, e.g. led by de Villepin – in order to introduce a new area in French constitutional history.

Call these ideas leftist, anyone; to me this looks more like an overdue completion of French revolutionary efforts.

“… the French context, I mean the attacks Sarko's exposed to from a truly vicious left, but not only. I also mean the whole atmosphere in France…” (Valentin) – Valentin must be talking of the pre/post revolutionary atmosphere :)

If Sarko has so many problems pushing through his reforms, this is because people by their (lazy) nature don’t want change. This isn’t “French”; it is human nature. If French citizens were more involved in the change process which would be the case in a true parliamentary system, citizens would accept change more easily and more naturally.

[Lily]

Here it is again : The president decides (« suggests ») and his ministers implement his suggestion. I wonder why the president’s decision is called “proposition” but I guess it is because ministers and experts will have to elaborate on the details of the final decision.

The government doesn’t decide on the whether or not. The government’s task is the “mise en oeuvre”. The parliament’s task seems to be the blessing of the president’s decisions.

Simone Veil doesn’t agree with the whole idea – but what can she do? She will at least have some say on the how.

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/afp/20080227/tts-histoire-juifs-education-primaire-sa-c1b2fc3_1.html :
« PARIS (AFP) - Le ministre de l'Education Xavier Darcos réunit mercredi notamment Simone Veil et Serge Klarsfeld pour lancer la réflexion sur LA MISE EN ŒUVRE DU SOUHAIT DE Nicolas Sarkozy que chaque enfant de CM2 se voie "confier la mémoire" d'un enfant mort dans la Shoah….
Outre Simone Veil, très vivement opposée à l'idée du président de la République, sont conviés…
…qui permettront de LA MISE EN PLACE A RENTREE 2008 DE LA PROPOSITION du président de la République

[Emlyn]

What Sarkozy really should have employed is the Royal Method: you will remember that during the campaign she got two of her bodyguards to bash in the car of a heckler. Thus she was able to remain Serene and Clean.

[azloon]

[yes you said stuff about Bush, but there's a world of difference between what you said and the way you said it, and what we hear from French lefties here] Valentin

i really don't know what you mean by 'how (i) said it.' if i say it, i say it.

do you mean that i don't truly hate bush and wouldn't publicly insult him? if so, that's true. i respect the office of the presidency, and the 'will of the people,' however misguided i feel that is sometimes. apparently this is not the situation in France.

i guess you are acknowledging that u.s. public discourse is more civil and respectful than is France's.

it's a bit curious that the u.s., in many respects quite a violent place, has a higher level of civic discourse than does France.

[Lily]

The official site of the "Convention pour la 6ème République":

http://www.c6r.fr/

[Terry]

Dominique said:

"Is that better? Should "rain production" be owned privatly? "air production"? word production? tree production? baby production? army? space shuttle? election production? Law production? etc..

Come on Terry, you can understand"

Who can argue with this logic?

[Dominique]

Lily,

I believe you are being not very well informed. In France as in the UK, Gemarny, US etc..., the parlement votes the law, not the president. Plenty of president's project is just not taken into account if the parlement doesn't want to. Simone Veil is a good exemple. What will happen is just the opposite of what you say : Sarko's project about "jewish kid's memory" will just not be implemented. She already explained that they are thinking of an entire class working on the specific situation of a particular city during the holocaust. Same with Attali's report. Sarko would probably dream of implementing it, he just can't. The parlament already said no. Same for the Grenelle de l'environnement : plenty of announcements, but the parlement will have the last word, and unfortunatly the lobbies are already deconstructing the entire project. The parlement has the last word. Same with the constitutional court who just claimed no law can be "retroactive". Sarko may try something else, but the constitutional court will have the last word. Same with Neuilly, Sarko wanted Martinon, but people from Neuilly just wanted something else.

And that is one of Sarko's problem : he believes he can, but he just ...can't. This idea about the french president being alone in deciding for everything is just, once again, a very short journalist's analysis. The french president is powerfull, but he is just not almighty as described in the ill-informed press. The parlement is always free to back his projects or not. If they vote laws they do not want, they just need to blame themselves and not the president.

When you quote me saying “He is only talking about himself and believes he is talking about France. Such a narcissist man is clearly in the continuation of french monarchy : "l'état c'est moi" used to say Louis XIV.”

then you repply "The president is really only doing his job. He is filling it out duly. Why are so many upset or surprised?"

--> Not quite. The problem is not the function nor it's power. It is about Sarko not being able, or not willing to distinguish between himself and his function. The very idea of "i do what i am, i am what i show" is just a big ripoff. There is nothing such as transparency (no where) and claiming it is just fooling people. Politics is about projects, not about "being".

So, his problem is probably more this one : he would like to be almighty. But he is not. Typical 5 years old behavior.

You claim :"I do not understand why Sarko supporters back his errors or bad manners, only because he already finds abundant criticism from the opposition."

Agree! Neither do I! That's probably because neither are they able to distinguish between the man and the function, his behavior and his political project. Typical monarchist supporter!

--> That was for you Valentin ;))

[Maggie G]

Heard on the radio that someone once shouted "Connard!" at Chirac.

Chirac smiled a huge smile, answered "Chirac!", and shook the guy's hand.

[Anna]

Alan Morgan, couldn't agree more and eloquently put. When one of the CFDT workers refused to shake Sarko's hand during the SNCF strikes Sarko ignored him and walked on. End result - the CFDT worker caused the shock, not the country's president.

[Dominique]

The legend says :

De Gaulle once faced a citizen who claimed "MORT AUX CONS!". He answered : "Vaste programme..."

That was when presidents were educated and were able to take a distance.

[rocket]

Terry

"Who can argue with this logic?"

1. Take bottle of Whisky
2. Pour Glass and drink it down
3. Pour Glass and drink it down
4. Pour Glass and drink it down
5. Pour Glass and drink it down
6. Pour Glass and drink it down
7. Pour Glass and drink it down
8. Pour Glass and drink it down

Repeat action
Repeat action
Repeat action
Repeat action......

You may then begin to understand the logic. LOL

[Lily]

"I believe you are being not very well informed."

Dominique,

This seems to be the case.

What are these people on the C6R website talking about? C6R wasn't invented by the press. Just have a look at the front page article of their site.

Then, if the French parliament is so powerful, as you claim, why doesn't Sarko say something like "it has been decided" (in Parliament!) or "I suggest that...". No one can give promises 'if he doesn't have any control over the final decision. Why doesn't his majority in parliament support his decisions, if this is the case?

This is confusing.

Valentin and Daniel are happy because Sarko has already begun with his reforms. You say he cannot go forward with reforms.

Ca ne colle pas. Is there any logic to this?

[Daniel Strohl]

ROBERT,

I am flattered that you quoted me as having corrected the sentence of Chirac, his b.... and the platter.

However, it was not me, but SELPOIVRE. Il faut rendre à César ce qui appartient à César (I don't know the proper English expression – however, in outdated German, it is "Gebt dem Kaiser, was des Kaisers ist"). This brings me to:

DOMINIQUE,

"I am spending one month in Berlin right now (hello D.Strohl! looking at german schools rght now!"

Dominique, this is surely an interesting trip! The Germans too have school problems, if I believe some articles I have read in "spiegel on line". May be you could give us some of your impressions when you are back. I think everybody on the blog would appreciate.

I have never visited Berlin. Of course, I know the Black Forest region and Freiburg (the favourite city of Mme Voynet!), which are close to Colmar where we live. I know also rather well Munich and southern Bavaria from the time I was in professional activity. I guess that the Berliner and the Münchner are as different as the Lillois and the Niçois…

May be we will make it up to Berlin some time in the future. My (approximate) knowledge of the Bavarian dialect (region of Rosenheim) will probably not help much up in the North!

PS: when you will be back from Berlin, you will be entitled to say: “Ich bin ein Berliner” – the copyright of this famous formulation (1963) has already been lifted…

LILY,

"If French citizens were more involved in the change process which would be the case in a true parliamentary system, citizens would accept change more easily and more naturally"

This is a somewhat imprudent statement, IMHO. France (and me too – LOL!) lived under the IV.th République (1945-1958) in a true parliamentary system. To summarize the situation at the time, it was a mess (le bordel). The mean lasting time of any government was may be 6 to 12 months - the situation was comparable with the political situation of Italy nowadays, but fortunately however without Berlusconi (LOL!). Nevertheless, we had a few Ersatz Berlusconi’s (but mostly on the left).

May be young Montebourg and some of his (older and more experienced?) colleagues should have a look at history books and papers (as well as at statistics regarding the French economy and industry) from that time and think it over twice before proposing to go back to such a system, which may work reasonably well in Germany and Northern countries, but not in France.

If you have some difficulties to believe me, Lily, try to imagine Schivardi, Besancenot, José Bové and their rightist equivalents at the Assemblée Nationale (élue au système proportionnel intégral!) trying to run the country, each of the above gentlemen heading a political party. It would not be an “Ampelkoalition”, but a Kaleidoscopkoalition! Merci, j’ai déjà donné!