Sarkozy, the Cécilia version

Keeping up with the Sarko saga has become a full-time job this week, blotting out lesser events. With the dust settling after Tuesday's Elysée show, here's an update on the two strands, the high-minded and the soap opera, which gets more lurid by the day.

Sarkozy has made a bit of a fool of himself by claiming that he was misunderstood and back-tracking on some of his shock announcements, such as the end of the 35-hour work week. But first the soap opera, which is what the people want, according to Sarkozy. .

For yesterday's episode, in which Carla Bruni, his new paramour, has allegedly moved into the Elysée and upset the Prime Minister, read here. In today's episode, Cécilia, the ex-wife, has shot back onto the stage with a book in which she demolishes the head of state as a mean-spirited womanizer who has been behaving in a reckless and unseemly way since she left him in October.

"Nicolas est un sauteur ," Cécilia tells Anna Bitton, the author, a journalist on Le Point magazine who is, or more likely was, a close friend. "Nicolas is miserly... a man who loves no-one, not even his children...He has a ridiculous side. He is not worthy. He doesn't behave like the president of the republic. He has a real behaviour problem."
   
As I write, Cécilia's lawyers are in the Palais de Justice trying to get an order banning publication of Bitton's book, called Cécilia. But the extracts are out in news magazines and on the air and Bitton says she cannot understand why her friend suddenly wants it blocked. The last time that the former Mrs Sarkozy told her story to a journalist for a book, Sarko stepped in to halt publication. That was just after she returned to him in 2005 after her 10-month absence with Richard Attias, an events-organiser.

Bitton's book confirms that Cécilia left Nicolas in October in order to return to Attias. "Richard is the person whom I have loved the most in my life. I do not think that I ever loved before him," the former first lady is quoted as saying. But Attias will not have her back yet because he does not trust her. And so on.... Two other Cécilia books have appeared this week, but neither gives her version like Bitton's.

This apparent settling of accounts by the ex-wife balances the picture of Sarko the abandoned husband and it is being greeted as fair game for a president who decided to break with decorum and flaunt his love life to the nation. The obvious backlash against his exhibitionism is starting to be felt. Jean-Marie Rouart, a member of the Académie Française, warns him in today's Sarko-friendly Paris Match to be careful of "mixing genres".  "When you are president... the idea of private life does not exist. The president must give himself entirely to his office," he said.

The president's fans are congratulating him for a visionary performance on Monday, when he outlined his plans for achieving a new "Renaissance" in France. Le Figaro gushed that Sarko had set course for a French version of  President Kennedy's New Frontier. 

But his new "policy of civilisation", a doctrine invented by Edgar Morin, a leftwing philosopher, is more widely seen as an attempt to change the subject after failing to achieve the promised bounce that his election was supposed to give the economy. Le Monde attacked Sarko coming up with a new vehicle for his "magical thinking".

Sarko's -- or at least Morin's -- idea is to focus on national well-being rather than wealth, or quality and not quantity. Everything in government is connected, Sarko argued, borrowing from Tony Blair's old doctrine of "joined-up government". Blair is, by the way, turning up on Saturday to offer advice as as a guest at a conference held by Sarkozy's UMP party.   

Sarkozy has muddied the picture by claiming he was misunderstood when he said he aimed to scrap the 35-hour working week this year.

His fondness for sweeping proclamations has also landed him in trouble with the broadcasting world. His scheme for ending advertising on state television is deemed unworkable and a gift to his friends who own the main commercial stations. His out-of-the-blue announcement of an end to the English language service of France 24 has been greeted with dismay. Bernard Kouchner, the Foreign Minister, said he disagreed and Sarkozy's staff have started watering down the idea, calling it merely a proposal (Thank you to the France 24 staffer who commented on the last post).

François Hollande, the Socialist leader, has been busy attacking Sarko today as a would-be Louis XIV, who confuses the state with his own person.  "President Show-off makes us all voyeurs whether citizens, state officials or journalists," he said. . 

I can hear people saying 'Enough Sarko'. I promise other ground next time.

Comments

[azloon]

re: 'enough sarko' -- your remark

CB, if your were covering a war, would you suddenly stop filing stories because you thought you were boring readers, or they had heard enough?

the sarkodrama is a culture war within france. you are a war correspondant. for those outside france, and not fluent in french, you're "it." don't abandon us.

i suspect your apologies are cosmetic, and we don't have to worry that you've given up on this ongoing saga. :)

[Valentin]

CB : "...by claiming that he was misunderstood and back-tracking on some of his shock announcements, such as the end of the 35-hour work week"

Come on Charles, I hate to be pernickety and be qualified as a Sarko diehard again, but you were there, you must have heard the question as we did, "la fin, du moins réelle, des 35 heures".
La question ne concernait pas la durée légale du travail, mais l'application des 35 heures.

[qwerty]

Full of contradictions, Cecilia (love him, love him not). Nicolas too... Alain Minc finds him "extraordinairement complexe", like his predecessors. But what's in complexity? The following:

"ANOTHER STARTLING CONCLUSION FROM the science of consciousness is that the intuitive feeling we have that there's an executive "I" that sits in a control room of our brain, scanning the screens of the senses and pushing the buttons of the muscles, is an illusion. Consciousness turns out to consist of a maelstrom of events distributed across the brain. These events compete for attention, and as one process outshouts the others, the brain rationalizes the outcome after the fact and concocts the impression that a single self was in charge all along. (...) Our authorship of voluntary actions can also be an illusion, the result of noticing a correlation between what we decide and how our bodies move." On est peu de chose.

Am I somewhat off-track, off-tune, hors sujet?

[Daniel Strohl]

Charles,

"I promise other ground next time".

We look forward to that - thanks in advance.

[dot king]

He is playing everyone for a fool - at least everyone who voted for him and still believes in him.

[dot king]

Daniel, aren't you feeling at least a little let down by this gangster/president? Do you still have faith in him? Can you still take him seriously?
This isn't a "défi" - I know you have stated yourself to be a supporter, I wonder if any of this "unseemly" and unreliable display has made you think again.
You wanted renewal and a firm political advance, do you feel you're getting it?
How can we know if anything's going on besides this eternal mating dance?
What's more worrying is if there is anything going on,what can it be, and why aren't we informed?

[Daisy]

And now Hugo Chavez steals his thunder! Wasn't Sarko going to rescue the FARC hostages?

Any bets on how long before Carla dumps him? I think it could happen right about the time her next CD comes out.

[QCD]

Dorothy, as little going on as possible. That's the point. France needs to save costs.

[Helen]

"Nicolas is miserly... a man who loves no-one, not even his children"

Ow, that's gotta hurt.

[Donald]

CB: “This apparent settling of accounts by the ex-wife balances the picture of Sarko the abandoned husband and it is being greeted as fair game for a president who decided to break with decorum and flaunt his love life to the nation.” I don’t understand this point of view. Sarkozy wanted to stay in the marriage and present to the nation a wholesome family life which he likened to the Kennedy saga. He tried everything to keep the family together, including giving Cecilia the undeserved heroine role in freeing the hostages in Libya. It was Cecilia who immediately ran to the press after the divorce, not Sarkozy, to air dirty linen. And she did this BEFORE he started to flaunt his relationship with Bruni. I think that what happens in a marriage should be out of bounds for any ex-spouse to denigrate. In the end, history shows that everyone will lose if a certain sense of decorum in not observed in relationships. Cecilia chose, for good or bad reasons, to leave the marriage. That gives Sarkozy every right to play the bachelor if he chooses. Cecilia has no more claim on him.

CB: “Cécilia tells Anna Bitton, the author, a journalist on Le Point magazine who is, or more likely was, a close friend. "Nicolas is miserly... a man who loves no-one, not even his children...He has a ridiculous side. He is not worthy. He doesn't behave like the president of the republic. He has a real behaviour problem."”

No one seems to mention or care that she is demeaning, on the world stage, the father of her child. Children talk, they know what’s going on and children (her son’s classmates) can be very cruel. Their son can take some pride in his father dating a glamorous supermodel, but what can he do when he reads that his own mother has said his father doesn’t love him? No child wants the arguments of his parents to be known in front of the whole world. Does anyone care that Cecilia is creating an environment for her son where there will be no place for him to hide from the embarrassment and pain? I am appalled by this woman’s behavior. There is nothing more intimate than marriage, and therefore nothing more hurtful than a former spouse’s remarks about the marriage splashed all over the media, especially when children are concerned. It is one thing to go out with a supermodel, it is a totally different thing to have your own mother say, for all the world to hear, that your father doesn’t love you. Can there be anything more hurtful than that?

Charles, I hope you cover all the French news, whatever it may be. If Sarkozy’s relationships becomes the de facto news, which it most certainly is, then you should not have to apologize for doing so, in my opinion. Keep up the good work! I am interested in what is going on in France including what pre-occupies the French, whatever that may be, and if this is what the French are concerned about, I want to know that. Thanks.

[Rocket]

Ah the rumor mill!

read the below first in French

http://www.liberation.fr/actualite/politiques/303000.FR.php

I find what is going on with this continuing saga totally revealing of a deeper French mentality that has been underground for centuries and that is the love of "commerages" (gossip). Add to that hearsay, rumors and slander and another famous French identity trait of "discretion" bites the dust.

(see Outreau)

Once it has become politically correct to engage in the above stated qualities we see that the famous French exception about being above the fray on which people in this country are nursed from cradle to grave dissipates like like an ice cube in a 3 alarm fire.

A friend once told me about a couple who during one summer every night made love with their windows open in an apartment block. Apparently ,no one had the courage to tell them to shut up until a few weeks after one brave soul screamed at them to shut up and close their window. At that precise moment she said, everyone in the block took courage and leveled an unending barrage of screaming and insults at this couple. They did finally close their window.

Individual traits of discretion through fear of this order apply to relations with your neighbors as they do to power politics.

Let's hope the French continue to take courage without the "hearsay"

France and the French are no different than any other nation's people in the world. No better or no worse. It's time they stop thinking they were above the rest. It may add that 1 point of growth to GNP that Sarkozy "voulait aller chercher" but yet seems so elusive.

[Daniel Strohl]

Donald,

I agree totally with what you say above.

My opinion is that within a short time, Cecilia will be forgotten, and first of all by the media. They will no doubt find other subjects, hopefully more important and interesting.

[Robert Marchenoir]

Any aviation news lately?

[Daniel Strohl]

Dot King,

"What's more worrying is if there is anything going on,what can it be, and why aren't we informed?

Extrapolating from some of your posts, I suppose that the type of information which you are anxious to get is mainly not to say solely of strictly private and possibly very intimate nature, which is none of your business (nor of mine, of course).

As a foreigner making your living here with state subsidies, you should keep "une certaine réserve" (normally a typical British attitude which I appreciate).

You don't like Mr.Sarkozy - that is of course your good right - but that does not entitle you to call him "gangster/president".

You do not behave like a guest in our country. This behaviour is not coherent with the education you have got (Bac + 5 or equivalent as we were duly told).

Hereafter a quote from Rabelais, which you may or should think over - unless of course you already know it : "Science sans conscience n'est que ruine de l'âme".

PS : you asked me a question - do you still have faith in him ? Yes, I do. He is courageous, he is smart (sorry, clever - in British English) - I would even say very smart - this was very apparent during the press conference. And the socialist competition is no match for him. We can't afford any more only brilliant theories, with no action other than spending not yet earned money, and meanwhile enjoying the "35 heures".

[dada]

a whale should not be killed.
why?

[azloon]

Donald

hear, hear !! :)

we are in complete agreement concerning CB's excellent sense of what constitutes news in present-day france.

it obviously doesn't suit those eurosnobs who are used to the old days of chirac and mitterand. it apparently offends their senses. but those days are long gone.

i am in absolute agreement with you about cecilia's 'creepy' comments about sarko as a father. incroyable et inexcusible. she's a sociopath in my opinion, and narcissistic in the extreme. and i am afraid i see a little of her in carla.

the problem here is that sarko picked these women, revealing, imo, a real character defect. rather than jumping into a new relationship, he probably should have jumped onto a therapist's couch. he'll keep doing this self-destructive behavior until he is a 'bloody pulp.' sad for an otherwise fairly capable fellow. (it's truly astounding what some men will do to get laid).

is anyone in france outraged about cecilia's comments about sarko as father? does this pass as accceptable behavior in france? france may need an 'oprah' or a 'doctor phil' to publicly excoriate cecilia for her pathological behavior.

it's child abuse, even if the children are nominally adults.

[zyclop]

quote:
POSTED by: Donald | 10 Jan 2008 20:24:19
===================================
I totally and heartfelt agree !!!
===================================

[Aurelie Otis]

It is clear that it is Cecilia who does not love her 10 year old son. By making that statement to a reporter she has set up her own son to be miserable all his life because according to her his father does not love him. This little boy will need psychiatric treatment all his life.

Cecilia, please keep your private past life with NICOLAS SARKOZY locked up in your brain and do not discuss it with reporters and book writers.

Other comments/information about President SARKOZY are equally damaging. Even if this information is true, do not share it with anyone ever !! He is the father of your son. You will be a better woman by keeping silent.

[isobel]

Daniel Strohl - your last post gives the impression that Dot should "put up or shut up" because she has a state subsidised job. I don't know if you intended it but frankly your post sounds as if you are threatening her.The "certain reserve" you admire in British behaviour is also coupled with the belief in free speech.
Happy new year everyone!

[Daniel Strohl]

Azloon,

"Is anyone in france outraged about cecilia's comments about sarko as father? does this pass as accceptable behavior in france?"

1. Yes, I am outraged, and I am most probably not alone to be outraged.
2. No, it does not pass as acceptable behaviour in France, at least in my generation.
3. "even if the children are nominally adults" - Azloon, they have also an eleven year old boy - as far as I heard, he lives in the US. Let us hope that he is somewhat shielded over there.

Rocket,

"is the love of "commerages" (gossip)".

If one judges basing on comments on this blog, this "quality" is also hold by a given percentage of Anglo-Saxons. May be this percentage is somewhat higher in France, but who knows ?

[Maggie G]

Daniel, I think you were a little harsh with Dot.

When she said, "What's more worrying is if there is anything going on,what can it be, and why aren't we informed?", I'm pretty sure she was referring to action on the political front, because just before that she said "besides this eternal mating dance".

Maybe you read it a little too fast.

"How can we know if anything's going on besides this eternal mating dance?
What's more worrying is if there is anything going on,what can it be, and why aren't we informed?"

[Maggie G]

I am not taking sides with Cecilia. I agreed with what Donald said both this time and the last time, at least as far as his analysis of Sarkozy's behaviour.

But just to be fair, I would like to point out that I read the two interviews Cecelia gave in October, and she didn't actually say anything nasty about Sarkozy at that time. I got the impression that she had been badly stung by all the critical press she got in the Libian affair, the George Bush barbecue affair etc and wanted mainly to defend herself, to give her explanation of those stories. She actually said some fairly nice things about Sarko at that time, such as him being a maestro, if I remember correctly.

This time she has said some pretty serious stuff against him, but as Charles pointed out, her lawyers are now trying to stop the publication of the book, so it is pretty clear she regrets what she said. Maybe the journalist gained her confidence and got her to say more than she intended to say, or, if the journalist was a personal friend, maybe Cecilia thought that certain things she had said were "off the record".

As I said, I am not taking Cecelia's side, but I don't think she is quite as bitchy as is being suggested.

"Bitton says she cannot understand why her friend suddenly wants it blocked". Do you believe that this journalist really "cannot understand"?

Of course she understands.

[Ros]

Charles
In your NEWSPAPER article you say "but the singer-model has already moved into the Élysée Palace and is distracting him from his work" - I wonder where you found this? I even looked into Le Parisien & didn't find any mention -perhaps I read it too quickly?

[It was a short item on page two of le Parisien on Wednesday, Ros. CB]

[Rocket]

Daniel

I highly agree with you. We are moving toward a very uni-polar world these days dominated by gossip and one's 15 minutes of fame.

[christopher muir]

I can't see how Charles can avoid writing regularly about this high level soap opera. After all, it's making the front pages of every French newspaper each day. It could be that there are going to be serious consequences as a result of all these Sarkozian threads coming together. It's a story that may even lead to unwelcome international reactions (questions like "is he stable enough to trust?). Russian intelligence services must be having a good old belly laugh.

[dot king]

"Extrapolating from some of your posts, I suppose that the type of information which you are anxious to get is mainly not to say solely of strictly private and possibly very intimate nature, which is none of your business (nor of mine, of course)".
Not at all, Daniel, I prefer "real" news, but if this is all we get, then I read it and I comment. There had been no comment from yourself, who are a regular contributor to he blog, so I wondered how you felt about it. My question was truly in the spirit of asking someone what you thought about his behaviour.

BTW I'm not a "guest" here, I'm a European citizen and since my arrival (16 years ago) I have worked, paid taxes, frequented local shops, taken an interest in local politics by attending public meetings and voting in local and European elections.
I'm a "contribuable" liable for all the same taxes and expenses as you are.
I don't have the right to vote at national level, but I'm very interested in politics, and no I don't like Sarkozy bacause I don't rate him either as a man or a poltician.
There was no personal attack on you in my question and it was even posed in that way, pity you chose to make personal attacks in your reply. Je ne vous dérangerez plus. Merci.

[john o'doe]

Sarko's son will suffer and so will Carla Bruni's. Those photos of him on Sarko's shoulders at Petra were truly horrific.
I want to know what Sarko was doing in Jordan last weekend. Was it a state visit with the object of talks with the king or was that just an alibi for a visit to Petra with Carla? Remember that Petra was where Cécilia was first seen in public with Richard Attias. Whose plane did he travel on this time?

[dot king]

"the problem here is that sarko picked these women, revealing, imo, a real character defect. rather than jumping into a new relationship, he probably should have jumped onto a therapist's couch. he'll keep doing this self-destructive behavior until he is a 'bloody pulp.' sad for an otherwise fairly capable fellow. (it's truly astounding what some men will do to get laid)."
Azloon
this has also been said by more than one political commentator on a couple of the most serious political discussion programmes, eg "Ripostes", "C dans l'air" (though not expressed quite so bluntly). The "character defect" aspect of his very public displays of his private life has been quite widely commented by some repected and respectable figures;
As I've said before, it's all we get.

[dot king]

I think I might have committed une faute de français in my last post (not yet appeared as I write) so here's the correction in case:
Je ne vous dérangerai plus (for Daniel) - I think I put "dérangerez" tsk tsk . . .

[John Gregory Flinn]

"... Le Figaro gushed that Sarko had set course for a French version of President Kennedy's New Frontier."

Yes, I thought that too.
Especially the headline - "Sarkozy, le pied sur l'accélérateur" - which must be referring to the rhetoric!
They ('Le Figaro') seemed to be saying French society could not bear a 'therapie de choc', so what's 'rupture' meant to mean then?
(And of course Kennedy was a leftie, who sent troops into Vietnam - sorry "advisers". Which conflict was eventually abandoned by a republican.)
So much for political labels!

His spat with Cécilia looks like developing into an illustration of that old adage "hell hath no fury like ....", and could run and run - as they say.

[QCD]

A difficult word to translate in french is "peevish". For our French friends, it neatly encapsulates most of the comments on this page. Used to express indignation at another person's moral superiority. Peevishness: attitude repeatedly on found in the novels of Edith Wharton.

[dot king]

It isn't important whether Cecilia is a bitch, or Carla is a man-eater, but it IS important that there is a man in high office, who, so we are told, is quickly under the influence of women who aren't elected - aren't we already told that Ms Bruni is already in charge of invitations? - they are no more than les élues de son coeur - France needs a president whose brain is in gear - what he does with the other bits of his anatomy should be of no interest - unless, yes unless, it affects how he does his job, and maybe that's what is newsworthy here, that these women, no matter how critics and gossips qualify them, seem to have some kind of hold over him.
That he feels the need to parade in this way, is IMO, quite out of place in of someone in a position of such power.
Did someone mention "discretion" as being an appreciable quality? A renvoyer à Monsieur le Président.

[azloon]

QCD

characterizing the complaints about cecilia's atrocious parenting as 'peevish' is a typical 'above-it-all' eurosnobby reaction. i have no idea if you're british, but it wouldn't surprise me.

btw, you don't need to feel 'morally superior' to find cecilia's behavior abhorrent. anyone who's ever gone throuh divorce has faced this issue, and, if in touch with their 'higher angels,' resisted this destructive impulse to trash their ex- for the sake of their children.

to give in to this impulse is a mark of extreme immaturity, a characteristic that seems to infect the european elite.

that sarko aspires to hang out with this degenerate bunch is the real tragedy. so nouveau riche!

[D]

Sarkosi laid a red carpet for the press-people, he wanted a break from the past. Boy, he has succeeded. Chirac is quoted to have said, of Cecilia leaving for Attias, " Bernadette would not have done that to me". Cecilia is definitely different from Bernadette, who just went for les pieces jaunes instead of taking a frying pain to the side of the head of her wayward husband. She is an aristo, they have a way of dealing with this stuff.
When 2 people's love turn to hate it's best to take cover as long as the mud slinging last, that is impossible when these 2 people have press editors on speed-dial. Well, at least it's more fun to watch than hearing that our economy is in the toilet and we need to brace ourselves. I can't be the only one who thinks this is fun? Bet his mother does not find Cecilia cold now. Sarkosi is very clever yes, but totally lacking "l'étoffe du chef". These people need therapy.

[qwerty]

This saga is getting too creepy for words. Someone in the blog mentioned that Cee 1 was first seen with Attias in Petra, so Sarkozy goes there with Cee 2. Eery physical resemblance between the two. Sarkozy gave both women exactly the same ring. This is turning into Vertigo, or Obsession (by Brian de Palma). The man is quite mad, so is Cee 1 and maybe Cee 2. I'm refraining from any further commentary on him henceforth, hope he gets his reforms done quickly, and then OUT.

[thinknoworpaylater]

J.G.Flinn - though I enjoy your posts generally the notion that the Vietnam war was eventually abandoned by a Republican is neither here nor there. As Frank S. said much earlier a one-party state is what America is now! In that sense is it that different from Cuba? (Im sticking my neck out - but generally there is a drive to centre left even amongst the so-called right wing parties - U.K. read Conservative under Cameron)What are the differences between the Democrats and the Republicans? Close up (in America the Good) they seem different. Anywhere else the look much the same. Two turnips - which one do you choose? The fact is that Bush and Blair started the war in Iraq (probably illegaly) and have both gained a great deal financially. This is not envy (pace Terry) it is, as some say (the parents of dead U.K. soldiers) blood money. Harsh terms but many have died for what? And dont forget the Iraqis.

[thinknoworpaylater]

owerty - interesting post about consciousness and current neuro-science ideas. You have a point. There is too much blame attached to what appear to be simple conscious decisions but which are much more complex than that especially in the emotional department. Thanks - if you have the reference please pass it on.

[john o'doe]

Now here's some real news: Sarko asked Jacques Attali to head a working group to recommend measures to stimulate economic growth. He bravely promised to implement those recommendations whatever they might be. The group has now reported its conclusion.
Besides scrapping the administrative 'departements' Attali recommends loosening immigration restrictions to provide a younger and vigourous workforce.
Let's see how Sarko keeps his promise whilst not upsetting his ex-Front National supporters.

[QCD]

Azloon,

You once threatened me with sodomy on this blog if I ventured into Arizona so I wouldn't lecture about immaturity.

[azloon]

[Azloon,

You once threatened me with sodomy on this blog if I ventured into Arizona so I wouldn't lecture about immaturity.] QCD

ah, so you ARE british.

[Mary Catherine, US]

The ex is making a damn fool of herself.

[qwerty]

Thinknoworpaylater:

The article appeared in Time magazine some time last year (on the "Brain"). I copied and pasted it without keeping the full refernces but it would be easy to google. The New York Times runs similar articles on these subjects. A bit depressing, actually. Sort of questions our core identity (do we in fact have one?)

Taking this further into the realm of science fiction, read a little book about cancer by a renowned French cancer specialist (where the heck did I put it???) - having evolved from unicellular entities, we are in fact nothing more than a community of cells, agglomerated and "solidaires" to some extent but each fighting for life and food within our organism... (my imagination is probably extrapolating quite a bit here).

[Ros]

QCD
"Peevish" can't be used in relation to Cecilia & her parenting - the real use of this word in french, I should say, is as an adverb "to talk peevishly"= d'un ton irrité - maybe?

[dot king]

peevish - (according to my dictionary), choose your favourite: irritable, maussade, grincheux, d'humeur acariâtre

"The ex is making a damn fool of herself."

They're all making damn fools of themselves.

[Fred from NYC]

Dear Charles,

Thanks so much for your insightful blog and writing. This is one of the only steady sources I have to keep track after French affairs (Rue89 is helpful, but not the same).

Sarkozy (like him or not) is fascinating/terrifying (choose your term) but there is no doubt that he is shaping and influencing this country like no one has done before.

So, I know gossip sounds trashy, butin this case please keep them coming (and if you can: not at the expense of other French affairs and trends).

[Thank you, Fred, for your encouragement. It's not always easy to keep a balance but Sarkozy and his circus are a global news story now, whether we like it or not. CB]

[Daniel Strohl]

Isobel,

« belief in free speech »

I too believe in free speech. But in my opinion, calling (of course anonymously) a head of state a « gangster » goes well beyond free speech. I guess that if the same had happened in NZ , Australia, UK, or any other country, some local people would have been upset. But may be I am « vieux jeu » (old fashioned).
Happy New Year to you too !

Maggie G,

« Daniel, I think you were a little harsh with Dot »

May be or even probably. However, if Dot is interested to know what Sarkozy has in mind regarding civil servants, he made this morning a speech in Lille. In my opinion, it was very clear, and not at all negative for the civil servants. It is may be less positive for some unions, who are asking for ever more civil servants. He said that this was no more possible; he wants less of them, but better trained and better paid. Most of our neighbours (and Canada as well) have made that since years, and probably much more brutally than it will happen in France (no civil servant will or can be fired – a part of the retiring personnel will not be replaced). Our neighbours' (and Canada's) deficits have been lowered significantly and have even turned out into surplus in some cases.

« Real Politik » in these matters is of the responsibility of a head of state, who can not be only « a nice guy », as our presidents were consistently since 1981, for obvious reasons; both have been reelected – this is much less sure for Sarkozy, « s'il garde le cap » - as an ancient mariner, that is what I hope he will do.

Maggie, sorry for the lecture, I know of course that you don't need nor deserve it !

PS : last week, there was an interesting article in Time magazine about the "loonie", which has been climbing in value like the Euro, but has now become more "reasonable". Let us hope the same for the Euro.

Dot King,

« There was no personal attack on you in my question ».
Of course – I didn't feel attacked personnally. I understand that you do not like Sarkozy either as a man or as a head of state – this of course is your good right – but as an educated person, you should however have weighted your words.

[Valentin]

"Yes, I do. He is courageous, he is smart"

Not only: Sarko also has a very rare quality in politics today: honesty.
when you watch him saying "Je veux agir. Je veux changer le pays" (I want action, I want to change the country) you cannot keep any bit of distrust. It is obvious that this is who the man really is.

(unless of course you're a british citizen, bitterly making a living on French State SUBSIDIZED business, and being a guest here, even if for 16 years: because not a French citizen, and because the country is called France, not Europe, and because brits are the most europhobe people ever, which makes it LE COMBLE DU TOUPET to pretend you're an european citizen;
if you're all that, of course you will keep nagging on and on and on, on the principle expressed by Beaumarchais:
Calomniez, calomniez, il en restera toujours quelque chose)

[dot king]

"but as an educated person, you should however have weighted your words".
I always weigh my words, Daniel. I also heard on the news about the NY wishes for the civil service in Lille - it hasn't been commented here in an article by Charles, so apart from saying he made his speech, there isn't much to comment that is relevant to this blog.

I don't think it's outrageous to call a national leader a gangster when he can, via a single announcement (later démenti), send the businesses of his buddies soaring in the stockmarket, have others wondering whether tomorrow they'll still have a job, or worse a home, say the coffers are empty whilst buying identical Dior diamond rings for his serial ladyfriends, say his thoughts are with those who are alone, without resources, in a speech which we learn was written on the plane back from a luxury holiday in Egypt.
A man like that is not one I could have faith in, and I'm frankly surprised that you can. (Hence my question in the first place.)
You might argue that what he does with his own money is his own business and I would agree with it, so why is his extravagant life-style the only thing we get?
As an "educated person", I always think for myself too.

[christopher muir]

There's an interesting item about Sarkozy's forthcoming visit to India printed in today's Asia Times online. Perhaps the famous pair will soon be married, saving a lot of trouble for Indian protocol officials.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JA10Df01.html

[dot king]

Valentin, I'll introduce you to another British colloqialism "Go boil your head!"
And a quotation from a film which you won't know because whilst you've learned to use English well, you've only learned to use it pompously: "Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it infamy!"
Not all Brits are anti-Europe, in the referendum held in the late 1970's I voted "yes" (oui). And had already lived in France before then, and already spoke the language fluently, and spent as much time here as I could.
I don't have to justify anything, especially to you, Valentin, but when I worked in the private sector in France, I certainly wasn't "state subsidised", nor did I work "only" 35 hours; and even now, my salary (part-time may I remind you), comes from the PRIVATE school's budget.
But wherever my income comes from, I'm still paying the same cotisations and taxes as you.
There, does that make you happier?
Really, when you get indignant it's like something from "La cage aux folles".

[concedo nulli]

I feel I must contribute the same comment now and then for the sake of balance and fair play. There are too many ill-informed ,prejudiced Anglos on this blog. It can only remain a quality blog if the French are many, providing accurate information and not airing their peevishness as a priority. Aimez-vous les uns les autres

[azloon]

[I too believe in free speech. But in my opinion, calling (of course anonymously) a head of state a « gangster » goes well beyond free speech.] Daniel S.

Daniel, this certainly is hyperbole, a figure of speech.

but 'beyond' free speech?

my god, i certainly hope not for your sake, and anyone else who values freedom of expression.

i am sure sarko can 'take it.'

[azloon]

[It can only remain a quality blog if the French are many, providing accurate information and not airing their peevishness as a priority.] Concedo Nulli

perhaps a bit like asking pigs to fly?

actually, i am hoping that a large number of french would be appalled to think that Valentin and Dominique were their sole reperesentatives of a french point of view. to describe them as a bit 'peevish' from time to time is to finally use that word in a proper context.

[dot king]

"Aimez-vous les uns les autres"
Joli, Concedo, mais en vérité, nous nous adorons tous!

[john o'doe]

OK it seems we need some loftier diversion so let's have some accurate, unpeevish, quality information about 'la politique de la civilisation', if Guaino has explained to Sarko how this squares with the 'rupture' with the ideas of May '68.

[Valentin]

Dot King,

You act like so many fonctionnaires: you live at the French State expense (even private schools are subsidized) and you insult its leaders.
Beyond the mindboggling hypocrisy of it all,
if you really had anything to do with linguistics you would know that gangster means being part of a criminal organization.

Nothing of the sort has ever been said, let alone proved about Sarkozy. If his friends' business soared on the stockmarket, WHERE's the CRIME ? And if he speaks about uniting services, like the UNEDIC and ASSEDIC, or RFI, France 24 and TV5, where do you deduce that it will lead to people out of their jobs in mass?

Daniel is right, you don't weigh your words, you just splash around insults about France, the French and those elected by the French, while being a British citizen.
You're the nasty, far less informed, version of Rocket. He can say constructive things too, while we didn't hear ONE positive thing from you.
But what to hope from someone spending their time honking at people doing their needs in a corner - and then bragging about it.
Oh Mon Dieu mon Dieu, the world we live in...

[D]

Dear Valentin,

This Sarko crush, you have it bad. "Sarko also has a very rare quality in politics today: honesty". Please add bromide to your coffee in the morning, Sarko has an impressionante long list of people he has betrayed. Don't confuse an ability to steal other's ideas or to say what people want to hear with honesty, or you might feel cheap and all used up in the morning.

[The Other Katherine Harris]

Beware. The more froth is spewed by the media-industrial complex, the more easily the pockets of distracted citizens can be picked.

This admonition comes to you from an American, who also lived for extended periods in Europe. I've long admired the sophisticated French outlook on the private lives of public figures, and your resistance to sensationalism and jingoism. For your sake, I hope you'll keep demanding Real News and refuse to get caught up in media circuses.

[Valentin]

D,

If you read certain books on him as I did (Yasmina Reza's etc), listen to some of his speeches during the electoral campaign, follow his career path, you will probably notice a few things: the man had a coherent vision, all the time; also, he strikes as an enemy of half-measures and hypocrisy (two big problems in France); finally, the man really believes what he says. You may treat me of die-hard, I followed Sarkozy for a while and I was a supported of de Villepin - who I still think would have made a good president. But at some point things crystalize, and no one today in France, or even in Europe, has a comparable power of vision. He could become a huge statesman if he learns to protect himself, not deliver himself so much, and drops these silly love stories that are so below him.

I can justify this statement with details and objectivity (IMO!), but I won't do it, I'm as fed up with my own long posts as some others seem to be. Striking the right balance between a detailed argumentation and blog legibility is a delicate matter.

[Valentin]

Azloon,

Insulting people, especially insulting elected French heads of state by a foreigner, is not in the category of free speech.
Even in real life, and even in the US, you are allowed to criticize, but insult is punished by the law.

Otherwise, thank you for your compliments. I really hope that the time will come, when you'll prove them right by intervening in debates in a significant manner, with arguments and logic.
I can stay aside, if that'll be the price for you to show us your wisdom.

[dot king]

"calling (of course anonymously) a head of state a « gangster »"
Daniel, I believe if you look back, I didn't post anonymously - if I had how could you have anwered me? I wrote it as part of a question I asked you, so how on earth can you level anonymity at me?

"You're the nasty, far less informed, version of Rocket"
WOW!
Oooh Valentin, you really are upset aren't you . . .
I can hardly wait for Rocket's reaction to that one!

I know what "gangster" means, but you have to REALLY understand English to recognise hyperbole. In fact you have to WANT to understand in order to have meaningful exchanges with people and not just be spoiling for a fight and currying favour all the time.

"where do you deduce that it will lead to people out of their jobs in mass?"
where do you deduce the opposite? - and of course I was reporting the reactions of those directly concerned to Sarkozy's speech.

" while we didn't hear ONE positive thing from you".
oh really? well if you go back up to the top of the "french culture dies again" thread, you might notice that I was one of the few who could come up with a list of living French world-famous people - I can't remember any contribution from you on that level.

"But what to hope from someone spending their time honking at people doing their needs in a corner" - not in a corner, Valentin, in public and outside my house.

All your comments show is that you are no more than a peevish child at heart.
You look rather foolish from where I'm sitting. And I have to ask, if I'm so unpleasant, then why are you engaging me in discussion?
It gets more "cage aux folles" with every post - you should have given up while you still believed you were ahead.

[Margot]

Oh Cecilia - la revanche est un plat qui se mange froid - La France est presidee par un homme qui n'est pas digne, qui ne fait pas President de la Republique, qui a un reel probleme de comportement...

How ironic really,when you come to think of it,it wasn't so long ago that Jacques was telling Tony off for his manners.

Vive la France!

[thinknoworpaylater]

For Godssake Valentin wake up. Sarko may not be a criminal yet so far as we know but you are so starry-eyed. Dot Kings position is not absurd. Agreat deal is going on here and we are all concerned about the future of French culture and society. Attacking Dot is beside the point. Her life here is also part of all our shared lives here. Do try to stop insulting her and her work here. The critique of power and of powerful people (Sarko in case there is an ambiguity) was first spelled out thirty years ago by Foucault - speak truth to power. Thats a French philosopher in case you have managed to avoid it. Get opff her back. She has a right to say whay she is saying. And that right derives from French culture which (I think) both she and I admire.

[dot king]

"You act like so many fonctionnaires"
oh yeh? Like Dominique for example?
You can't have it all ways, Valentin.
This could be the undoing of the unholy (and unlikely) alliance between you and he.
It was just one of those things . . .

[isobel]

Going by what Dot has revealed about herself and her attitudes to working in France it seems that she is unlike many (not all) "fonctionnaires" that I've come into contact with. She seems to be hard working, cares about her students and puts time and effort into making her classes relevant and interesting.The fact that she's less than enamoured with Sarkozy is no reason for these increasingly unpleasant personal attacks.

[Daniel Strohl]

Margot,

"it wasn't so long ago that Jacques was telling Tony off for his manners".

"How ironic really" : this formulation applies very well today - Sarkozy has invited Mr.Blair to the « Conseil National de l'UMP » (UMP is Sarkozy's political party), where he made a speech – in French; both gentlemen were « côte à côte » on the podium and seemed to enjoy each other. It was funny – Mr.Blair has much humour. Mr.Sarkozy also, at least in my opinion, which may possibly not be really representative of this blog ... However, I am wondering if our « socialistes grand teint » were also pleased with this demonstrative and updated « Entente Cordiale ».

PS : the happening is described in detail on the web site of « Le Monde » :
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-823448,36-998899@51-998385,0.html

[dot king]

"gangster means being part of a criminal organization." (Valentin)

Gangster also means being a member of a gang - in the UK every street-corner has its gang - the Alice Street Gang, the Spring Gardens Gang, a bit like The Bash Street Kids - you might have heard of them. It also means The Bulldogs and the Warriors (two school-based gangs), as well as The Jets and The Sharks (West Side Story) and can be anything from simple rivalries to organised crime.
You can't pick up those kinds of references because you don't have that cultural or linguistic experience.
So you accuse me of lying, do you, about having studied linguistics?
You know what, I really don't care.

[Daniel Strohl]

Dot King,

"Daniel, I believe if you look back, I didn't post anonymously"

In my opinion, one posts anonymously if one uses a pseudonym instead of one's real name.

Pseudonyms are widely used on blogs. However, I am not sure that this is always good for the quality of the exchanges, but of course, it facilitates some sort of "free speech".

I fully understand also that some persons can not, because of professional reasons, use their real name. But this in turn - at least in my old fashioned way of thinking - should lead to some restraint in aggressive nominative comments, especially if the latter are not basing on any substantiated evidence, but only on subjective feelings - sorry for the pleonasm.

[dot king]

Daniel: what do you think my real name is then? The one used on this blog is the one all my friends, colleagues and acquaintances have known me by for years.
Dot is short for Dorothy, King is my family name.
So what's the problem?

[dot king]

Isobel, thank you, it's good to have some support - and thanks to everyone else too. You must all be very bored with these repeated personal attacks;
To put the record straight once and for all - I'm not a "fonctionnaire" as Valentin hoped to insult me by saying, (and at the same time he insulted Dominique, who is a fonctionnaire) because to be one you have to pass un concours, and I haven't passed any, chose not to as I didn't want to be moved around like a pawn at the will of someone in an office, which is another reason I can say that my salary isn't state-subsidised, but from the school's own budget because a need was recognised and they employed me to meet it. They have a degree of independence in these matters, no matter what Valentin wnats to seeth and froth about it.
And you're quite right, I love what I do, and it isn't the likes of Valentin that are going to make any difference to that.
So, a teacher, yes, a fonctionnaire, non.

[dot king]

It's not so long ago that Tony Blair was spending his holidays in France, chez Mr Jospin, lest we forget.

[stephen Bull]

You have apparently decided to become the unofficial biographer. Why not look at the original?
JOHNSON. 'Sarko was a very good man, the cheerfullest man of his age; a decent liver in a profession which is supposed to give indulgence to licentiousness. He began the world with a great hunger for money; whose study was to make four-pence do as much as others made four-pence halfpenny do. But, when he had got money, he was very liberal.'
BREMNER ( I presumed to animadvert on his eulogy on Sarko). 'You say, Sir, his life eclipsed the gaiety of nations.'
JOHNSON. 'I could not have said more nor less. It is the truth; eclipsed. not extinguished, and his life did eclipse; it was like a storm.'
BREMNER 'But why nations? Did his gaiety extend farther than his own nation?'
JOHNSON. 'Why, Sir, some exaggeration must be allowed. Besides, nations may be said--if we allow the Scotch to be a nation, and to have gaiety,--which they have not......

[azloon]

[Insulting people, especially insulting elected French heads of state by a foreigner, is not in the category of free speech.
Even in real life, and even in the US, you are allowed to criticize, but insult is punished by the law.] Valentin

Vee --

if i remember corrrectly, you have lived in the u.s. -- california if i recall.

but you obviosly didn't arrive at any proper understanding of american law regarding 'protected' speech.

public officials in the u.s. have NO protection whatsoever from insults, even libel or slander, for the very reason that they are public personalities. it's the price they pay for power -- a quite high price in some cases. there have been qualified presidential candidates who withdrew from consideration becasuse of the scrutiny and public insult they would likely experience if they were elected to office.

so, to emphasize my point, i am hereby accusing president george w. bush of being a gangster. and while i am at it, i think i'll accuse barack obama of being a thief and an arsonist.

so you get the idea. france and the u.s. are different places with vastly different manners, sensibilities, customs and laws.

vive la difference (the french traditions and laws in this area have some advantages, but not enough, imo, to change our system).

p.s. i am not much of a debater. i am easily bored, and most debates, even important ones, are boring.
so debate to your heart's content but don't be insulted if many of us head to the medicine cabinet for aspirin.

btw, i have absorbed the essence of the education debate. and, i have formed opinions about french education by reading the many posts on the subject.

but MORE importantly, i have formed an even stronger opinion about french debating style and french sensitivity when it comes to constructive criticism of their educational system by non-french.

that, by itself, had made my time on this blog worthwhile.

[Valentin]

Dorothy,

I'm not "engaging" you, I'm putting things straight, tout simplement.
I can play the nasty sting game too - here's a sample, moulded to fit your style: peevish I may be, yet it's by far preferable to be a child at heart than a bitter old hag with the understanding level of an Accrington brick.

Gangster is an insult in France.
Sarkozy's words and actions are debatable, I never said anything when you expressed your political views. Fluent in French as you are, and knowing there are French posting here too, you must realize that "gangster" is an insult, not a mere word adversaries throw at each other. Cool down now, get your posts to a mature level instead of the neverending nagging and stinging, and you'll be treated accordingly.

[Valentin]

thinknoworpaylater :

Anyone has the right to say whatever he wants, and I'm the first to recognize that right.
This time though I'm in my right, you cannot call someone, let alone a head of my country, a gangster, with as sole justification "I dont agree with his policies" or "I dont like him as a man". You may take it lightly, well I don't.

In general lefties have a long history of insulting their opponents. Never a head of state was so despised and insulted in public by members of the parliament and socialist leaders as Jacques Chirac. That went far beyond his flaws, down to a humanly unacceptable level. The same happens with Sarkozy. They called him a dictator in waiting, they called him a madman, now he's a gangster. That's not criticism, it's lynchage, even at our modest level here.

Charles is free d'ailleurs to moderate heavy exchanges, and I remind you I was called names by Azloon, Rocket or Dot, way before I reply the same way.

[Pierre Bernardi]

Well obviously my comment about peevishness stung a few people. In order to restore the balance I'd like to point out that a certain attitude towards the British, recognizable in the French, is hard to pin down in either language. It's more than arrogance, it's more than suffisance, but a good example is Valentin attempting to explain the word "gangster" to Dorothy King IN HER OWN LANGUAGE. You know it all, you're French, you obviously rule the world, what need would you have for humility?

As a Franco-Brit, I often wonder to which side I lean more. When this thing I can't define is in evidence, I don't have to wonder for long. Robert Furlong, if you'll let me in to one of your 'masculine' states, I think I'll apply for american nationality.

PS: Dorothy Cotton, I grew up on the Beano, so I know where you're coming from. Why do I try to impress you? You haven't really raised yourself above Valentin's level. Your comments on Sarkory demonstrate (as do your comments on education) a position of interest, not principle. I'm a taurus, by the way, so this sting in the tail is unusual for me, but what the heck, we're only talking animals.

[Valentin]

Dot : "you accuse me of lying, do you, about having studied linguistics"

I don't, I was amazed that even you could throw in such heavy word, without the shade of a justification: that made it an insult. (that's probably the way you meant it anyway, since your Alice Street Gang explanation came much later)

[Daniel Strohl]

Dot King,

Re : your post dated 12 JAN 19:24

I am sorry, I didn't get it - I really thought you were using a pseudonym, i.e Dot King ! (I possibly need some vitamins good for my aging brains !).

However, regarding the word "gangster" used in a French context like Charles' blog : a "gangster" is a "bandit" - I have interpreted it in this latter meaning in your post. That is why I got upset - to call somebody (in this case a head of state) a "gangster" is in fact a very serious insult.

In French usage, "gangster" is most of the time mafia connoted : Al Capone, Lucky Luciano were gangsters and Eliot Ness was fighting gangsters.

To call Sarkozy a "gangster" is in good usage of the French language totally inadequate. If you didn't know it before, now you are informed.

With the exception of Porgy and Bess, I was quite unaware of the various kinds of street gangs you have mentioned above in your post to Valentin. Of course, we too have our street gangs - they are called "bandes", but one may call their members "bandits" only if they have been duly convicted for very serious offences. If not, i.e if they are only suspected of a criminal offence, the French law protects them under "présomption d'innocence". I am not at all a law specialist, but I suppose that there are similar provisions in many other foreign law systems.

En ce qui me concerne, l'affaire est maintenant classée. Vous vous êtes expliquée, je me suis expliqué.

[Rocket]

Daniel

"I too believe in free speech. But in my opinion, calling (of course anonymously) a head of state a « gangster » goes well beyond free speech."

Problem is cultural here.

As Ronald Reagan once said.

"There you go again"

Daniel started this anonymous posting complaining with me a couple of months ago and I sent him to a site with my pictures. He seemed to be pacified. I cannot understand why you (Daniel) absolutely need to know names of people. I am suspicious of the motivation behind this.

As Dot explained her real name was Dorothy and there are about a zillion people in the world with the last name King. This was obvious to me from the get go. I even thought her name was Dottie. You "au contraire" saw it as a ploy to hide her identity and then insinuated subterfuge.

see Outreau..again

You... Daniel seemed to think her pseudo was "le roi des points" Dot being invariable in number in English as it is an adjective in this case.

Well here's one for you

My name first name is Roc and my last name is Ket (or is that kekette?)

Who cares!

Valentin

"Even in real life, and even in the US, you are allowed to criticize, but insult is punished by the law."

Please don't explain our constitution to us.

Wrong! Read the first amendment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech

[Johnson]

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

I suspect that she is irritated because he didn't go into mourning, and don sackcloth and ashes when she embarked on her sexual adventures.

Now instead of a desirable seductress, she is identified as disposable goods, quite demeaning.

At least Mr. Sarkzy had the good taste to remain silent conerning his ex-wife's apparently numerous peccadilloes. A French woman without savoir faire? Taisez vous. Be discreet and silent.

The ex-wife in publicizing her distress has lowered herself in the eyes of almost everyone. She has a new lover. Let it rest.

[Valentin]

Rocket, Azloon :

I won't explain anything to you, you'll just have to go here :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel#United_States_law

defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual,
Most jurisdictions allow legal actions.. to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism.

All states except Arizona, Arkansas, Mississippi, Missouri, and Tennessee recognize that some categories of statements are considered to be defamatory per se :

Allegations or imputations "injurious to another in their trade, business, or profession"

Allegations or imputations of criminal activity

[a don]

ex-wives are not likely to be good character references.

[Rocket]

Valentin

You're all confused it seems. Slander and libel are not insult.

You can call the president and asshole but you can't spread that he raped the kid next door.

"Allegations or imputations of criminal activity"

Allegations not name calling.

ex

"un président désinvolte, qui improvise, exhibitionniste".

where does that break French law. Will S. Royal go to jail?

exhibitionnist!!!

You, like Daniel believe us guest workers should shut our mouths and "subir"

Keep trying

[John Gregory Flinn]

THINKORPAYLATER -
"J.G.Flinn - though I enjoy your posts generally the notion that the Vietnam war was eventually abandoned by a Republican is neither here nor there."

Exactly. There is little difference between (U.S.) republicans and democrats.
Also, there seems little difference to me between 'choc' and 'rupture' but Le Figaro would have us believe otherwise.
Hence my ironic comment - "So much for political labels!"

I didnt see Frank's post you refer to but do agree there has been a developing political trend to narrow the democratic spectrum in the west around a consensus centre. It appears to have originated in the US, but has become a pervasive trend in Europe since WW2, because it deliberately excludes and (sic) paints as beyond the pale any extremes on the right or left outside the narrowing consensus.

But this may become a subject for debate in another blog....

[azloon/robert furlong]

[In that case, the court determined that public officials could win a suit for libel only if they could demonstrate "actual malice" on the part of reporters or publishers. In that case, "actual malice" was defined as "knowledge that the information was false" or that it was published "with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not." This decision was later extended to cover "public figures", although the standard is still considerably lower in the case of private individuals.] Wikipedia

Valentin --

'actual malice' and 'reckless disregard' are the operative terms in this debate, and very hard for a u.s. public official to prove, especially if the negative comments come from someone as insignificant a poster on a blog.

so, virtually every outrageous criticism of an elected public official, true or not, is protected by our constitution.

it would be a different matter entirely if the times of london printed false criticisms -- but ONLY if the publication KNEW them to be false before printing them. if they had even a scintilla of evidence that the charge MIGHT be true, the newpaper is protected.

instead of imagining that you know everything, why don't you ask questions of those who might know more than you about certain things that aren't in your sphere of practical knowledge?? if you'll adopt that approach, i will reciprocate. :)

-------------

Pierre Bernardi -- are you switching between screen names -- QCD, Pierre, Pierre Bernardi? an identity crisis, maybe, owing to you dual citizenship? perhaps i am mistaken, and i welcome a plausible denial.

in any event, i can assure you that one of you is enough.

i propose we settle our little spat with a gunfight at the OK Corral (in Tombstone, Arizona where 'fake' duels are frequently staged -- for a small gratuity which i will gladly pay).

[dot king]

I would like everyone who doubts it to know that I am and was fully aware of all the levels of interpretation of the word "gangster" in both languages when I used it. I had no need of an explanation in either language.
Valentin, you can insult me all you like, I have long ago stopped taking anything you say seriously. In UK staffrooms, as a pupil, you would be the one referred to as "that arrogant little toe-rag" - just a statement of simple truth.

I don't know who Dorothy Cotton is, but I assume you mean me Pierre Bernardi, Dot King.
I'm surprised you don't think I justified any of my remarks about Sarkozy, I certainly did.
And I do have the (teacher's) habit of giving credit where it's due, so the day HRM does something I think is good for France, or at least someone other than himself, I'll say so.
For the record, I've never stated myself to be a "leftie" which is often thrown at me - all that comes from Valentin. The assumption he makes that anyone who doesn't agree with him is a leftie. If he says it then it must be so - well, whatever, whatever - who cares?
Valentin doesn't discuss, he lectures, he waits for someone to get criticised by someone else, then he curries that someone eles's favour by starting a slanging match. See every other thread, it's what he does. A pattern. He goes with whoever he thinks is winning, and it's usually with a man, against women. (And no, I don't want to start a sex war, it's just a pattern I've noticed.
I suggest we just tell him he's right, superior, whatever whatever.
It doesn't bother me at all what you say or whose side you take, but perhaps you'll agree that a Taurus would never sink to Valentin's level; I suggest this is the French bit of you speaking :)

[Valentin]

Rocket,

There's a difference between criticising, even calling names (ie Sandrine calling Sarko morveux), and slander.
Yes, insults can of many kinds, but this whole discussion is about the term "gangster" used for Sarkozy. It falls exactly in the category "allegations of criminal activity".

Especially more so when you're a guest. Being guest, albeit from a friend-nation, bears some obligations. You may allow your cousins a certain liberty of tone, but you won't permit it from a stranger living in your house for a while. It's a question of respect, manners, upbringing.

[dot king]

En ce qui me concerne, l'affaire est maintenant classée. Vous vous êtes expliquée, je me suis expliqué.

Daniel, ainsi soit-il

[dot king]

peevish I may be, yet it's by far preferable to be a child at heart than a bitter old hag with the understanding level of an Accrington brick. (Valentin)

well, that's a matter of opinion Valentin . . .

"Slander and libel are not insult"

An insult is an expression, statement or behavior that is considered offensive, rude or degrading

Categories of insults

Insult to personality e.g. bitch, asshole, jerk
Insult to morals and behavior e.g. liar, thief [, gangster]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/insult
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insult

[dot king]

Just for fun ;-), I have selected by carefully scrolling through the posts on this thread, cutting and pasting all the negative comments made directly about Sarkozy.
Thank you to anyone who can be bothered to read through them, I think you might find that amongst the rest "gangster" is in the end, relatively mild.
There is talk of madness, character defect, betrayal, terrifying, a lot of personal AND political comment.
Why were none of these picked up I wonder by the Sarko-Admiration Police?

And now Hugo Chavez steals his thunder! Wasn't Sarko going to rescue the FARC hostages?
***
Any bets on how long before Carla dumps him? I think it could happen right about the time her next CD comes out.
***
Dorothy, as little going on as possible. That's the point. France needs to save costs.
***
France and the French are no different than any other nation's people in the world. No better or no worse. It's time they stop thinking they were above the rest. It may add that 1 point of growth to GNP that Sarkozy "voulait aller chercher" but yet seems so elusive.
***
the problem here is that sarko picked these women, revealing, imo, a real character defect.
***
It could be that there are going to be serious consequences as a result of all these Sarkozian threads coming together. It's a story that may even lead to unwelcome international reactions (questions like "is he stable enough to trust?). Russian intelligence services must be having a good old belly laugh.
***
Those photos of him on Sarko's shoulders at Petra were truly horrific.
I want to know what Sarko was doing in Jordan last weekend. Was it a state visit with the object of talks with the king or was that just an alibi for a visit to Petra with Carla? Remember that Petra was where Cécilia was first seen in public with Richard Attias. Whose plane did he travel on this time?
***
"Sarkozy, le pied sur l'accélérateur" - which must be referring to the rhetoric!
They ('Le Figaro') seemed to be saying French society could not bear a 'therapie de choc', so what's 'rupture' meant to mean then?
***
that sarko aspires to hang out with this degenerate bunch is the real tragedy. so nouveau riche!
***
Sarkosi is very clever yes, but totally lacking "l'étoffe du chef". These people need therapy.
***
This saga is getting too creepy for words. Someone in the blog mentioned that Cee 1 was first seen with Attias in Petra, so Sarkozy goes there with Cee 2. Eery physical resemblance between the two. Sarkozy gave both women exactly the same ring. This is turning into Vertigo, or Obsession (by Brian de Palma). The man is quite mad, so is Cee 1 and maybe Cee 2. I'm refraining from any further commentary on him henceforth, hope he gets his reforms done quickly, and then OUT.
***
Now here's some real news: Sarko asked Jacques Attali to head a working group to recommend measures to stimulate economic growth. He bravely promised to implement those recommendations whatever they might be. The group has now reported its conclusion.
Besides scrapping the administrative 'departements' Attali recommends loosening immigration restrictions to provide a younger and vigourous workforce.
Let's see how Sarko keeps his promise whilst not upsetting his ex-Front National supporters.
***
Sarkozy (like him or not) is fascinating/terrifying
***
'la politique de la civilisation', if Guaino has explained to Sarko how this squares with the 'rupture' with the ideas of May '68.
***
Sarko has an impressionante long list of people he has betrayed. Don't confuse an ability to steal other's ideas or to say what people want to hear with honesty, or you might feel cheap and all used up in the morning.
***
Beware. The more froth is spewed by the media-industrial complex, the more easily the pockets of distracted citizens can be picked.
This admonition comes to you from an American
***
"un président désinvolte, qui improvise, exhibitionniste".
where does that break French law. Will S. Royal go to jail?
exhibitionnist!!!

[azloon/robert furlong]

Ah, Valentin, "slippin' and a slidin,' peepin' and a hidin,' been told long time ago" in the words of the inimitable Little Richard.

now calling sarko a gangser is not illegal, just a matter of unbringing and manners. and only applicable to non-french.

you're a master of the tactical rhetorical escape, a veritable french Houdini.

[isobel]

To Dot King
Dorothy (Dot) Cotton is a character in EastEnders.
(for non British readers EastEnders is a long running BBC soap opera)

[dot king]

Thanks Isobel, it's a full 16 years since I saw an episode of "EastEnders" (not been in the uK since 1991) - though I saw a "Coronation Street Omnibus" over the New Year - full of "des djeunesss" only about 4 originals that I recognised.
Nothing like a spot of nostalgia to cheer you up, is there? BTW there's a card showing a picture of the Rovers Return on my office wall.

[dot king]

"Ah, Valentin, "slippin' and a slidin,' peepin' and a hidin,' been told long time ago" in the words of the inimitable Little Richard.
you're a master of the tactical rhetorical escape, a veritable french Houdini."
(Azloon/Robert Furlong)

Yessss! like a one-eyed cat peepin' in a seafood-store
I think that was Bill Haley?

Mais chez ces gens-là, Monsieur
On ne chante pas,
On ne chante pas
On crie
(plagiarised Brel)

[dot king]

according to my Larousse:

"gangster: n.m. (mot amér). Membre d'une bande de malfaiteurs."

could apply to any government anywhere really

[Daniel Strohl]

Rocket,

"You, like Daniel believe us guest workers should shut our mouths and "subir"

No, not at all, Rocket; since you are no more sheltered in anonymity (and Dot never was, contrary to my erroneous and somewhat stupid belief), you are free - as far as I am concerned - to open your mouth as wide as you want and to protest as much as you deem it necessary.

You are even free to write a letter to the President or the Prime Minister, if things go too far in your opinion.

You may have noticed that I am not a fan of Mitterrand (and I can tell you that I never was - you can trust me). During his second "septennat", fed up with a few things which I did really dislike, I wrote him a letter - of course polite and "respectueuse dans la forme", in which I told him, as a free citizen in a democratic country, what I liked and what I disliked.

I got, may be 10 days later, a (very polite) answer of his "chef de cabinet", telling me that the President had been informed.

Approx. 6 months later, we got a "contrôle fiscal" (we were still in activity at that time and our business was reasonably profitable, although honest and transparent). May be this "contrôle fiscal" was a coincidence, may be not. However, due to my mostly technical background, I am somewhat reluctant to believe in coincidences...

[Valentin]

LOL Azloon, your manifest goodwill in interpretting my posts is exceedingly flattering :)

No Sir, I'm no Houdini. From a legal viewpoint, "gangster" is an allegation of criminal activity, punished by law all over the free world if unproved - including the United States.

From a good upbringing viewpoint, when I go live at someone else's for a while, I don't judge nor insult his personal quirks, his wife or his children. It's a matter of civility, of education, the first 7 years, as they say. Either you have it, or you don't.

[Valentin]

What you don't realize, Dorothy, is that when you call Sarko a gangster like you did, or if I'd live in the UK and call the Queen a bitch, that has no consequence on those personalities.
It says something about us though, about our level of discussion, our self-control, about our education in the end.

You may say whatever you please about myself, take me seriously or not, I could not care less.
On the other hand, your gangster post is insulting, completely unjustified (besides unproved), showing pettiness and lack of common sense and civility.
It is YOU who say this about YOURSELF, no matter what we may reply afterwards.

[dot king]

"It's a matter of civility, of education, the first 7 years, as they say."
Are you now criticising my parents? How far are you taking this? Would you like a family tree? Going back how many hundred years?

There is a very eminent French pédopscychiatre who would disagree quite strongly with your comment - but I expect you'd rubbish him too.

You obviously have a blind-spot as regards anything I might post, but just go back a little way and look at the Larousse dictionary definition of "gangster" - or perhaps you know better than a major dictionary?
"Gangster" is a noun not an activity, I'd have to accuse the man of "gangsterisme" and even then it's not sure that it would be all that controversial
Can't you let that drop now, no-one agrees with you. Slinging insults at me in that bratty and prissy way is only going to make you look more and more foolish.

All this mystery about your origins/background - I don't care one way or the other what either is, was, or what you've become, but I think I've got you sussed.
I'm sure you have perfect manners BTW.

[Valentin]

Dot,
If you wanted this to end, you would have given your Alice Street explanation from the beginning with a little apology in case any French here might have had a problem, and that was it.
You asked Daniel if he still supports this gangster president and the degrading, derogatory meaning was obvious.

You not understanding that some French could be pissed off at your being a Brit living in France and insulting the French president in such gross manner, it's your own education problem.

[john o'doe]

Dot, as a thoroughly integrated fellow Brit living and paying my taxes in France for almost 20 years now and with no sense of being a 'guest' here because as a European citizen I have a perfect right to live here, although I regret I have no right to vote in national elections (who was it said 'no taxation without representation'?), I have a suggestion for you. Sarkozy has already declared with disarming candour that he's not in politics to make money but once he's out of office that will be when he'll stuff his pockets full - like his pal Tony Blair.
So why don't you retract the word 'gangster' and replace it by 'bandit' ?

[millier marc]

big new!!!!!!!
Carla might be pregnant.
the circus carry on...

[dot king]

Valentin, you really do lack basic intelligence don't you? I had no idea when I applied the word "gangster" to Sarkozy that it would cause such a furore. It is such an ordinary, innocuous word even by the French definition in the Larousse, but of course we all (I mean all the nations represented on this blog) have to bow to your superior knowledge of these things.

I will most certainly not apologise in advance in case any French people on this blog might be "pissed off" as you so elegantly put it. I even put it to you, that you should apologise in advance for the thoroughly dishonest manner in which you are going to argue. For the insults you are about to dish out in the complacent certainty of your moral and intellectual rectitude. You won't do so though, will you?

You are really very fortunate that people as intelligent and tolerant as Maggie and Lily want to exchange views with you, that they take you seriously, "respect" you even.

And if we are going to be REALLY frank about this, and here I WEIGH MY WORDS and MEAN what I say, for what it is.
Valentin, you might hold French nationality, you might have passed your language and values tests, maybe you can sing "La Marseillaise" from start to finish (so can I , not many French people can), maybe you support PSG.
You might have a piece of paper that says you have French nationality for whatever reason you wanted or needed it.
But you are ONLY French by ADOPTION, you did not acquire FRENCHNESS. You do not have "natural French superiority". You have EXAGGERATED mauvaise foi, you have exaggerated EVERYTHING YOU THINK TO BE FRENCH in order to belong. It's rather sad really.

You are still whoever or whatever it was you wanted to shake off by this acquisition.
(I suggest you read "L'illusionniste" by Hari Kunzru ("The impressioniste" in English) if you want to see this explained - but beware, you need to have a sense of humour - they didn't dish that out with the nationality papers either, apparently.)

I remind you, if national property is the name of the game, this blog is in an English language newspaper, the articles are in English on French subjects. Might I suggest that you are simply a guest on this blog, that you should be careful not to "piss off" any of the British bloggers. Be careful.

As with the "French culture dies again" thread I will not now answer any more of you comments. You have nothing to contribute which could possibly be of interest to me. I've got your number, OK? The wraps are off.

One last thing, in the late 1970's there was a British pop singer called Gary Glitter who had a big big, gi-normous hit, loved by dancing teeny-boppers, that went:
"D'ya wanna be in my gang, my gang, my gang -
D'ya wanna be in my gang, oh yeah"

If this is not high-minded enough for you, the try the Montagues and the Capulets and think of the opening scene, either the play, or the ballet, or the opera - same difference.
Seen like that "gangster" is almost a compliment.

[dot king]

John O'Doe,
We're in the same boat then, watch out for torpedoes, until now they mostly had my name on them - thanks for sticking your head above the parapet - mixed metaphor I know - these are flying torpedoes!
:)

[Pierre Bernardi]

Dorothy, my remark on saving costs is out of place on your list. You seemed to think my comment was ironic - it wasn't. I believe that wealth is created by private individuals. Reduce taxes and social charges, privatise as far as possible and France will soon be on its feet. The urgent thing is to get the country out of its Keynesian mold, typified by the attitude that the government needs to do more.

The kind of things the government needs not to do:
1) not to hire lots of new civil servants as the existing ones gradually retire;
2) not to tinker with taxes for ideological purposes, replacing for instance social charges on salaries by social VAT;
3) not to get involved in discussions between employer and union representatives over new work contracts - if they can't agree, they can't agree, and the legal framework will continue as is (Dominique de Villepin deserved his rebuff over the CNE);
4) not to lose any sleep over left-wing accusations that election promises have not been kept.

[D]

Ok Valentin,

You should be a little happy, reading the news, hypocrisy and half measures are getting a beating these days. Sarkosi is enjoying his job, as he should, it’s been an hard slog getting there and he has always been consistent in his love of power. France need change, desperately, but he seem to have confuse the transparency of power we need so much with blasé impulsive-indulgence power allows, we already had a Roi-Soleil thanks. He can talk the talk, but can he walk the walk, without tripping on his talons?

http://www.courrierinternational.com/article.asp?obj_id=81421

[azloon]

[No Sir, I'm no Houdini. From a legal viewpoint, "gangster" is an allegation of criminal activity, punished by law all over the free world if unproved - including the United States.] Valentin

it's frustrating arguing with you because you don't respond to information that's presented to you.

i told you that calling a u.s. public figure a 'gangster' is NOT punishable by law, although a CIVIL lawsuit is a possibility.

even then, unless it is proved that the accuser makes these comments with 'actual malice' and 'reckless disregard' for truth (of which they are aware) the suit has virtually no chance of success.

proving 'actual malice' and 'reckless disregard of the truth' are virtually impossible to demonstate, particularly in the case of an individual accuser.

please don't repeat your mistaken belief that calling someone a gangster in the u.s. punishable by criminal or civil law. it isn't, except in the rarest of instances, usually involving print or broadcast media.

bad manners, perhaps.

[dot king]

Pierre Bernardi - i think you must be answering the wrong person here, i don't recall any exchange between us on the points you make
unless I've missed something . . .
oh, I see, you mean the copied and pasted comments list? Sorry if you think I misused it, no intention - i thought it was a comment about how Sarkozy hasn't yet kept his promise. no matter, there was enough other stuff on the list to make my point, not that it reached its target. :)

Not to worry Dorothy, I