French reverence for old lefties

I was amused by the coincidence of three news items that tell you about France's nostalgic fondness for old-style communism.   

Down in Montpellier, Georges Frêche, the local political baron, is trying to buy a seven-ton statue of Vladimir Lenin and put it in a prominent place in the Mediterranean city.

In Paris, the media are full of respectful, even affectionate, tributes to Pierre Lambert, an "historic" French Trotskyite leader who has just died.

Also in Paris, Danièlle Mitterrand, the 84-year-old widow of the late president, is about to sell at auction his clothes and souvenirs. A prime item is a bizarre bag made from a whole baby crocodile that was a gift from Fidel Castro. 

Frêche, who is president of the Languedoc Roussillon region and also of the Montpellier area council, wants to spend between 150,000 and 250,000 tax-payers' dollars on the  statue of the founding hero of the Soviet Union. He spotted the bronze likeness of the late dictator in a street in Seattle, Washington, on a recent visit (picture above).

"Lenin stands among the greatest men of the 20th century, in the same way as Mao Tse Tung or General de Gaulle," says Frêche, an old provocateur who was kicked out of the Socialist party last year for making racist remarks.

"Certainly, Lenin committed mistakes, but he is part of history and Russia is now rehabilitating Stalin," he told le Figaro. Frêche says that he is pleased that he has caused a diverting fuss with his statue idea: "We're not going to go on talking about Carla Bruni's rear until the end of time."

Unlike Russia, France still has many monuments to the Bolshevik hero, in the form of streets and sports stadiums named after him in communist-run areas. Once a week, I walk up la Rue Lenine in the eastern suburb of Bagnolet for my Monday night band practice. The memory of Leon Trotsky, Stalin's rival, lives on in the form of three feuding parties that are committed to the overthrow of bourgeois democracy. Olivier Besancenot, the 33-year-old head of the Communist Revolutionary League, and former presidential candidate, is one of the most popular leftwing stars in France.

Lambert, a code name for Pierre Boussel (picture), was the figure-head of the LCR's sworn enemies, the Workers' Party. This could be dismissed as a dotty sect except that it has played a powerful clandestine role in the trade union movement, via the Force Ouvrière union, and it used to have its moles high in the state apparatus. The most famous among these was Lionel Jospin, the Socialist who was Prime Minister from 1997-2002. Jospin was a secret Lambertiste at least until 1981 when he became chief of the Socialist party on the election of President Mitterrand. Jospin, in retirement since losing the presidential election of 2002 to Jacques Chirac,  has never spoken of regretting his Trotskyite past.   

Which brings us to Madame Mitterrand, who shows no sign of losing her burning faith in Fidel and the supposedly socialist revolution that his island has endured for nearly half a century. She is selling off François's clothes and souvenirs at the Drouot auction house to raise money for her foundation, which supports the "people's struggle" in various parts of the world. The lots include the late Socialist's Hermès dressing gown, his Church's shoes, his bespoke suits and the fedora hats and red scarves that were his trade-mark.

All right, Frêche's Lenin stunt has sparked local indignation, but no-one is being impertinent about the antique creeds of Danièlle Mitterrand and Pierre Lambert. The only world-class lefty who is under fire in France this week is Tony Blair. The Socialists are furious that President Sarkozy is promoting the creator of New Labour for the job of first President of the European Union in 2009. As I have mentioned before, le blairisme is a dirty word for French leftists, who see the former Prime Minister as a traitor to their cause.   Some of Sarko's camp, including Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, the former president, don't want a President Blair either, but I'll keep that for a later post.

[Le chapeau Mitterrand]

Comments

[Pierre Bernardi]

This is more like it!

It should be possible to convince most of France's socialists that in the absence of world central planning, the 35-hour week was a bad idea. I don't hear the Chinese crying that the success of Mao's revolution depends on longer lunch breaks or compensation for donning uniforms (though that last example actually makes sense from a taylorist perspective - productivity requires measurement).

Socialists, like capitalists, break down into two camps: the beancounters and the visionaries. Montpellier with its Bofil architecture looks like Ceaucescu's Bucharest. So we know where Frêche stands in terms of ego.

[Pierre]

The socialists are unhappy because Tony Blair is a freetrader, unlike nearly all French politicians.
Charles, you haven't post about Sarkozy's new taxes on electronic devices for financing the public broadcaster, and the "Congrès" held at Versailles for a vote about the EU.

[Because I'm busy writing about Perrier water and a legal dispute for the newspaper. Can't cover everything, Pierre. I'll try to get back onto these. CB]

[Blendi Progri]

As for the price- may I suggest to Comrade Freche –on the unlikely event that he reads our blog – that $200 000, is too much, even for a Lenin. Way to much, Volodya would be turning in his grave if he heard the price. He may even call it ridiculous.

In Russia, Mr/ F. can find a discarded statue for less and may get thanks for taking it away.
I also remember that a rich guy ( in either Latvia or Littuania am not sure ) rounded up so many statues that he now has a park full of them…he may let one go even for £10.000.
------
CB, many times I`m amazed with the apparent ease that you wade through even the most intricate aspects of French life, but this time I am stunned. Lol.
How do you know everything about French Socialists and its whole history…

Have you gone native?
----------------
In the hope that I am not intruding and on a serious note, may I ask Charles, How long have you lived in France? Is there a short work realted biography of you that I can read online (a link or something)?

And how many more years do you plan to stay there. Is that totally up to you (I mean you can ask to leave) or does it depend on The Times decision alone? I say it again- as a fan- hopefully this isnt intrusive to you.

[Thank you Blendi. I love living in France and reporting on the country. I am a récidiviste, having started my working life here as a trainee for Reuters when Giscard was president and then come back several times between other assignments in America and Russia and other places. My three children learned French before English and France is my home, but I don't know about the future. CB]

[John Gregory Flinn]

"As I have mentioned before, le blairisme is a dirty word for French leftists, who see the former Prime Minister as a traitor to their cause."

The French left have not yet realized that their version of socialism is drifting outside of the new 'received interpretation' of democratic politics, i.e. a narrow centrist spectrum based on effective consensus.
Blair's (only) success was to drag the British Labour party into this centrist spectrum - albeit left of centre.

The obvious success of the market economy over the state-planned system, has rendered the old socialist dogmas - often still grandly asserted by the likes of Hollande, Fabius and others - almost politically incorrect.
This has even reached the point where I understand the Education ministry is looking into allegations of anti-enterprise texts in school books!

The demise of the USSR, Eastern Europe and Comintern, and the unobtrusive shift of China away from communism have all reinforced this fundamental change.
Only the PS, North Korea and Cuba remain to come to terms with it.

PS. Your pic of Lambert reminds me of how Trotsky might have looked had he survived the ice-pic....!

[dot king]

"compensation for donning uniforms"
Pierre Bernardi

Is this a reference to the item I saw on the news yesterday that the Prudhomme Court (workers' rights) agreed that postal workers should have the time taken to get into their uniform included in work time?
They were claiming 10 mins'changing time, the court agreed, but reduced it to 6.

[Jorg Andersen]

As an Austrian, I have strong ancestral memories of the horror of Soviet occupation. I was not born, but my family could barely speak about the atrocities committed by the Red Army -- in the name of the worker's paradise. We were luckily, miraculously, saved by a deal that led to the Russians' withdrawal. For me it is incomprehensible, sickening, that people in a civilised country like France could revere the criminals who inflicted all this misery. How can the French president's wife believe that Fidel Castro is anything but an evil dictator who has made his country suffer for decades under the false idea of socialism ? How can people in consider for one second erecting a statue to Vladimir Lenin, a vile psychopath who killed thousands and whose actions led to the execution and deaths of millions under his side-kick Stalin and the slavery of half a continent in 1945? France is a mystery to me.

[Valentin]

France still lives in the 19th century, when workers were indeed exploited, there was no social security etc. It's almost romantic. Blum, Jaurès, and for some even Trotski and Lenin are romantic heroes who helped save the working class.
Even if most workforce today is in services, many still see the society as organized in classes (same ones as in 1900), have a tendency to compassion that often gets overboard, and it's almost politically incorrect to speak differently.

[azloon]

i am quite certain that the statue of lenin, if sold to Freche, will be going to the only potential buyer extant in the non-communist world.

and, despite this, the seller would seem to be getting 'top dollar' for it. so, in addition to living in a past century, this prominent politico is a financial imbecile. sort of sums up the state of present-day france, doesn't it?

echoing Jorg Anderson, how many brave soldiers and innocent civilians died for the causes that lenin, and these other 'leftist' monsters, contrived?

sometimes reading about french going-ons is enough to produce jaw-dropping stupefaction. this story is one of those instances.

CB, there is a regrettable hint of romantic nostalgia in your piece. these guys didn't run parisian bordellos. they killed people.

[Marguerite.]

J'ai vecu a Moscou, du temps du communisme et j'aurais bien achete une statue de Lenine si elles avaient ete a vendre. Je n'ai fait que photographier un grand nombre de celles que j'ai vues et il y en avait partout...Il est bien , Vladimir, avec sa petite barbiche, sa casquette, et toujours un pied en avant, conquerant!

[david]

Lenin was a murderer,robber,and a hypocrite.The communists killed more people than the nazis. anyone who honors him is a fool and liar.

[Mike]

"Unlike Russia"? I think you'll find that almost every town in Russia has a Lenin statue, and that they are still to be found in prominent places in both St Petersburg and Moscow. Wouldn't mind one myself actually...

[john o'doe]

See the contrast: American teacher recognises Lenin statue as work of art and remortgages his own home to pay for it.
Montpellier's local political baron, does not dig into his own pocket but naturally expects taxpayers to foot the bill for his whimsical idea of bringing said statue back across the Atlantic.

[Pierre Bernardi]

Here is a list of left-wing parisian metro stations:

Ideas:
- République
- Convention
- Nation
- Assemblée Nationale

Martyrs:
- Malakoff Rue Etienne Dolet
- Louise Michel
- Robespierre
- Charles Michels
- Corentin Celton
- Boulogne Jean Jaurès
- Jaurès
- Corentin Cariou
- Gabriel Péri
- Guy Môquet
- Marx Dormoy
- Jacques Bonsergent
- Villejuif Léo Lagrange

Artists:
- Louis Aragon
- Anatole France
- Victor Hugo
- Emile Zola
- Pablo Picasso
- Raymond Queneau

Symbols:
- Le Kremlin-Bicêtre
- Stalingrad
- Bastille

Leaders:
- Bolivar
- Garibaldi
- Boulevard Massena
- Denfert-Rochereau
- Colonel Fabien
- Ledru-Rollin
- Etienne Marcel
- Jules Joffrin
- Marcel Sembat
- Barbès Rochechouart
- Villejuif Paul Vaillant-Couturier
- Louis Blanc

38 out of 298 stations.
They have good publicists.

Obviously France is more political than Britain: Charles Dickens is often referred to for his social analysis, but never as a leftist.

PS: quel est l'intrus? prizes in US dollars.

[Daniel Strohl]

Pierre,

Massena

I have a small preference for Euros.

[BrummyDoug]

Lenin was an evil mass murderer - he knew what he was doing and millions died on his orders.
Anybody for a statue of Herr Hitler or Pol Pot ?? Only if it has artistic merit, of course.

[Valentin]

"Il est bien , Vladimir, avec sa petite barbiche, sa casquette, et toujours un pied en avant, conquerant"

LOL Papi Joska est pas mal non plus (quoique plus difficilé à dénicher) avec sa petite stature, ses bottes usées et sa fière moustache à la José Bové :))

The French are retro. It's a fashion thing. That explains it all.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/31/1072546581407.html?from=storyrhs

[azloon]

Robert M.

too bad that not more of anglo-saxon financial culture has been absorbed by the french.

from bloomberg news today:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=acDlozxrk7iE&refer=home

[thinknoworpaylater]

PIERRE B. - Taylorism is alive and well in soft-ware. There was a news item on B.B.C. news (Radio 4 ) about the possibility of monitoring employees totally. A technique used previously for fighter pilots which involves checking a range of bodily functions (blood pressure etc. and even facial expressions ) for those who work on computers is being developed. J.G.FLYNN - The obvious success of the market aconomy over the State planned system etc. Reports of my death are much exaggerated as the man said. Capitalist triuphalism is excessive and and in fact there are now systems for planning inside I.T. Its already being used by big companies (Sainsburys) to manage the business. Their isnt any reason why such systems cant be used in *planned* economies. Predicting demand is now quite normal for capitalist organisations and (ideally) controlling it. DAVID - think what the Tsars did even with limited technology .Remember Georges Freche is now expelled from the P.S. for racist remarks (as C.B. said) In what sense is he a socialist anyway?

[Montpellier's observer]

Mr Freche has done a good job in Montpellier, trying to make it a bigger city than its real size. The urban policy he led has always been served by an over-mediatization of the city. Now, the city is one of the most dynamic in France, after discrete cities like Toulouse and Rennes. But as cities such as Toulouse or Marseille are far behind (they dont share the same dimensions at all), and as the exceptional demographic growth is a bit coughing, Mr. Freche tries to make big mediatic noise to make his little city standing in the top of the national charts.
The Montpellier's over-growth last decades to the detriment of its rzgion makes it a quite big city, unable to share a strong identity and with no strong historic background, like Marseille, Toulouse or Bordeaux. Even Nîmes, its poor neighboor, has much more "cachet" and soul.
People migrate there, like into these Floridian gated cities, with no city projet, except mass urban planning with some gadget innovations Freche ridiculously makes a great song and dance about.
Except for third age retireds or unemployed migrants, urban make up is not enough... even with "lenifying" propositions...

Oh làlà, c'est vide !

[thinknoworpaylater]

Pierre B. - Maybe thats because Dickens never was a leftist.His dates (1812-1970) indicate that he was ahead of his time in the U.K. insofar as Marxs writings were probably not available to him. His portrayal of the trade union organiser in Hard Times is patronising. Theoretically there is something seriously lacking but the description of social and commercial relations is powerful, hence his importance to French readers.

[Blendi Progri]

You are welcomed Charles and many thanks for your reply. We all are great fans (each, in its own way) of your writings about France, even the ones that at times appear unhappy with a singular (or few) subject(s) other ways, there would be little point on coming here. Every-ones presence in this blog in a way validates a plain truth – mainly that you write with compassion, integrity and style about France, and so we like to read what you write! As simple as that.Keep up the good work.

I particularly loved the word you used : récidiviste!
... as it conjures to me an image of you that despite being deported many times, you often find a way to get back into the country. Again and again. LOL.
-------------------------------.

Devil, himself (herself?) cant protect Lenin`s reputation, but I can`t help but note that Lenin wasn’t that bad a guy, to start with. In a sense, that contrary to many vile–sadistic individuals; who are born Mad&Bad and derive pleasure from causing Pain onto others; he was a good guy, a very good one, till he turned bad-guy.

Len came from a normal and loving family, was exceptionally intelligent, a keen sportsman, good swimmer, well read, knew classics and could read them in original ( greek & latin) was a good chess player too
(It was Lenin who said the famous quote: Chess as a game is very serious, but taken seriously its only a game) and a very compassionate young man towards anyone.

I don’t subscribe to the theory that mainly says : This guy (any guy) went off the rails as his Mama didn’t love him or society was mean to him, or this and that, But few events in Lenin`s life were extremely dramatic; for any young person they could be earth-shatering.

After his father died and his Brother hanged ( part of a conspiracy to kill the tzar) his Sister sent in internment, Lenin changed dramatically. His world was brutally broken.

Many a young guy at a time lent his sympathies to the Anarchists, on the other hand, Lenin, by accident of history, and full of passionate hate towards the regime that Killed his brother, started to read a certain Mr. Marx and interpeting his sayings a bit overzealously.
Its very simplified - but- Marx envisaged a world where the proletarian revolution would erupt simultaneously in all the world, Lenin blidly tried to adapt this to s single country (albeit a big one) and few other nutters around the world tried to adopt it in ever smaller and smaller ones.

Pure vengeance drove him to become what he did become later on.
I have a feeling that he wouldn`t have done what he did in other circumstances.

Lenin`s case later on, for me, is a case of “power corrupts” and it makes people brutal (as it does with nearly everyone) and if hanging on to it requires brutality, then so be it.

However early on he acknowledged the merits of capitalism in trying to intertwine aspects of it with social policies, started a great reform trying to make everyone read and write, introduced several laws to protect the Jews (a particularly severe problem at the time, as Jews in Tsarists Russia experienced so many pogroms and their life was a real misery) also he tried to right few other inequalities- not the least on paper. Mainly equality of the women, equality of different races (as communism in general, for all its grave faults neither in theory nor on practice never encouraged Racism towards anyone, towards Asians, Blacks etc) everyones right to free education, healthcare etc – that at the times were massive policies. How it started, continued, degenerated and ended later, we all know it by now, just wanted to point out that Lenin is someone that started good and ended bad.

Later when he came to Power - its documented that he wrote orders and gave quotas in how many to kill from this or that strata of society (like kulaks etc) & he became a very bitter and vicious man. The iron fist of proletariat must be used to crush this and that- he never stoped ranting. His philosophy then became the same one of any dictator, be it a communist, a nazi or a bathist one, thats how megalomania and irrationality come to the fore.
----
But maybe some consideration could be also given to the fact that if it wasnt for communism,as an antagonistic mechanism and as an ideology and system contrary to, the capitalism might have not shown its compasionate side for a long, long time (like in healthcare/education/charity/racial equality and the like) and many things accomplished now, would still be a distant dream.

Communism was a disaster, but a disaster (despite the pain it brought with it) that was neccessary for the humanity, to see what it is possible to accomplish or not, amongst human being,it affirmed the limits of human race and it spurned others not simply to disagree with its theory, but to show and prove what is the better way.

We are to near it to be really objective, the evil period is still raw, as many of us have lived and suffered the effects of communism and its policies, but in next few centuries history may give even Lenin some merits.
-----.
I better stop now, I havent been very often on this blog for the last two months-v.very busy- but have made up for it in last two days posts` alone. ;)

[Pierre Bernardi]

Thanks TKPL, I noticed that report on Microsoft's employee frustration spying software on tol (in fact I commented on it, musing on whether it would detect frustration caused by MS's own products).

Azloon, thanks for that link, I went to the petite école française and the Lycée, and know the French bookshop on Bute street well (this was over twenty years ago). And a recent return from St Pancras took 2h05!

[Pierre Bernardi]

Daniel, no not Massena, though he was a turncoat. But you're warm.

[Pierre Bernardi]

Think, Dickens lived through mai 68'! If he had a metro station named after him he'd be on the list.

[chorche]

Hold on for a second, my dear true democrats.

Had it not been for Stalin, there would be no Hollywood films about WW2, no ''2 World Wars and 1 World Cup'' chanting, and no ''grandeur'' either. And this blog would probably be written in German.

Not saying Iosif was anything else than a mad murderer, but let's not forget the russians did most of the (real) fighting and the (real) sacrifices in WW2. Their only problem has been that the anglo-saxons are much better at marketing.

[dot king]

Dickens (1812-1970)??

Yes, he must have seen a lot of hard-liners from all sides in his
long lifetime!

[Rocket]

Look Chorche

9,387 Russians soldiers buried on the shores of Normandy

http://www.abmc.gov/images/no1w.jpg

And many more elsewhere

"Had it not been for Stalin"

and other communists if I may add.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

[Deedee]

"Had it not been for Stalin, there would be no Hollywood films about WW2"

True. Had it not been for the US though, Eurasia would have been all communist now, and this blog might have been written in Cyrillic...

[Valentin]

"Quel est l'intrus ?"

- Etienne Marcel, of course ! You certainly cannot call his a left wing movement !

[azloon]

Pierre Bernardi --

i take it you aren't going back.

did you attend sarko's recruiting session?

[Pierre Bernardi]

As a member of the Third Estate, Etienne Marcel led a revolt against Philippe VI, championed reform and sought to control the monarchy. He was murdered for his efforts and should therefore be on the list of martyrs to the cause. On the other hand, he almost handed Paris to the English.

No Valentin, there is a more conclusive exception.

[e.purgold]

Chorche must be French. Tell that to my 2 uncles and all of our nation's relatives and others who died fighting in WW2 -many of them in France on behalf of people who did little to help. This blog is usually OK, even tempered, entertaining but that does not mean that crassness need go unpunished. Get a history book Chorche. Don't insult people for no reason at all. Stalin did not win the war. Hitler lost it. But that's probably ok...... enough.

[Valentin]

Nah, Marcel supported Navarre, involved himself in high-ground politics.. he never meant to fight for the many and the poor. I would have also said Republique, ancient idea with no particular connection to the left wing, but that's too obvious. You should have said 3 exceptions :)

[Valentin]

"russians did most of the (real) fighting and the (real) sacrifices in WW2"

They didn't die for freedom, but for Russia and for Stalin's glory, and replaced one occupation with another.

[Max Pronin]

The memory of Lenin is alive and well in Russia too and he is certainly much more prominent here than in France, perhaps you should have checked before writing (but when do you, Times hacks, do that?). In every city, town and village there is at least one Lenin street, in most, many more. Even Moscow's Metro is still named officially after Lenin as are countless stadia, universities and even swimming pools around the country. And his birthday is still marked with a day of voluntary work to clean neighborhoods. We do remember and love Lenin. Nothing wrong with him, at least he was not Anglo-Saxon.

[Well, Max, this "Times hack" knows a little about the subject, having gone out on subotnik days to do my thing for Lenin in Moscow in my youth (I lived six years in the Soviet Union). I suspect from your tone that you might be a little young to know about those times. CB]

[Valentin]

Many of us are not anglosaxon, Mr. Pronin, but we too can be less informed than you are. Could you please explain to us what good Lenin did, what did he give Russia, to make you proud?

[Rocket]

Max

"And his birthday is still marked with a day of voluntary work to clean neighborhoods. We do remember and love Lenin. Nothing wrong with him, at least he was not Anglo-Saxon."

I wish we could get the French to do a day's voluntary work for the elderly.

PS - You wouldn't happen to be a bit on the Putin "Russian Nationalistic skinhead" side would you?

Oh yeah! well you may have had Vladimir Lenin but we had our John Lennon. I'll take our Lennon any day over your Lenin.

(Charles, for the next couple of weeks I would have my food and drink tasted before I eat and please check your back on rainy days for wandering umbrellas.)

[Daniel Strohl]

Pierre,

Your "intrus" could be Robespierre - he had "un nom à particule", was a "bourgeois", tried to promote "un être suprême" - enough to get him "à la lanterne" (not La Lanterne à Versailles, of course ...).

Another possibility is the "Assemblée Nationale" - for the moment being (let us hope this will continue for a while), this august body is right leaning, even if it is geographically located on the left bank ...

If it is none of the above, "je donne ma langue au chat" - I don't know the English equivalent ...

[Monika]

It is true from my experience that there is - compared to (Western) Germany at least - still a significant part of the French society that have indeed a sort of admiration towards those communist icons.

Interesting considering that French society has quite often a very elitist approach.

For those capable of understanding German I put in a link about a talk on elites and elites generation in different countries and particularly France. I should nonetheless hint that the talker bases his talk on statistical examinations and doesn't seem to draw from personal experience.

http://mp3.swr.de/swr2/aula/swr2_20071209_eliten_in_europa.6444m.mp3

[Lily]

Pierre Bernardi:

N A T I O N - would be the one that sticks out.

[christopher muir]

Blendi Progri -

Interesting post. If anything it demonstrates how circumstances change. Having visited communist countries during the Cold War, I have only bad memories about them - except for the charm of many people who were unable to speak freely. I hope that the present economic mess doesn't mean that some sort of
cross-road lies ahead. If it does, as if in a Cocteau film, those old Soviet statues' faces might start smiling.

[Lily]

Pierre Bernardi: If it is not 'nation', would 'Assemblée Nationale' be an idea? Isn't it rather an institution?

[dot king]

"je donne ma langue au chat"
(Daniel)
I think the expression you need is "I'll eat my hat".
If you were from the North of England, and weren't in the least bit hungry, then
"I'll go to the top of our stairs" is a good substitute.

[Actu75]

"France still lives in the 19th century, when workers were indeed exploited..."
And of course now they were granted social security and others welfares (not to be confused with the régimes spéciaux), nowadays they are no longer exploited uh?
One more of these golden clichés on this blog where posts often would turn a moderate leftist reformer -say Rocard style- to turn back to a Lambertist dialectic.

[Pierre Bernardi]

Valentin, Etienne Marcel stood against the tyrant and was therefore o b j e c t i v e l y on the left. He also stood against France, and was therefore o b j e c t i v e l y on the side of England.

To your second point (also answering Daniel and Lily): nation and republic secure the rights of the people against the arbitrary. A democracy is structurally left-wing, so you had better vote as far right as possible if you want things to stay as they are (if this answers your point Azloon). It's not a coincidence that République and Nation are in the east of Paris. As the principal tangible achievement of the revolution, the Assmeblée nationale is obviously on the left.

But you're all on the right track.

[thinknoworpaylater]

O.K O.K. DOT. But as you know typos occur. Isee you didnt challenge the point - Dickens couldnt be *leftist* (whatever that means) because he was too early. However I repeat he is patronising to the Trade Union movement and that is a limitation however much I love Dickens. Why cant you respond to the point rather than picking over typos? I think its small-minded of you though Ido respect your other posts. Remember those who can joke about about an error must have understood it already. Perhaps you have spent too much time in teaching (like me). Best wishes for the future. Affectionately yours etc.

[millier marc]

we are also so happy and proud about the new french reverence.
"CARLA BRUNI" is really nicer than Lenin or stlin or even bush or Blair!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pierre Bernardi]

Thinknoworpaylater - what about Saint-Simon, what about Fourier, what about Rousseau, what about Robespierre?

Dorothy, "je donne ma langue au chat" means "I give up". No metaphor available in English. "I'll eat my hat" means "Je veux bien me faire pendre" (slightly more dramatic).
What's your guess?

Lily, Daniel already posted "Assemblée nationale" (I'll pass on Robespierre, the most left-wing of the bunch, idealist and montagnard).

[Pierre Bernardi]

Let's get one exception out of the way: Louis Michel called herself an anarchist, and her flag was black. I had a moment of doubt. But if you can't include a self-sacrificing communard on a list of people's heroes, who can you include?

[stephen Bull]

A bit unfair to say the Georges was booted out for racial comments. He does tend to use colourful language but has said he did not mean his remarks that way and you will remember that at the time he was annoying the PS apparatchiks by his support for Segolene.
Moreover, he also wants to adorn Montpellier with a statue of Churchill along with the others you mention (and conceivably himself) in a kind of celebration of the great events of the twentieth century.

[stephen Bull]

A note about the price of Lenin. The statue was found in the (then) Czechoslvakia in 1990 when Lenin was not too popular and the American who took it to Seattle got it for nearly nothing. The people of Seattle were not happy to see Lenin standing on a roundabout and had it hidden away. THe price that the owner is demanding now shows that he no communist admirer but an excellent entrepreneur - wait long enough and you will find your sucker.

[Daniel Strohl]

Monika

Many thanks for your link. Highly interesting - very clear, even if I have some hearing problems making things somewhat difficult for me.

The anecdote regarding the water height of the Danube in Vienna is funny, but only at the first degree, of course. Such types of skimming of elites and brain forming them (not to say brain moulding them) may have led to some unexpected results, for which we (the French) still have to pay...

PS : In my opinion, Sarkozy is fully aware of the above problem – he has been a victim of it – and has composed his government accordingly; the latter is almost heretical with regard to the holy canons prevailing up to now . That is one of the reasons why he gets so much Flak fire, and not especially from the unions...

[Lily]

Okay, Pierre Bernardi, - would a duke be a leftie, too?

[Dillan]

The statue of Lenin in the Fremont neighborhood of Seattle is not even for sale. It is a piece of public art that has been in place for a very long time, and many residents would be upset to see it leave, not because of what Lenin stood for in his life but because the neighborhood would lose much of its character.

[Valentin]

Ah no, I'm sorry Pierre. Etienne was the son of a rich bourgeois, leader of Paris merchants (the MEDEF of those times, rather than one of our beloved unions) and when the future Charles V asked for money, Etienne had two conditions: liberation of Charles de Navarre, and participation to the Council - same trade passed by Dutch merchants with their lords: you want our money, you need to associate us to decisions.
Etienne sided with Charles' archi-rival, the king of Navarre, from the beginning, supported his claim to the crown and ended up killed by his own fellow-merchants who had had enough of his thirst for power. Helping the English was the cherry on the cake.

Also, your claim that democracy and republic are structurally left-wing is the typical interpretation of the Left, who's "on the side of the people", of the poor, while the others would support the elite, or the rich. That's a very sectarian viewpoint.
Being a democrat is not a leftwing value by definition. A rightwing is not by definition monarchist or otherwise sectarian, nor a defender of the rich in se. A rightwing democrat has not made any compromise on his principles.

The Republic existed way before our Left and represented the commonwealth, from the ancient Greece and Rome, passing through the swiss and italian republics. I don't think Pericle or the venetian councilors would agree with your definition.
The Right sees democracy as a commonwealth of autonomous individuals, each with his own property, talents, responsibility.
The Left sees it in a collectivist way, where the individual submits to society, who then decides for each and for everybody and has as final goal the end of private property, private autonomy and private responsibility. Not quite the same thing.

(btw constitutional monarchies can be quite democratic)

[dada]

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=0GUjmIrZRqk

[Sun]

""too bad that not more of anglo-saxon financial culture has been absorbed by the french.

from bloomberg news today:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=acDlozxrk7iE&refer=home

Posted by: azloon | 18 Jan 2008 13:16:31 ""

Stick your anglo-saxon financial culture where the sun don't shine.

Your article ,from a source that has always been anti-french, fails to mention that more British have emigrated to france than the reverse.

I wonder why...

British people have been setting up business all over France for a while now.

[azloon]

1. more english emigrating to france than vice versa.

2. bloomberg news is anti-french

Sun --

i believe you're mistaken on both points.

any citations/examples you can provide?

if english are 'setting up businesses all over france,' as you claim, they are doing it with great difficulty. gluttons for punishment i would call them. but they are eating well.

[Rocket]

Sun

"British people have been setting up business all over France for a while now."

I don't really think so. Most British people have come to France for retirement and up to recently free health care (with the money the earned in England) since the property market is less expensive in France and thanks to Ryanair, regions of France are well served in terms of air service

[QCD]

Azloon,

"i take it you aren't going back."

What do you mean? am I a rightie?

[Pierre Bernardi]

Valentin,

"Etienne had two conditions: liberation of Charles de Navarre, and participation to the Council - same trade passed by Dutch merchants with their lords: you want our money, you need to associate us to decisions."

This is the trade of democrats. In England, the same process led to the beheading of Charles II. The King's power should be constrained? Revolutionary!

But your defence of Etienne Marcel is laudable. I take him off the list of leaders and put him on the list of traitors.

Your doubts, so far, reflect my own. Any idea what the real, unarguable exception might be?

[Pierre Bernardi]

I can't believe that free healthcare thing (see post September 04, 2007). It's obviously discriminatory against EU citizens. When are you going to get a petition going Charles? Is there a court case? Has it passed through the conseil constitutionnel?

[Blendi Progri]

Chris Muir
Your argument is sensible and it won`t be only the statues that will smile; the nostalgic groups, the doomsayers and the `I told you so` brigade, will rub their hands in glee- if they fail. Many of these countries have great potential and I sincerely believe that better days will come for them.
------------------------------------------
And such is human nature that at times I`m afraid that failed experiments like communism may be repeated in one form or another, again in many parts of the world, in the near and far future.
What really scares me is not doctrine, neither the ideology, but half-baked demagogic ideas of thuggish leaders who use,or better, who `adapt` them in different situations.

These troublemaking-nuters (at times called dictators) always will try to adapt the Main ideas to their own quest for power. Nothing will stop them, only fear and brute force alone.

As we know /use the concept of Left and Righ;t the list from the Parisian Metro is accurate; but some people on them can`t simply be called Leftists.
i.e Victor Hygo…by a long stretch I cant call him a leftie, despite his fluctuating sympathies at one time or another.
Also I don’t see Garibaldi as a simple Leftie, anyhow, maybe we need another system of classification.

At times I think UK & France like each other so much so that they dont want others to know it; and not to show the world how enamorated they are at others` company, they just fight a little, as if to confuse the poor neighbours. So much comings and goings, borrowing and stealing, that one cant understand the history and culture of France, without studying the English one, and vice versa, and the modern civilisation is the better for it.

So many things could be debatable, but one thing is sure that I wont live to see the day when these two people will engage in a `Group Hug`. Lol.
Help? Yes, Gossip?—hmm the more the merrier, tasting and taking the best from one another- of course, but group hugss?? Never. ;)

But you never say never…

[Pierre Bernardi]

Erratum: Charles I.

[dot king]

"O.K O.K. DOT. But as you know typos occur"
I do apologise, it was by way of a small joke - are you French ? (again by way of a small joke)
No-owne knwso btetert thn ma abotu typso . . .
I have no wish to get involved in an argument as to whether Dickens was "left" or "right" it doesn't seem either interesting or relevant. I suspected the article would get bloggers straight back into that old argument, which is wahte everyone seems to want to change everything into - left vs right, good vs bad everything vs everything - sigh, yawn

[dot king]

"Dorothy, "je donne ma langue au chat" means "I give up". No metaphor available in English. "I'll eat my hat" means "Je veux bien me faire pendre" (slightly more dramatic).
What's your guess?"
I was taking Daniel to mean "I'd be very surprised if it weren't xxxx" whatever, that's why "I'll eat my hat" came to mind
seem to be upsetting everybody with interventions that are really quite meaningless and à propos of not much, ah well, just Dot's bad day, I suppose . . .
One day's absence and the argument's got fierce while I wasn't looking. should have known, own fault, will read quietly and not interrupt from now on

[dot king]

"A bit unfair to say the Georges was booted out for racial comments. He does tend to use colourful language but has said he did not mean his remarks that way"

So how do we classify remarks that say to Harkis that they are "des sous-hommes"?
That does not fall into the category "colourful language" IMHO

[Lily]

Next bet: Malakoff Rue Etienne Dolet

[Daniel Strohl]

Dot,

No problem - I am always happy to learn expressions new for me in English (although "eat my hat" is also used in other languages - in German, "seinen Hut nehmen" (take one's hat) means "to resign and depart".

Since we are quoting expressions, hereafter a famous one from JJ.Rousseau : "avoir l'esprit de l'escalier" (staircase wit) - having wit, but to late ... - It is probably also used in English.

[Maggie G]

Very interesting link from Rocket -- who would have suspected that Leopold would turn out to be worse than Stalin?

Pol Pot killed 21% of the population, Leopold killed 20%, Stalin killed 12%. The worst of the 20th century, killing 38% of the population, turns out to be a colonial power.

The author of this report says he was surprised when he tried to determine which race, religion or ideology has been the most brutal. "If I had simply picked 25 countries out of a hat, I could not have gotten a more diverse spread than we've got here. We've got rich countries and poor countries; industrial and agrarian; big and small. We've got people of all colours -- white, black, yellow and brown -- widely represented among both the slaughterers and the slaughterees. We've got Christians, Moslems, Buddists and Atheists all butchering one another in the name of their various gods or lack thereof. Among the perpetrators, we've got political leanings of the left, right and middle; some are monarchies; some are dictatorships and some are even democracies."

He ends by saying, "In a way it's rather disheartening to realize that we can't smugly blame the brutality of the century on the Communists, or the imperialists, or the Moslem fundamentalists, or the godless. Every major category of human has done its share to boost the body count".

Very interesting. Makes you think.

Thanks, Rocket.

[dot king]

"avoir l'esprit de l'escalier" (staircase wit) - having wit, but to late ... - It is probably also used in English.
Daniel -
that's a new one to me, haven't come across anything like it in English, but my favaourite translingual (?) expression is "daft as a brush" - the first time I heard a French person use it, it was a notaire, speaking of a vendeur "celui-là alors, il est con comme un balai"
I almost fell off my chair!
I've also heard "con comme une manche de balai" which amounts to the same thing.

[Valentin]

"So how do we classify remarks that say to Harkis that they are "des sous-hommes"? "

Georges Frèche did say that to a group of Harkis, only not in their quality of Harkis, but on the contrary, in that they don't resist attacks and don't behave as men, and so don't honour the memory of their fathers who died in Algeria. Sous-hommes was meant as "not a real man", not as "inferior human being".
This was the interpretation of the judge too d'ailleurs, and Frèche has been cleaned of all misdemeanour.

[Valentin]

Maggie G on the link from Rocket:
"Very interesting. Makes you think."

Well it depends how one reads it. One may notice this:

1 55,000,000 Second World War (Some overlap w/Stalin. Includes Sino-Japanese War and Holocaust. Doesn't incl. post-war German expulsions) 1937/39-1945
2 40,000,000 China: Mao Zedong's regime. (incl. famine) 1949-76
3 20,000,000 USSR: Stalin's regime (incl. WW2-era atrocities) 1924-53
4 15,000,000 First World War (incl. Armenian massacres) 1914-18
5 8,800,000 Russian Civil War

These first 5 are far ahead of the rest of the list. Amongst them, we notice those related to communists: 1 partially, 2, 3 and 5 completely, far outpassing anything else.

But before even discussing all this, we might wonder, who's the author? Well his name is Matthew White and he says:
"My academic credentials are pretty slim -- a couple of years of college and that's about it."

Quite serious basis of discussion, what can I say.

[Monika]

"Georges Frèche did say that to a group of Harkis, only not in their quality of Harkis, but on the contrary, in that they don't resist attacks and don't behave as men, and so don't honour the memory of their fathers who died in Algeria. Sous-hommes was meant as "not a real man", not as "inferior human being"."

That sounds to me rather as an attempt of that guy to get his neck out of the gallow as he had to realize that he would be persecuted by law. Anybody in public life has to be aware of the meaning of "sous-homme" and cannot pretend to not knowing. If he wanted to say "not a real man" why didn't he just say it this way? Why did he choose to use this ladden term? And even if it just slipped from his lips why didn't he immediately corrected himself?

[Valentin]

"The King's power should be constrained? Revolutionary!"

You can see it as the popular history books go: the royalty was absolutist and control from the 3rd State was revolutionary.
Or you can notice that most kings of France and England based on (and were limited in their power by) parliaments and general states, because they almost never had enough money. Louis XI toured France in search of help from cities and provincial states. Philippe IV invented the States to fight the Pope. Bourbon kings' decisions had to be approved by the parliament. Most of the time there was no absolutism at all.

"Any idea what the real, unarguable exception might be?"

Not one, there are too many on your list unknown to me. I'm trying to shift attention to history debates and so create a diversion. Or else my fan club will be disappointed and lose even the meagre respect still left. Like I said, sic transit...

[Valentin]

Here's Frèche's exact words, they can be found on the internet. He blames the Harki organizations to have befriended rightwingers, while the right had betrayed them in Algeria. He concludes that since they befriend the "murderers" of their fathers, they have no honour. It would take quite a stretch of mind to see this as racist.

"Alors, vous êtes allés à Palavas avé les députés gaullistes, avé les gaullistes qui ont laissé les harkis se faire massacrer en Algérie. Faut-il vous rappeler que 90 000 harkis ont été égorgés comme des porcs parce que l’armée française les a laissés seuls là-bas ? Alors vous êtes vraiment d’une incurie incroyable. Vous ne connaissez pas l’histoire. Alors écoutez, moi je vous ai donné votre boulot de pompier, gardez-le et fermez votre gueule. Allez avé les gaullistes. Allez avé les gaullistes vos frères à Palavas, vous y serez très bien. Ils ont massacré les vôtres en Algérie et encore vous allez leur lécher les bottes. Mais vous n’avez rien du tout, vous êtes des sous-hommes !"

[Lily]

Pierre Bernardi: You must have overlooked my post above. What about ETIENNE DOLET who lived in the 16th century, was in the printing business, a humanist and was hung as heretic. He was a sympathiser of Martin Luther. Does this make him left-wing? Would you call protestants left-wing? (In the US they are pretty much right-wing.)

[Pierre Bernardi]

Lily, if you'll give me a sceond I'll give you an argument as to why protestants are indeed left-wing. It begins with their democratic credentials (compare the viking church in Honfleurs to a traditional catholic one, say the cathedral in Séville, and you'll see what I mean). Protestants believe that we are all equal before God. Contrast with Rome. Protestants believe in the Book. Compare with cathechism. Luther, Calvin and Knox believed in material restraint. Compare that with the pomp and splendour of the Catholic Church.

As you point out, Etienne Dolet was a reformist and therefore on the left. CQFD. What our American friends might call him is neither here nor there.

[Valentin]

Pierre is persisting in his leftwing convictions.

According to him, the Left is good by definition: they're democratic, on the side of the people, decent, genuine, truthful, humble. Meanwhile the Right would be elitist, opulent, proud, false, despising the many and the poor. In short, the bad.

If we were to follow up this line of reasoning, it's every citizen's duty to support the Left - unless he's himself a victim to all those vices. I say the good citizens should unite against the bad and do away with them once and for all!

No, Pierre, I'm sorry again, the values you quote are not leftwing, neither "structurally", nor any other way. Your reading of political values is superficial. The political/philosophical left/right appeared just before the Enlightenment and are notions in continuous evolution. We might say that 200 years ago the right was indeed conservatory, monarchist and ultra-religious, while the left was humanist, rational and defending the poor workers. That was 200 years ago. In the meantime things have changed quite a bit.

[Valentin]

Etienne Dolet was quite a controversial figure. He was of high birth, and had the favour of king François I. He published both protestant books and books of popularization of the faith. He was at odds with Erasmus of Rotterdam and Calvin, and he died with a reputation of atheist, when we can more accurately describe him as a curious, wandering spirit.

But that was quite normal at the time. We are in the middle of the Renaissance, when the spirit was liberated, there was a return to Greek and Roman art and literature (by definition non-christian, even blasphemious), and the princes of France and Italy were on the very top of the wave.

It's called Renaissance, Pierre, not "leftwing values".
That is, unless you consider Botticelli, the Medici family, or King François I himself "leftwing".

[Lily]

“As you point out, Etienne Dolet was a reformist and therefore on the left.”

Pierre Bernardi,

Etienne Dolet lived in the 16th century. He didn’t know anything about left and right in his own time. You are abusing of him for your ‘left’ cause.

You can of course argue that Protestants are anti-clerical, anti-Establishment with regards to the role they played in the French Revolution. On the other hand, the US shows that they have become ‘the’ establishment there.

Okay, the same isn’t true for Europe, although – Merkel is the centre-right conservative German chancellor AND - protestant.

Besides, looking at the right/left origins, the left stood for change. Today, the left stands for conserving their rights inherited by their left-wing forebears.

The ones who want change, reform and rupture are the ones who are leaning to the right.

Alors, quel est l’intrus?

[Daniel Strohl]

Pierre,

Protestant = left ? I will abjure at once !

Dot,

"daft as a brush"

In Alsatian : "dumm we a Fassbode" - daft as the bottom of a barrel ...

[Pierre Bernardi]

Valentin, indeed, insofar as they opposed the status quo, there is a good case for including Botticelli et al on the left.

I think we will agree that left and right are conventional terms, inherited from the positions occupied by various politicians within the French national assembly in 1789. Supporters of the royalty sat on the right, while those who opposed the royal veto sat on the left.

As Etienne Dolet lived in the 16th century, his inclusion in the list is an obvious extrapolation.

[Pierre Bernardi]

And the answer is...

Le Kremlin-Bicêtre!

The area to the south of Paris takes its name from that ultimate symbol of russian power, the citadel... pre-1917. A soldier of the Napoleonic army came back from the Russian campaign and decided to open a cabaret. He called it "Au sergent du Kremlin."

[Valentin]

"I think we will agree that left and right are conventional terms"

Courteous of you to resume my four or five ardent posts in one little sentence, Pierre - that is, if you hadn't mentioned values all along, and not terms :) (Voltaire could be called a leftie despite his expiring before the revolution; at that time classical liberals "sat" at the left, while the bloody-red thingy we today call "left" didn't even exist)

Good one, Kremlin-Bicêtre.

[Maggie G]

"while the bloody-red thingy we today call "left" didn't even exist"

Valentine, wouldn't it be more correct to call that bloody-red thingy "far left"?

Maybe in France the left starts at "far left", but most other places have a "moderate left" before the "far left " begins.

[Valentin]

Maggie G

Well yes and no... ALL leftwing today is very much to the left of the leftwing of 200 years ago - be it communists, socialist, labour or social-democrats. In the same time they all moved to the right of Marx after 1989.

Yet if you look here :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/fr/2/20/Logo_PSE.JPG

or here : http://www.pes.org/

you'll see there's bloody red all over the place - literally ! :)

[Pierre Bernardi]

Valentin, there is of course a Voltaire métro station. I left it out because:
a) not being a big fan of satire I find him difficult to read (and introducing France to Shakespeare didn't help)
b) he's a moralist - 'il faut cultiver notre jardin', how bourgeois can you get? - and he defended religion by virtue of its usefulness to society (or to his own pocket: "Je veux que mon procureur, mon tailleur, mes valets croient en Dieu ; et je m'imagine que j'en serai moins volé"), whilst rejecting prayer as a misunderstanding of divine power
c) unlike Rousseau, as far as I know, he didn't leave his children to his ex-girlfriends and the state to take care of them, thus practising his excellent notions of social responsibility.

Mitterrand is said to have sighed, "quand même, Voltaire."

[Daniel Strohl]

Pierre,

"Mitterrand is said to have sighed, "quand même, Voltaire."

There is a major difference between the two : Voltaire's name will remain, Mitterrand will sink in oblivion within a few decades. Of course, I will no more be there to check my prediction ...

"as far as I know, he didn't leave his children to his ex-girlfriends"

I didn't even know that he had got children ...

[Pierre Bernardi]

That reminds me Daniel: we ought to include Bibliothèque F. Mitterrand on the list of left-wing stations. I missed it. It'll go under 'Leaders'.

[Daniel Strohl]

Pierre,

May be we could add another station, less obvious and conspicuous as Bibliothèque F.Mitterrand, but more ancient : Bonne Nouvelle ...

In fact, if the the socialists had won the presidency, we would have plenty of "Bonnes Nouvelles" right now; we could Requiem In Pace, forget the market crisis, and various lady stories as well ...

[Pierre Bernardi]

Shhh! Don't use that word! We don't have "socialists", we have Royalists, we have centrists, we have social democrats. And we have the League of Communist Revolutionaries. What more good news do we need? A woman in the White House?

[LEFOUDUMARX]

aaah la Ligue communiste révolutionnaire ! comme il domine les sondages, le p'ti Besancenot, gentil garçon qui nous prépare la révolution en chantant!

Tiens, et puisqu'on y est :

http://argoul.blog.lemonde.fr/2007/11/18/le-fantasme-de-l%E2%80%99homme-nouveau/