Why France turns a blind eye on race

After the latest bout of ethnic riots, it's worth looking at a curious and very French ruling by the constitutional court that makes a nonsense of the effort to help the unhappy kids on the housing estates.

I wrote ethnic although you will never see the violence described that way in France. This is because of the fiction, laid down in the constitution, that France is an indivisible, colour-blind republic in which all are equal. Officially, no account may be taken of differences based on race. This was reinforced in a 1978 law which "prohibits the collection or treatment of personal data which show, directly or indirectly, racial or ethnic origin."

So France is one of the few developed nations which does not ask for ethnic origin in the national census. There are no reliable statistics that can be used to measure discrimination or gauge diversity in education and the work place.

Researchers and some anti-racism campaigners have been trying to abolish this taboo, or at least circumvent it, on the grounds that a yardstick is needed to measure discrimination before it can be remedied. Everyone knows that France's minority of black and Maghrebin origin -- the majority on the troubled estates -- face big obstacles in education and employment.

[picture: children at a high school in Villiers-le-Bel, scene of last week's riots] 

Last summer the Sarkozy parliament passed a law that reversed the statistics ban. It allowed the collection of ethnic data in projects approved by the national agency for the protection of personal data (CNIL).

The new law was furiously opposed by some groups, such as SOS Racisme, which raised 90,000 signatures on an internet petition against it, including that of François Hollande, the Socialist Party leader. It was also strongly supported by other groups. "We are about to open the way to something fabulous," said Patrick Lozès, president of the Representative Council of Black Organizations. “We are going from just talking about equality as a moral standard to doing something to help achieve it.”

Then two weeks ago, the Constitutional Council threw out the law and upheld the old ban, saying that measuring ethnicity contradicted article one of the Constitution. The decision has been welcomed as a blow against racism while others deplore it as a set-back in the fight against discrimination.

Its immediate impact has been the suspension of a planned survey by two state statistical agencies (INSEE and INED) which would track the impact of ethnic origin on French citizens of African origin. Those involved have been voicing their frustration, saying the ruling, designed to uphold the noble ideal of the constitution, will block attempts to remedy discrimination.

Alex Turk, the Senator who heads the data protection agency, is indignant over what he sees as the stupidity of the council ruling. "The survey on origins is an attempt to find out if the fact of being black has a negative impact on a career. This is extremely important for the directors of an organisation," he told Libération. "It's about studying the career path, not compiling a personnel file according to the colour of employees skin."

Memories of such fichiers, compiled on Jews by French police during the Nazi occupation, lie behind opposition to ethnic surveys.   

President Sarkozy himself carries some of the blame for the confusion because he has muddied the waters over race. On one hand he is in French terms progressive. The son of a Hungarian immigrant and part Jewish, he favours affirmative action, or positive discrimination, to balance diversity in work and education (There is no chance that the Constitutional Council will let this happen). Yet he has also played to the unhealthier instincts of white France by creating a new ministry of Immigration and National Identity, headed by his old friend Brice Hortefeux. His parliament stirred the pot further by adding the possibility of DNA testing for people seeking permission to immigrate to rejoin family members. The Constitutional Council upheld this at the same time as rejecting the change on ethnic data.

Sarko's hard line on last week's riots -- saying that they had nothing to do with any social malaise -- has further fanned suspicion among minorities and on the left that he does not understand the exclusion that they suffer.  He has promised a new approach to the plight of the banlieue, to be announced next month. All we know so far is that, as he put it, "this will not just be another attempt to throw money at the problem."

One of the things he could do is find some way around the new statistics ban so France can start measuring the size of its problem.

Comments

[all]

"Everyone knows that France's minority of black and Maghrebin origin -- the majority on the troubled estates -- face big obstacles in education and employment"

Si chacun le sait, est-il besoin de statistiques pour le confirmer ? L'enquête démarrera avec un biais de confirmation, puisque la réponse précède les questions.

[John Styx]

Charles, you've described the problem very accurately. I'm an HR adviser in the French subsidiary of a multinational company. You just have to stroll through our French HQ to see we employ some Asians, much not much Arab or Black people. We're aware of this and like everyone else in the business, have claimed our will to embrace diversity and so on.

I believe we've made some progress as far as recruitment is concerned. Still, we cannot check if Arab or Black employees have the same career paths as the others. The works council regularly challenges us about it: "show us some proof there is progress", they say. How are we supposed to do that without statistics, I don't know. We can work on single cases, but we can't have a global overwiew of the situation. Meanwhile, we're allowed to do statistics about women; it's even mandatory (art.432-3-1 of the Code du Travail). How is that sensible?

[Juliette]

Charles, don't forget the context in which this ethnicity measruing would have happened accoridng to the law: it would have basically counted in only people getting a resident card. I'm all fine with fighting discrimination, but this would just have become a racist tool in the end "look at how many black cross our borders".
After Sarkozy's speech in Senegal this summer, I don't believe a second this would have been used the right way.

[The 3rd Column]

In a way, you can't blame the Constitutional Court for throwing out a law that violates the Constitution no matter how well-intentioned the law is. (It's the same in the US, same everywhere where there is a written Constitution.)

The Constitutional Court must rule on what is constitutional and what is not. The Constitutional Court in is not after all, a trier of facts. It interprets the law based on the Constitution, as simple as that.

If a particular law is crafted in such a way that it violates the Constitution, then there's no turning around it, the law must be thrown own. Either that or a Constitutional Assembly must be convened to make changes in the Constitution.

Best thing to do as you said for Pres Sarkozy and PM Fillon "to find some way around the new statistics ban so France can start measuring the size of its problem."

[Valentin]

I'm sorry Charles, I still fail to see how the DNA tests could pose problems in France, when they're accepted as paternity proof in the US, the UK and other countries.
Incidentally, those who opposed them (avoiding the fact that they won't be compulsory) didn't offer any alternative solution to consulates being submerged by fake documents.

I also still fail to understand how the teen riots in banlieues are expression of "malaise social", when immigrant and immigrant-origin population in the same banlieues DO NOT join, are NOT in a state of revolt.

Would you go as far as to say all people over 20 are just giving in to ghettoisation and exclusion?
How come inhabitants often call for police protection against gangs and rioters?

For problems of housing, social insertion, discrimination and exclusion, there are many very active NGOs and their work is sometimes quite visible.

Poor immigrant communities can be found all over the western world, I don't see why this would be an accute problem in France, and why France would particularly be refusing to "acknowledge the problem", "stuck in old, rigid ways". THE SAME issues can be seen in Holland and in the UK: same poor neighbourhoods, same integration problems, same flamed debates on national identity.

I understand well that Azloon, not being aware of what goes on in Europe, makes some wide-range comments (which I classify in the slogan category).
CB of The Times though, should be aware that there's an immigration and identity issue all over Europe right now, that solutions are yet to be found, and that the tide is not in favour of the "My-Identity-First" foreigners, nor against measures like ADN tests, or national identity affirmation.

[Dominique]

Charles,

"Memories of such fichiers, compiled on Jews by French police during the Nazi occupation, lie behind opposition to ethnic surveys. "

Not only. Colonization is also behind the opposition. You need to remind that many of the immigrants come from countries where colonization did make "ethnic profiling". It also did religious profiling. Doing it again would send us back to these "muddie waters". Remember that algerian jews were made french citizen while muslims were called "indigènes" (natives) and kept into their own "culture" despite their social environment being destroyed by the colonizer.

"Those involved have been voicing their frustration, saying the ruling, designed to uphold the noble ideal of the constitution, will block attempts to remedy discrimination"

you will find as many (of those involved as you say) who claim the very opposite : the very idea of counting is destroying the ideal, therefore the very idea of the attemps to remedy discrimitation.

These debates are stuck into a sens less issue : "qui de l'oeuf ou de la poule était là le premier?" We need to pass this and go beyond that issue, and maybe say something like :

"because we are equal, because we know that skincolor has no impact on our abilities, there is no risk in defining quotas".

That would be called "renverser la table sans renoncer à notre idéal". Would that kill meritocracy? i don't know? would it save it? maybe. (any idea anyone?)

But more, the school is to change and stop believing we should start raising children taking into account what they already are. No. We need to raise children taking into account where we want to take them : adulthood!

But nowadays, adults can be also very childish...;=))

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

Most people are proud of their ethnic origins. There is tremendous interest in tracing ancestry, especially in America. Famous names and celebrities rush to join the TV programme which ends in either tears or smiles or disbelief (one film star who thought he was descended from a titled Irish family snapped "Of course it matters" when the dusty ledgers showed his ancestor had a grocer's shop in London's East End. Then there is DNA, those three little letters which can bring pride or shouts of rage. One lady, a Union Flag-waving British Nationalist, is considering legal action against the TV programme makers for discovering she is descended from Ghengis Khan. Carol Thatcher, daughter of the Iron Lady did not know whether to laugh or cry when she was told she had Egyptian blood. A beautiful African women in her early twenties traced her family back to their native village where they welcomed her, smeared her face with red clay, danced around until the head-man said: "You were supposed to give us some money!" She ran off and said to the camera crew: "All I want is to get back to my comfortable little flat in London and have a hot bath and wash my hair." There is much anguish in our Great Human Brotherhood (oops, and Sisterhood).
Personally, I would rather not know. Just think, I may find that, like Her Majesty, I have an ancestor who used to cut his wives' heads off! By chance I found my real name was Cinnsealach which the dastardly English occupiers of Ireland in 1600 forced upon the Celts and made them Anglecise all names so it became: Kinslagh, Kinsella, Kingsley and

[alan morgan]

There is no evidence that the people who committted the recent street violence had a common national or culturial tradition: ie they were an ethnic group. Nor for that matter is the description Maghrebin appropriate for the rioters may well have been other than North Africian. If I may say so Charles you have a can of worms here

[I agree, it's a can of worms but the common thread is that the banlieue kids are just about all from non-white immigrant families -- mostly beurs and blacks. They feel excluded. I know you can argue about the reasons, but the barriers to their integration can be measured to some degree through statistics. It is actually an offence in France to collect them. My instinct is to oppose the banning of information. CB]

[Dominique]

"Most people are proud of their ethnic origins"

Why? Is that something you can be proud of? One can be proud of what he does, not what he is. There is no reason to be ashamed, but there is no reason to be proud either.

Should i be proud of being white? brown hair? Being proud of your ethnicity is exactly were racism starts.

[Frank Schnittger]

There is a standard aphorism in business - "what gets measured, gets acted upon". If a businessman doesn't know he's losing money on a particular product or service line, or has an unusually high level of complaints relating to a particular product, how is he going to improve the way he does business?

Conversely, if you want to bury a problem, the surest way of doing so is to ensure there are no objective, comparable ways of measuring the nature, size and shape of the problem. In the absence of such measures, all sorts of anecdotal, distorted, and downright misleading conclusions will be drawn from unrepresentative or poorly collected data.

I was once asked to investigate why a company had a major upsurge in a particular type of service quality problem. It turned out there was no such upsurge, just a couple of vociferous customers who had taken to writing directly to the Managing Director about their dissatisfaction, and which gave their concerns a visibility out of all proportion to the actual seriousness of their problem and which led to far more widespread and serious problems being ignored.

We instigated a systematic complaints management process after that, which allowed us to measure the level of complaints by type, service/product involved, region, frequency compared to last year, time taken to resolve etc., and ensured that complaints were dealt faster and problems identified and resolved more accurately and cost-effectively.

Without such data, all speculation as to the causes of the riots is just that - speculation, and the far from disinterested prognostications of those who are pushing a particular policy agenda - be in security clampdowns or more money for particular services.

Official blindness to ethnic background can also easily translate into official disregard and disinterest in the particular problems of particular groups. We may want everyone to have equal rights, but that does not make everyone the same.

Why are we even talking about racial diversity here if, officially, it does not exist?

"He has promised a new approach to the plight of the banlieue, to be announced next month."

Funny, the socialist mayor of Paris is busy building new high rises, an opera house, installing velibs and electric cars. Didnt someone say socialists are supposed to help the poor and curb the rich and powerful?

[azloon]

]I understand well that Azloon, not being aware of what goes on in Europe, makes some wide-range comments (which I classify in the slogan category).] Valentin

Vee, you seem to be on some sort of campaign to discount me as a 'sloganeer.' that's ok, i can take it. :)

'Liberte, Egalite et Fraternite' -- now, THERE'S a SLOGAN if ever there was one. what does it mean exactly, Vee? how does it apply to france's present issues, if at all (and i assume it does judging by Dominiques constant references to 'republican' principles).

slogans, as with stereotypes, are occasionally useful. perhaps france NEEDS a new slogan, or a retooling of it's most famous one, to help pull itself out of its present dilemma.

and as a leading practitioner of sloganeering, i am more than willing to offer a few up, free of charge, for your edification. :)

p.s. i don't need to know exactly what is going on in the sudan to know that childhood malnutrition there is a problem (or, if you will, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's most likely a duck).

[dot king]

Dominique, I quite agree, why be proud or ashamed of something you can't help or influence? We are all accidents of birth on that level.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

Dominique - if you're not proud of being French why sing your national anthem and salute the tricolor? Have you not lived in America? "I'm German-Irish" said the Godfather's lawyer. Several Presidents boasted that they had Irish ancestry. "I'm part Cherokee", "I'm Italian". What's wrong with being proud of your origins? Racism is when you hate another ethnic group. Churchill, commenting on the German Nazis said: "You can hate a man for what he does, but not for what he is."
In a bar in the Deep South, a Jewish American author friend of mine saw a notice in the bar: "Here, we are 100% American." "Well, I'm 200% American," he said. "Yeah? How's that?" "You guys down here hate only Negroes, Catholics and Jews, and that makes you 100% American, but I'm 200% American because I HATE EVERYBODY." Nationalism breeds racism. James Joyce preferred living in France, the Latin rather than an an Anglo-Saxon way of life, and he hated Irish Nationalism, advising: "If you see people running a flag up a pole and saluting it, break wind as loudly as possible and walk away."
If he were alive today and someone asked his nationality, he would say "European"
How about a campaign for an Olymnpic Games without flags? That is about as likely as campaigning for a world without mirrors.

[Valentin]

No campaign, Mr. Azloon, it so happens that this post of Charles' is the continuation of the earlier debate; I just feel anglosaxons choose to ignore facts, "realité du terrain" and stick to grand phrases stigmatising the French model.

I came to understand and appreciate that model, I don't say it is perfect, but first, it has its logic and good sides and not being understood by american or english doesn't take that away from it. Secondly, this kind of insistence on "we AS hold the truth, our vision is the right one, you Frenchies would better open your eyes" will only bring division.
The French understand their model, agree with it, know its downsides, but know also that AS critics don't understand it one bit, because to them it looks unnatural.

Juliette's post is an example, people would start to count not only what is africans' career path, but also how many africans enter France, how many are in prison, how many benefit of social aids and so on. Information would bring endless race-related disputes. This might somehow work in the US. It brought nothing good in the UK. In France, it's considered dangerous.

And when I repeat that it's weird that banlieue kids feel excluded, while their older brothers and parents don't,
when I say that these kids use every occasion to destroy their own non-white neighbours' property,
when I say that this didn't happen in the US, all I get from you guys is sloganeering, I'm sorry.

[Valentin]

"i don't need to know exactly what is going on in the sudan to know that childhood malnutrition there is a problem"

If you think the scope and the depth of the two situations are the same, well, nothing more to say here, I rest my case.

[Dominique]

Peter K,

"Racism is when you hate another ethnic group"

This can be very much discussed. I think that "racism is when you prefer an ethnic group". And preference leads to discrimination (toward those you don't "prefer")

Those things are complex issues and the values of a society are based on how you define those words.

I personnaly see no reason for prefering the white because i am white. That does not make sens to me.

Sorry.

Regarding the flag, that's getting tough! I eventually can be proud of my flag or my country for what it does or what it did. But i also can be ashamed of what it did or what it does. But proud of it's geography? The rhetoric is difficult because a country IS also the result of it's history, you therefore can be proud or ashamed of what it IS.

But the skin color? ethnic group? Sorry, i see not reason to be proud of it. Did an "ethnic group" did something? Is an "ethnic group" guilty of something? That would sound racist to me!

[Valentin]

'Liberte, Egalite et Fraternite' is not a slogan, but a principle. Its materialization can be seen at all administration levels whose "clients" are in majority foreigners: most clerks are racially diverse, so that no one feel excluded.
The laïcité and the ban on racial info are also expressions of the liberté, égalité: you can be certain there are no statistics and no files where your ethnic origin, race or religious beliefs are taken into account: you're treated as a human person, regardless of clothes, accent or skincoulour.

What I deplore is that Fraternité only shows in corporatisms (lawyers or fonctionnaires only being brotherly with their own), and not at all when it's about giving up advantages for the Common Good.

I too might start asking what means "In God We Trust" in the present day US, and what meaning would have a hands-on-bible oath of a black, zen-buddhist US President.
Talk about obsolete...

[Frank Schnittger]

The notion that people who emigrate to France should suddenly forget all about their ethnic origins and become "French" is an amazing bureaucratic conceit.

People define themselves in all sorts of ways - by their occupation, qualifications, religion, family, relationships, regions, neighbourhoods, lifestyles, by the football team they support etc. and to suggest to (say) an Algerian immigrant that he should forget all about his Algerian origins and Identify with some kind of prior abstract ideal of "Frenchness" is cultural imperialism at its worst.

No wonder the young rioters feel a sense of alienation and rootlessness, a lack of belonging, if that is what they are being taught to believe.

In the first place there is no unchanging prior French identity that anyone can adopt wholesale. What it means to be French is being redefined by French people all the time, and that now includes those immigrants that live in their midst.

Part of what it means to be French now is the cultural and ethnic diversity it contains. To seek to deny people the right to define themselves as Algerian as well as French is to deny them a very large part of their identity, and to impose on them some kind of philosophical, ideological, bureaucratic or middle class self definition which is completely at odds with what they feel about themselves as to who and what they are.

Even if there are some aspects of (say) Algerian culture which most French people do not like and would like to change, any change process can only begin from where people are currently at, and with their consent. By all means engage with immigrants and say e.g. “we would like you to consider not wearing religious garb in public..” etc. – because at least you are beginning to recognise and address what cultural or religious differences actually do exist.

But to pretend that such differences do not exist at all is a recipe for disaster because it means you are not engaging with immigrant communities on their terms at all. When real differences are simply ignored, there can be no process of assimilation/integration, there can be no building up of relationships based on mutual respect. In effect you are saying to immigrants: “we will recognise and deal with you only insofar as you conform to our idea of Frenchness which means you must suppress your own ethnic identity and everything you have ever experienced before you came here..

Human change simply doesn’t work that way.

[azloon]

Doninique --

re principles

i do believe a nation can create difficulties for itself in the laying out of stated principles. i would suggest that 'the right to bear arms" guaranteed by the second amenment to the constitution is a 'right' which has created unintended consequences.

the u.s. declaration of independance also states that we 'believe that all men are created equal, endowed by their creator with inalienable rights."

this is clearly an american version of the french rights of man, yet the conundrum created in france by a refusal to acknowldge racial differences has never been much of an issue in the u.s. how could two nations that began their existence on such similar footing have diverged so much on this one issue?

a possible explanation: what i notice in the comments by french posters is the total distrust of government and the uses it might make of such statistical information about racial difference. i don't know that these qualms ever occurred to most americans.

france might want to reconsider so-called inviolable principles dating to 1789 so as not to create unintended consequences which could not have been envisioned by thinkers at the end of the 18th century.

p.s. i agree with the poster who supported the council's ruling banning such statistics as unconstitutional. if the country wishes to legalize such information gathering, the constitution will have to be changed to accomodate it. you are, admirably so, a nation of laws.

[azloon]

Vee --

remember, just because you put kittens in the oven don't make 'em biscuits.

:o)

[dot king]

On tonight's news FR2 there was a prolonged item on French-Algerians (with dual nationality) moving back to settle in Algeria and sending for their families once they were earning, because they couldn't find jobs in France. "Regroupement familial" in reverse they called it.
Amazing coincidence? Maybe. It wasn't "linked" to this rejection by the Conseil Constitutionnel. It was just there.
France is not addressing most of its pressing problems at the moment, perhaps as usual, but somehow I get the feeling there's a little subversion every now and again from public radio and TV.
"Pays d'Accueil" was mentioned by someone the other day, well, maybe not for your ordinary Mohammed, but the Ayatollah Khomeini was exiled here for 20 years and Baby Doe of Haiti is in France waiting to go home and dictate a little more.

[Valentin]

"The notion that people who emigrate to France should suddenly forget all about their ethnic origins"
"To seek to deny people the right to define themselves as Algerian as well as French is to deny them a very large part of their identity"

Frank is making a huge confusion here, between what is the LAW in France (turning a blind eye on race, or religion) and what I said is NECESSARY for an immigrant to do in order to be welcomed by his new compatriots.
French Law never requires someone to deny or to forget his origins, his people, his tradition or mothertongue. On the contrary, its intention is for the Different One to be protected of judgements and discriminations based on those criteria.

I myself never said someone should forget anything at all (and even less deny).
But the fact is that the Community model has failed.
The UK and the Netherlands, champions in the matter, give the frightening image of people locked in their communities (of tongue, religion, or origin) and who manifest little (if any) solidarity with their conationals and respect and fidelity towards their new country.
They don't manifest it because they don't feel it: a huge percentage of the UK muslims are first and foremost subjects of their imams rather than the Queen. A huge percentage of those muslims declared they understand and approve 9/11.

The same happened in the Netherlands.

The Community model has failed.
People cannot be 100% assimilated, but they should understand that when they immigrate, their first allegiance must be towards their new country, not towards their community, whatever that is based on.
When I have a French passport and vote in French elections, I do because I love France as MY ONLY country and the French as my people. Algerian or Chinese be my origin. And that, even if I feel rejected, it is for me to try first and hardest to make myself accepted. I find it outrageous that someone asks for acceptance without making any effort first.
Or many don't. They start with the conjecture "I'm different, I'm rejected" and dive in frustration, anger and exclusion. They start claiming the right of being considered French because they have an ID.
They make the same confusion as Mr. Schnittger, between Law and people's feelings. The Law protects them from discrimination, but doesn't make them welcome into society. Even if you have the ID; if you're not polite, you're not helpful, you push your ego and identity in the face of others, you show no respect and common sense, you behave like a savage; then you'll be considered one and treated accordingly.
And if I travel one full year on the metro line 4 and RER D and all I see around is bandits and thugs who call each other exclusively Karim, Abdel, and the likes, I assure you no law of the republic will make me dissociate CV's named "Karim" or "Abdel" of the ideas of incivility, or defiance of authority.

And these few that I quoted are not even French values. They're values of our Western world, just like the secular law (over religion), or the man - woman equality of rights.
There's no shame in demanding newcomers to learn and respect them, and for many honest people THAT is the problem, not race or origin.
It's so much easier to live in nice places like le Luberon, la Saintonge, la Bretagne, que sais-je, and be an angel and cry on the shoulder of poor excluded algerians in Paris.

[Pierre Lebrun]

If the constitution says that all people are equal before the law, can someone explain why collecting ethnic statistics is unconstitutional?

France is full of sociologists grouping people according to their various inequalities such as economic or social classes, disabilities etc., so why not by race?

on a basic level, how does the day-to-day business of collecting ethnic stats conflict with people's rights to non-discrimination? presumably the process of collecting ethnic stats does not involve disenfranchising individuals in any way at all. a few questions, and you get some numbers, that's all.

is the french establishment scared of what the results might show, after SOS Racisme discrimination surveys?

moving on from the data-collection debate, why can't the establishment here understand that collecting the stats might help "the process" of achieving egalite, which shurely doesn't just exist because someone's carved the word onto the tops of the government buildings?

In the UK, ethnic stats are constantly producing surprising results, which I am sure must be helping civil servants direct resources to better achieve equality, e.g. we know that Indian-origin kids currently perform better than any other ethnic group at British school, whereas "black" kids as a group, generally don't do so well. obviously targeting funds at the black kids is going to help us create a more equal society.

unlike in the data-collection debate, I recognise at this point you have a genuine philosophical debate about equality - and if French citizens discovered, for the sake of argument, that Chinese kids did better than Cambodian origin kids at French schools, they would argue that Chinese kids should get as much government attention as Cambodian kids - thus in the name of equality, preserve inequality!

I know that talking about race and ethnicity is unusual and a bit scary for French people, but please bare with me, French readers of Charles' blog!

it's very strange to me that a culture that is so strongly rooted in scientific reasoning and logic, should so egregiously ignore the normative approach to discovering the truth, in all its likely complexity, of its ethnic issues.

perhaps the difference with anglo-saxon thinking is that the french sentamentalise the notion of equality at birth, so that it stays with you like your name, where the Americans start with the same basic idea, but reason that that fundamental right will be constantly under attack, so there needs to be protection and positive discriminatory policy. maybe the american approach fed through to the uk.

or is the issue more to do with the risk of challenging French identity (which excludes any notion of ethnic origin), than with segmenting the population in statistical surveys? The French nationalist ideology of the Nation State requiring clone-like citizens could be put to the test if people started talking about how different citizens were.

At the popular level of debate, why is everyone so scared of what people might do with the statistics? why is fear the number one commodity in French political discussion? yes the statistics could be mis-used, but why not start getting uppity when you see something bad actually happening, rather than worrying all the time about what might? why not just give sarko's ideas a try, for want of any other ideas?

[Donald]

From CB:
"[I agree, it's a can of worms but the common thread is that the banlieue kids are just about all from non-white immigrant families -- mostly beurs and blacks. They feel excluded. I know you can argue about the reasons, but the barriers to their integration can be measured to some degree through statistics. It is actually an offence in France to collect them. My instinct is to oppose the banning of information. CB]"

The emphasis is on discrimination against non-whites by the wider French society ("they feel excluded"). They can feel what they like, but does that make it a fact? Asians do much better in France than the ethnic groups that the rioters come from and Asians are not considered white. Could it be that, regardless of the degree to which they are exluded, that other factors, perhaps more important, are at work here? Cultures differ in their emphasis on getting an education and staying in school, on the degree of teenage pregnancies and out-of-wedlock births, on the degree of discipline in the household, on family cohesiveness and parental involvement with their children. IF it was simply a matter of discrimination Asian kids would be doing as poorly in France, but they are not. Statistics cannot tell you what the cause of the problem is. Statistics can tell you what the proverty rate is, the number receiving social aid and so on, but it cannot tell you the root causes. Unfortunately, when the statistics do become available, then the simplistic analysis that it must be discrimination is put forth as the only cause. This leads to forced Affirmative Action plans made to insure an "equal" number of managers, an "equal" number admitted to colleges etc. The temptation is too great to misuse the statistical information. CB's underlying (i.e. between the lines) analysis as to the cause is a case in point. LET'S START TELLING THE TRUTH. These kids come from homes that do not insist upon doing school homework, being focused and disciplined to attain goals etc. All the government programs in the world will not compensate for NOT having a decent home environment. Let's not let statistics get in the way of truth. The fact that the unemployment rate in the banlieus is higher than in the rest of French society does NOT mean that the only reason is discrimination. Culture plays the dominante role or else Asian kids would be doing just as poorly in France.

[Dominique]

Franck S,

I don't even know what you are talking about. Is the concept of citizenship a denial of all human identities??? Not as far as i am aware.

"The notion that people who emigrate to France should suddenly forget all about their ethnic origins and become "French" is an amazing bureaucratic conceit."

It would be if true. But it is not. No one is asked to forget all about their ethnic origins. Neither are they forced to apply to french citizenship! i don't know were you read that.

" to suggest to (say) an Algerian immigrant that he should forget all about his Algerian origins and Identify with some kind of prior abstract ideal of "Frenchness" is cultural imperialism at its worst."

??? where is that? I'd rather say :

" to suggest to (say) an Algerian immigrant that he should never forget about his Algerian origins and denying him any kind of prior abstract ideal of "citizenship" is cultural colonialism at its worst."

No wonder the young rioters feel a sense of alienation and rootlessness, a lack of belonging, if that is what they are being taught to believe.

Regarding the way you dress, no one in France is asked to dress in a way or another. Where did you read that?

The republic does not say that differences do not exist! It just says that differences are not RELEVANT.

You are talking of "frenchness" as if it was ever mentionned (francité?) to be compared to , let say "Irishness". That is not relevant. Being french is historically more diverse and inclusive. All so called races and colors are part of it since the very start of the colonization and Christopher Columbus. For example, Guyanne and french careebeans are french since centuries, much longer than the city of Nice or Strasbourg! You can't talk of socalled "frenchness" as if it meant "being white or caucasiane". Sorry, but that is probably more of a european ethnocentrism of yours. Christiane Taubira (black candidate and prominent leftist leader) calls herself a "fançaise de souche" because Guyanne is french since 1604!! Complex isn't it? French identity is not to be compared to other europan national identities. It is much more complex and that clearly makes it a chalenge for the newcomers who feal they betray their ancestors who faught for not being french.

Azloon,

"a possible explanation: what i notice in the comments by french posters is the total distrust of government and the uses it might make of such statistical information about racial difference. i don't know that these qualms ever occurred to most americans."

Well,maybe it never occured, but it should have. I remind you that you had to wait until the 60's until racial segregation was banned in the US. At that time, the president of the french senat (equivalent to the US vice president) was black at that time. So, it is true that France made big steps backwards since the 60's (decolonization process) while the US made steps forward. But please, no lesson regarding proper use of racial profiling...

[Pierre Lebrun]

...Donald, pray tell, how you know that Asian kids are doing better than Arab or black kids in France, when there are no ethnic stats??? This seems like the typical French attitude of 'Asians are ok, they are quiet and smile a lot, but les blacks et les arabs...'. makes my skin crawl.

While I know people of all ethnic backgrounds who have made it here, there is little margin for error I believe. I have plenty of examples of terrible, and I mean horrendous treatment of Asian kids here, which has harmed their progress in this society.

The issue is not just with the banlieus - they are poor places, so of course they have big problems. There is a problem with discrimination for people from inside Paris too. If you had ethnic stats, you would realise this.

[Lily]

When I was a kid, my mother marked the money she spent in a notebook. She organised that book in her own way, reserving a column where she separated special expenses for each of her children. From when I was ten years old, the closure of her accounts regularly revealed that she had spent twice as much on me than on my two elder brothers. She was very much into equal treatment of everybody – and my brothers interpreted the result: Instead of you (piece of luxury), we could have raised another two boys!! – This was fun, of course. We were all raised to be modest. I wasn’t half as ‘luxurious’ as any teen boy today.

It was interesting and revealing but it didn’t devalue me in any way. My brothers cost more in other areas that were rather covered by my father whose expenses weren’t collected in mom’s book.

Germans love statistics and count everything. Germany’s history should give every reason to stress egalité and not count ethnic groups. But they count everyone, and never anybody has raised any objections to that – for reasons many have given above. You need figures in order to plan. – In my family it was accepted that I did cost more (in certain areas) and that the budget needed to be adapted in that way. –

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I have been to Frankfurt just recently. I was amazed – after years – of how multiethnic the city has become. I spoke my mother tongue but few!! people around had my mother tongue as their mother tongue. There appear to live a lot of immigrants who are very well assimilated, even proud to speak the language. I was impressed by this. Integration for Eastern Europeans appears relatively easy because of cultural and ethnic similarities. But culturally different groups do well as well.

There is no way of praising everything. There are a lot of difficulties in the Eastern part of Germany where unemployment is above the national average and in some other places, too, but I perceived a very open-minded culture there.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Further, I had mentioned the difficult re-integration of Pied-Noirs in France.

Germany has Russian-German people with a similar history. I assume their history is more difficult than the history of Pied-Noirs because they had been totally cut off Germany in Russia for about three generations. They have returned/immigrated to Germany in large numbers over the past 15 (?) years. On their arrival, kids and parents did not speak the language, did not know the culture, and only few of the very old knew a some words in German that they might have heard as children. These people were welcomed and every effort was made to help them integrate. The old, beyond retirement age, still look like recently ‘deported’ from Russia, but their children, i.e. the parent generation, do very well. They received important government aides, are, most of them (some appear to be notorious criminals), hard-working people who live in their own homes today. Their children do well at school, etc.

I am sure the German “Statstisches Bundesamt” can give you exact figures of how many there are, what ages they are and how they are geographically distributed over the territory.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
So, basically, what happens is this: You either don’t acknowledge the difference and treat all equally which will never work because we’re all different and have different needs. Or you accept the differences, count the differences and adapt your policies to facts in figures. This can be constructive or abusive. If it is abusive you can point to the figures and still say “See, why didn’t you allow more ABC into the country but welcome DEF nationals instead?” –

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

My grandmother (mom’s mom) proclaimed treating all the same. She had had only one child and estimated that it had been a mistake for my mother to have had three children. She favoured the first-born. One day she had the idea to give us ‘pocket-money’, and we noticed that n° 1 would always get more and more often, not on a regular basis. I received hardly anything. At some point we took a notebook… and a box. Every time any one of us received any money, we put it into the box and marked it in the book.

At the end of the year, it was clear who she favoured. We shared the money. Each had a third. Grandmother was in for a surprise, speechless. From then on - her feelings might not have changed - she treated us equally. –

‘Fraternité’ and statistics had helped to ensure ‘égalité’.

[Paul]

Like many of my fellow countrymen, I find the idea of racial categorisation, for any purpose, sickening. It run countrary to any principle I was ever taught. To me, this is ideological contamination by some countries who do have serious problems (the US), and others that will just copycat them without thinking weither or not it applies to their case (that's the UK).
Why don't ever talk about existing indicators, such as social fluidity ? Because they make the US and the UK look bad compare to France and nothern europe ? Fixing this for the whole of society would be too costly ? So you prefer the cheap, quick hack of making sure that at least it's not visible ? This way you can pretend social fluidity problem is corrected by just fixing it for the 5% ethnic minority, leaving the other 95% to their own device ?
What I found the most disturbing is that most people in this blog seems to think they are so big on diversity. Yet they cannot even comprehend that another sovereign country chooses a different approach to their own. Start by tackling your own predjudices instead of commenting on others.

[christopher muir]

Who will be able to ever interview Sarkozy successfully? His most recent TF1 appearance was fascinating. He galloped along, barely giving the interviewers a chance to ask questions by simply never pausing for breath. It didn't sound to me as though he had a solution to prevent future riots. It's hard to imagine that he won't have to throw money at this problem. Somehow, he didn't convince me that he was anxious to get to the true causes of the crisis...perhaps philosophy isn't his strength; it will be fascinating to hear his plans.

[Frank Schnittger]

"They make the same confusion as Mr. Schnittger, between Law and people's feelings. The Law protects them from discrimination, but doesn't make them welcome into society" - Valentin

The problem here Valentin, is that the Law also prevents engagement by the State with the particular issues that are of specific concern to particular immigrant groups because it refuses to allow their issues to be publicly acknowledged and measured.

It is this lack of engagement by the state and its bureaucrats with the realities on the ground that is the problem, not some laudable non-discriminatory ideal.

Indeed it is this refusal to give any recognition to these particular issues and attempt any accommodation toward such groups that is in itself a form of latent (and possibly unintended) discrimination because it means that immigrants can never identify with the state as at least partly, THEIR state.

Assimilation/integration is a process that requires, at its starting point, a recognition of differences by BOTH sides. You seem to imply that it is only mainstream French feelings that are important. Remember these "immigrants" have often been in France for generations!

[Valentin]

Frank:
"Indeed it is this refusal to give any recognition to these particular issues "

Depends how you look at it, I thought that was clear. Dominique noted that too, it's a question of filled glass/empty glass. IMHO the French view reflects French culture and social organisation, which is not quite the same as that of the US or UK.

"You seem to imply that it is only mainstream French feelings that are important. Remember these "immigrants" have often been in France for generations!"

Both are important, what I say is that it's a matter of priority. This is directly related to France not being an immigration country (no need to challenge that btw, just look at Lily's explanation of melting-pot US, if you don't agree, we're once more stuck on a cultural difference of viewpoint). Or when the country is not immigration-made, the immigrants will be guests. In the beginning, and as long as they choose to stay apart, not learn the language, not adopt the customs (without this meaning they should give up their own).

[Sherise]

Paul stated,

"To me, this is ideological contamination by some countries who do have serious problems (the US), and others that will just copycat them without thinking weither or not it applies to their case (that's the UK)."

Can you clarify exactly what you mean by 'real problems'? As a person of color who has lived and worked in the US, UK, and France, I can assert that ALL three have 'real' problems and certainly have work to do in improving the situation for minorities in their countries. That being said, although we don't have statistics here in France, all one needs to do is go to work, open a newspaper, look at the leaders of the CAC40, look at the government leaders, talk to minorities here etc to see that the US, for all it's ills, has made a lot more progress in this area in the last 40yrs than France (although there is still more progress needed). Why is this? Perhaps b/c the history of 'visible minorities' in France is a lot shorter than in the States? Hopefully this is the reason b/c, if so, logically the problem should improve with time... However, who knows? Can the situation really be improved without substantive policies, public will, etc to change it?

Perhaps France cannot follow a similar model to that of the US - it would be great if they could find a way to deal with this issue without having to use facts, figures, and quotas (although, to be honest, I'm not sure this is realistic). Maybe France could focus more on social mobilty (as you suggest) as an alternative to tackling issues around discrimination. However, one has to recognise there's a 'real' problem in order to resolve it...

[stet]

Te controversy is complex and serious, with statisticians and other kinds of researchers in both sides, with actually more than two sides in the debates -- a demanding controversy, in which almost everybody shares the concern of the recognition of some state of affairs. Not a French curious nonsense or a matter of lazy taboos.

Observe what was the law about (not about public statistics but about immigration control and integration) and observe how appropriate was the constitutional objection in this respect.

[stet]

By the way: the riots are not ethnic.

[Paul]

As I said, the real problems of the US / UK is their social fluidity, far lower than what's perceived by their populations. The consequence of this mis-perception is the continuous flow of advice from anglo media and blog followers, towards european countries which do not need any lesson on the subject, quite the opposite. Another misconception: "Perhaps b/c the history of 'visible minorities' in France is a lot shorter than in the States?". History of visible minorities in this area of the world predates the roman empire, and never stoped since.

[christoph]

Interesting that France is hiterto unreported (as is the rest of the EU)in the British media.('Abroad' consists of India , Pakistan and Africa.)Now we have some (very) localised riots , not front page news here , and the UK press is awash with stories of how racist the French are. Emmm wonder why.

[Maggie G]

I live just down the street from the Géant Casino on the bord de mer. This is a giant supermarket with a least 35 checkout counters and probably several hundred employees. As far as I can see, they are all white. I have never seen a non-white cashier, shelf-stocker or floor sweeper. Why is this? It seems to me that they must have a whites-only policy.

If you go up the hill to the small ED supermarket, there are lots of arabs in the fruit and vegetable section, and cashiers of various colours.

There's a black girl in the post office, which shows that Dominique is right when he says the civil service takes whoever can pass the exam.

But why are there only whites at Casino? What does this mean?

[D]

The DNA stuff is scarry and brings back bad memories for many, I know it was nearly 70 years ago but some French people suddenly became Jewish and went to their death.When my mother had to renew her ID card after the Pasqua's laws she got told by an civil servant that she wasn't really French as her mother was a Spanish-Civil War refuge, despite the fact she was born in France, married a French man and is unmistakably French, down to " l'esprit Franchouillard". My mother saw red, it bought back to her the racism she and her family suffered growing up. She had to keep quiet about her Spanish ancestry just to survive. I, on the other hand, don't see why I have to, it's only when I came to the UK that I could be Spanish too. She understand why these children riot, even if she does not agree with their method of expressing their frustration. They have the internet and satellite dishes, but they have no access to the West's riches despite being so close. They are humiliated daily because they are Arabs, Black, because of their "backward religion" and their bad PR as an emigrant group. The National press and TV are happy to push " the barbarians are at the gates please vote for a tough guy" agenda. When you have so many "law and order/ reality shows on TV you know the scarred and captive audience has chosen the soft-lobotomy option rather than instropection.I totally agree with "The French nationalist ideology of the Nation State requiring clone-like citizens could be put to the test if people started talking about how different citizens were." This is why information on ethnicity should be welcome, even if it " opens a can of worms".

[azloon]

Dominique --

i wasn't suggesting that americans not having qualms about statistics regarding race is a superior attitude towards this issue, simply noticing the interesting divergence from french attitudes and practice.

the u.s. had a HUGE wake-up call when supreme court decisions and civil rights legislation did not accomplish the desired outcome of eliminating or even significantly reducing discrimination in pulic life. we felt we had to recognize race as a relevant statistic in addressing this situation. and we RELUCTANTLY, and with much controversy, recognized that affirmative action was required to redress a hundred and fifty years of inequality. that was our choice, simply our response to what we saw as longstanding mistreatment of our (then) largest minority. how did we know it was our largest minority? we gathered statistical information.

i don't believe the french situation even remotely approaches the magitude of the problem that the u.s. faced fifty years ago. but it is likely to get worse, and require fresh french approaches. this may actually require the french to alter some long-standing attitudes.

[azloon]

Paul --

do you hear and understand Sherise?

what is it about "france has a problem" that you don't understand ??????????????????

[Paul]

Azloon,
What part of "you've got bigger problems and stop commenting from the other side of the planet on the basis of "information" gathered blogs and murdoch's media" don't you understand ?

[John Gregory Flinn]

I feel I have an interest here having two children in the French education system of mixed ethnicity - English/Korean.

Your blog, Charles, appears to concentrate on "France's minority of black and Maghrebin origin".
Why?

I read what you say but I believe there is a fallacy in your
argument.
Having been a schoolteacher in England I'm prepared to venture that the problem is more to do with the educational standard these particular individuals attain. The reasons for which may well be unwelcome/inconvenient.

Measuring the origins etc., will only spawn an unseemly 'industry' that will hide the facts, lobby hard to justify its own existence, call itself multicultural and condemn its critics as racist!

My children get asked about their origins and, to date, I cannot say it has had any material affect on their progress, or integration in France. (Curiously, more French people are prepared to speak english to my wife than to me.)

I suppose the acid test will come when they apply for jobs.
However Alex Turk is surely being naive - there is no doubt that such a (discriminatory) survey will conclude exactly that "...the fact of being black has a negative impact on a career".

I should add that details of countries of origin already exist in French officialdom.
The form 'Déclarations Préremplie -Revenu' for French Taxes require it under 'Lieu de naissance'.

[RJ]

Charles, I agree with the Constitutional Council here in refusing to allow racial/ethnic data on the French to be collected, b/c that can only lead to massive trouble down the road in terms of increasing divisiveness through things like affirmative action.

I live in the USA, and affirmative action, race-based welfare and other such schemes are steadily destroying our country. Especially as Americans of White ethnicity become a minority, the affirmative action burden on that population explodes as the proportion of non-Whites increases. (I am of Bangladeshi origin BTW so I have no dog in this fight.) Were racial data to be collected in France, we'd see the same tendency there-- affirmative action and race-conscious schemes to give handouts and preferences to an "underprivileged" group (though privileged in the eyes of the law) at the expense of the indigenous French population.

I work in engineering fields, and the affirmative action practice-- penalizing native-born Whites by race while giving benefits to those of non-White origin or "visible minorities"-- is extremely pervasive in the USA, Canada, the UK and Australia, and it's very frustrating for the native White population here. Some have even moved to countries like France or Germany in recent years if they can speak some French or German, and while I doubt that affirmative action has much to do with motivating the move (the strong Euro and earning power seems to be the main factor), nonetheless they like the fact that they can get a nice job and earn a salary in France or Germany on the basis of their relative merits.

IMHO, France in fact probably has the best policy due to the checks and balances there. Race is discounted, so affirmative action and other such foolish policies are kept out. Yet *behavioral markers*-- criminality, job holding and, yes, immigration status-- are taken into account. Law-breakers and rioters are summarily deported back to Morocco, Mali, Algeria or whatever.

I have no problem with this. The Moroccans and other Arabs who work hard and contribute to society are allowed to stay, while the ones who cause trouble are kicked out. They're evicted from France for their behavior and crimes, not their ethnic origin itself.

[Dominique]

Maggie G,

Amazing Casino! I noticed the very same ethnic uniformisatio in the Casino of metro station Pyrennées in Paris : all are indians! (from top to bottom). Amazing. It probably just means that local manager hire who they want.

[Maggie G]

A lot of the French people here get uptight when us "Anglo-Saxons" say that the French policy of not collecting ethnic data doesn't make much sense.

But it really doesn't. If people want to denounce their neighbours, they will do it. Did the Tutsis and the Hutus in Rwanda relied on census data to identify their enemies? Did the Serbs use statistics to track down their victims in Bosnia? So the French don't collect ethnic data because it might become a "racist tool". Who are they trying to fool? The day the French authorities decide to start cracking down on "undesirables", be they Jewish, Malian, Pakistani, Algerian or Dutch, they will find ways to identify them, with or without statistics.

And census data is normally collected without taking names, isn't it?

If all French citizens are equal before the law, then they're equal before the law, period. Identifying or not identifying their "pays d'origine" has nothing to do with it. Absolutely nothing.

France isn't the only country in the world where all citizens are equal before the law. There's nothing unique about that at all. It's the same just about everywhere in the west, I should think. Maybe in China members of the Communist party have more rights than ordinary Chinese. Maybe in Saudi Arabia members of the Royal family have more rights than non-royal citizens. But even in most African countries, one tribe is officially equal to another tribe, although this may not be the case in reality. But is it the reality in France? In theory, an Algerian French citizen is equal to a white French citizen, but why are there no Algerian French citizens working in the Géant Casino in the bord de mer?

On the other hand, all us countries who proclaim that all our citizens are equal, but who take down ethnic data anyway, have all sorts of useful information that we can use for all sorts of interesting purposes, as several people before me have already pointed out -- from providing languages classes for newcomers to discovering health problems relating to certain racial groups. How would we know that black people are prone to sickle cell disease if we didn't identify them as blacks? How would we know that Japanese Americans who take up an American diet start developing cardio-vascular disease just like white Americans, if we didn't identify them as Japanese?

[Valentin]

I don't have any statistics about asian families; I do note they can't be seen on TV burning cars.
But I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that statistics can PINPOINT a problem, reveal its existence, but not its CAUSES - hence big risk of misusing stats.

Also to add that French laws forbidding references to race or origin, are NOT targeted at the subject person, in order to wipe out her difference,
but are targeted at the REST of the society, so that no one else be allowed to discriminate that person for her difference.

Also regarding the German citizenship model:
it is based on ethnic origin, as opposed to the French one, based on the place of birth (droit du sol).
Nationality based on ethnicity brought the savage Balkan wars in the '90s. French could never accept it, and even less some "office" to keep detailed information on ethnic groups of citizens, as if it was about races of cattle. Classifying human beings by race, is simply wrong.

[John Styx]

John Gregory, [I should add that details of countries of origin already exist in French officialdom. The form 'Déclarations Préremplie -Revenu' for French Taxes require it under 'Lieu de naissance'.]

I see what you mean, of course, but just for the record, quite a few French people are born overseas while being -- how may I say this -- "Français de souche". My father was born in Indochina because my grandfather was an officer in the French army at that time. The father of my best friend was born in Algeria for the same reason.

[Valentin]

I've just re-read this paragraph of one of Frank's posts.

"the Law also prevents engagement by the State with the particular issues that are of specific concern to particular immigrant groups"

This is interesting. Could you please give us a few examples of issues in the scope of State's action (related to citizenship, rights, public services...)
where the specificity of immigrant groups should be taken into account?

I thought the State is supposed to treat every citizen the same way, regardless of race, religion, or origin. That's why we wanted a school system without visible religious signs, for instance; or hospitals were people are treated equally professionally by doctors, no matter the patient or the doctor's gender or religion. Public service, like Law, should be community-neutral.

[The 3rd Column]

"But why are there only whites at Casino? What does this mean?" -- Maggie G

Perhaps because not many non-whites apply for the job?

In my little town called Porspoder (Bretagne), there aren't many non-whites. I noticed the same phenomenon in the South West of an already "big town" like Pau where there are quite a number of Chinese who have integrated quite easily.

Too remote perhaps for Algerians, Moroccans, Tunisians, Indians, etc. who would rather live in a bigger, more cosmopolitan town like Paris, Marseilles, Bordeaux, etc. or in their surrounding areas.

[Valentin]

News from the trial of the kids in Marseille who set a bus on fire in 2005 and almost burnt to death a black woman.
Their explanation for their deeds:

we didn't mean to, we did like we saw on TV.

So much for theories of "ethnic riots" motivated by "non-white exclusion".

[Lily]

“Classifying human beings by race, is simply wrong.” (Valentin)

Valentin, I might get a few things wrong myself. I don’t think Germans are classified by ‘race’. This gets rather done in the process of immigration or whenever large groups of asylum seekers arrive in Germany. So, Germans know how many people emigrated from Russia or how many others emigrated from former Yugoslavia.

They count their citizens and their geographic repartition – which is important for reasons others have mentioned before.

[Isobel]

There are many different ways of tackling a problem and the French and the British are certainly different! But in defence of the Brits and other Anglo Saxons at least they make an effort. A little history - in 1981 there were riots in Brixton (South London) and in areas of other large cities - Bristol and Liverpool to be precise.
Two days after the Brixton riots an enquiry was ordered by the Home Secretary into the problem (this was the first Thatcher Government - hardly wishy washy liberal!).The chair of the enquiry was Lord Scarman a highly respected Judge and Law Lord. The following is from his obituary in The Times following his death in 2004.
"IN A distinguished judicial career Lord Scarman won an assured place in the annals of English law as the outstandingly successful chairman of the Law Commission during the first seven years of its life, and he went on to become a Lord of Appeal in Ordinary from 1977 to 1986. A man of radical and progressive instincts, he also made a notable contribution to public life in his conduct of several important inquiries and he was an eloquent protagonist of a Bill of Rights for the United Kingdom.
But in no instance was his liberal humanity and understanding of social issues better displayed than in his remarkable report on the Brixton riots of 1981, which had shaken the country to the core and seemed to many to indicate an impending breakdown in the social fabric of inner cities, as well as a final proof that a policy of racial integration had utterly failed.

On the night of April 10, 1981, two police officers in Brixton were attempting to help a black youth who had been stabbed, when they were surrounded by a hostile crowd. In an atmosphere in which the local community was already feeling persecuted by a police operation called “Swamp”, which had led to the arbitrary stopping and searching of large numbers of young black men, the atmosphere turned ugly and the confrontation quickly escalated. A night of rioting ensued in which 300 people were injured, houses and other premises were damaged, and vehicles were wrecked.

A feeling akin to panic gripped large areas of the country, accompanied by an emotion (among those, that is, who were not of the “I told you so” persuasion) of despair that so many years of patient and positive progress in the field of race relations in this country, since the Notting Hill riot of 1958, had been apparently cast away in one night. Appointed to chair the inquiry into the riots, Scarman demonstrated not only great even-handedness, but an impressive grasp of social conditions in Brixton, and a readiness to apportion blame to the forces of law and order without in any way seeming to curry favour with the black community at the expense of the police.

While praising the police for their moderation on the night, in the face of such a sudden and widespread outbreak of violence on the streets, he pointed to the “racial disadvantage that is a fact of British life” as being its root cause. And his investigation concluded that the riots had been the result of a crowd reaction to what it believed — rightly or wrongly — was yet another instance of the harassment of black people. Scarman called for a new emphasis on community policing and he urged the the Government to tackle the fundamental causes of unrest — racial disadvantage and a disproportionately high level of unemployment among young black men.

The justness of this analysis seemed almost of itself to have a healing effect on a raw public mood, in which opinion had become polarised. Without doubt the Scarman report was a milestone on the road back to the establishment of much better relations between black and white people in the country at large."

[Daniel Strohl]

Maggie G,

"but why are there no Algerian French citizens working in the Géant Casino in the bord de mer?"

I don't know, but there are employees both of North African and African (or Ile de la Réunion or Antilles) origin working in the two supermarkets where we go shopping for "ordinary goods". Both are Super U. There is also a smaller Géant Casino, a brand new Intermarché and a big Leclerc.

I will do an ethnic statistics "survey" next time we go shopping. I hope I will not get in trouble with the law - LOL.

[Lily]

Maggie G.,

I’d like to ask you an off-topic question. Would you mind sending me an email for that purpose? Thanks. (lilyalmond@yahoo.fr)

[Emmanuel]

Pretty interesting debate here.

I have the feeling the French are aware that the "official blindness" doctrine has to evolve. The argument that statistics may help to pinpoint an issue is very strong. On the other hand once the pandora box is open ...

When I read some heineous reactions for readers in le Figaro and even Times (see reaction to article about Villier le Bel) I cannot help thinking the we French need to be very very careful about these statistics. It could be very easily exploited by politicians to fane some latent racism of the population and lead to quasi civil war situations in France.

About affirmative action, I find the discussion very complex. Especially after listening to a France-Culture programme and a lengthy discussion with my wife.

To make things short: it is obvious that some Arab and black people needs to be put in high profile positions to send the most needed message that the French society is cabable of offering a future to everybody. It is also the best way to counter the discourse of banlieu's clans that feel discriminate therefore feel that they have the right to f... everything.

On the other hand, how do we ensure that this "affirmative actions" is done the right way without statistics and measurment? No simple answer here.

Finally, I have the feeling like Valentin, that we French ought to stick with the "republican model" as opposed to the "multi cultural society". And again it is not about forsaking its own identity or religion. It is keeping it a private matter. I believe that it will produce a more stable society in the long term. It certainy needs adjustments.

[Emmanuel]

Another comment:

I can understand that this French doctrine about official blindness seems to contradict the common sense: in the street you can see that some people are black, arabs, white, asian, etc. so why should not we be allowed to do the same with statistics?

Well, defining the 'boudaries' between, black, white, ... is not an easy task. For myself I am half vietnamese, half French. I which category should I be accounted for?

Another well known argument against etnic statistics is what we call "la victimisation". Basically, once ethnic groups start to become political objects, each of them may try to advocate that they are the most victimized of the lot.

As suggested Paul, it may be preferrable to find / define other criteras, that are more neutral but enable to guide differentialed policies such as:

- income
- skills in written / spoken French
- education
- area with high unemployment / high crime.

Again, this is not about building an uniform society. People on the field / in the streets need be aware about various cultures and habits. They need to care about (e.g. religious holidays in companies, food prescription in school restaurants). It's about handling people in a non discriminatory way. Even if this sounds a bit hypocrital, it is a bringing peace in the relationships in the long term.

On the other hand, in France, you can celebrate, particular cultures or religions by organizing events, gathering in associations or religious comunities without any problem. Again, the model is not perfect. It needs to be adjusted to the new realty (and it is being done by the society itself) but it also need to be understood, preserved and defended sometime.

[Valentin]

From two stories by the New York Times (nov.30) and the International Herald Tribune (nov.29):

"It feels like we live in a war zone," said Nadège Tanier, a 40-year-old mother of two, as she walked by the burned-out hulk of a garbage truck still reeking of burned tires. "I feel safer for having all those cops on the streets and the helicopter at night making sure the kids are not planning more riots, but it sure is hard to live like this."

Among the buildings that were torched Sunday and Monday, was a complex housing a nursery school and a library with a children's section. The 135 children who are enrolled in the preschool had to be relocated to four makeshift classrooms in a nearby primary school. ... in interviews with residents on Thursday, it became plain that there was little sympathy for rioters claiming to seek revenge for their friends' deaths.

"I don't like the way police are treating the kids sometimes, and I know they have not got many economic opportunities, but there is no excuse for the violence and the destruction," said Nora Hemmal, a Moroccan immigrant, who had hoped to enroll her one-year-old daughter next year in the nursery which was destroyed. "Most of us are just caught in the middle."

French media too reflect the same thing: rioters are hardly representing some "malaise social".

[azloon]

Hey Paul --

i don't know what nationality you are but you've seem to have a major problem with receiving constructive criticism. what is this hyper-sensitivity all about? afraid someone outside your mildly delusional deceit is "on to you?"

[azloon]

oh, maggie, stop being so logical. remember, you live in oz.

[George]

What a shame and scandal that our EU parliament in Strasburg, France, is not having a well-publicised debate at the same level as this blog. Instead our EU governments seem unconcerned and reluctant to learn from each other - preferring nationalist competition all the year round. What is the point of the Strasburg parliament, if not to discuss issues such as this at times like this?
My memory may be faulty, but I seem to remember that Ken Livingstone was one of the first elected British politicians to champion ethnic monitoring, when head of the GLC about 25 years ago, when he was living in Brent, London's most multi-ethnic borough. Very few British people, black or white, have challenged its now widespread use since then, but it would be nice to hear about the results - especially in other EU countries.

[Lily]

"French media too reflect the same thing: rioters are hardly representing some "malaise social"." (Valentin)

Somehow the kids in my village in Province love those games, too but none has ever had the idea to riot.

If politics and media focus on those games alone that is a good tool for them to not spend any money on fighting the underlying causes.

[Maggie G]

"oh, maggie, stop being so logical. remember, you live in oz." (Azloon)

Sorry, Azloon, I'm kinda dumb, I don't get what you mean. I know my arguments aren't very sophisticated -- if you want to attack them, go ahead. I can take it (I THINK)

[dot king]

ISOBEL, thanks for the memory-jog about the 1981 riots in Brixton and Southall - I'd been trying to remember them accurately, because they marked a real turning point in the way the UK tackled its current (then) and potential problems and resulted in a constructive anti-racist policy. The Scarman Report was indeed as wise as it was independent, but I wonder if France has his equal.
I've noticed that the words "nationality" and "race" are used as if they were interchangeable in some posts and I think we need to remember that these are quite different in meaning and implication.

[Peter Athey]

To answer Pierre Lebrun's query about how we know that asian students as more scholastically successful compared to other communities, and by definition other immigrant groups. You only have to look at offical international statistics from reputable organisations to see this is the case across the world. We can therefore safely assume this is also the case in France.

In australia, the science departments of the most reputable universities are dominated by asian students. In the USA, 40% of physics students are either the American offspring of asian immigrant parents or are direct, first-generation immigrants who are in the USA to study. At Bell Labs, a significant % of the researchers are Indians (from India - not native americans)who travelled to America to do their PhD's then stay on to do post-doc work at this prestigious laboratory.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/14/education/14students.html

http://pmsol3.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/east-asian-students-still-top-in-math-and-science/

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/rvp/pubaf/chronicle/v9/d14/timss.html

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/wmpdse94/hilites/minorits.htm

Students in Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, Hong Kong and Japan significantly outperform American students on math and science tests, according to a new study from a U.S. At the IMO (international Mathematics Olympiad) Chinese participants regularly take the Gold Medals.

Here are some cogent FACTS:

Q. Who is the co-founder of Sun Microsystems?
A. Vinod Khosla

Q. Who created the Pentium chip used in 90% of computers?
A. Vinod Dahm

Q. Who is the third richest man on the world?
A. According to a report on Fortune Magazine, it is Aziz Premji, who is the CEO of Wipro Industries. The Sultan of Brunei is at 6th position now.

Q. Who is the founder and creator of Hotmail (Hotmail is world's No.1 web based email program)?
A. Sabeer Bhatia

Q. Who is the president of Bell Labs an arm or the Alcatel-Lucent Group(where, to name but a few, the transistor and cellphone were invented and where program languages such as C, C++, Unix were developed,and which has >30 000 registered patents)?
A. Dr. Jeong Kim

Q . Who was the GM of Hewlett Packard before starting his own successful technology company?
A. Rajiv Gupta

Q. Who was the MTD (Microsoft Testing Director) of Windows 2000, responsible for ironing out all initial problems?
A. Sanjay Tejwrika

Fact: Indians are the wealthiest among all ethnic groups in America, faring better than the whites and the natives.

Fact: There are 3.22 million Indians in the USA (1.5% of the population). YET, 38% of doctors in USA are Indians. 12% scientists in USA are Indians. 36% of NASA scientists are Indians. 34% of Microsoft employees are Indians. 28% of IBM employees are Indians. 17% of INTEL scientists are Indians. 13% of XEROX employees are Indians.

So, in my opinion, all minority groups should look to these people as role-models rather than the tawdry gangsta' rap headliners or other Loft-Story (Big-brother) wannabe's when attempting to establish a niche for themselves in the country they choose to live in.

[john o'doe]

I also got the impression from Sarko's tv interview/speech that he hasn't got any idea of how to tackle the problem. Before the presidential elections he said he favoured positive discrimination for immigrant origin minorities. We havn't heard any more of that since he was elected.
During the campaign he shocked a good number of people including his own supporters by a sinister proposal to set up a ministry of immigration and national identity and this he did.
The minister in charge is hell bent on acheiving his target of throwing out 25,000 illegal immigrants in the year. There seems to be no action on the national identity part of this ministry.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

I guess you are not American, Peter Athey, as when they say "Indians" they mean "Native Americans" who superceded Columbus and his crew. The British always say "Red Indians" to differentiate.
So -- what percentage of native americans are doctors, scientists, or work in Microsoft?

[Valentin]

"Somehow the kids in my village in Province love those games, too but none has ever had the idea to riot."

I know, that's why I said it's different to comment from Luberon or Saintonge. You know, when students rose against the CPE a year ago, did you see HOW they did it? That's what I call a protest. And even if it becomes far more violent and radical, you still should still be able to tell it's a protest, not organized crime.

I can understand rebellion too, I remember what Terry said about the right to bear arms and to rebel against an oppressing government. But this is a grownup privilege, or in any case, not one of 14 yo-s.

[la brume]

Hello Charles

I am a regular visitor of your blog and I have got a question for you : how can I get a print friendly version of your blog and its comments?
Thank you

[Dragon Horse]

Peter Athey :

Your comparison above is apples and oranges. Indians do not tend to do well in Trinidad, Guyana, and especially not in Malaysia. They do well in the UK, Singapore, and some other places though.

Why? It is due to the source population. India has over 1 billion people, it is not shocking that they can produce the amount of high level people you say, but those people are a small minority of the Indian global population. The average Indian in functionally illiterate and nearly as poor as many SubSaharan Africans. That is the reality.

You are talking about elite populations with specialized skills. Any society has those...Nigeria does to, the difference is that Nigeria has 200 million, while India has 5X that population.

Indians obviously were the same nationality as Bangladeshi and Pakistanis less than 100 years ago and those two groups tend to do poorly in the UK as compared to Hindus of upper caste.

There is obviously some self selection bias involved here.

If I took the top 10% of black Americans and put them in the UK there is no doubt they will outperform the average white Englishman...it is comparing a specialized group of elites to average people.

Not all Asians do well, not even all Indian immigrant groups. Most of the Indians in America and the UK immigrated as specialized labor, highly educated, etc. They did not come as laborers like the Indians in Malaysia or the Pakistanis in the UK.

It is not a miracle that the children of the educated or wealthier do better than the poor backward laborer who came to do manual labor.

In the U.S.

Some Asians broken out have very high crime and poverty rates, check out Hawaii crime rate some time, not the most peaceful state despite it being over 60% Asian/Pacific Islanders.

In Vancouver Indians are often in trouble with the law and run drugs in gangs to Seattle and down into California.

Asians are not a monolith, they are not "one ethnic group", Southeast in American on average at all, and have very high poverty rates, I know Vietnamese Americans in Cali have higher welfare rates than blacks and Hispanics, because they have higher poverty rates. Hmong in Minnesota don't do well either.

I think it is best to hear it from a knowledgeable Asian American:

http://www.asian-nation.org/model-minority.shtml

[Frank Schnittger]

WOW - what a high level of debate! And not a snark in sight. You've really inspired people to think about this topic, Charles.

Please allow me to comment briefly on a few contributions.

"Public service, like Law, should be community-neutral". - Valentin

The Law (and crucially, it's enforcement) should certainly be community neutral, but shouldn't public services be related to actual needs?

Otherwise who tackles the particular problems of the Banlieues. The Free market?

Please note the constructive comments on the Scarman report - thanks Isobel.

Thanks also to Emmanuel for your very balanced comments. There is, indeed, an argument to be made both for "republican" values based approaches to state intervention, and for a more explicitly "multi-cultural" approach.

As many writers have noted, the causes of the unrest are multi-factorial and cannot be reduced to race or any one factor. All I have been arguing for is that any research into those problems (and subsequent state intervention) also has to be multi-factorial and take all of the causes and possible solutions into account.

What may work well in one suburb may work less well in another because of a different mix of causes partly related to a different cultural or ethnic population mix.

Just because you allow objective research and intervention based on real and detailed statistical analysis (amongst many other things) does NOT mean you are setting the agenda for some kind of racist political movement.

In fact, the very fact that French people seem to be so concerned that ethnic statistics could be so open to misuse seems to indicate that they are aware of, and afraid of, a huge latent racism in French society which could be unleashed if given a focus by statistics saying (e.g.) that more Algerian husbands beat their wives.. PLEASE TELL ME THIS ISN'T TRUE!

Remember that statistics can also be used for a positive purpose - see Peter Athey's ode to the achievements of Indians abroad - which would not have been possible without ethnic statistics - now what can other immigrant groups learn from that?

Maggie - don't mind Azloon - he likes the way you ask simple but effective questions. Allow me a similar anecdote or factoid.

There is a crisis in nursing in Ireland because we have been training insufficient nurses for a number of years. As a result, there are a huge number of foreign nurses in our hospitals. In one major Dublin hospital one department is completed staffed by Filipino nurses, another by Indians, another by South Africans etc.

When I asked why they were so segregated by department, I was told they were all very competent, hard working and professional, but didn’t get on very well with each other! It could be argued that hospital management were adopting racist Apartheid policies, or that they were recognising cultural differences and that the overall teamwork and nursing performance required good communications and people working well together. (PS there are loads of Indian doctors all over the place).

IS that racism, is it pragmatism, is it recognising and celebrating cultural pluralism? Answers on a postcard please….

[azloon]

Maggie --

i was clumsily praising your totally sensible arguments posted above.

i should have said, 'we blog in oz,' where all that is sensible is derided as nonsense, and vice versa.

the whole discussion is rather bizarre, imo. the prominent native french here are 'coming from' a place that most of the rest of us can't fathom. and they keep mouthing their intransigent repubican mantra until they're 'blue in the face,' and the rest of us are ready to scream.

here goes:

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Valentin]

Peter, you mistake us for racists, I'm afraid.
There are many artists and writers of foreign origin that I admire, that's not the issue.
I don't look down on immigrants, or on arabs or whatever, my problem is not with immigrants being gangsta'rap. My problem is with THOSE who behave thuggishly, IMMIGRANTS OR NOT !

[Pierre Lebrun]

Peter Athey, thanks for the FACT barrage, which we were all very well aware of.

I wasn't asking about Indian/East Asian prowess in science in the US/UK/OZ, I was asking about where are the signs of Asian success in France, which Donald claimed?

I don't think you can make assumptions based on the anglo-saxon experience, because there are many differences between France and the US/UK in terms of immigration policy etc.etc..

Oh and finally, I have to say you should probably be careful of making generalisations about ethnicities based on such FACTS. There are so many external factors for these, but this is a separate debate.

[Penny]

Look Charles, it's not just the colour of skin that gets you discriminated against in France. This inhuman and xenophobic regime is in the process of chucking out of the health care system sick and old people. France is currently descending into a banana republic mentality. EU citizens who have paid VAST sums in taxes and social charges over the years are now going to be made illegal immigrants in March if they can't afford private health insurance, despite being in France as LEGAL RESIDENTS for more than 5 years. And why is this? They just happen to be other EU citizens that's all! This directive doesn't apply to other nationalities. And guess who the biggest group of non-French EU nationals is in France? When are you going to cover THIS story?

[Thanks Penny. We covered the health cover problem of Britons in France a couple of months ago, at the start of the affair, in both the newspaper and the blog. I'm going to come back to it as soon as possible since it has moved on a lot. CB]

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

Good postings, nearing 200, especially the Dublin hospital with the segregation, of their own volition, of Filipino, Indian and South African nurses. No racism here, simply that they prefer to work alongside their own kind, because they don't get on with the others.
A saying as old as a world: Birds of a feather flock together.
How the Politicians want us all to live as one big happy family. Human nature, however makes it rather difficult.
It is 50 years since I covered the Notting Hill riots as a crime reporter. The police had found weapons (not guns) and wanted confessions, which they acquired by putting the black man's head in the toilet bowl and pullng the chain until he signed. Scores of "digs" had notices No Blacks No Irish No Dogs. Quizzing the violent whites they told me they had "form" for "topping" (killing a man) and hoisting (thieving). They threw a road-works lantern through the window of a West Indian woman who ran out to confront them, waving and axe, and I was photographed interviewing her. I moved on to other stories but a Sunday paper investigated. Who was hiring the London thugs? A polish Jew who had escaped from a German concentration camp, named Peter Rachman. To get the properties he "put in the Schwartses to de-stat it." Blacks defecating on old pensoners' doorsteps soon made them move, and white criminals threatening the blacks made them move, so RACHMANISM is now a word in the English language. Ruthless and bitter, he became a property millionaire.
20 years ago when a Tory politician (he had asked: When England play the Windies, who do you cheer?)advised "get on your bikes and look for work" my step-son was told at a Polish cafe: "We don't employ English here, only Poles." All the staff were illegal. Further up the road, in North London he applied for work in a Chemist's shop run by Indians. "You have to clean the toilet," they told him. Because we cannot do it." They had failed, it seemed, to find "an Untouchable" to perform this task.
I live in South London. There have been 18 killings by black kids (guns and knives) in the past 18 months. I have not been been out at night for 5 years.
How times have changed!
As the camp doctor cried out at the end of "The Bridge Over the River Kwai: "Madness....Madness.."

[Pierre]

The only acceptable analysis would be national, not ethnic. There is no obvious basis for judging (which begins with measuring) anyone on the basis of their skin colour. Note that the existing categories already lump scots and italian together. Why not Italians and arabs? And does anyone on this educated blog now really believe that there is any such thing as an "Anglo-saxon"?

Nationalities form an objective reality. Shades of colour do not. You should see how much my skin changes depending on how much sun it's had!

[Dominique]

Franck S,

"the very fact that French people seem to be so concerned that ethnic statistics could be so open to misuse seems to indicate that they are aware of, and afraid of, a huge latent racism in French society which could be unleashed if given a focus by statistics"

That's really getting mad! What about "In fact, the very fact that French people seem to be so concerned that crime remains forbidden seems to indicate that they are aware of, and afraid of, a huge latent wave of crimes that could be unleashed if given a focus by authorisation".

what is that supposed to mean? Fighting racism is aknowledging that racism exist? Well, you just discovered hot water. Yes Franck, racism does exist! welcome to the world.

We'll soon hear France is racist because they have people from all colors on their soil, and had therefore to implement this racist concept of "citizenship" .

When i read Franck, i see that the politically correct multicutural ideology is clearly getting mad

This logic is absolutly ...unreal.

To all the French people who are dead against multiculturalism (or what Valentin calls communitarism) -- you might be interested to know that it is because of your darling "chers cousins" in Quebec that multiculturalism was first introduced, because after nearly 250 years, your chers cousins are still resisting "assimilation". (And you think the Muslims are slow!!)

When we were kids we were always told that the US was a "melting pot" whereas Canada was a "mosaic".
Partly this was because communities in Canada were more isolated so kept their ethnic distinctions and languages longer than in the States, and partly of course, this was because there were TWO founding nations.

In 1971 the Trudeau government passed the Canadian Multiculturalism Act as a kind of gimmick to dilute the anglophone/francophone problem. Since official