Gaddafi lands in French storm

Muammar Gaddafi is landing about now at Orly airport. But the arrival of the Libyan leader in Paris for the first time since 1973 has already stirred up a hornet's nest. It may even cost the job of Rama Yade, President Sarkozy's young Minister for Human Rights [picture below]. 

Yade, 31, has joined in a chorus of indignation over Sarko's invitation to "The Tyrant of the Desert", as the papers are calling Gaddafi. Everyone is piling joyously into Sarko for conferring the royal treatment on the former international pariah.  The Presidency has erected a huge Bedouin tent for Gaddafi in a garden alongside the Elysée Palace. The Guide, as he likes to be called, has booked himself six fun days in Paris, including meetings with "leading women" and Renault factory workers and outings to the Chateau de Versailles and a spot of mounted fox-hunting. His whims are sending the protocol people spare. The visit was supposed to last three days. Gaddafi announced that he would prefer two weeks. He is now going to leave after five days in and around the French capital.   

There is a strong whiff of humbug  in the outcry from the leftwing opposition and most of the media. France, they note, is a country of high moral principles. After cosying up to Presidents Putin of Russia, Hu Jintao of China, and now Gaddafi, Sarkozy is breaching his election promises to put human rights before business, they say.   

That is all fair game for the opposition, who are happy to forget the shady regimes befriended by the late President Mitterrand and the, shall we say, pragmatic conduct of  foreign policy by all French leaders since Charles de Gaulle in the 1960s.

But there has not in my memory been a case of a President coming under such public attack from his own team.

Bernard Kouchner, the leftwing rights campaigner who is Sarko's Foreign Minister, was trying to be diplomatic in a radio interview this morning but he could not disguise his contempt for the Gaddafi visit. Kouchner said that "lucky timing" meant that he will be in Brussels and escape tonight's state dinner for the Colonel at the Elysée Palace. 

Yade's outburst was the most astonishing. She may have kissed goodbye to her ministerial future by saying in Le Parisien: "Colonel Gaddafi must understand that our country is not a doormat upon which a leader, whether terrorist or not, can come and wipe from his feet the blood of his crimes. France must not receive this kiss of death."

There is no doubt that Gaddafi sees his Paris stay as the consecration of his return to respectability. Sarkozy invited him last July to pay his first full-scale visit to a western nation since he renounced his nuclear programme and terrorism in 2003.  The deal was part of the package in the release of the Bulgarian nurses and Palestinian doctor after nine years in Libyan prisons. 

Pierre Moscovici, the Socialist who is chairing a parliamentary investigation into Sarkozy's dealings with Libya said: "The Gaddafi visit to Paris is the real price for the liberation of the nurses carried out by Mr Sarkozy. He is being rewarded by France and reintroduced at a very high level into the international community."

Ségolène Royal, Sarkozy's Socialist challenger last spring, has just taken her own swipe at the "cynicism of this realpolitik". Why should France invite a sulphurous leader that no other European state wants on a visit. "This realpolitik is a cynicism that is hard to tolerate," she fumed. "The visit is intolerable given that Libya tortures prisoners and  that is now known to everyone."

Sarkozy said over the weekend that he had nothing to apologize for over his invitation to Gaddafi. Britain and Germany rushed faster than France to do business with rehabilitated Libya, even if they have not invited Gaddafi, his staff point out      

While Sarko and his team are on the defensive, it was left to Le Figaro, his strongest media supporter, to offer an unabashed plea for business-as-usual French foreign policy. "It is time that realpolitik stops being a dirty word," said Le Figaro. "There is no shame in recognising and defending our interests with realism."

These interests are expected to include some three billion euros worth of trade deals with Libya this week, including the provision of a nuclear reactor promised by Sarko last summer, and perhaps six Dassault Rafale fighters.  If Gaddafi buys the jets, there will be celebrations at Dassault because, after a decade in production, the company has not managed to sell a single one of its new generation fighters outside France.

[France Soir's welcome for Sarkozy's friend]

   

   

Comments

[azloon]

Rama Yade, of course, has it exactly right. France is about to receive the wet, mushy french 'kiss of death' from the wacko colonel. Keep your eye out for Rama -- she's got a political future in france, with or without the 'ass-kisser.'

real-politik isn't the issue here. as CB points out, britain and germany have solicited and received libyan business since last summer's detente. but that's a long way from giving this murderous thug a congratulatory state visit. this is mostly about sarko's almost pathlogical need to please.

sorry, france, that 'el jefe' is doing this to you. it's a total embarrassment, i'm sure. now you know what's it's like to have a dangerous buffoon as president. :)

i wonder if Gaddafi will receive the young rioters at an official reception in the bedouin tent.

[Jorg Andersen]

Sarkozy has gone too far with Gaddafi. The others, as you say, do business with him, but they don't invite him on state visits. And Sarkozy was the only European to telephone Putin to congratulate him on United Russia's election victory the other day. Angela Merkel gives a much better example on human rights, even if she doesn't win the billion euro deals that are showered on Sarko.

[Emlyn]

If Gaddafi is left to his own resorts, he will continue to ignore all human rights. He might possibly make a few more concessions of the type he made over the Bulgarian nurses as a result of his invitation to France. It is worth taking a chance on.

[John Gregory Flinn]

This isn't the first time that Rama Yade has been outspoken. She seemed to get 'heated' when the gendarmes removed some african squatters from their Paris camp some months ago.

I could not understand her appointment by Sarko - except for her beauty - since her pedigree is quite definitely socialist.
Her husband, Joseph Zimet has been branded a miltant socialist, and her family in Senegal seem to have a similar background.

I understand that she has never been elected to anything, so perhaps her inexperience may become her demise.

As to Gaddafi - well business is business; but this encampment thing may eventually affront Gaddafi's decorum. Pitching a tent in northern Europe in winter is not normally advised - is he entitled to a free French state 'flu injection?

Sarko seems to be concentrating on securing France's (fossil) energy supplies; last week Algerian gas, this week Libyan oil and next week he may be seeking coal from somewhere!

[dot king]

Rama Yade is learning her political lessons unfortunately, today she toned down her original protests by saying that she just didn't agree with receiving Gaddafi on World Human Rights Day. Get out of it through a spot of symbolism.
I too think she has a bright future ahead of her. I just hope she never learns to tone it down systematically.
She really should resign on principle before she can be sacked, though maybe there's some mileage to be got out of getting fired?
Whatever else, she shows courage and honesty in being so outspoken
As for Sarkozy, well, just how many dictators, torturers, terrorists, can you be a drooling lapdog for all at the same time?
IMO Gaddafi is openly mocking Sarkozy, fox-hunting indeed, a Bedouin tent, meeting "leading" women (nursing managers for example?), a spot of tourism at Versailles? Do me a favour . . .
Allez, down and roll over!!

[Daisy]

I wonder if other dictators or FARC are taking notes. Here's how to get what you want. You no longer have to blow up planes. It's a lot simpler these days. First you arrest (or kidnap) some Europeans, charge them with crimes they never committed, sentence them to death and wait for Nicolas to come jetting in to their rescue (meantime, fend off negotiators for pretenders like the EU. They won't give you anything) Save it for Monsieur Nicky or his designated favourite (Rash probably...Ceci took off and Rama's being a bore about that human rights nonsense). They will get much desired publicity and glory and you, dear terrorists, torturers, murderers, get nuclear technology, fighter jets and a glizty welcome in one of the world's most beautiful capital cities. Do you think FARC will get a state dinner in exchange for Mme. Betancourt?

CHARLES: I hope you will keep us posted on who actually attended the state dinner!

[The 3rd Column]

President Sarkozy has invited Gaddafi to Paris and that's that. Members of Government must toe the line.

Ms Yade must know that her stint in Government is not co-terminus with the President's -- she can be sacked at any time.

If Ms Yade cannot toe the presidential line and accept the French president's decision, the right and only decent thing for her to do is to resign illico, no ifs no buts.

Once out of Government, she can do what she damn pleases, criticize the president in public, throw a pie at Gaddafi or whatever.

Now, zip it or get out Ms Yade!

[Daniel Strohl]

John Gregory,

"next week he may be seeking coal from somewhere!

There is a funny colloquial French expression : "aller au charbon" (go to (fetch) the coal) - it means to go to or for work. The expression became famous after it had been used a few times by my favourite Premier Ministre Raymond Barre, who held his office in the seventies during 5 years and who managed to keep the state finances well afloat despite two "chocs pétroliers". After that, we got Mitterrand and his smala (see note), who were busy spending the money – that of course didn't take too long a time ...

More seriously : Sarkozy is indeed « concentrating on securing France's (fossil) energy supplies » - a few days ago, he phoned Putin to congratulate him for the results of the Russian elections. Of course, our « âmes bien pensantes » (well thinking souls) were horrified – Putin, a dictator who had cheated during the elections !

Note : « smala » is defined by the dictionary as being a gathering of tents of an Arab chief with all his family, servants and belongings. Of course, the word may be used in the figurative sense ... That is what I did.

[Daisy]

So what if Rama Yada criticised that miserable worm Sarkozy? She's the human rights minister, it's her job to stand up for human rights. In case you haven't noticed, today is International Human Rights Day and one of the world's biggest finaciers of terrorism is being feted in Paris. Are we all supposed to turn a blind eye and let that Sarkozy do what he wants? At least, Ms. Yada is standing up for something moral and decent.

[John Styx]

Azloon, I couldn't agree with you more. I thought till now Sarko was a fatuous ass. Now he definitely belongs to the "dangerous buffoon" category. Charles, what do I need to get the British nationality?

[Juliette]

Just goes to show one thing: since the only reason why Sarkozy is doing this is to secure fossil fuels, the best way to protect human rights - at least in Russia and Libya, but it also works for Chad, Sudan etc - is to stop using those damn ressources. Once we're fossil fuel free, we'll be able to afford to be much more outspoken.

Good for Ms. Yade and Kouchner. They're becoming more interesting.
John Gregory, Rama Yade is not a socialist because they were stupid enough to let her go when she offered her services. She went where people seemed to listen to her, and that was Sarkozy. I can't stand him, but I must admit, he was very smart to take her in back then. Now, if could be even smarter than him and get out now while everyone still knows how talented she is...

[Donald]

France has a long tradition of pandering to Gadaffi. In the 80's France withheld permission for U.S. bombers flying from Britain to traverse French air space so they had to greatly extend their flight time going through the Straits of Gibraltar to reach Libya. The French were very happy with the outcome though, since Gadaffi, who was almost killed duirng the raid, got the message and stopped terrorist attacks on the continent of Europe including France. But at the time, they didn't want to anger Gadaffi by letting American fighter bombers use their air space in a mission against Libya. France knew the problem Gadaffi was causing, but they refused to be part of the solution.

[Valentin]

'tseems to be rather about more than 10 billion and two dozen Airbus planes.
Also for the protocol's sake, it's not a "state visit" but an "official" one.

Some people had not much scruples unrolling the red carpet to Yasser Arafat in the past, even as he was being called a terrorist (and not quite a repented one).
While Britain boycotted the latest Europe - Africa summit, most european leaders didn't mind sitting at a table with Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe.
(and of course, Yahoo unrepentedly selling free speech activists to the Chinese or Bush calling Kim Jong Il of North Korea "Dear Chairman" is peanuts, compared...)

I mean, at least, the Funky Colonel actually pretends to repent.

[Borry]

Let’s not be myopic. France hosted Cameroon’s dictator Paul Biya and nobody complained press or politicians because he has decided to limit his atrocities just to his people and not question what ever the western world is doing. However the press and politicians commenting about Gadaffi are just hypocrites and opportunists.

[Sigognac]

It is incredibly refreshing to hear somebody speak her mind, like Rama Yade did, don't you think?

[Emlyn]

My word, there are some virulent ladies on this thread: "drooling lapdog", "that miserable worm Sarkozy". A pity he doesn't introduce the stoning of women - that would give them something to get het up about!

[Thomas V.]

I'd say Rama Yade is right to do this from any human or ethics standards. But wrong to protest as a Secrétaire d'Etat.
She just shouldn't have accepted the sit when proposed, knowing what Sarko's policy would be.

After all, the "rapport décomplexé" [with no hang-ups] our dear President openly campaigned for, just means "selling our souls for more money".
Right, anyone could (should?) have guessed it. We just have what we deserve (what we voted for).

I was proud France, in spite of its many political/foreign affairs quagmires, was still holding a certain stance on human rights (such as in hostages deals, not to simply pay to get to hostage back - as Italy would do, for instance, which would just make hostage-taking a mere bizness, albeit a profit-making one.)
But hey, we're finally giving up this "national exception" -and in many things it has to be done, don't get me wrong- and becoming another simple greedy nation.

Unbelievable how much Sarko desires recognition; how much the French are willing to turn into a nation of nouveaux riches, whatever it takes; how much it seems normal to everyone.
Same old French longing for the first place we haven't held for centuries (and that was already for a terrible price!). Sarko's nothing new after all.
When will these small European nations get that new greatness -and perhaps even an ethical one- can only be achieved once they're united?

[john o'doe]

I would dearly like to hear Sarkozy's comments on the horrifying account by well-respected French TV journalist Memona Hinterman of how she narrowly escaped being raped by the Guide when she went to interview him in Tripoli 20 years ago and to the report that the Bulgarian nurses freed by Gaddafi as part of the deal with Sarkozy have cancelled a previously planned visit to Paris in protest against the red carpet treatment accorded to their torturing captor.

[Emlyn]

No-one seems to be considering the fact that in 2004, Gadaffi agreed to drop his nuclear weapons development programme and cease support to terrorists.

[azloon]

Valentin --

you're always seeming to excuse french behavior with a long list of "yeah, buts."

yeah, but -- the u.s. did this, britian did that, other europeans did so and so -- so, you seem to be saying, don't anyone dare comment on french coddling of gadaffi.

i can tell you that i seriously doubt if any other european country, or the u.s., no matter how conciliatory they were feeling toward libya, would allow gadaffi to pitch his goddam bedouin tent smack dab in the middle of their capital city. (belgium once did allow him to do this, but they are french-speaking, so it figures).

i hope france gets something big out of this -- other than the embarrassment of seeming to coddle a psycho murderer.

please, france, don't EVER again pass judgement on the u.s. 'cozying up' to unsavor types which we have a long and 'honorable' history of doing.

[Emlyn]

Economic sanctions have not been imposed on Libyia therefore there is no reason for not trading with the country. It is all very well to rant about "the evils of capitalism" and the immorality and inhumanity of the Right; the fact remains that France is heavily in debt and that anyone who claims not to be interested in the euro in his pocket is a hypocrite or a saint - though I would exclude the largely bourgeois Left from the latter category.

[Valentin]

Azloon,
Please, please make an effort and read my posts with a non-aggressive mind :)

My reply is composed of two parts:

one, where I show others did something alike too; for instance the US receiving Arafat or other dictators when it was convenient.
This part is meant to say:
"you shouldn't give others lessons on this topic!

the second part of my reply says:
contrary to other dictators in the world, Ghaddafi is, I think, the ONLY one repenting. Officially, there is NO complaint against him anymore. He changed direction 180 degrees: apologized for the terrorist acts, compensated the victims' families, liberated the bulgarians, totally gave up his nuclear program, without holding back.
World nations re-established normal relations with Lybia, who is no longer considered a terrorist state.
In this context, Sarkozy's move is just a step in the same direction: normalization of official relations.

Please read my posts carefully and drop sloganeering. OK? ciao
Valentin

[dot king]

Thomas V - from statistics reported today it would be more true to say that France fears more becoming a nation of Nouveaux Pauvres that one of Nouveaux Riches. (13h France Inter)
Emlyn, what kind of a lapdog is he then?
I would generally agree that nations who are excluded from "world approval" should be brought back into "the fold" as it were - I always favoured talks with the Northern Ireland Catholics because long long ago the Irish were handed their cause, for religious and political reasons that suited Henry V111.
I also thought that the world (or rather the WW2 allies) owed something to the Palestinians for taking away most of their land and giving it to the Jews who wanted to go to their Promised Land.
So I can understand why some nations, peoples, communities, with their voice, their state(s), all their other basic rights taken away from them, turn to terrorism - and please note I say I UNDERSTAND WHY, and this is absolutely not that I condone, support or encourage acts of terrorism.
But Gaddafi is different. I can't remember any "just cause" for the atrocities that are committed in his name. He's a dictator. He colludes in hostage taking, torture, and has funded terrorism. He is head of a rich country of poor largely uneducated people.
He is humiliating France.
Whether on an official or a state visit, the visiting Head of State usually has the programme worked out by the host state. Does not insist on this or that visit or meeting, nor refuse the host's accommodation.
He is pulling the strings here and all he's done so far to demonstrate his humanity is release some Bulgarian nurses and a Palestinian doctor who had been ludicrouly accused of an invented crime.
His visit is shameful for France and Sarkozy looks a fool.
Yesterday evening Rachida Dati was questioned (only lightly I thought) about this visit and she was visibly uncomfortable. And she's Sarkozy's right-hand woman so to speak.
Throughout his election campaign, human rights were amongst Sarkozy's priorities. So what happened?
Still the best thing since sliced baguettes is he?

[qwerty]

This may invite aggression, but I have to point out that:
1) Blair and others have visited Ghaddafi in Libya in the last few years in order to secure contracts at a time when the French were fussily not having a finger in that sticky pie
2) Ghaddafi paid a visit to the EU (headed by Prodi) in 2003 and nobody squawked.

I was shocked by the reception Sarko is giving G. (after congratulating Poutine "warmly") - he really has to overdo it all the time - but Hubert Védrine's reasonable, unexcited stance on Sarko's realpolitik on LCI yesterday showed a subtle analysis of international relations: what's important is what happens now. Basically, Ghadaffi is being manipulated more than he is manipulating. I'm wondering - does Sarkozy have a hidden agenda in this affair besides selling nuke plants and planes?

[John Gregory Flinn]

Well, DANIEL STROHL, I did'nt know that before, thankyou. I had in mind a vague allusion to him going to Siberia (for coal) next - he gets around so much.

JULIETTE - OK, I was'nt sure. But from what you say about her job canvassing, perhaps she might be misconstrued as an opportunist.

Interestingly, Gaddafi's nuclear contract appears to be for a Desalination project. Water is already becoming a scarce resource, and desalination therefore more important. However it is a heavy consumer of power and requires a concentrated resource.
Nuclear power is preferred to the heavy consumption of gas and oil currently used in the Gulf desalination projects.
What a dilemma for the oxymoronic 'greens'!

[Thomas]

Where did Blair go weeks before he "retired"?

[Valentin]

Sarkozy's answer to those speaking of humiliation, or "wiping the blood off his feet":

if you have a bunch of terrorist dictators, and one of them is repenting and is the only arab leader condamning 9/11, is it fair to treat them all the same?
It's making the difference between Ahmadinedjad and Ghaddafi: one is ostracized, the other welcomed.

[Sam Young]

I notice indeed that many of the bien-pensants (Koucher, BH Levy, etc/) are not happy with Ghaddafi's visit. This means that I am happy with Ghaddafi's visit. I hope he returns soon. And that Ahmadinedjad comes with him.

[Sam Young]

btw: Ghaddafi is next meeting with Zapatero in Spain and Prodi in Italy. As usual, the French lefties have their head up their a** which is why they speak such s***.

[Daniel Strohl]

Azloon,

(belgium once did allow him to do this, but they are french-speaking, so it figures).

Rob, the above is misplaced over-killing. In Belgium, there are three official languages : Dutch, French, German (plus various dialects). If one believes Wikipedia, there about 57 to 60 % Flemish speaking Belgians, 40 to 43 % French speaking Belgians, and about 75.000 German speaking Belgians. The total population is about 10 millions.

As stated above, Dutch is the official language of the Flemish who speak several related dialects. Many Flemish are reluctant to speak French, unless they are forced to – for instance for business reasons (they are hard working and very business oriented). May be if Gaddafi wants to establish his tent and his smala in Antwerpen, he will be welcome too (LOL). Who knows ?

[Terry]

I did say Sarko letting socialists into his government was a mistake. Some of you disagreed with me and said it was a great idea. This is the consquences. They think they are entitled to snipe at Sarko even they are a part of his administration. Time to send them packing.

[Tom S]

The Americans do torture don't they? Can't imagine there would be quite the same level of moralising if it were Bush coming to town, although there would definitely be some.

But it's the shape of the modern nation, no? A jolly circus. Do business with everyone, have a few firebrands in the administration yelling about human rights, which gives everyone kind of a feel good factor about the state of the nation's moral fibre - Shami Chakrabarti does much the same job in the UK. Similarities between her and Yade? Young, pretty, ethnic minority background.

Further forward, I think Sarko's Mediterranean view is interesting both for trade and because it provides a way of rebuilding a Mostar-like cultural bridge that so obviously exists between Europe and much of the Middle East but that is currently in ruins as a result of our current obsession with "the Muslims".

Equally, being welcomed into the international fold perhaps offers a way for people like Ghaddafi to normalise their own countries rather than the other way around. Perhaps he can loosen up at home if it's all swimming nicely internationally. If he's isolated, he's likely to entrench at home. So it may be a mistake (in addition to being shockingly and imperialistically arrogant) to order these A-rabs to clean up their backyards before they can be allowed on European soil.

I would oppose a Mugabe visit to London - but I don't have the impression Ghaddafi is the same kind of beast. Maybe I just don't know enough about Libya...

[Maggie G]

I agree with Tom (and Valentin). I was just going to write, just how bad IS Ghaddafi? Just where in the rankings of dictators does he stand?

Just how bad is life in Libya? How does it compare to life in Cuba? In North Korea? In Saddam-era Iraq? In China during the cultural revolution? In Ukraine during collectivization under Stalin? In Zimbabwe?

Maybe I just don't know enough about Libya, but I have the impression that he isn't that evil. Maybe I was influenced a few years ago on reading a book review about a collection of short stories written by Khaddafi that was considered surprisingly good. I thought, can a guy who is a bit of a poet inside be that terrible? Or maybe it was because we were living in Madagascar at the time of the Lockerbie explosion, where we didn't follow the news very much, so I missed that defining Khaddafi moment.

But I think, as Valentin pointed out, that a dictator who has actually changed his behaviour in response to international pressure is a rare specimen, unique in today's world, and maybe even quite an intelligent guy.

In my opinion, there is no way he has done as much harm as Mugabee. Mugabee hasn't been involved in international terrorism, but he has destroyed his country and reduced his people to walking skeletons. He has created a country where even pregnant women are routinely clubbed.

And if Ghaddafi is still living in a tent, at least he hasn't spent billions constructing the typical presidential palace, or the world's biggest cathedral, bigger even than St Peter's, like what's his name (Humphrey B) constructed in the jungle in Ivory Coast. Very likely he has a bank account in Switzerland, but where does he stand in the ranking of dictators known for their conspicious consumption? How many wives does he have, and do they each have their own palace and luxury car like that king in ....?

Just how bad IS life in Libya?

By the way, concerning the question of whether or not Sarkozy spoke to "the leader" about human rights, this morning Nicholas Canteloup had Sarkozy suddenly realize that he had thought he was talking to Khaddafi in his flowing robes by the window, when he was in fact talking to the curtains.

He (Sarkozy) also told Julie that the next thing he is going to sell to Khaddifi (since his clothes seems to be created by just draping material straight off the roll) will be a big order of sewing machines.

[azloon]

Daniel

i knew i was being snide in my comments about belgium, and know that french is not the predominant language of brussels. but i was struck by the fact that the only other european country to give 'safe haven' to ghaddafi's beduoin entourage has a significant cultural attachment to france. a coincidence?

you're being reasonable, as usual, while i indulge in inflammatory rhetoric, as i am wont to do.

:)

[John Gregory Flinn]

"I did say Sarko letting socialists into his government was a mistake".

I tend to agree with you TERRY.
However it was suggested, somewhere, that it would divide the PS, and there seems to be some truth in this. Judging from today's report in 'Le Figaro' they have become just a little desperate. Because M.Hollande is seeking to include the PC, the greens and other leftist extremes in his big tent!
In a 'grande parti de toute la gauche' to compete with the UMP.

The left's critism of Gaddafi, and Sarko's daliance with him does smack of hypocrisy.
I mean, Gaddafi and Libya are supposed to be socialist, and of the same style as the French PS.
But of course the left are riding a new band-wagon these days, it's 'green' and concerned with 'human-rights'.

Perhaps Hollande sees some mileage in this course, they (the left) have exhausted their traditional policy thrust, and must adapt or die.

[azloon]

Maggie --

are we now rating degrees of evil?

by agreeing to pay reparations to lockerbie families did the mad colonel earn a "stay out of jail free" card?"

perhaps a reality tv show: "battle of the psycho barbarians," tonite featuring mugabee vs. ghaddafi !! get your tickets, now !!!

didn't hitler write poetry? or do watercolors, or some such thing?

i think jack the ripper liked dogs, or loved his mother. something like that.

you're too smart to get into this sort of evil relativism.

[Valentin]

We can speak of degrees of evil. I'll always put a fanatical dictator, inspired by a genocidal ideology like nazism, communism, fanatical islamism etc in a whole different class of evil.
There's a huge difference both in principle and in practice.

Secondly, the point was not that Ghaddafi would be less evil, but that he turned around, gave up his nuclear program, accepted international experts unconditionally, gave up asking for the destruction of Israel, publicly and consistently condemns terrorism of any kind for years now, and was, if I'm not wrong, the first muslim leader to side with the US and help against Al-Qaida.
Even now he's actively cooperating with anti terrorist efforts, it's why Lybia is no longer on the terrorist state list.

There's a clear and huge difference from Iran's Ahmadinedjad, let alone Hitler, or Mao. Should we treat him the same nonetheless? The UN, led by the US, UK and others, decided otherwise, years ago already.

[azloon]

ok, valentin, fine.

by all means, stop by the bedouin encampment and say 'thanks ghaddafi' for being such a great statesman. and be sure to sign the guest book.

he's your kind of guy.

ps the only reason ghaddafi appears to have dropped suport of muslim terrorists is because he senses a lethal threat to his own power.

france's actions will be judged in light of it's collaborative past, fairly or not.

get your oil deal, sell nuclear technology. great.

but don't let this deranged narcissist rub his past in your face right in the middle of paris.

france's bad.

[Valentin]

lol Az, US and Uk "collaborate" with the Colonel for years already.
I suppose China and India are more morally acceptable partners.

"right in the middle of paris"

Beduin tradition. We respect foreign cultures, WE ! :))

This just in: Sarkozy met his guest for the 3rd time today. Our president seems quite fascinated with the guy; even more than our lefties with Castro or Che. Arrrgh, these french...

[azloon]

[Beduin tradition. We respect foreign cultures, WE ! :))] Vee

...and i'm sure there are millions of algerians who would attest to this french respect.

yeah, we talk with this moron, but you'll NEVER, EVER see a bedouin encampment in downtown washington, d.c. or london, i guaran-goddam-tee you.

CB -- can we have some photos of this folly?

or perhaps, Valentin, when you're down there signing the guest book, you could snap a few.

make sure you don't go down there during the champagne reception for the young rioters.

[Julio]

How many billions did our little president squeezed out from this respectable host exactly ?

I can't wait to see how much Brown will get out of Mugabe.

Unless sarko makes his move(s) now.
NOW.

[Emlyn]

Azloon,
You're a pain ... give us a break!

[azloon]

EMLYN

read today's posting by CB.

you might want to rephrase your insult: "a truthful pain."

and if you think i was a pain before, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

[Valentin]

Sigh. Uncle Az, I'm no fan of Muammar al-Gaddafi. I merely said he turned his politics around and, given the day's dangers: Iran, Al-Qaida, this matters. Especially being the ONLY ONE repented dictator.

Why enter a France bashing rhetoric? I knew he's unpredictable and he can embarrass everybody. Maybe this was his pay for the bulgarians' liberation. I've no idea. Do I find the tent weird? I do, but not "humiliating". Maybe it's my Sarko penchant.
Does this mean we French lost our mind? No really. You remind me of Charles who, from a rear bumber, ended up speaking about France's Two Speed Justice, as if this was Zimbabwe.
Come on, guys, back to earth, please!

[QCD]

Robert Furlong, "french is not the predominant language of brussels".

False, French is the predominant language of Brussels. Much to the despair of the Flemish. Remember my remark about your sloppy thinking? This is a perfect instance of it. You think you know, but you don't know. The truth is more complicated.

You may now wish to review your response to Emlyn's criticism. And leave France alone until you understand it a little better.