The French name game

 

Tell me your first name and I'll tell you your age and social class. You can play this game in most countries, but it has become especially easy in France in recent decades. Meet a Kevin, for example, and you are talking to a teenager from a working class back-ground. He would have been born in the early 1990s when Kevin was the top first name given to French boys. Meet a Laure, and she will probably be around 30 with parents in the upper professional classes. Laure was the top girl's name in this group from 1970-80.

The widening social divide in the choice of French first names is familiar to anyone who lives in France. It is well set out in an exhaustive 450-page annual study called La Cote des Prénoms. This year's version, just produced by Joséphine Besnard, a polling expert and political scientist, makes the point that the "popular classes" have given up the old tradition of following the name fashions of higher-income groups. Instead, they have imported boys' names from US entertainment with a "Celtic-American" sound and from Italy:  Mathéo is this year's all-round top choice. Also in the top 10 are Enzo, Noah, Killian and Nathan.  For girls, the fashion is for exotic, romantic-sounding foreign names such as Clara, Maelys, Louane and Inès.

While the lower orders have been baptising little Dylans and Maevas, the bourgeoisie is recycling old French favourites. The last year's birth announcements in le Figaro -- a good measure for the upper middle class -- were topped by Alexandre, Louis, Paul, Arthur and Gabriel. For girls it was: Charlotte, Joséphine, Alice, Clémence and Margaux.

Besnard, whose book tracks the rise and fall of names, from "pioneer" to "out of date",  says that until the 1980s, the working classes followed the names made fashionable by the upper orders. "Then the flood of new American-Celtic names shook everything up. The upper classes, who are more conscious of the phenomenon of fashion, have not changed their habits. This polarisation of taste is deepening the social gap in France."

Eventually almost all names are recycled by fashion, says Besnard, even the ones that appear hopelessly ringard, or antique-sounding. She predicts a return before long of Marcel, a name that was hip in the early 20th century (think Proust) but has long sounded archaic. A "Marcel" came to mean the sleeveless under-shirt worn by truck-drivers and poor holiday-makers in the 1950s. René and Renée are also likely to return to grace after decades in oblivion. I have a friend -- a lawyer in his 50s -- who a few years ago changed his name from René to François because René gave the wrong signals to clients.

It's interesting to compare naming fashions among different countries. Besnard does that with lists of the current top French, US and British first names.

USA                 

                              Jacob
Emily                      Michael
Emma                     Joshua 
Madison                  Ethan
Sophia                    Mathew 
Isabella                   Daniel
Ava                        Christopher
Abigail                    Andrew
Olivia                     Anthony
Sarah                    William
Hannah

England and Wales

Olivia                    Jack
Grace                   Thomas   
Jessica                 Joshua
Ruby                     Oliver
Emily                    Harry
Sophie                  James
Chloe                    William
Lucy                     Samuel
Lily                       Daniel
Ellie                      Charlie

Most popular French names forecast by La Cote des Prénoms for 2008

Clara             Mathéo
Emma           Enzo
Louane          Mathis
Maelys          Noah
Chloé            Lucas
Sarah            Nolan
Lea               Killian
Jade              Raphael
Léna              Tom
Louna            Nathan

Comments

[eygh]

Nothing really comes to mind while reading those lists except that they are very judeo-christian names and the French list is a little bit more open to diversity (for the origin and originality of the names).

[aulerque]

Trés exact.
M.Bremner, you really know France and french people.
A father of Julie, Cécile and Etienne.

[The 3rd Column]

Parents from la haute bourgeoisie have always chosen old fashioned names and very few have strayed away from the practice, eg, Bérangère, Pierre, Guillaume, Stanislas, Ondine, Quentin, Diane, Philippine, Isabelle, Thibault, Philippe, Claire, and even Françoise, etc.

[Daisy]

Are the french Kevins anything like Harry Enright's Kevin the Teenager?

I knew there was other news in France! Well done Charles!

[azloon]

that's a great shot of the french kids. did you take it, CB?

it's not a photo of a beautiful, scantily clad young woman on a bike, but it's quite nice nonetheless.

aren't we due for a velib update soon?

it looks like five or six of the french girl's names are anglo-saxon names tho many of us wouldn't recognize them with a french pronunciation.
[I'd say that only Emma is Anglo-Saxon among those girl's names, Azloon. The others are mainly Latin/biblical names common among the rest of Europe and sometimes middle east (Sarah, Louna). No I didn't take the picture. It's generic French kids. CB]

[Sigognac]

I wonder if Cecilia will become more fashionable?

[elemjay]

My friends just had a baby and called her Marie-Ange. It sounds quite nice to me, but all our other French friends have said it's completely reactionary and really old fashioned. Who knew? The codes associated with names are clearly very nationally specific...

[Yes, Marie-Ange was a popular name for traditional middle and upper-class French that reached its peak in the 1940s. It has very distinct Catholic and old-fashioned tones. It's not listed any more in La Cote des Prénoms, but no doubt it'll come back. CB]

[Terry]

Generic french kids. Some prefer brand french kids.

The only thing that appears generically french might be the lute. (Is that what that is.) Otherwise, these kids could be from any western country.

About 10-15 years ago, all the U.S. names were "soap opera" names. Ashley, Brandon, Amanda, etc. It is interesting to see how that has changed.

Slowly but surely, Thierry will worm its way back into the mind of expecting French parents.

[Terry]

Charles:

"Tell me your first name and I'll tell you your age and social class."

Okay. Try "Dominique".

Rocket may have some ideas.
[The book says Dominique for a man went out of date in France in about 1990 and for a woman in 1980. Dominique (m) was fashionable around 1950 and Dominique (f) a couple of years earlier.CB]

[stephen Bull]

cant the mayor refuse a forename he does not like the look of anymore?
[No, they did away with that in 1993. There are still limits, as there are in other countries. They can refuse to register names that are obscene, racist or deemed likely to be damaging to the child etc. CB]

[Dot KING]

Emma is from Manuel, Manuella and Emmanuel, not terribly Anglo-Saxon looked at that way.

[Yes but... Besnard's book attributes the revival of Emma as a European fashion to the English in the 18th century, boosted by Jane Austin, whose novel was published in 1816. Flaubert's Emma Bovary came in 1857. It was adopted in Anglophile southwestern France and moved northwards. This stuff is fascinating, but I'd better stop. CB]

[Lilly]

I just misread 'Ruby' for 'Rugby'...

[Terry]

Charles:

"The book says Dominique for a man went out of date in France in about 1990 and for a woman in 1980. Dominique (m) was fashionable around 1950 and Dominique (f) a couple of years earlier.CB] "

Ah, but you didnt give us the social class. I can fill that in. My book says: "Dominique; a socialist teacher who hates all things anglo and capitalist". Interestingly, socialism also went out of date around 1990.

I know Dominique will read this as the good hearted fun, albeit at his expense, it is.

BTW: Be prepared for a thousand more names coming at you soon.

[azloon]

Lilly --

my granddaughter, age 3, is named Ruby. my daugher-in-law's parents were appalled when they first learned this, since in the u.s. this name has in the past been associated with country songs describing ...ummm, what shall i call it....how about "trailer trash."

kenny rogers song, "ruby, don't take your love to town" (if anyone in europe knows it) would be typical of this sentiment.

so, i am interested to see that Ruby makes england's top ten list.

in the u.s., she won't have to worry about having five other Rubys in her school classes.

I may call her Rugby as a term of endearment, thanks to you Lilly.

On another subject

"cant the mayor refuse a forename he does not like the look of anymore?
[No, they did away with that in 1993. There are still limits, as there are in other countries. They can refuse to register names that are obscene, racist or deemed likely to be damaging to the child etc. CB]"

you've got to be kidding me?? the mayor could refuse to register a name deemed by him/her as not suitable. until 1993. unfrigging believable. amazng what can be learned here.

Frank Zappa would not have been please with this law (moon unit). funny, that name just didn't catch on.

[Jorg Andersen]

How about your name, Charles ? It's French originally isn't it

[Ros]

Wonderful photo & very interesting subject - may this Blog go on for as long as the others!

[rocket]

Terry

"Tell me your first name and I'll tell you your age and social class."

Okay. Try "Dominique".

Rocket may have some ideas.

Yes I do as a matter of fact. Dominique by Soeur Sourire (The singing nun) which actually hit N° 1 in the US in the 60s I believe. It took the Beatles to knock them off the top spot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUzY-W2klT4

(On the above you have to let the video run for about a minute before getting to the song but please watch the whole thing)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_S699qfY0A

This one above is Dominique sung by puppets

[rocket]

Stephen

"cant the mayor refuse a forename he does not like the look of anymore?"

As per the Mayor of Paris shouldn't that read

" can't the mayor refuse a foreskin he doesn't like the look of anymore?"

This is going to be a fun post me thinks

[rocket]

American redneck names

http://www.redneckbabynames.com/female-baby-names/25-25/

[Dot KING]

When I was teaching in the UK we had a family where the children had been given names that were the title of a song, so there was a Maria and a Ruby Tuesday . . .

[Dominique]

Terry,

For you only, so you anderstand more where i come from and what my parents did have in mind when they called me Dominique :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Dominic

I am you will be delighted by these specific words :

""It is not by the display of power and pomp, cavalcades of retainers, and richly-houseled palfreys, or by gorgeous apparel, that the heretics win proselytes; it is by zealous preaching, by apostolic humility, by austerity, by seeming, it is true, but by seeming holiness. Zeal must be met by zeal, humility by humility, false sanctity by real sanctity, preaching falsehood by preaching truth."

"What part Dominic personally had in the proceedings of the Inquisition has been disputed for centuries. The historical sources from Dominic's own time period tell us nothing about his involvement in the Inquisition. This is all the more striking when we consider that several early Dominicans, including some of Dominic's first followers, did become inquisitors. "

Sounds like socialism doesn't it? Nothing new under the sky since centuries....You'd better watch my fellow socialists followers...because i teach them a lot...héhé

[Lilly]

"I may call her Rugby as a term of endearment, thanks to you Lilly." (Azloon)

Azloon, and I will always see a 3-year-old girl in the background, when those big guys will fight again over their oval ball. Don't tease your Ruby too much, though...

[Isobel]

"Cant the mayor refuse a forename he does not like the look of anymore?"
[No, they did away with that in 1993. There are still limits, as there are in other countries. They can refuse to register names that are obscene, racist or deemed likely to be damaging to the child etc. CB]"

So does this mean that French bloggers on this site having been entranced by Rocket's perceptive comments will be unable to name their child after him?

[rocket]

Dominique

"For you only, so you anderstand more where i come from and what my parents did have in mind when they called me Dominique"

Damn! and I thought you had conquered your problem with "anderstand"

Does Dominique mean "thorough" in French.

If you're leading the revolution. Stop the world I want to get off

[Lily]

Is opportunism fashionable?

[Sandrine]

"Damn! and I thought you had conquered your problem with "anderstand"

I was thinking the same thing, lol !!

[Daniel Strohl]

Isobel,

"So does this mean that French bloggers on this site having been entranced by Rocket's perceptive comments will be unable to name their child after him?"

This of course would be a pity; however, since I am already 72 years old, I am no more concerned ... (LOL)

Rocket, you see, I have now got the smiley thing - may be faster than Dominique with "anderstand" ...

[François B]

I used to teach a class with at least 6 Kevins in it. (There could have been an extra one, I can't remember..) That was exactly it. You knew beforehand what you were to expect.
I often had the opportunity to play this game: Kevin can you tell me where is Kevin?
He's with Kevin and Kevin, to see Kevin..
And on and on... (teaching can be such fun when you see the good points)
Never call your kids Kevin, it's a curse..they never manage to finish high school (well, not around here anyway..)

François ( Yes, I know what you may say to yourself...)

[Kyle]

This may not need to be mentioned, but - for an absolutely fascinating discussion of this, there's a chapter on names as related to income, education, and ethnicity in Freakonomics. It's concerned with American names, but you can see the same patterns with respect to income.

[Lily]

BTW: The generic French children on the photo are most probably 'en 6ème' because it is part of the curriculum to play the recorder in 6ème. Most children have the above recorders (from China, very resistant). - Please note the boy's (in the right) posture, considering the apparent weight of his 'cartable'. The two boys in the background appear to be hunchbacked while the one playing the tune has most probably left half his baggage at home. This would explain his excellent mood that is cheering up everybody. (lol)

[:terry]

I just cant anderstand why Dominique...wait...now he's got me doing it.

[Angelina]

Love your posts. My mom's name (who is Colombian and married a French man) is Clara Ines! (born in 1952). I see her two names are now supa dupa popular.
Mine in Angelina (born in 1982), I've never met another Angelina. Did Jolie make it more popular among the kids born five years ago?

[Pierre]

Charles, I apologise for spoiling a good blog (my wife's name is Bérengère...) but I've just read your article in the Times. Why lump carbon and nuclear together? C'est tout et son contraire! If - as it would appear - you are attracted to the green lobby (cue for boos from Terry), surely it makes sense to encourage any solution proven to reduce CO2? Or would like us all to go back to the stone age, as Attali was suggesting this morning to Elkabach?

What fuel do you use to power your plane, exactly?

[Pierre, I'm not enamoured of nuclear power. I visited the scene at Chernobyl one week after the disaster in 1986. Of course nuclear is clean in the carbon sense, but it has a lot of other dangers, not least what to do with waste that remaiins lethal for decades. My plane has a petrol engine equivalent to a medium-sized car. Yes it's a luxury but I don't drive much and live in an apartment so there's some balance. CB]

[john o'doe]

What the French don't get is that they're calling their kids Steeve, Bill, Tom and Jack without realising these are familiar diminutives.

[Jennifer]

Any info on the name Camille for a boy?

[According to the book Camille for a boy has not returned to popularity as it has done for girls since the early 1990s. In the 19th century most Camilles were boys. Now only five percent of them are. It comes from Latin Camillus and Camilla. The Camilli were children from good families who assisted at sacrifices. CB]

[John Styx]

A funny thing is the fact that a lot of French girls are named Nikita after Luc Besson's film, although 'Nikita' is a male name in Russian.

Concerning 'Kevin', some French school pals of mine were quite upset to learn during a linguistic exchange in Britain that 'Kevin' is a generic name in jokes for the village idiot. I understand it's basically the same name as Gauvain/Gawain (as in King Arthur's nephew). Which leads me to the fact that you don't see so much Arthurian names anymore in Britain.

[christopher muir]

I was under the impression that France was very strict about the naming of children and that there was a bureaucratic list that parents had to cinsult. Anyhow, all this information about names will prove useful to script writers with future box office takings foremost n mind.

[they did away with the strict rules on names in 1993, Christopher. Until then, you're right, first names could only come from a list of officially acceptable ones. CB]

[la brume]

to continue with "Tell me your first name and I'll tell you your age and social class", what about Elisabeth, which is quintessentially english and was given all the same to french girls who are now in their 40's and are not necessarily from higher classes?
[It says that Elisabeth had its heyday in France in the 1950s but it does not identify it as an English import. Popularity was only slightly influenced by the arrival of the British Queen. It spread throughout Europe in the middle ages, from Hebrew Elisheba, Besnard says. CB]

[la brume]

to Mr John Stinx, concerning Kevin, it was mainly a fashion because of US film star Kevin Costner whom french women were completly mad of. It has nothing to do with old english Arthurian legends which the French people are indifferent of.

[Ros]

Does anyone remember, when, in the UK, first names were presented as "christian" names (in official forms one had to fill up etc? Well, we have at least made some progress & France being a "laïc" country has never had this problem.

[Mads]

So where does Madeline come in this list of names? NOT Madeleine please note. By accident, my father left out the 'e' after the 'l' when naming me after his mother. What is music to my ears, is hearing my name pronounced correctly now that I live in France. The 'line' does not rhyme with - well - 'line' but with 'lean'. Only the French will do this. People who hear my name for the first time congratulate me on having such a pretty name! I have noticed that 'ine' on the end of a feminine name and pronounced 'een' is considered very pretty here in the Auvergne.

[the book says that Madeline is the English form of Madeleine and that it is cropping up from time to time in France now that Madeleine is beginning to make a comeback. Madeleine had its big day in 18th century France and became unfashionable in the 1940s, it says. CB]

[Terry]

CB:

I warned you. Now everyone is throwing names at you. Please tell me about:

Peter
Paul
Mary
Malcom
Clyde
Bertha
Sheldon
Maurice
Wilhemia
Clarence
Rahne
Renee
Michele
Bessie
Trudy
Pauline
Candy
Paullette
Brian
Audie
Murphy
Chip
Biff
Bo
Luke
Winston
Alva

Please dont forget the social class this time.

[Ha-ha, Terry. It was my fault for starting the post with those words, so I've tried to answer everyone. I don't think there are many French Sheldons, Clives or Biffs... Now I'm going back to my day job...CB]

[Terry]

Pierre:

"you are attracted to the green lobby (cue for boos from Terry),"

Quite right. Booooooooooooooo.

And Green is really Red.

[John Gregory Flinn]

What's happened to Mohammed then?
I'm sure I read, or heard that this christian name (oops - sorry for the oxymoron), was second to Jack in England and Wales!?
Perhaps it was Scotland...or just nasty BBC propaganda - I mean 'news'.

PIERRE put me onto your Sarko-'green revolution' article.
There's a lot there to go at, but your nuclear-sceptic credentials were not obvious...until you replied to P!
By the way, lead (in petrol etc), antimony (in printing etc) and other heavy metals 'remain' lethal for ever (.."waste that remaiins lethal for decades"...), but our exposure to them is generally managed well enough. So why should'nt it be for nuclear waste?

I wonder if super-Sarko knows that the electricity for the lights on the Eiffel Tower et alia, is generated from energy sources 91% free of carbon dioxide production.

[Dot KING]

The one who gave the name Kevin its idiotic connection I think was Kevin Turvey, a spotty youth created by Harry Enfield. Before the creation of this character there had been footballers called Kevin (though I can't bring any family names to mind) so it had been relatively heroic as a name up to then. I seem to associate the name with Irish origins (correct me, correct me, if I'm wrong - I only said "seem")! :)
I accept that it probably became fashionable in France par des associations plus hollywoodiennes, but it had already become "unfortunate" as a first name in England.
The French may not associate Kevin with Sir Gawain, but "Kamélot" is certainly a very popular TV send-up of the tales of Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. Lancelot is a popular name for dogs BTW.
Madeline, "Line" is a first name in France and is well-known because Line was a little girl in early reading books. There is also the actress, Line Renaud - a lady of a certain age, so perhaps "Line" is due to come around again in the name pop charts.

[John Styx]

To la brume: Chrétien de Troyes, a prominent author of the Matter of Britain, was French. So was Béroul. The Welsh Romances are, well, Welsh; Wolfram von Eschenbach is German. Arthurian literature is far from being solely English, actually.

Granted, there never were many Lancelots or Percevals in France, but Tristan and Arthur are popular names. I believe the young Mr de Villepin was christened Arthur. Isn't Jennifer, a common name in France, a Cornish form of Guinevere?

[azloon]

Dot --

you're so well read, it's scary.

[Dominique]

All teachers will confirm : Kevin has very little chance to make it to Polytechnique (or to Harvard). As already mentionned, this is a real curse.

So now, the problem is : should we take more Kevins with "discrimination positive", or should parents stop calling their child Kevin in order to give them a chance?

The one who has the answer to this €1Billion question will have the answer for all social issues that France is facing!

We can play this game with Kevin and with all other "caractéristique discriminante" such as language, behavior, the way you dress, religious ideology, food, writing Anderstand instead of Understand, politness, etc... Only with skin color we can't.

Even Terry can play!

By the way, i wonder if french boys called Terry could make it in France....sounds very "Kevin" to me..

Please also note that this "Kevin" issue is absolutly interesting and vital to our society. You can push it with JASON. For those of you who are familiar with the international phonetic système (approximate as it is a nightmare and my keyboard doesn't allow it)

If JASON is told by parents with french accent: ʒazõ : very old fashion french prénom. No problem. Very much Neuilly style (Sarko's suburb).

If JASON is told by parents with "english" accent : dʒèzon' : little chance to make it. Sounds very Kevin. Very much Santa Barbara style (the TV soap).

Some will say that France doesn't like "foreign" things, Some will say that parents make no project for their children other than watching TV...

One more thing : chinese children often make it very well at school. They all have very french prénoms. Often the most classical ones, from the calendar.

By the way, did you notice Sarko's son's prénom? Louis. If that's not classical, i wonder what is... Louis XIX? Sarko, son of greek and hungarian immigrant, chooses a french sounding prénom. I am sure there is also something to dig on this side...

[Dominique]

I am an absolute fan of Kamelot, the TV program from M6 at 20h35!

So brilliant and funny!

[Lily]

Dominique,

your post is very funny and interesting! - I have been thinking for a while that the problem with these English names also lies in their French pronounciation. I'm always in for a surprise when I see them spelled out. Kevin is easy but Jason would be harder for me.

I think Terry with the French pronounciation would be too terri-ble. It's too close to Thierry anyway, and there might very well be as many Thierry's around as Marie's, n'est-ce pas?

Charles,

what does the book say about Julia, Juliette, Julie, Julien, Julian, Jules? (early 90s: peak??) - There must be few names with such a large 'family' and belonging to what social class?

Somehow, I have n e v e r associated a name with a social class, although its very obvious.

This blog is so instructive!

[azloon]

CB:

how about robert -- almost sounds like it was originally french -- rohbear en francais, or robe as my mexican friends call me.

Charles, i suggest you ask for a temporary leave of absence (paid of course) to deal with this tidal wave you've unleashed.

[Robert comes from mediaeval German hrod (glory) and berht (brilliant). It became popular in France and elsewhere in Europe and USA in the 19th century and reached a peak in the 1920s. It's now so unusual for a baby that it's "eccentric" according to the book. And I'm taking next week off. CB]

[Hannah]

Having spent a year teaching in France, one of the most common names I came across was 'Rayanne' / 'Ryan' (m)

The former form I think is a transliteration of a Maghrebian name, but it was made all the more frequent by the fact that a number of the kids who were not of Maghrebian origin were called the latter form, the American 'Ryan'.

I wonder if there are any other names that have kind of merged into one like Rayanne/Ryan to cross cultural boundaries?

[Dot KING]

Azloon - fais gaffe!! :)

[Lily]

"And I'm taking next week off." (CB)

Now, we need to find a new 'focal point' who will buy the book:

http://www.amazon.fr/cote-pr%C3%A9noms-en-2008/dp/2749907551/ref=sr_1_1/402-7742638-7800927?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193137581&sr=1-1

Volunteers? Anyone?

[Scarlett]

Tres interessant Monsieur Bremner. Que faire cependant quand on s'appelle Scarlett et qu'on n'appartient pas aux lower orders? Faut il changer son prenom en Charlotte, Arlette? Please advise.

[Désolé, Scarlett, les classes populaires n'ont pas encore découvert Autant en emporte le vent donc votre prénom ne figure pas sur la liste. Pourquoi pas Arlette? Il était dans le vent dans les années 30, à la meme époque qu'O'hara. CB]

[azloon]

german and 'eccentric,' hmmm.....

could it be worse than that?

(with apolgies to Monika -- where are you, incidentally?)

appropos my reaction, CB, i know a 100 year old woman with alzheimers who was given a birthday party on her centennial. she asked her niece how old she was and was told she was 100..

"i am sorry i asked" Mabel said.

BTW, how about Mabel? just kidding.

------------------------

which reminds me of a joke (the above story is true): a 95-year-old couple goes in for marital counselling and tells the therapist they want to divorce. "why would you want to do that at your ages, after all these years,? he asks.

"we wanted to wait until the children were dead," they replied.

[rocket]

CB

Since 93 wasn't their some problems with a family who wanted to name their daughter Megan or something to do with a Renault car???

How did that turn out? Do you remember?

[Samantha]

Something important to observe- many children in France are named after their saint's day- I have noticed this with several of my children's classmates (12-14 year age group).

By the way, the picture is clearly of generic French children, aside from the telling evidence of the recorder and huge 'cartable'- it's the clothing, at least the state of it. French children are almost never untidy or dirty and have neat (or at least,neatly toussled!) hair. In other countries, this would be an advert for some line of clothing, trying to depict delightful children, whereas the reality could be quite different. However, French school children actually look like this! And with those wonderful walls in the picture which must be several hundreds of years old. Only France succeeds so well in mixing the old with new. On the negative side, though, the graffiti is also a characteristic reflection of the country's social ills.

[Marguerite.]

Il est interessant votre blog.
Jaimerais bien savoir si les prenoms les plus en vogue, chaque annee, sont choisis prce que c'est celui que porte un heros de feuilleton televise, par exemple.
Apres la guerre, dans les annees 42 a 50 il y a eu enormement de Philipe. A cause du Marechal Petain...

[Lily]

"german and 'eccentric,' hmmm.....

could it be worse than that?" (Azloon on 'Robert')

Azloon,

It can only be better! The "Petit Robert" offers another defintion. There appears to be an expression that explains the meaning: "J'aurais pu tomber plus mal. Tu verrais ses roberts: aux pommes." (Sartre)

Can you imagine??

One Robert = Azloon, two Roberts = ??

[John Styx]

To Rocket: IRC, a French public prosecutor appealed against the naming of a young Mégane Renaud to the judge of family affairs, on the ground that the first name/name combination was detrimental to the child. The Mégane is a family car produced by French manufacturer Renault. The child was 6 months or so when the appeal was formed. The court held that the parents had chosen the name in good faith and that is was valid.

[azloon]

Lilly --

i guess 'glory' and 'brilliant' aren't too bad, though neither word would likely spring to mind in most people who know me.

Please translate the sarte quote for me: something about potatoes??

one potato, two potatoes, three potatoes, four, five potatoes, six potatoes, seven potatoes more.......

i am more than one potato?? there are two of me? (i have known that for years).

that's thrilling.

[Lily]

Azloon,

if the "potatoes" are healthy there should be two for each woman!

Enjoy!

[Daniel Strohl]

Lilly,

"J'aurais pu tomber plus mal. Tu verrais ses roberts: aux pommes." (Sartre)."

I didn't know that Sartre had so much humour! But I am afraid that OUR Robert, even if he makes substantial progress in French, is not yet able to get all the above subtleties ...

[Lily]

Azloon,

for the translation: "I could have fallen worse. You saw her roberts: like apples." (not sure about the 'like')

[azloon]

so your going to leave me hanging??

or are 'les pommes' hanging??

i hope not too much. i like "perky' breasts.

[rocket]

Thanks John for helping me out on that.

[Dot KING]

Quite the least attractive name I've come across lately is Faustine. The suffix "ine" tends to suggest it's a feminine diminutive - are there really blokes called Faust out there?
The Faustine most likely to be known by French bloggers is the one on VD (I know, it's tempting isn't it?) "Vivement Dimanche". A terrible example of typical French telly.
She's there to do a clever, amusing, obsequious piece on whoever the guest is. She generally gets one out of the three and it's never amusing or clever!
A few months ago, the guest was Charlotte Rampling and our poor Faustine decided to tackle her name.
She began by saying that Charlotte was far too ordinary a name for such a great actress and such a wonderful lady, that she should have been called something much more classy. She suggested Mary.
In English of course, Charlotte is a pretty name, fairly upmarket, a touch français, and totally worthy of Ms Rampling; whereas Mary is quite an ordinary name and probably regarded as old-fashioned.
So how the name is seen and sounds in the country you live in has a lot to do with how you choose a name.
My mother called me Dorothy, for reasons best known to herself. I've always thought of it as an old woman's name and am still waiting to grow into it.
When I came to France as an au pair, I began to hear my name pronounced in the French way, it became Dorothée, which is much prettier to the ear (mine anyway), but it was still a bit laughable at the time, no-one, but no-one was called Dorothée. Then, just in time, a fashion designer, called Dorothée Bis, arrived on the scene and suddenly it was all change. Later still a children's TV show had a presenter with the same name. Now it's relatively common, though rare enough to be unusual. la classe, quoi! :)
Where does the Sartre quotation come from please, Lilly?
Daniel, Sartre had lots of humour - "les Jeux sont Faits" par ex.

[Daniel Strohl]

Lilly, Azloon

I hate to have Azloon hanging ...

"Tu verrais" is grammatically incorrect - one should say : "Si tu voyais ses seins" ("roberts" in slang). It is a rather common grammar error, but of course Sartre made it intentionally.

"Aux pommes" means in slang : very good, fine - But there is also a word play - a lady may have breasts "en forme de pommes".

The sentence is very funny indeed, and full of hidden humour which I didn't expect from Sartre; but I never had the courage to read at least one of his books. My bad!

[Lily]

Daniel,

thank you for the explanation. I thought the quote rather needed some expert in transliteration... -

I tried my best... Thank you, Daniel. I read Sartre but the quote is from "Le Petit Robert".

My father's first name was Robert. He was proud of it but never learned of this meaning.

[azloon]

Daniel --

i still don't see how 'roberts' fits into this. but we've wasted enough time on all this. that my name is any way connected to female breasts is greatly comforting to me.

yes, your bad, no sarte. i read 'huit clos' in a european literature course (i majored in european history though there is little remaining evidence of this). it was unrelentingly depressing, which fit my 28-year-old view of the world perfectly.

:)

[isobel]

Couldn't agree more about Vivement Dimanche Dot - it's appalling.

[Dot KING]

azloon - I hope you read "Huis Clos" by Sartre, much better than Huit Clos by Sarte! :)

[Daniel Strohl]

Lilly,

You are welcome - if I have problems with a German word or expression, I know whom I may address for help. I like German very much; however, I have sometimes problems with declensions (there are also declensions in Alsatian, but the grammar is not really strict or codified; it is only a dialect).

Azloon,

Another quote (from Tartuffe, Molière)

"Cachez ce sein que je ne saurais voir" which could be written as "Cachez ce robert que je ne saurais voir" - Hide this breast that I should not (stand to) see.

In French, "un tartuffe" is an hypocrite and a false devout.

But I let you alone now -

[Lily]

Daniel, Azloon,

to finish this... 'roberts' was the brand name of a baby bottle at the end of the 19th century.

[azloon]

Lily

thx so much for finally 'finishing off' this incredibly long series of posts on le tres important sujet de 'roberts.' finalment, je comprend, sort of.

Daniel -- i knew you'd catch the missing 'r' which i too noticed but was to lazy to include in a second post. anyway, it fits my phoenetic style of spelling (tho, thoro, sarte). btw, i also read 'being and nothingness." all i can remember is a photo on the book jacket of an abject sartre standing on a paris street in winter with those wire rim eyeglasses, staring vacantly into the camera....very existentially, of course.

[Joelle]

Some years ago in the UK somebody actually ,set up a Kevin Protection Society, to defend the image of those who had been thus baptised because it had become synonymous with a whole batch of unattractive characteristics...

[Daniel Strohl]

Dot, Isobel

"Couldn't agree more about Vivement Dimanche Dot - it's appalling."

What I used to look at in Vivement Dimanche is the imitator Canteloup. He is really excellent. But he seems to have disappeared, at least from TF1. Fortunately, he is on Europe I every morning (saturday and sunday excluded) from 08h45 to 08h55.

[Pam]

I have friends in France who horrified both their French parents and their British friends alike, by choosing Gwladys for their unborn baby. Fortunately it turned out to be a boy!

[Dominique]

Pam,

"Fortunately it turned out to be a boy!"

Ouahh! poor boy called Gwladys

[Andrew]

In Paris this SUmmer, I was intrigued by a phenomenon of what might be described as "camouflage names."

I corresponded with several individuals with traditional French names.

When I engaged in a commercial transaction with them, and thus had to see their French government identity card, it was interesting to see that their legal names were ones that clearly marked them as being of North African heritage, although they were successfully "passing" as Franco-French.

Is such behaviour common, do you believe?

[Yes, Andrew, it's quite common. There is great discrimination against people with Arab or African-sounding names, so many Gallicise their given names. There have been recent test surveys showing that employers reject job applications with non-white sounding names while they accept identical CVs with French-sounding names. CB]

[Dominique]

Charles,

Sorry to say you don't know the issue well.

"non-white sounding names " : what is that? Most of black people in France have very "french sounding names" just like Black people in america have "american" sounding names.

"There is great discrimination against people with Arab or African-sounding names, so many Gallicise their given names" : This may have nothing to do with discrimination. Basques, Bretons, Alsacians, italians, polish, humgrians etc...all have gallicised their name. Even Sarko did. This goes also with the language. You just can't pronounce arab names in french unless they are gallicised, as you say.

This is not arab or african discrimination, this is the regular and universal process of integration in any country : face the language (here french) and deal with it. Same with prénoms sounding everyday more french.

You can see it both way : either it shows that France doesn't like foreigners (eventhough France's history prooves the opposite), or it shows that immigrants integrate more.

Make up your choice according to your own ideology.

[Come on, Dominique, don't be obtuse. You know well that my explanation is the standard one you will hear from anyone who pays moderate attention to this topic in their daily lives and through the media. If you're called Mohamed or Rachida, you don't get the same reaction as if you're called Dominique or Dominique. It's nothing to do with Bretons or Corsicans. CB]

[Daniel Strohl]

Charles,

"Come on, Dominique"

Yes, Charles, je suis de votre avis. It will probably take longer a time for people to get familiar with Mohamed or Rachida than it took with de Souza, Sanchez, or Padovani and their associated "prénoms".

[Dominique]

Charles,

I am sorry but i completly disagree with you. You explanation has maybe all to do with an anglo saxon society, but not here. France was made through it's language and the french language is clearly a strong part of France's identity since Henry IV (Edit de Villers-Cotterêts in 1539) who made the integration of France through the language. Therefore, since 1539, integration within the french society is made through the language. Names are therefore "francisés" more that gallicized, meaning transformed so we can pronouce them. And this was true much before arab or african immigration.

I am in first line in the classes when i see children's prénoms and names. The francisation of the names and prénoms usually goes with a strong desire to make it in France whatever it takes. Did you notice the prenoms of the Sarkozys?And if you start saying these people that they should stick to their arab or african sounding names, it's like telling them that you don't want them to become french. That would be racism. The very opposite of what is done in anglosaxon coutries i recognize.

Charles, all these discrimination and integration issues are to much often seen through anglo saxon eyes, but every society has it's own way of doing things. I believe that the reason why we have so many problems today is because we have forgotten this way of doing things in the last 20 years. This is also linked to postcolonialist guilt making some believe that being "francisé" is being colonized again.

On one point you're right Charles, is when you say "You know well that my explanation is the standard one you will hear from anyone who pays moderate attention to this topic in their daily lives and through the media"

That is the point : that is the standard explanation you hear from everyone. I expect more that the "standard simple explanation"!

[I won't labour the point Dominique, except to say I am not reporting this as an ignorant outsider as you suggest. My wife (now ex), who has a Muslim name, ran into this problem for years in Paris in her professional life as an architect. She found that doors opened as soon as she invented a French name for herself. CB]

[Dominique]

So we agree : integration goes through names in France. Sorry for labouring the point...i just can't help it

D.Strohl

Guess what? i foresee a sharp raise of the number of Rachida's in the months and years to come...Rachida is actually being "francisé" right now by R.Dati

[Daniel Strohl]

Dominique,

May be you are right, Dominique. Rachida sounds well in French -

[Bérengère & Pierre Bernardi]

Nous sommes heureux d'annoncer la naissance ce matin de Margaux, qui comble déjà ses parents de bonheur. La maman se porte bien!

[Congratulations, Pierre. It's good to have happy news posted here! CB]

[Lily]

Bérengère, Pierre,

FELICITATIONS !!

Bienvenue, Margaux.