Cécilia Sarkozy in her own words

For a woman who says she detests the limelight, Cécilia Sarkozy has done an admirable job for the past couple of days. First she posed for a Paris Match spread (last post) that splashed onto the news stands on the day her divorce was announced. Today, she has wrapped up the Elysée saga with a heart-to-heart in a provincial newspaper -- after the palace announced that she would say nothing.

Here are key extracts, or turn to the full version (in French) in L'Est Républicain. I'll make no comment, except to note that this week, with the president's personal life going so public, is something new and healthy for France.  A poll in today's Parisien shows that 92 percent of the public say the divorce will not alter their opinion of Sarko. Fifty percent believe that the break-up will have no serious effect on him, with 28 percent believing it will have a positive impact and 16 percent negative.

The Cécilia interview:

I feel that it's my duty to myself to explain why I no longer want to play the role -- if there is one -- of French First Lady. Also to explain the reasons why I asked for a divorce and why I want to withdraw from public life.

In 2005, I met someone and fell in love and left. Perhaps it was a bit rushed, given the media attention under which I was living at the time. I wanted to behave correctly and come back to try to rebuild something, to return the the principles to which I was accustomed....

For two years, I have not spoken. You should know that this public life does not suit me, the person I am deep inside. I am someone who likes the shade, peace of mind and calm. I had a husband who was a public figure...  When you marry a political figure private and public life become one. That was the start of the problems.

(Becoming president) is for him like a violinist who has been given a Stradivarius. He suddenly has the opportunity to exercise his art. It is not at all the same for me. I worked alongside him but I was not elected and didn't want to be. ...

What is happening to me happens to millions of people. One day, you no longer feel at home in the couple. The couple is no longer the essential thing in your life. It doesn't work any more... The reasons are inexplicable...

Since we had a certain number of principles, we tried to rebuild things, to put the family first... We tried everything, I tried everything. It simply was no longer possible."

The crisis did not suddenly materialise. I came home a year ago. For a year I tried to become involved professionally, personally, but it didn't go well every day. During the G8 (summit) I preferred to leave because my place was no longer there. If I didn't go and vote (for her husband), it's because I didn't feel good, it wasn't the moment to appear in public...

One of the perversions of my position is this obligation to explain that I need to live in peace, in hiding. ... There is no enigma or mystery. There is just a couple going through a crisis, who tried to overcome it and didn't succeed.

I am going to turn the page and above all, I am going to try to live discreetly and in the shade as I like.

On her Libyan trip to bring back the Bulgarian nurses.

I felt that I could do it even if the situation was blocked. I said to Claude Guéant (chief of staff): 'I'm coming with you.' He was quite surprised and talked to the President who said 'Let's go for it. Take her with you'....

For the moment I have no plans. I want to do a lot of things and I feel that I have the possibility of helping others. That has always been in my nature...

I was proud (when Nicolas won the election) because it was the labour of a whole lifetime. It means self abnegation, a lot of sacrifice to get there. I think he is part of that class of men who places his career and life in the service of the State without expecting anything in return.

I think he is a statesman. I think that France deserves him and he deserves France. I was proud and happy for him.

I always tried to be his watchdog because I have an outsider's point of view and I always kept a life a little outside politics. ... But everything that involves appointments and decisions, I am not in the room. I never wanted to interfere in anything.

There are moments when destiny turns hard against you... There are considerable upheavals in my life at the moment. Rather than letting them overtake me, I try to manage them. I am an unconditional positivist. ... I am going to focus on my family. I do not want to live in my past. I don't like living in ruins. The page turns. It's very difficult and that's normal, given the context and the stakes but I never regret my decisions.

Comments

[Daniel Strohl]

At least, the former Mrs. Sarkozy does not try to "enfoncer" Mr. Sarkozy, as it is often the case in analog situations.

[John Gregory Flinn]

This is getting boring - Terry's comment(.."For Sale" sign on herself..) on the previous blog is most apposite.

Mr Bremner, can I ask what's happening about a referendum on the 'New Treaty for a European Constitution'?
I have'nt noticed any pressure for one in the French media, there was some in Holland but it came to nothing.
Has the 'Non' been forgotten, or was it just a poke in the eye for Jacques after all?

[Yes, John, it is getting a bit boring. I'll lay off the Sark-opera for a while. You're right, no-one is bothered about the new treaty or a referendum in France. Sarko has done a good job selling the mini-treaty as a simple adjustment. CB]

[christopher muir]

She'll no doubt continue to shelter in the shade of Paris Match cover stories. Her version of recent events is a bit hard to swallow. I found today's description in Le Monde of a once almost demented Sarko chasing Cecilia to the airport - with car siren blaring - far more interesting and plausible than her scripted PR spin.

[Di]

It's not a soap opera, it's a French thing. Being sexually incontinent (for men of course) when in power is being patriotic and part of the mystique. Women should be pretty, appealing, quiet and make their men look good. It's a Catholic and cultural atavism. You always have to rub men "dans le sens du poil" to get what you want. An ex-Courtisane ends up as US Ambassador. A femme bafoué is stuck with a permanent pissed off expression, while saddled with "a better life" and a missionary zeal for good causes. We are used to that. Meanwhile, Sarkosi's wife, soon to be ex, is off to spend his money, as it should be.She might even make some her own.

What is really scary is the stranglehold of a few press barons on the press and the TV, who are at the beck and call of Sarkosi and who even photoshop his love handles.You know your country is doing really bad when Les Guinols and Le Canard enchaîné are giving you straight news while doing satire and straight news are willingly giving you satire. We are frogs who don't feel the water slowly heating up.

[Rick]

Here are a few questions that you may be able to answer.
What happened to the minimum service during the transport strike?
Of those railwaymen who were on strike, what proportion were signed-up members of a trade union?
Where did the CGT get the money to pay for the sartorial (and other)"goodies" so much in evidence during yesterday's Paris demo?
Is there a conspiracy of silence in the French media as far as the number of people happy to have taken yesterday off work?
And lastly, the French public seems inhibited fro giving vent to the annoyance they must undoubtedly have felt. Why was this?
I would be fascinated to know what you (or other) bloggers think. Thanks.

[azloon]

Rick: on another blog string, i have also wondered about the absence of public outrage at the strike, in the midst of the sarko/ceci saga.

is this some sort of nationwide gallic shrug?

france is a fascinating place right now, with many cross-currents in a new political climate, and a presidential divorce thrown in laughs.

the second most emailed story in today's new york times is a piece about "the american" in sarko's cabinet, and her take on the french mentality after her 20+ years as a high flyer in a chicago law firm.

she COMPLETELY swallowed her american experience and is now trying to apply it to france's current problems. it seems improbable that she will succeed, but she acts an agent for all of us non-french who are watching developments in france. having her at the center of the french policy debate is sort of like having Terry invited to consult on french policy issues.

Dominique, the tsunami has been hatched, and its heading your way.

NYT link

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/opinion/18cohen.html?em&ex=1192939200&en=8df5c5563d988c19&ei=5087%0A

[rocket]

Rick

"What happened to the minimum service during the transport strike?"

Starts Jan 1 2008 but don't hold your breath. chuckle chuckle!

"Of those railwaymen who were on strike, what proportion were signed-up members of a trade union?"

No idea but only 8% unionized in France. The problem is they control the means of transportation so they can screw things up. Is this a great country of what? Plus they are communists so they are for a revolution of the Proletariat. (oh mon dieu qu'est ce que j'ai dit!!!)

"Where did the CGT get the money to pay for the sartorial (and other)"goodies" so much in evidence during yesterday's Paris demo?"

From the same people they F**ked over yesterday who couldn't get to work and have been F**king over for the past 50 years. It's called your tax Euros at work.

"Is there a conspiracy of silence in the French media as far as the number of people happy to have taken yesterday off work?"

Yes some medias more than other. For example I-télé only showed smiley people while LCI did have some dissenting voices. But that is a first too. As they say in france. "il ne faut pas affoler les français" Don't ruffle their feathers.

Media needs to take a bit more courage in reporting

"And lastly, the French public seems inhibited fro giving vent to the annoyance they must undoubtedly have felt. Why was this?"

Do you know what sheep are?

[Dominique]

Rocket,

I did not read Cecilia's interview, and am not planning to. I'm sure you said it all. She probably could make a book (or a movie) out of it called :

"The Unbearable Emptiness of Being Cécilia"

It would be a hit though! All french litterature for the last 10 years has been egocentric and self centered on Mr everybody boring own feelings about himself, written by Mr Everybody himself. Very much Cécilia style.

Cecilia is interesting only when serious people (like we) talk about her, not when boring people (like her) do!

Good writers could make a story like Sissi or Lady D on "she had it all, but prefered to leave power and the palace because they all were too mean to her". Good writers could, but she can't.

Dear foreign readers, please note that all this Cecilia story is completly built and media settled. She is not popular at all and the average french buddy just doesn't give a darn shxxx about her. Only journalists do.

When i see that 5 out of the 6 last post from Charles are about Cecila, i feel desperate.. More, when i read Charles' article on the times today with the title "Secret divorce for Nicolas Sarkozy as Cecilia poses for magazine", i really wonder what is secret about it? We can't spend a minute without all details about that divorce. We can't stand it any more!

Come on Charles, be a Times journalist! Stop transforming the Times into "Voici".

[Dot KING]

The poll that shows that 92% of the French will not change their opinion of Sarkozy as a consequence of his divorce is meaningless - I can think of few other questions concerning Sarkozy: to wit: "Will Sarkozy's divorce change your opinion of him?" that one could put to (say) myself and (say) Valentin and get the same answer!

[Dot KING]

Rocket, si vous n'aimez pas La France, vous la quittez - I think those were His Master's words weren't they?
Ah, no, you like France but not the French, isn't that it?
What a great reason for being here.

[Dominique]

Azloon,

I had read this article in the NYT about Lagarde. Not a single line in France. Why? because it is the very same ideas from the very same man (Roger Cohen) that we have been earing for years. His analysis are so politically oriented that they are almost unreadable.

I am affraid you should not take care of what he writes about France. He is usually wrong and obviously has no clue of what is happening. He reads everything with american software and american economic standards.

Regarding Lagarde, she is almost a junior minister and has no political weight. She was already in Chirac's government and was agreing with Chirac at that time. Her nomination just means that the true boss of the finance minister is either Fillon or Sarko himself. She is just here for doing what she is told, increase the number of woman in the government, and provide an "american touch" for our american friends like Roger Cohen. And this is exactly what she is doing. Pure spin for the beloved transatlantic friendship!

It is so true that she is not even in charge of modernizing her own minister, neither defining the industrial strategy of the country as all her predecessor were. No one even asks her anything about EADS and AIRBUS issues. Deals are now made by Sarko, just like when he was at Lagarde's post himself! She is actually writing a report on the "possible" merging of ANPE and ASSEDIC. Undoubtly important, but clearly not what she should be up to...writing reports...pfff!

[Dominique]

Rocket,

I took the metro today. Overcrowded and still disturbed by the strike. Did you? You seam to be able to make your own reporting!

Rick,

Medias usually show both : happy and unhappy people.

The minimum service? that was during the campaign...Sarko's blablabla. I remind you what we say in french : "les promesses n'engagent que ceux qui les écoutent".

More seriously, they are working at it...writing a law, discussing it, negociating it, going to the senat, waiting for next year, preparing the "décrets d'application", trying to define what the word "minimum" means, etc etc... see you back in 2012 for the next presidential election

[Little Big Horn]

Azloon,

Thanks for the NY Time's article.

According to his author, the lazy French People would now be in the good hands of this workaholic finance minister (future Sarkozy's favorite?) for the reason that 1. she is so proud to be fluent in English and 2. has been an executive in an American company for two decades.

If the NYT had reporters in France, maybe it should be informed that the lazy French People, who built a whole civilization before the invention of the printing, is neither fluent in English, nor a (American) company.

The worthy US press should also explain to his readers why a nation of "surrenders" has still not embraced the great American way of life, and why a lazy country, as big as, let say Texas, had the liberty to say no to the Bush administration.

I don't know if there's an English word for "pudeur", but I hope the American writers will find a way to express it.

Without any shame (pudeur?), Mrs Christine "the American" Lagarde told the French that a State that sells day after day "le fleuron de l'industrie européenne" as a super model of our financial times, was not aware of Lagarde-ère' cession. Who is gonna pay for the 900 millions missing, now in the pocket of Sarko's good friend? Other than the Lazys. Politics is not business, and the corrupted elites shouldn't fool too much time the People they "represent".

Especially the lazy ones.
("L'eau n'est jamais sans rien faire" Victor Hugo)

[Little Big Horn]

My mistake!

"Peuple, l'eau n'est jamais sans rien faire".

Victor Hugo

[rocket]

Dominique

"I took the metro today. Overcrowded and still disturbed by the strike. Did you? You seam to be able to make your own reporting!"

Took the bus N° 22 Etoile-Eglise d'Auteuil and return in the afternoon. Very crowded but no problem. Regular service. Had my mp3 so I was in my own little world. Yesterday I just stayed home so I didn't even have to deal with it.

[rocket]

Dot

"Ah, no, you like France but not the French, isn't that it?
What a great reason for being here"

I have no problem with the French. I don't like "connerie" whatever the country.

[azloon]

Dominique -- i was being a bit facetious in my post re largarde. tsunami? not likely. she having significant influence? a little maybe.

it is interesting that nytimes readers are so interested in her, though i believe they probably underestimate the barriers to the kind of reforms i am sure she sees as required to remake france into an american-style economy. it's always flattering to believe that your own ideas are superior to others,' and might actually move across the ocean in the form of an american-trained exectuive.

btw, it's interesting that university of chicago trained economists (milton friedman's devotees) were invited to russia to refashion the 'broken' soviet economy in the wake of its collapse. these people didn't do a very good job. they didn't really understand the peculiarities of the russian psychology, and how it would need to be approached. it's a little different here because the protagonist is french, but it sounds as though she became almost totally americanized over the past 20 years.

so you can probably feel comforted that you will be dealing with transit workers strikes for the rest of your life. :)

(as i am sure your realize, such strikes would be illegal in the u.s., and the ringleaders, if they defied court orders, would go to prison --'ol monsieur TEEBOH, of beatle hair fame, would have to get his hair cut if pulled the same shit here).

[rocket]

The only reason Bernard Thibault has long hair is because he has extremely protruding ears to the point of ridiculousness. Not his fault of course but could be the reason for the long hair and some feelings of inferiority which led him to become a communist rather than going for l'ENA

Type in his name and then do a google image search and you never see his ears. I guess no media has the courage to deal with this subject for fear of setting off a crippling strike and shutting down the country

[Ros]

DOMINIQUE has taken the words out of my mouth, saying "Come on Charles, be a Times journalist! Stop transforming the Times into "Voici". - Enough is as good as a feast!

[rocket]

Charles...you wrote in your Oct 7th blog on French victory over all Blacks

"I'd prefer to see the epic victory as an illustration of the old saying, Impossible n'est pas français."

That's exactly what it is... an "old saying".....exactly. It's old...and it's just a saying

Tomorrow the papers are going to go ballistic!

Le Figaro has already started on it's website headlines

http://tinyurl.com/344yx5

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

Paris Scratch. You scratch mine and I'll scratch yours.

[eygh]

Rocket,

If you can't stand "connerie" wherever it comes from, then it must be pretty hard for you to live with yourself !

The amount of stupidities you are writing about the French is quite amazing.

Or if we are to believe what you think about the French, have you become a Frenchman ?

[Richard]

"the President's personal life going so public is new and healthy for France".
Why? This is such a very Anglo-Saxon approach, in the pejorative sense. So long as his mistress is not accomodated and guarded at the tax-payers' expense, why is it of any interest? His personality and actions are, of course; not least his suggestion that Blair should be the first 'Permanent' President of the European Union!

[Dot KING]

Bernard Thibault does not have an "early Beatles" hairstyle - I met the Beatles when they were still "early" so I know a thing or two. It's more early Mick Jagger (or name your own) really, if we want to nit-pick (as'twere) :)

[John Gregory Flinn]

Mr Bremner, thanks for your reply. I liked 'The Times' leader on the referendum today.

On the subject of why the French people appear, more or less tolerant of this stike, perhaps we have to wait a bit. After all there is a constitutional right to strike.

It lasted some 3 weeks before and led to Alain Juppé's downfall.
Perhaps the public don't expect it to last 3 days this time.
Which might explain their patience.

[azloon]

reading the translation of ceci's newspaper interview/comments, i got the impression she is not overly bright, what one might expect from a former fashion model.

is my impression/stereotype correct, or does she make a better impression to those who can hear and understand her french words?

[azloon]

Di --

ouch. i think you've nailed it.

check in from time to time.

[azloon]

>in case french bloggers here get the idea that all americans are workaholic maniacs who can't take enough time to sit down to eat, i offer the following joke going around the u.s. web:

>So who's doing the work??
>
>
>
>The population of the USA is 300 million.
>
>160 million are retired.
>
>That leaves 140 million to do the work.
>
>There are 85 million in school.
>
>Which leaves 55 million to do the work.
>
>Of this there are 35 million employed by the federal government.
>
>Leaving 15 million to do the work.
>
>2.8 million are in the armed forces preoccupied with killing Osama
>Bin-Laden.
>
>Which leaves 12.2 million to do the work.
>
>Take from that total the 10.8 million people who work for state and city
>governments.
>
>And that leaves 1.4 million to do the work.
>
>At any given time there are 188, 000 people in hospitals.
>
>Leaving 1,212,000 to do the work.
>
>Now, there are 1,211,998 people in prisons.
>
>That leaves just two people to do the work.
>
>You and me.
>
>And there you are,
>
>sitting on your ass,
>
>at your computer, reading jokes.
>
>Nice. Real nice!
>

[rocket]

EYGH

"The amount of stupidities you are writing about the French is quite amazing."

Stupidities for you donc!

[Dot KING]

Azloon, we never really get to hear Cécilia speaking French, remember she's a woman who likes to be discrete, to stay in the background, a woman of the shadows etc as her recent disappearance from the front pages proves :) - and the translation is of course the journalist's translation of the journalist's transcribing and tidying up of whatever she said. She is said to have been a "former part-time model" which I take to mean "never done a decent day's work in her life" (ahem). She certainly (to my mind) doesn't fulfil the photogenic requirements to have been a successful model - "former top model" aren't the words used, "part-time model" can mean anything you like really.
We don't know whether she's an intelligent woman or not because someone else always speaks for her - her husband, Mme Balkany, this favoured journalist in a provincial newspaper.
So maybe adjust your stereotype slightly to allow for the "part-time" nature - maybe she has a part-time brain . . .

[Actu75]

"such strikes would be illegal in the US, and the ringleaders, if they defied court orders, would go to prison"
So what? Death penalty is often legal in the US, buying a rifle too. Sodomy was in some states illegal until 2003 and it's a close call for abortion.
I have no special sympathy for thursday strike, and also support a form of "service minimum". Yet I would apply a Sarko's quote on this matter, and prefer the risks of an excess of strike freedom to those of an excess of limitation.

[azloon]

ACTU75

the death penalty is an altogether different issue. if you need some kind of admission from me, there is, indeed, enough stupidity in the u.s. to last four lifetimes. i am not arguing our perfection.

i am taking issue with the idea of PUBLIC employees (whose employer is the public taxpayer, the people who ride their trains and busses) being able to strike whenever it occurs to them. in my mind, there is clearly an overriding security issue here, not to mention a calculable economic one.

if an enemy were contemplating an attack on france, it surely would be on a day that the public transportation employees were on strike.

on the other hand, if there was no intention of retaliating against such an attack, i guess this wouldn't be an issue (a little harsh, i realize).

does anyone ever calculate the economic cost of these strikes? does anyone in france care?

incidentally, would you mind if we delayed indefinitely our discussion on the relative merits of sodomy. i read this blog first thing in the morning, and somehow sodomy and oatmeal don't go together for me, but it's not a bad thing....... :)

[azloon]

Dot --

since you've probably been to the hairdresser recently :), i defer to you in the hair description department.

re ceci's brain. she has a certain vacant look on her face which suggests not quite "being there." agree she's not prime modelling material. come to think of it, i think i have heard of certain women-for-hire described as part-time models. well, she's certainly 'for hire' again (or "for sale" as Terry puts it).

[eygh]

South-Africa is Rugby World Champion. Congratulations to them.

It has been a beautiful world cup, a genuine popular success.

Over all, visiting rugby fans have been quite happy with French hospitality :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/rugbyworldcup/2007/10/post_26.html

[Sandrine]

Eygh,

I took a lot of pleasure reading your link... Thanks !!

[Valentin]

"does anyone ever calculate the economic cost of these strikes? does anyone in france care?"

They do, all is very precisely known. But unions always manage to stage themselves into "victims" of government oppressors who try to dismantle their "social rights" won by the working class with blood and sweat.
From a population of 60 million, 15 million are youngsters who are always radical left, 23 million women mostly leftwing and supporting the "poor victims of the savage capitalism", 5 million are state and local communities employees who support their mates, automatically, no matter the reasons and the means (like Sandrine). And of course, no one in these categories pays taxes (or very low), so they know the OTHERS will always pay for everything, or will be fired for not going to work.

Now if you make the calculation, you realize why strikes are popular in France.

Public Service?? Yeah right. Quel gros mot... Fonctionnaires are not there to "serve", but to ADMINISTER their subjects.

[peter kinsley www.peterkinsley.com]

An Englishman in a huge red wig said on TV this evening that he had paid £21,000 for 7 match tickets for his family at £3,000 (4,500 Euros) per ticket.
England lost to South Africa. I wonder if he cried....

[Benjamin D.]

Charles, I really love your blog (and I don't like them in general).

The whole Sarko presidency is fascinating. Please don't stop reporting about it. It is history in the making and I'd love to witness it.

Thanks,
Benjamin from NY

[azloon]

interressant re les francaises et le marriage:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2195923,00.html

[Actu75]

@Azloon
“if you need some kind of admission from me, there is, indeed, enough stupidity in the u.s. to last four lifetimes. i am not arguing our perfection”.
I do not precisely need it. But considering the level of unilateralist critics towards french specificities that often dominate the posts around here while, at least implicitely, taking the US or UK as a standard of comparison, then to put it in French “Ca va sans dire, mais ça va mieux en le disant…”
I fully acknowledge that death penalty, strike and sodomy are different issues. However the question of their legality or illegality reflects moral, ethics and political choices. Since your quote brought in the legal argument, I feel entitled to the comparison.
Would ennemies attack France during a national strike? You mean like the arab countries attacked Israël on kippour day? I do not clearly see the “overriding” issue of security you point out. I have not heard of troops movements across the Rhin, the Pyrénées, the Ardennes or the Alps recently. The recent English invasion (of rugby fans) was quite a peaceful one and even the strike and the defeat against South Africa did not prevent them to party in Paris. The main forms of threat nowadays would be technological, financial or terrorist-style attacks. I doubt they would be determined by a transportation strike. And they surely already had plenty of occasions to do so didn’t they?
So, strike being legal in France even for public servants, we are left with the economical cost. It is undeniable ,important and regularly mentioned and calculated (I have not still read the figures for the last one). But if the French collectively prefer the risk of that cost to the risk of making strike illegal, then we are left with one option: reforming trade union reprsentativity, and promoting true ” dialogue social” and conflicts’ prevention. As we say “il y a du pain sur la planche… »
Hope I did not ruin your breakfast.

[Daniel Strohl]

Charles,

This morning, I read on the front page of The Times the following title : "World Cup dream ends for England"

A few lines belove, one could read : "... tens of thousands of English rugby fans died a slow, drunken dead as France beat England 15 to 6."

France, really ? Beautiful example of an almost Freudian lapsus calami(teux) ...

Obviously, somebody else did also notice the error, since it had disappeared when I switched on my PC right now (15h00 GMT). The author of the error is probably already en route for St Helena ...

[azloon]

Daniel -- i noticed that error as well. journalists often have several drinks at dinner before heading back to work (i well remember). headline writers are particularly vulnerable to mistakes because they often haven't written the story themselves, and are only trying to 'fit' the headline to space available, and often don't read the story carefully.

ACTU75:

your response is articulate and explanatory. i think i am one of the more even-handed posters here vis a vis the relative strengths and weaknesses of the u.s. and france (at least as i view france from afar, and from some personal recall as well). i see the strike provisions of french law and custom as a weakness of your country. i don't believe there is anything about your morality or custom that prevents you from adopting a new policy on this issue.

the u.s. had simlar laws and customs in the past, but those have been modified considerably by new laws and court rulings that curtail the power of certain employees to strike. the "public interest" is an overriding factor in these limiting changes. i recommend that france consider the "public interest" as well. and i think you are now doing that from what i understand of the the "minimum service' proposals.

re: security

you may be right about the new nature of national security threat. i don't know, and neither do you. i do know that everyday on my navy ship, we held emergency drills to deal with a variety of potentially fatal problems -- fire, collision, et al. fortunately, none of those disasters occured on my ship though they did on many others. i was happy to conduct the drills in spite of the small percentage chance of having to use my disaster training.

EXAMPLE: the security chief of Morgan Stanley in the world trade center insisted that all employees participate in evacuation drills on a regular basis, ever since the bombing there in 1993. the employees hated it, laughed at it, ridiculed the security chief (who had fought in vietnam, iraq 1, was a mercenary in the congo, and was a personal fitness fanatic, often running 20 miles barefooted). he personally lead every single employee of his company out of the building alive (he insisted on immediate evacution while others stayed at their desks) but he died when he went back in to look for employees of other financial firms. Expecting the unexpected is not a bad approach to life.

and NOW WHAT EVERYONE HAS BEEN WAITING FOR: my view of france in general, since no one has asked :).

there are similarities between the position france is in today, economically, and the place the u.s. was in when reagan and thatcher came to power. the excesses of the '68 eruption in the u.s. and europe -- social welfare run amok, a government progam for every conceivable social ailment -- were being questioned. it has taken 25 years to unwind those excesses here, and in some cases, we have gone too far in the other direction -- away from social protection. france will undoubtedly move in the same initial direction, but in its own way, according to its own values and traditions. it's a tough process, and many people will feel hurt and betrayed in the process. but there is no way around this. "there are no free lunches," as we like to say here. (there actually are free lunches at homeless shelters in the u.s. but that's another topic for another time).

cheers

p.s. i am currently listening to "amandrai" by ali farka toure on my computer itunes program. he's awesome!! his french is certainly unusual, but i can't understand even 'french" french very well, so it's no big deal.

[eygh]

Azloon,

If you are interested in another economical point of view on the economical state of France please read :

http://www.eurotrib.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2007/9/10/9417/13559

As far as economical press in the Anglosphere is concerned (which is the worldwide reference), one has to wonder how much freedom and independence they really have from the (neo) conservative political and economical agendas.

[azloon]

EYGH

"there are lies, damn lies and then statistics (an english saying with which you probably are familiar)

so we can prove anything with statistics, can't we? the article is interesting, however. thanks for passing it on.

unequal distribution of wealth: yes, a problem in u.s., and will probably persist but perhaps become less pernicious with future, democratic changes in tax laws, much to chagrin of Terry and other rabid plutocrats (i used to be one myself when i was a stock trader).

in financial markets, we looked at what was happening to prices to determine what was the underlying truth, not what people were saying, or what what this number or that number supposedly proved.

here, i would say, look at the election of sarko as evidence that something is wrong and in need of fixing.

JMNSHO

(Just my not so humble opinion, Sandrine)

[Valentin]

"Anglosphere". I like that.

[Maeva Muller]

We can't forget that Sarkozy divorced his first wife and Cecilia divorced her husband so that they both could get married. Cecilia was a mistress but couldn't handle Sarko having other mistresses "dans les coulisses" when she became Mme. Sarkozy. What Sarko expected of Cecilia was a protocol wife, like Mme. Chirac (all the while Jacques was galavanting around "sans souci), it was sad that Cecilia had met with a destiny that she had given to another women, "mais c'est la vie, n'est-ce pas?" One of those mistresses is the Minister of Justice Rachida Dati, beautiful, intelligent and yes...married. I wouldn't be surprised if she became the new First Lady, that is, after she divorces her husband. Oh la la, Les Francais!!!

Today is: La Femme Francaise LIBRE!!

[Daniel Strohl]

Azloon,

You as a plutocrat - ok, this is good for the bank account of a retired (Az)loon - but rabid, no. You presumably have enough other weaknesses. As my fast minded wife puts it : "write the list of your qualities on paper - it will be much quicker than to write the list of your weaknesses".

[azloon]

Daniel --

sad but true, at least for awhile. during the dot.com boom, any broker/trader who could breathe was making boatloads of money. it was intoxicating. i admit, i partook of the elixir as this was a new experience for me -- making good money, that is.

now that i am out of that hyper-addictive environment, i can see things with a little more perspective (and am more relaxed).

i hope Terry gets a chance to make a ton of money as a reward for being such a staunch supporter of free and unfettered markets. :)

[:terry]

Azloon:

"unequal distribution of wealth: yes, a problem in u.s., and will probably persist but perhaps become less pernicious with future, democratic changes in tax laws, much to chagrin of Terry and other rabid plutocrats (i used to be one myself when i was a stock trader)."

The problem with this sentiment is that higher taxes doesnt mean anything more for the poor. It's not like the government takes the money and gives it to poor people to even the gap. Instead, additional tax revenues go to additional porkbarrel projects (i.e., friends of politicians) in return for campaign contributions to get themselves reelected.

Should everyone make the exact same amount of money, Azloon? Would that be a fair system? Slackers make as much as though who show initiative? Go live on a kibbutz and see how equal distribution is working out there.

[Actu75]

Azloon
I’m late but it definitely takes too much a long time to blog than I can afford.
Your post would finally « rouse » (is it correct for an argument?) more nuances than oppositions. I would not argue against public interests being the aim of politics nore contest that trying to expect the unexpected (all while bewaring of paranoia) is a reasonable approach of life.
I certainly understand that “there are no free lunches” and that we have a huge responsibility to make sure that the protection of our social system does not end by “Tuer la poule aux oeufs d’or” as we say here. I would however be very cautious with the comparison France 2000/2007 and the US before Reagan or the UK before Thatcher. There are certain similarities, but no analogy and It has been often used and much over or mis-used, becoming a kind of “lieu commun”. Example The Economist (a publication globally as balanced as the Pravda and as honest as News of The World) front page with Miss Maggie’s (not the regular contributor of this blog though) picture and the headline “What France needs”. (Looking at the state of public healthcare in the US and even UK or the results of the current American administration’s foreign policy I might think of the same title applied to them with a picture of either De Gaulle Mitterrand or Chirac).
The number of structural differences between periods and places is too long to mention. Much could be said too about the evaluation of these politics (to sum it up couldn’t their positive results have been secured with much less social damages?) and the inadequacy of their dogmatic application to places as different as Latin America or former USSR. The question here is : is France really more in need of economically liberal reforms than the US or the UK are in need improving their social agenda? Or is it a draw?
PS I did not listen to the last Ali Farka Toure’s album. But I absolutely agree that (west¢ral) “african french” is a tremendously rich, lively and poetical use of the language that should be highlighted in the promotion of “Francophonie”.

Terry
“The problem with this sentiment is that higher taxes doesnt mean anything more for the poor”.
Higher taxes do not always mean more for the poor, right. Trouble is lower taxes nearly always mean less. And more for the rich.
From “Should everyone make the exact same amount of money, Azloon?” to “Go live on a kibbutz…”
What an argument. I am as impressed. Just like with the Vichy (and others) propaganda’s picturing the communists with knives in the mouth. Or the equivalent from soviet propaganda against greedy capitalists. Let’s not try to improve anything in the unbalanced distribution of wealth. This bunch of lazy poor people will come and ask for all. You’re a bit like the french politics you’re mocking. Your (social) agenda seems to be “Il est urgent de ne rien faire”. Meanwhile the winner takes it all.

[Dot KING]

how did we get here from "cécilia sarkozy in her own words"?

[azloon]

Oh, come on Terry. your total cynicism about the power of taxation to redistribute wealth is annoying. you can raise marginal tax rates on higher incomes and lower them on lower incomes, and the result is more disposable for lower income individuals, and less for higher income individuals. presumably this is a sero sum transaction, with the government having no additional revenue to spend, in other words revenue neutral. the u.s. has played this game of wealth distribution since the tax system was introduced. sentiment is swinging back toward taxing the wealthy in a more aggressive way. the excessess of many company executives has disgusted the public, and so all wealthy individuals will be punished. so business has brought this on themselves. that's just how it goes. we're not talking about exactly equal distribution, just a minor adjustment to the distribution ratio. the rich will still be rich. don't worry.

[Liz]

"if an enemy were contemplating an attack on france, it surely would be on a day that the public transportation employees were on strike."

not entirely sure how this is right - how would train drivers etc. help in an attack? Anyway, if we're going on recent attacks, you're better of attacking the metro when the strikes are not on!!!

My experience of the strikes is that the French have just kinda shrugged their shoulders and said "well it's not as bad as '95" (4 weeks of transport strikes). None of my acquaintances are happy with the strike but most have just found it midly irritating especially as nowadays you can work from home with your laptop. Personally I was irritated but there's not much you can do about it!

[Terry]

ActU:

"Should everyone make the exact same amount of money, Azloon?” to “Go live on a kibbutz…”"

My point on this is that kibbutzim members who show initiative and do all the work have been leaving in droves because freeriders get the exact same benefits.

I am ok with kibbutzes even though they are communist. They are strictly voluntary.

[Terry]

Azloon:

First, you have to define for me who is rich. Well, you dont have to. But it would be helpful. I made 180K last year. I paid 70K in federal taxes. 20K in state taxes. 15k for social security because I am self employed. This does not count the sales tax of 7% of everything I buy and gas taxes. My rent is $25K. Government is sucking up all the money I earn. And it is not helping the poor. It goes to Bridges to Nowhere in Alaska and all of R. Byrd's stupid projects that he puts his name on.

[azloon]

DOT: how did we get here from "cécilia sarkozy in her own words"?

been to a cocktail party, recently?

[azloon]

ACTU75

the u.s. easily faces as many social challenges as france does economic ones. no argument from me.

but, sometimes, i get the feeling here, that if you come from a country with problems, you have no standing to make comments about france's problems.

isn't this a blog about france?

LIZ: Personally I was irritated but there's not much you can do about it! (the strike)

the gallic shrug of the shoulders?

i think this is part of the problem -- if indeed there is a problem which one might wonder by reading many of the posts here. i think sarko thinks there is a problem, and more than half the voters apparently do.

but i really wonder if the french have the will to make the changes needed, as i often wonder if the americans have the will to make required changes here.

i really do think that modern western politics are in a real funk right now with approval ratings for the american congress running around 10%.

[azloon]

ACTU75

the ali farka toure album was titled 'talking timbuktu' in the u.s. it is several years old.

[azloon]

Terry --

re the rich

not you, or me in my heyday either (i made about twice what you are making at the top of the dot.com bubble, and it didn't last long enough :)

i am talking about people making more than five million a year. such folks account for a very large percentage of total income.

the idea of the kibbutz and its philosphy/operation sounds truly dreadful. i am a red, white and blue capitalist. honest.

we just are a different places on the spectrum of belief in unfettered capitalism's ability to solve every problem.

[azloon]

ACTU75

"rouse"

in your context, i think you would want to use 'raise' instead.

my arguments might "rouse' you to respond, but my comments would "raise" more questions, or nuances, or whatever.

[Terry]

Azloon:

Unfortunately, I am considered the rich. There simply are not enough rich to cover government spending if you confiscated ALL their wealth.

[Dot KING]

Azloon, no, indeed, I've managed to avoid cocktail parties - and will continue thus
I can see how the conversation can take on the effect of "chinese whispers", - that's the most interesting aspect of the current postings (inmesho)
and now who's being picky about language? stealing my thunder :)

[Dot KING]

gawd! don't you ever get sick of discussing money? shheesh!

[Dot KING]

azloon, I wish to leave, be a dear and bring my wrap . . .

[Dominique]

To go back to the subject,

I a glad of Sarko's answer about his divorce. When answering to a God Damned Fxxxg stupid Vulgar $§%!!! journalist, he said :

“My state of mind is very simple,” he said. “I was elected by the French people to solve their problems and not to comment on my private life, and I would have thought a major newspaper like Le Monde would have a greater interest in Europe than in my private life. Perhaps I should be flattered.”

He then lashed back. “As far as my private life goes,” he said, “the French are less interested in it than you are and they are right and they are perhaps more discreet and elegant than you are, sir.”

Et PAF dans la binette des journalistes! Ils l'ont bien méritée celle la!

Too bad he did not say the same thing 2 years ago when he was using his own wife & kid for political purposes....

PS : Charles? Could he have said the same to a Times journalist? ;=))

[Lilly]

Azloon, Terry,

it's best to hear you talk. Your views may differ but you speak the same language.

Terry,

do you 'suffer' because you are considered 'the rich'?

[Dominique]

Terry,

" There simply are not enough rich to cover government spending if you confiscated ALL their wealth"

HA HA HA HA! HA HA HA HA!!

Thank god, we have the poor for covering government spendings! Always there, never complaining nor tax frauding! Always the first going to war etc...

This reminds me a famous word from the former sky champ' Marielle Goitschel who once claimed in the 80's at "droit de réponse":

"pourquoi serait-ce toujours les riches qui devraient payer pour les pauvres?" ("why should always the rich pay for the poor?")

The answer (i think from from Claude Chabrol) was as simple as the sun shines in Summer : "parceque l'inverse n'est pas possible" ("because the opposite is just not possible")

Terry, if you did not exist, life for sure would not be as funny as it is.

[Valentin]

"Too bad he did not say the same thing 2 years ago when he was using his own wife & kid for political purpose"

He showed off as a happy family, which was probably true at the time (in 2003-2004). He followed the example of other presidents and showed himself human, as he was, and not like a soviet-style apparatchik hiding his quiet housewife in a closet.

So it went wrong, and he decided to go private. But I mean, isn't it his life, and his family, isn't he free to display it when he likes, and to go private when he likes?
The French law protects the privacy IF people want it. If you want to be public, you can't sue journalists about it; but you can if you decide to go private again and they display your life against your will.
You're the master of your own life.

[Terry]

Lilly:

do you 'suffer' because you are considered 'the rich'?

Another loaded question. Yes. I do. The fact that nearly 55% of what I make goes to the government (over $100K) is money that I cant put toward purchasing a house. The confiscatory tax scheme prevents wealth accumulation so that families can buy homes, cars, etc. and put money aside for the kids college tuitions. If the government gave $1,000 bills of that $100K to 100 poor people, I might (MIGHT) feel better. But that's not what happens. New Jersey tax payers spent $425 million of taxpayer money to build a stadium in Newark, New Jersey all for the benefit of a hockey team. This is all while residents on Avon and Springfield Ave (site of the Newark riots) live in GOVERNMENT slum housing.

So, you can mock me if you want.
And you can wax about the poor might make you feel better about yourself. But dont kid yourself that government is really helping the poor. Was the French Opera house built for residents of the banlieus?

[azloon]

DOT:

i will bring your wrap, and extract your urine, if you wish.

:)

[azloon]

Terry --

isn't $100k a little high for an income of $175k?

[Valentin]

"Was the French Opera house built for residents of the banlieus"

That's true, but then again, should we have never built operas and theatres and the international space station?
There's a right balance about all this.

Anyway Terry, you made your point about government incapacities, but wouldn't the solution rather be to elect more competent and better intentioned people? I mean, to me it sounds an issue of democracy, not of political philosophy.

[azloon]

i thought i'd post, no doubt, a controversial piece-- something sent to me by a friend. it is bit inflamatory (unfortunate term) but it is intended to be. this is not necessarily my view, but it appeals to my prejudice. as i've said before in another, entirely trivial context, it's important to know who lives in our midst. ACTU75 -- please take note re our security discussion. (this may or not be an actual piece of journalism -- i can't confirm it's origin. i think the opinion, however, 'stands on it's own').

EUROPEAN LIFE DIED IN AUSCHWITZ

The following is a copy of an article written by Spanish writer Sebastian
Vilar Rodrigez and published in a Spanish newspaper on 5-22-07. It doesn't
take much imagination to extrapolate the message to the rest of Europe -
and possibly to the rest of the world.

=====================================================

"Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 14:30:20 -0500

ALL EUROPEAN LIFE DIED IN AUSCHWITZ
By Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez

I walked down the street in Barcelona, and suddenly discovered a terrible
truth - Europe died in Auschwitz. We killed six million Jews and replaced
them with 20 million Muslims. In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought,
creativity, talent. We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because
they produced great and wonderful people who changed the world.

The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science,
art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world.
These are the people we burned.

And under the pretense of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to
ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates
to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious
extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty, due to an
unwillingness to work and support their families with pride.
They have turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world,
drowning in filth and crime.

Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government, they plan
the murder and destruction of their naive hosts.

And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred,
creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and
superstition.

We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their
talent for hoping for a better future for their children, their determined
clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death, for
people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our
children and theirs.

What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe."

cheers

[:terry]

Azloon

isn't $100k a little high for an income of $175k?

THis is state and federal plus double social security since I am self emplyed.

[:terry]

Valentin:

That's true, but then again, should we have never built operas and theatres and the international space station?
There's a right balance about all this.

"Anyway Terry, you made your point about government incapacities, but wouldn't the solution rather be to elect more competent and better intentioned people? I mean, to me it sounds an issue of democracy, not of political philosophy."

Two good points by you. The government has no business building stadiums, theatres and operas. If there is market for these things, the private sector will build it. The space station is different. Space exploration is simply too expensive for the private sector.

As to better bureaucrats, France actually has a school to train them (unlike the US). But yours do not seem any better than ours. The downside to the democratic system is that it allows politcal influence to by purchased (and cheaply too). That will not change. THe answer is to give government as little money as possible. Do not feed the troll.

[Actu75]

Azloon
"i get the feeling here, that if you come from a country with problems, you have no standing to make comments about france's problems".

Of course not. (Or we wouldn't both be here would we?) However if the rethoric regularly leads to to (or comes from) a "do as we do" argument-nothing personal here-, it might then be reasonable to wonder if the medicine is not in some ways worse than the disease.

[DI]

Azloom,

Thanks.My mother, unmistakeably French, tells me that living with puritans has clouded my judgement. She might be right then. She understood why Hilary stayed put while Bill strayed, instead of burning holes in every item of his wardrobe with his favourite cigars and attending "constant humiliation at the hands of your man is bad for you" workshops. Yet, she admires Cecilia for leaving. We agree on one thing: a married man, who as an elected representative of the Republic, decided to steal another man's wife, on the day he was marrying them, lacks the moral core to be president.We don't have to follow the Anglo-Saxon model blindly to get out of the mess we are in.The invisible hand is a mirage.
The amount of beautiful women in the Sarkosi government is suspicious. Our presidents are more like our monarchs, whose libidinous tendencies kept the serfs entertained. As a typical over-sexed French President, he is bound to sleep with a few, for fun or just to keep them quiet when they become difficult. The ones deemed non-shaggable are kicked out with the worst insult a French woman can get: fat and ugly. Many French women live by the " il faut souffrir pour être elle" motto, as well as "no thanks, I am watching my weight" but equality is not something we are programmed for. At the end of the day, after work, taking care of the house, the husband, the children, being a perfect woman, running around for the new cellulite cream, sleeping with someone else's husband (if you don't mind), you are just to knackered for feminism.
Power is an aphrodisiac, there is a long list of women who will be happy to bed a control-freak midget with dodgy ethics. Watch the scrum to be his third wife, he is going to have a blast. Madeleine Albright said “there is a special place in hell for women who don’t help other women”, there is a another and it reeks of Chanel No.5. Meanwhile Sarkosi can do what ever he wants, hiding behind this novella-fluff. We need a Saint-Simon rather than a series of fanzines that call themselves " press". May 68 was a blip, it did not go far enough. Some are still mourning Marie-Antoinette's passing, a macaroon from Ladurée is just not enough.

DI

[azloon]

ACTU75

we're talking about one issue here: strike of public transit workers. that's a fairly narrow subject.

in some cases, 'do as we do' isn't bad advice. in others, it clearly isn't.

i suggest a little less super-sensitivity to posts of americans who are surprised/offended at what they observe in france.

i am sure if CB were writing about the u.s., the character of the french observatios would be similar. don't you think so?

we read, and hear about europe's criticism/ridicule of the u.s. in the media incessently. this is a chance for americans to give their views about Charles' comments about france. that's all. what we see, and think, is really not such a big deal. is it?

[Valentin]

Terry:
"The government has no business building stadiums, theatres and operas"

Not sure about this one. Think about the Louvre, the Statue of Liberty, the Sixtine Chapel... a lot has been built because there were tyrants powerful enough to impose it; if you leave it to parliaments or privateers, really *big* things would never get done.

As to bureaucrats, the French ones have less of a problem of competence, but rather one of self-importance, nomenklatura-like selfishness, or unions.

[Little Big Horn]

Azloon,

Mister Vilar Rodrigez's rhetoric is precisely the same as Hitler and Himmler's one in the 30s and 40s.

To write that:

"20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty, due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride"

.. should be liable for a prison sentence.

It is extremely dangerous, racist, stupid, ignorant, intolerant and... so ideologically/religiously biased.

For cultivated or educated people, the Muslims have brought as much lights and marvels to humanity than the Jews and the Christians have brought (mass) death, intolerance, obscurantism and nihilism. And for centuries.

This monotheism's race is a race to Death. This is, as Mister Vilar Rodrigez' "misery", pure resentment. Hate.

Europe was a Greek goddess, as a Phoenician princess. All European life didn't died in Auschwitz, only the shadow of God.

[azloon]

Little Big Horn

I don't disagree with your observations.

as i said, it's inflammatory, and i'll add bigoted and insanely angry.

but it does represent the view, at least portions of it, of many of the victims of modern muslim terrorism.

[Dot KING]

I agree that any journalist who writes an article in the terms of the one posted by Azloon, should be liable to a prison sentence - it is sadly the kind of hate-ridden propaganda that also circulates freely on the net. I received something similar not too long ago and I sent out a message to everyone it had been addressed to to the effect that " il faut être un vrai minable pour faire circuler de tels propos" and struck the person from my address book.
Why did you post it Azloon?

[Dot KING]

Just a word IN DEFENSE of the unions is what I'd like to post - then if you wish, I shall just go away ...
They aren't just about strikes and disruption of your making so much money that some of you are proud to label yourselves "rich", they have other rôles too.
In 2004 I was made redundant from my job as a bilingual secretary - the story is longer and harder than I'll tell it here, suffice it to say, I had to get out of there and fast.
I'm not a member of a union, and haven't been since I was in the NUT, Teachers' Union, in the UK.
I could have taken my boss to court for his behaviour, but I wanted the swine off my back once and for all.
A French friend told me that first and foremost I should contact one of the unions, no matter which, because they would see that my boss would "free" me under correct conditions.
So I was accompanied through a very difficult moment in my life in France, not to mention complex administrative procedures, by a local representative of the CGT. I had paid no union dues, never been a member of any union in France. The secretary who answered the phone when I first rang, not really having any faith in the démarche, said "Madame, que vous soyez membre ou pas de notre syndicat, une partie de notre rôle est de protéger les salariés et d'assurer que vous soyez licenciée dans les bonnes conditions". After the closed shop conditions in the UK, this was unexpected to say the least. Their services cost me nothing. I got the elusive "free lunch".
I know that on this blog, most contributors are concerned with making money for themselves and the rest of the world go hang as long as they don't get in their way, but some of us aren't in the "rich" league (and frankly if I were I'd be more discrete about it) and work in ordinary jobs. In a moment when I needed help and fair treatment, I got it thanks to help from that most unexpected quarter.

[Dot KING]

Azloon, OK you've answered the question in answering LBH just above my post. Like much of the stuff we can read on this blog, the article isn't particularly enriching. The amount of negativity and hate is depressing.

[Dot KING]

The terms of the article you posted Azloon, aren't expressed in terms of "muslim terrorists", but in terms of muslims - not the same thing - that's how propaganda works, miss out the odd word, tinker with the order, shift the emphasis, wash the brain, etc etc

[azloon]

why did i post it?

i indicated that it appealed to my predjudice, and also as a warning to ACU75 that his ideas of security threats to europe are naive.

it's typical that europeans would think of 'putting in jail" someone who says such things. being the humane societies you are, howerver, i suppose you wouldn't execute him. how long should he spend in jail?

we believe in free speech here, though that line is drawn at shouting fire in a crowded theatre. it is not drawn anywhere near, not even close, to the article i posted. just as you value the right to strike, we value the right to speak. different strokes for different folks.

i guess after murdering so many innocent civilians during WW2, europe has become frightened of certain forms of speech. we let speech be judged by the jury of public opinion.

do you think the muslim mullahs in london who are calling for armed insurrection against their western hosts should be put in jail? why aren't they there now, instead of shouting their hatred on CNN?

i personally believe they should NOT be in jail, thought their rhetoric certainly is abhorrent. but they should be watched carefully. imo.

[Terry]

Valentin:

"Not sure about this one. Think about the Louvre, the Statue of Liberty, the Sixtine Chapel... a lot has been built because there were tyrants powerful enough to impose it; if you leave it to parliaments or privateers, really *big* things would never get done."

Another good point. There are some government projects that may have uses that justify the cost. The thing you have to watch out for is the "monument builders". Since you want to talk about Ayn Rand (which i always love doing), she has a chapter on this. Let's talk about the Sistine Chapel, which I have been to. Very beautiful. But how many poor people were tithed to pay for it? Do you think those who paid for it ever got to worship there. I have been to the pyramids. An awesome sight. But how many people died and how many resources were expended to make a large tomb that has no utilitary purpose? Perhaps, roads would have been more useful. Rand would say that there are always political elements that want some grand public useless (or almost useless) structures to make them proud of themselves. Or worse, to give the commoners something to strive for. The prices for the opera house are not as high as I thought. But few in the banlieus are going to ever use them. Yet, they helped pay for it.

On the Statue of Liberty, the interesting thing is that it looks like the French government paid for the statue in 1882. A nice gesture, however, France could have used the money elsewhere at the time. But the pedestal for the statue was paid for entirely through PRIVATE donations, rather than at public expense. I think it this really shows the difference in how our countries view these things.

[Dot KING]

Azloon, you still aren't distinguishing between, muslims and muslim terrorists.
"Putting in jail" as you put it is more a manner of speaking than a literal intention. Reread the article reversing the words "jews" and "muslims" and wonder if you should get away with it.
It's racism, my consciousness is through the ceiling on this.

[azloon]

Dot --

american is nation of big risk-takers. i am one of them.

i never mentioned being rich, tho i commented on the opportunities (the operative american credo) available to me during the dot.com boom. between 1985 and 2003, i made and lost, three times, a sum i won't mention here, but suffice it to say it was alot for me. so i was totally broke three times. i fortunately was able to get it back one last time and to retire in modest comfort. just lucky i guess.

but if i hadn't ultimately (eventually?) succeeded modestly, i would be working at mcdonald's. and that would have been ok with me. money is not everyting, EVEN TO AMERICANS. it's a scorecard for a very competitve nation that loves keeping score.

[Lilly]

Re : Azloon’s controversial post

« … does represent the view, at least portions of it, of many of the victims of modern muslim terrorism. »

Azloon,

You added that you had some sympathy (?) with what was said. I take it as “given”. Some of it reflects my own observation, i.e. that present-day ‘racism’ and what happened in Germany in WWII need to be distinguished.

I consider this text a ‘contemporary historic document’ in that it explains a view that seems to reflect an attitude. You may as well not mention it, and we will not talk of this attitude. Will it disappear if it is left unmentioned? It’s a reality, and I assume that readers and contributors of this blog will not applaud in agreement. Therefore, you could send it and test other people’s tolerance of free speech.

Now, we could discuss what it means, why you sympathize with this view, whether educated European non-muslims would spell out their views in a similar way. If no – if yes, then why? How come there is a portion of US population who express hatred against muslims? Do Europeans (portions of the population) feel the same without pronouncing it?

It could be an interesting topic to discuss. Many are most uncomfortable with this confrontation. Your post expresses a reality that we should be as aware of as of the reality of beauty and love and international understanding. There will be no international understanding anyway if we ignore the unpleasant facets of life.

[Lilly]

« Some of us aren’t in the « rich » league (and frankly if I were I’d be more discrete about it)… » (DOT KING)

DOT KING ,

You are telling us that you are not in the « rich league ». Why should it be more honourable to confess to being poor than to confess wealth?

Every one of us is blessed with – health and/or beauty and/or other special gifts and/or wealth. And every one of us should use all gifts to make the best out of them, and we all have our challenges, worries and tribulations despite of these gifts - and because of them.

To be discrete of what one has presumes the other might envy our blessings and feel offended. Every blessing comes with a responsibility because we’re here to make ‘use’ of our gifts. And you may never know whether the one you envy today will be very poor tomorrow.

Do financial blessings guarantee happiness? If wealth is as attractive as you appear to presume (otherwise no one should envy the other), why don’t you strive for it but are content (are you?) with your situation? Do you really want to change your life to belong to the ‘rich’?

[azloon]

["It's racism, my consciousness is through the ceiling on this"]

DOT -- then the post accomplished it's purpose -- to remind you of this, and for you to tell others. that's the value of unfettered public debate.

i have to say my area of "consciousness through the ceiling" is not racsim per se, only evil which is perpetrated in its name. if an individual wants to harbor rascist thoughts, and occasionally speak of them, i don't see any real harm. in fact, i see value in it. it's the truth, and it's coming out. i have heard many times african-americans say they prefer the public bigots to the private ones.

are people so stupid that they can't make their own judgements about the truth, or lack thereof, contained in such statements?

clearly in the muslim world, this view of speech is not shared, and a person could be imprisoned, or even put to death for speaking unpopular sentiments. i deplore that 'value' if you can call it that. i believe the freedom of speech is the most important of our constitutional rights, so you may be able to imagine how my opinions on this issue have been formed.

cheers

[eygh]

Azloon,

What bothers me with this "article" is that it reeks of the Eurabia theorists crowd and extreme Istraeli right-wing nut mantra.

France has been under heavy flak by the same people who used real nazi-like type of propaganda to defame/disinform in order to manipulate French jews into moving en masse to Israël.

During French presidential elections they even went as far as predicting that Sarkozy could not possibly be elected (since he had jewish blood) by the arabised/Islamised antisemite French.

Thank god, France still has an important and active (economically, intellectually, culturally, ...) jewish community. France and the jews have a long history together.

I'm reasonably optimistic about the fact that French muslims as a whole will do as well in respect of the French republic laws and principles.

It just takes time, they are afterall newcomers. There is also the absolute necessity to fight all extremisms as well as getting some efficient control on excessive immigration.

Contrary to what is commonly thought integration is indeed in progress for a lot of French of muslim religion/culture origin (they are not all arabs).

I'll try to find the link to a very interesting article I read about the subject. I believe it was by J.Vaisse.

[Dot KING]

Lilly, Thank you for the sermon - I don't attach more value to being poor than to being rich - I don't claim to be poor, I just say I'm not in the "rich" league, which is true, but I also think riches come in forms other than money. I don't envy anyone, let's be clear about that. I work, for a salary, and I enjoy the work and a decent life, no complaints, OK?
Discussions purely about money and the pursuit of it just bore me - I've never been a materialist. This blog last night, IMO, was a pure politico-monetary exchange, devoid of any human values.
Therefore I asked for my wrap; a big yellow taxi was outside with the engine running, and it took me back to my pink hotel, past the boutique and the swinging hotspot.
I don't count blessings either.
Well, in fact, you've missed my point entirely if you think it was an attack on the rich. It was just another point of view on the much-vilified unions.
Azloon, I can go along with what you say about public rather than private bigots, but not everyone is discerning enough to analyse the language used. I worked with Muslim families and their children in the UK and found it an enriching (!) rather than a negative experience. Prejudice comes from a lack of understanding (I don't mean you) and people in general are afraid of what they don't understand, they harbour the prejudice instead of trying to understand. They close, they exclude.
There are muslim non-terrorists, I believe. And there are terrorists within France and Spain and on Corsica, as there were in Ireland not so long ago, and they weren't muslims, they were Orange, or Catholic, or Nationalist. When the bomb explodes, it doesn't matter whether it's planted by a muslim or a christian - or a jew for that matter, it's just as deadly.

[eygh]

Here is the link to the article about the book by Justin Vaïsse and Jonathan Laurence

http://www.brookings.edu/press/Books/2006/integratingislam.aspx

[maggie g]

Dot,

Your story of the CGT really amazed me. I had no idea they did nice things like that. Very interesting.

Your debate with Azloon re free speech vs racism is very interesting too. Hard to decide who is most right.

I am in Rumania right now and using a computer without a mouse (which I am not used to) and it takes me forever to move up and down to check what people have said, so I can't really participate. A lot of interesting discussions going on, though.

[maggie g]

Dot,

Your story of the CGT really amazed me. I had no idea they did nice things like that. Very interesting.

Your debate with Azloon re free speech vs racism is very interesting too. Hard to decide who is most right.

I am in Rumania right now and using a computer without a mouse (which I am not used to) and it takes me forever to move up and down to check what people have said, so I can't really participate. A lot of interesting discussions going on, though.

[Valentin]

Terry,

I still say there are utilitarian purposes and high-minded ones, and both are just as justified.
The poors in banlieues hardly ever go to the Opera, certainly, but I can assure you they just as certainly didn't pay ONE dime for it. Middle-class and rich people only pay taxes in France, which makes less than half of the population. The others live on behalf of the "solidarity", more or less, and incidentally go on strike, thus giving democracy a bad name, besides shooting themselves in the foot.

So the Opera is made out of my tax money, and it is me who uses it. A very nice arrangement, I find.

As to the pyramids or the enlightenment paintings, an elitist kind like Ayn Rand would rather say, at least their miserable lives served to SOME PURPOSE! :)

Ok, that sounds bad. But if the kings and princes in Europe had not given overly fat moneybags to painters and composers, maybe the poor would have lived a bit better, but you would have had no classical music, no impressionism, no renaissance, no art, no nothing.
Do you think mankind would have been happier? I think not. Mankind needs planet-size projects too, and art, and ideals, and dreams, even more than utilitarian stuff. And if another Big Rock falls from the sky, what the next race will find, will be exactly the torch-carrying arm and the proud head of the Statue of Liberty! :)

[Lilly]

DOT KING,

the politico-monetary business, i.e. knowledge thereof, feeds families. I'm no materialist but it doesn't bother me.

[Lilly]

"I don't claim to be poor." (DOT KING)

DOT KING,

I didn't say you did. You just felt offended by people who were discussing (a lot of) money.

[Little Big Horn]

Hi Azloon,

The question of freedom of speech is rather different between America and Europe. I will not say that one is right on another of course, to each is own truth, but I'll defend the European view though.

If somebody wants to say publicly that Auschwitz doesn't exist, white is a superior color, Muslims eat their children, the Sun turns around the Earth, capitalism produces prosperity, or universe has been created by a God 7000 years ago... well, it's up to him.

But you know that such discourses are not innocent, unmotivated, that some people want to hear them, and where they invariably lead... to violence.

Words are weapons, especially in powerful figures’ hands, and speeches are not equals at all. A negationnist wants to be considered as an historian, an astrologer as an astronomer, and a sophist as a philosopher. For islamists, Koran is Science. Nike falsifies a Nietzschean expression, and the slogans Sarkozy used to be elected, want to look like true deepful thoughts (and Hitler had stollen Chaplin's moustache, remember?). Believe me, if the two kind of speeches are mixed, reason will be annilihated by passion and the irrational, much powerful, will won. Freedom of speech conducts too to interactivy and bla bla bla which is the contrary of knowledge and education. And the art of conversation should be practiced only by people who know how to shut up and listen.

If our societies were fully adult, I may defend the American view: everybody can hold a gun, freedom (which means responsability). But honestly, this is not mature. A true adult society would make a difference between a childish speech, and an adult one (which, as children's, say the truth). But such a society cannot exist, because we are always children first, wrapped with opinion and believes, and become adult isn't so easy. Then weaker people (minds), naive or credulous, have to be protected from dangerous insanes, hidden under the appeareances of reason, or authority. Mullahs' tongues in London will spill US or European blood, as Muslim blood. But it's just a few tears in comparison of what the Neo-cons' preaches for "Freeedom, Juuuustice, Liiiiberty, Demoooocracy" make pour . And You can't be tolerant with intolerance. Never.

As far as W calls for Crusade are concerned, either you don't take his words seriously, and he just should resign (because the Mullah of the USA can't make these kind of jokes), or he is SERIOUS, and yes, in that case, he has to go to jail directly, read books and take pills. A single man can't play with other's lives. Besides I'm against death penalty, as life sentence for teenagers, and for the right to strike. Real mess (I'm French), not symbolic one, because:

"LA DICTATURE C'EST FERME TA GUEULE, LA DEMOCRATIE CAUSE TOUJOURS".

Dictatorship is shut your mouth, democracy blah blah whatever...

[Little Big Horn]

Hi Azloon,

The question of freedom of speech is rather different between America and Europe. I will not say that one is right on another of course, to each is own truth, but I'll defend the European view though.

If somebody wants to say publicly that Auschwitz doesn't exist, white is a superior color, Muslims eat their children, the Sun turns around the Earth, capitalism produces prosperity, or universe has been created by a God 7000 years ago... well, it's up to him.

But you know that such discourses are not innocent, unmotivated, that some people want to hear them, and where they invariably lead... to violence.

Words are weapons, especially in powerful figures’ hands, and speeches are not equals at all. A negationnist wants to be considered as an historian, an astrologer as an astronomer, and a sophist as a philosopher. For islamists, Koran is Science. Nike falsifies a Nietzschean expression, and the slogans Sarkozy used to be elected, want to look like true deepful thoughts (and Hitler had stollen Chaplin's moustache, remember?). Believe me, if the two kind of speeches are mixed, reason will be annilihated by passion and the irrational, much powerful, will won. Freedom of speech conducts too to interactivy and bla bla bla which is the contrary of knowledge and education. And the art of conversation should be practiced only by people who know how to shut up and listen.

If our societies were fully adult, I may defend the American view: everybody can hold a gun, freedom (which means responsability). But honestly, this is not mature. A true adult society would make a difference between a childish speech, and an adult one (which, as children's, say the truth). But such a society cannot exist, because we are always children first, wrapped with opinion and believes, and become adult isn't so easy. Then weaker people (minds), naive or credulous, have to be protected from dangerous insanes, hidden under the appeareances of reason, or authority. Mullahs' tongues in London will spill US or European blood, as Muslim blood. But it's just a few tears in comparison of what the Neo-cons' preaches for "Freeedom, Juuuustice, Liiiiberty, Demoooocracy" make pour . And You can't be tolerant with intolerance. Never.

As far as W calls for Crusade are concerned, either you don't take his words seriously, and he just should resign (because the Mullah of the USA can't make these kind of jokes), or he is SERIOUS, and yes, in that case, he has to go to jail directly, read books and take pills. A single man can't play with other's lives. Besides I'm against death penalty, as life sentence for teenagers, and for the right to strike. Real mess (I'm French), not symbolic one, because:

"LA DICTATURE C'EST FERME TA GUEULE, LA DEMOCRATIE CAUSE TOUJOURS".

Dictatorship is shut your mouth, democracy blah blah whatever...

[Little Big Horn]

Hi Azloon,

The question of freedom of speech is rather different between America and Europe. I will not say that one is right on another of course, to each is own truth, but I'll defend the European view though.

If somebody wants to say publicly that Auschwitz doesn't exist, white is a superior color, Muslims eat their children, the Sun turns around the Earth, capitalism produces prosperity, or universe has been created by a God 7000 years ago... well, it's up to him.

But you know that such discourses are not innocent, unmotivated, that some people want to hear them, and where they invariably lead... to violence.

Words are weapons, especially in powerful figures’ hands, and speeches are not equals at all. A negationnist wants to be considered as an historian, an astrologer as an astronomer, and a sophist as a philosopher. For islamists, Koran is Science. Nike falsifies a Nietzschean expression, and the slogans Sarkozy used to be elected, want to look like true deepful thoughts (and Hitler had stollen Chaplin's moustache, remember?). Believe me, if the two kind of speeches are mixed, reason will be annilihated by passion and the irrational, much powerful, will won. Freedom of speech conducts too to interactivy and bla bla bla which is the contrary of knowledge and education. And the art of conversation should be practiced only by people who know how to shut up and listen.

If our societies were fully adult, I may defend the American view: everybody can hold a gun, freedom (which means responsability). But honestly, this is not mature. A true adult society would make a difference between a childish speech, and an adult one (which, as children's, say the truth). But such a society cannot exist, because we are always children first, wrapped with opinion and believes, and become adult isn't so easy. Then weaker people (minds), naive or credulous, have to be protected from dangerous insanes, hidden under the appeareances of reason, or authority. Mullahs' tongues in London will spill US or European blood, as Muslim blood. But it's just a few tears in comparison of what the Neo-cons' preaches for "Freeedom, Juuuustice, Liiiiberty, Demoooocracy" make pour . And You can't be tolerant with intolerance. Never.

As far as W calls for Crusade are concerned, either you don't take his words seriously, and he just should resign (because the Mullah of the USA can't make these kind of jokes), or he is SERIOUS, and yes, in that case, he has to go to jail directly, read books and take pills. A single man can't play with other's lives. Besides I'm against death penalty, as life sentence for teenagers, and for the right to strike. Real mess (I'm French), not symbolic one, because:

"LA DICTATURE C'EST FERME TA GUEULE, LA DEMOCRATIE CAUSE TOUJOURS".

Dictatorship is shut your mouth, democracy blah blah whatever...

Hi Azloon,

The question of freedom of speech is rather different between America and Europe. I will not say that one is right on another of course, to each is own truth, but I'll defend the European view though.

If somebody wants to say publicly that Auschwitz doesn't exist, white is a superior color, Muslims eat their children, the Sun turns around the Earth, capitalism produces prosperity, or universe has been created by a God 7000 years ago... well, it's up to him.

But you know that such discourses are not innocent, unmotivated, that some people want to hear them, and where they invariably lead... to violence.

Words are weapons, especially in powerful figures’ hands, and speeches are not equals at all. A negationnist wants to be considered as an historian, an astrologer as an astronomer, and a sophist as a philosopher. For islamists, Koran is Science. Nike falsifies a Nietzschean expression, and the slogans Sarkozy used to be elected, want to look like true deepful thoughts (and Hitler had stollen Chaplin's moustache, remember?). Believe me, if the two kind of speeches are mixed, reason will be annilihated by passion and the irrational, much powerful, will won. Freedom of speech conducts too to interactivy and bla bla bla which is the contrary of knowledge and education. And the art of conversation should be practiced only by people who know how to shut up and listen.

If our soc