A million French teachers can't be wrong

   

Why are French school teachers always so miserable?

I will not be popular with my teacher friends for taking another shot at an education world that seems permanently angry, defensive and resistant to change. But it's time for a new swipe because most of France's 12 million school children returned to classes yesterday -- including my two teenagers -- and Nicolas Sarkozy used the occasion to upset the teaching establishment with a call for a change of attitude.

If you know the set-up, skip this paragraph: France has a uniform national education system commanded by a single Ministry. Almost 850,000 primary and secondary teachers are civil servants, and 145,000 more work in private schools. They all impart a national syllabus that is heavy on knowledge but light on encouraging imagination. There is little sport or other non-classroom activity. Despite Europe's second highest per capita spending on primary and secondary education (after Sweden), French kids perform modestly by European and world standards. French teachers, who largely support leftwing ideas, see themselves as guardians of the egalitarian republic. They complain but hate anyone touching their status quo. 

Sarko did that yesterday, dropping in on a Loire valley school at Blois. He delivered a lecture that was guaranteed to anger the unions who despise him as a rightwing philistine.

[Above: Renaissance King Sarko, as seen by  Plantu of  le Monde. Note Cécilia Sarkozy as Marie-Antoinette saying 'What the hell am I doing here?'] 

The president's unwanted medicine for an educational "Renaissance" is being sent as a 32-page letter to all 993,000 professeurs and instituteurs. "The time for a new start has come," says Super-Sarko. "We have delayed it too long."

Teachers must stimulate children and help raise their self-esteem.  "For too long, education has neglected the personality of the child (because) knowledge has been put above everything else," says Sarkozy.  That might sound odd to parents in, say, Britain and the USA where the pendulum swung long ago towards feel-good education, but it's needed in France. I am tired of seeing the spirits of my bright 13-year-old crushed by joyless teachers who send her home with scores of zero in dictation.  "Her problem is she's operating dans une optique d'échec -- in a mindset of failure," the French teacher at her eighth arrondissement school told me the other day..

Sarkozy wants more values and discipline and respect for teachers, with children standing up when they enter the classroom. He also wants more sports and arts activities less time in the formal classroom.

The teachers unions were groaning before Sarko had finished speaking. They have been here before, with a string of back-to-basics reforms and governments who see teachers as ageing sixties revolutionaries. Gérard Aschieri, boss of the FSU, the main teachers' union, dismissed the Sarkozy letter as "beneath the challenges of today." The schools, he said, need more staff and resources and extra help to deal with disorder in the poor urban zones.

The Sarkozy letter's "great failings" include failure to address social inequality, said Aschieri. In one of those ideological niggles that tell you everything, Aschieri accused Sarkozy of elitism because "he talks about 'sport' but not about 'physical and sporting education'."

The teachers are already furious with Sarkozy because their profession has taken a hit with his scheme for trimming the civil service. Their giant ministry, which employs 1.2 million staff (yes, 1.2 million), is to lose 17,000 jobs next year. Sarkozy and his government say they know that teachers, once a noble profession in France, are underpaid and suffer from declining public esteem. The answer, they say, is better performance.

Sarkozy has a long list of revolutionary things he would like to do but cannot because they will bring the strike-happy unions onto the streets. These include loosening the rigid limits on class-room time, performance-related pay, comparison among schools and the right of schools to hire and fire their own staff.

As it is, there is a fair chance that the teachers will strike this winter over Sarkozy's plans to include them in a new law imposing minimum service during public sector strikes.

Perhaps I am being unfair. There are many dedicated, excellent teachers and the rigorous French system does help the cleverest children shine. But the faillings are obvious for anyone who comes in contact with the system.

Comments

[Sam Young]

Yes, i can say that I stopped being a foreigner the day my children started going to school. And yes again, CB, you have put your finger on it; i find i have to make a point of giving my children something other than the the boring leftism with which we are all familiar. It is very unlikely that NS will be able to do anything about it. Regarding strikes... well, they don't bother me, because my kids more or less educate themselves.
And of course, we are all familiar with the old joke Question: "how many teachers does it take to change a lightbulb"?
Answer: "what do you mean, change?"

[azloon]

CB, condolences to you and your children. when ones kid's attend uninspired schools, and they struggle, nothing much else seems to matter much. it's particularly painful if you remember your own experience differently, with teachers who connected with you, who fired your curiosity. when i sensed the same problem for one of my kids (two of mine adapted better to rigidity and ineptitude than the third), i had to work hard to convince that child that school wasn't the measure of his worth. he was incredibly street smart,* with great money sense, but a slow 'school learner,' and messy, which most teachers hate. he survived public schools, barely graduating from secondary school, but went on to a university degree and now works in a rewarding business situation.

so, personally, i experienced what was supposed to be excellent public education (which i believe in), but watched my own children exposed to something less. all i can say is that they survived, and are now thriving. but it sounds as though french schools ought to have an overhauling just on general principles, and after so much elapsed time in the current configuration.

i have mixed feelings about sarko's ideas about forced respect in the classroom. a measure of discipline is desirable. but these kids didn't join the military so saluting shouldn't be mandatory. they are in public school, for chrissakes. if they break the fair rules, bust 'em. making them kiss their teachers ring is not going to produce anything of lasting value.

"Teachers must simulate children and help raise their self-esteem" -- from CB blog story.

a typo no doubt, but a suggestive one: if only teachers could "simulate children,' remember what being 13 is like, with its wonder and its trembling, schools would be different places. kids detect phoniness instantly, i.e. teachers on a power trip who don't know their asses from their elbows. it's the beginning of cynicism for many kids. "if society has annointed this asshole to teach me, then society isn't looking out for me," a child might reasonably ask. they're right, i'm afraid. and not a bad lesson to learn, btw.

*as my family and i were watching the crumbling of the berlin wall on CNN in 1990, with all its teary implications, this son looked long and hard and told me, in a measured tone of voice, "i would sure like to have the mcdonald's franchise in east berlin." i knew i didn't have to worry about having to support him in his 20s.

[Mark Arneson]

"A million French teachers can't be wrong"

Is that a little twist on the old joke: "A million flies can't be wrong - eat sh*t"?

Teachers are to education what flies are to food critics.
[No, it's an allusion to a Cole Porter s based on a 1927 hit titled "50 million Frenchmen can't be wrong". CB]

[rocket]

I have always been totally amazed to see how the French school system (The French corporate system as well) and the teachers in particular failed to offer any type of praise to their students. Having known some French public school teachers myself and having had some interesting discussions with them as per education, I think it is safe to say that a good majority of them hadn't really planned to be teachers in the public system but just kinda ended up there. So it is not astonishing to see how some of them transfer their bitterness onto their students.(Hi Dominique)

Often, If I may say so, the French are champions at transferring blame on to others and if one is not well versed on the pre-traced roadmap of behavioral France, one can find oneself destabilized by it.

See the Paris syndrome.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6197921.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,,1930600,00.html

The French system puts too much emphasis on theory and not enough on implementation.

Plus, they need to teach Smiling and Praise 101 here.

I always said. How can you have those that know not, teach something they cannot even fathom. Thus, the behavior is propagated

Yet set in their ways as to the universal truth of the benefits of "denigration" these same people are unable to understand that a little bit of praise goes along way towards motivation.

Rather sad in itself and certainly not likely to change anytime soon.

Just am happy that I was able to avoid THIS educational system.

[rocket]

I thought it was a play on the book

"Sixty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong: Why We Love France, But Not the French "

What do you think Charles? [No, the book, published quite recently, was also a play on the song/musical from 1927. CB]

[Joan]

This all explains a recent experience: I take dance lessons for adults while in Paris. This summer the instructor was a competent, upbeat guy who made people laugh and delivered corrections in a lighthearted, friendly way. Some of the students complained that he was not a good teacher, that he wasn't precise enough and didn't give enough corrections. He went on vacation, and the new teacher is an arrogant SOB who screams and yells and berates students, even ordering one of them off the floor--the students cower in the back with fearful, sour expressions--and yet they say they much prefer this teacher. He gives good corrections, they say. I wondered if this reaction was based on expectations related to regular school experiences--evidently it is.

[Candia]

When I first moved to France 5 years ago I put my dyslexic 9 year old into the local primary school, which, given the size of our village, had less than 40 kids taught by two teachers in two mixed aged groups. I was sure the set-up was sufficiently benign that she would thrive, make the transition easily and learn French quickly. How wrong I was! The teacher for her age group was at best tyranical and at worst horribly cruel. She ran the class by intimidation, constantly shouting at, abusing and humiliating the children. She had no idea of the implications of dyslexia and was not interested in addressing them. My daughter was cowed by the weekly nightmare of recitation, (learning a poem by heart and spouting it out) - one week the poem learned by a class of 9 year olds was a graphic account of suicide. This would have been hard for her in English having no short term memory. To do it French was almost impossible, yet no leeway was given and my interjections were not tolerated. Six months of that and my daughter was transformed from a confident outgoing school-loving child to a complete wreck who to this day is very resistant to learning or using French. She is now 14 and very happy in an English boarding school in Switzerland - her happiness comes at a cost we had not anticipated when we opted for the simple life in France!!

[Joan]

I heard Sarkozy's talk on the news yesterday, and I think he is spot on, although the clip was pretty general. I'm not sure I agree with comments here that children need less intellectual rigor and more encouragement of the imagination--I think that one needs a strong knowledge base before creativity and imagination can really work effectively. In the US I see the results of the "teach them how to think" approach, and my impression is that today's new graduates cannot think at all because they don't know the material they need to think about. They can't do simple arithmetic (they were never made to memorize addition or multiplication tables), they don't know anything of history (it was all dumbed down to eliminate politically incorrect material), they can't spell (no memorization of spelling words), they can't write (no Latin, Greek, or grammar, or serious reading material), and they can't speak coherently (no diction lessons or oral class presentations, no memorization of Shakespeare or other dead white male poets). It just sounds like the French, like the Americans, need to replace the current batch of teachers with competent professionals. It will be good when the 60's question-authority generation is finally out of the picture--who knows how much damage they've done to future generations.

[Daniel Strohl]

Charles,

Excellent article. Excellent description of "'l'état des lieux" (state of the premises ?). You are not unfair at all - "There are many dedicated, excellent teachers" : this is true but alas they are being "encircled" by the unions for which egalitarianism means "nivellement par le bas" (levelling to the bottom ?) - as well for the teachers as for the pupils or students.

The problem for the unions is to have a maximum of members (and to cash in their membership fees, even if they are modest) - therefore, they will never be in favor of promoting the best nor even to try to improve the level of the "less best" (sorry for the grammar!).

Regarding the boss (this word has for me a mafia like connotation in English - am I wrong, Azloon or Charles ?) of the FSU union, Gérard Aschieri, I would call him using a very polite understatement (litote in French) "un vieux crabe" (old crab) ripe for anticipated retirment. Younger and more open minded people are urgently needed - I am myself 72, therefore I feel entitled to give my opinion on the matter.

"As it is, there is a fair chance that the teachers will strike this winter over Sarkozy's plans". I am not so sure of that, for the excellent reason that the teachers (and their unions) know for sure that their strike time will not be paid - in former times, civil servant strikers got always may be not full pay, but almost. I am pretty sure that the well known principle that I mentioned some time ago (have the heart at the left, and the wallet on the right) will apply. And furthermore, public servant strikes are less and less popular -

PS : "Her problem is she's operating dans une optique d'échec" - this is a brilliantly typical but unbearable example of the jargon used by those classifying themselves as the "elite" of our civil servants. It is much more easy to "faire de belles phrases" (utter beautiful sentences) than to make its job properly.

[Daniel Strohl]

Joan,

Excellent - congratulations !

"It will be good when the 60's question-authority generation is finally out of the picture--who knows how much damage they've done to future generations". So true !

[Frank Schnittger]

I think we are in danger of confusing a number of quite distinct challenges which any public education system faces, but which seem to present themselves in a particularly acute form in France.

Firstly teachers are said to be dominated by the influence of the permissive, authority challenging '60's, and yet they seem to be extremely authoritarian in their approach.

Secondly, the educational and psychological traditions which came to the fore in the '60's were all about more child centred, encouraging, and explorative forms of learning, which were sensitive to the varying ways in which real children learn. Yet the French system seems to be incredibly inflexible and doctrinaire.

It all reminds me of the old poem which recommends that people should be half revolutionaries rather than full revolutionaries. A half revolution means things are turned on their head, a full revolution (as in a wheel) means that things end up where they started.

Socialism started as an idealistic and well-intentioned movement to change very unequal and unjust authoritarian societies of the early industrial and Victorian age. It ended up, in its more Stalinist manifestations, becoming just as authoritarian as the imperial regimes it replaced.

The ideologies changed, the realities did not. The "leftism" of the modern teaching profession is but a re-incarnation of the Fascist authoritarianism of a previous age.

I find Joan's experience of the dance class astonishing: that grown adults should actually want to be humiliated, abused and treated like children in a class which is actually about teaching a skill associated with entertainment, socialising and enjoyment.

I chose my children's primary school when I noticed that the children's behaviour never changed when a teacher entered or left the classroom. They were busy working together or alone on projects and continued doing so when the teacher left the room. Their discipline wasn't based on fear of authority but on love of learning.

(My own experience had been of pandemonium breaking out whenever a teacher turned his/her back. Respect was based on fear, and fear alone, and this translated into all sorts of bullying inside and outside the class room amongst the pupils themselves.)

If you teach people to respect only through fear, they will seek to create fear in others to gain respect. The problem with French education is not that modern educational ideas have been applied, but that lip service has been paid to them whilst the exact opposite has actually been done.

George Orwell would have recognised the syndrome.

[azloon]

Joan, Daniel:

in theory, i am part of this "QUESTION AUTHORITY" generation, tho you never saw this bumper sticker on my volkwagen camper van (next to the flower pedal sticker).

i did however have a sticker that read: 'VISUALIZE WHIRLED PEAS.' (daniel, tell me if i need to explain -- this is very funny to this absurdist american).

the only problem with this generation, of which i am one, is that it turned out to be wildly selfish and hypocritical. now they are inheriting all their weathly parents' money, and have emerged as a strange mix of old hippie values, and plutocratic excess.

this generation's children seem to more well-grounded (but didn't have the vietnam draft to galvanize them) and more conservative, in my observation.

france probably ought to seriously consider the 'charter school' option as a way of making an end run around the education establishment. i understand sarko favors these schools. they have made a difference in the u.s., if only to alert the public schools that they have competition. public schools now advertise on tv to attract students (for whom they are paid a state subsidy, as are the charter schools). i personally would not send my child to a charter school, because i believe in public school educaiton, but they have had a salutory effect on public schools here.

parents who have children in french schools need to capture the moment, demand something better, different, NOW (a revolution, if you will). CB, if you join the demonstation, please post a photo.

charter schools are an option. they don't solve every problem, and create some of their own, but they are proactive, and your children can't wait for disgustingly ignorant adults to change their ways.

I am curious -- has there ever been a mass demonstration in protest over the quality of french public education at the elementary and secondary levels? is home schooling an viable option in france, as it is in the u.s. (harvard admits hundreds of home-schooled kids every year)?

[John Gregory Flinn]

Well, Mr.Bremner I sympathise with your children's problems but my experience seems at odds with yours, and some of the posts so far.

Here in rural Pas-de-Calais my son at College, and daughter just completed her Science BAC (+ mention), generally enjoy school.
My daughter had a problem with her Maths Teachers who seem very pure and pedantic. I made a point of advising them of this and that in the majority of cases Maths was a service subject to Science. I'm not sure it made any difference but my daughter felt better!

As a Teacher in the UK previously I can say that my experience here is better than the UK bog-standard 'Comps' I knew in the N.E of England, and roughly equates to the average private school.

It's a pity about sports and games, and they should do more. So I think M.Sarkozy's encouragements, especially in this area (and of course discipline) are well-placed.
Although, incidentally it does'nt seem to affect French prowess in this field later on.

One more thing.
Yes, they are mostly leftist, but at least they have an active, albeit smaller right-wing trade union as well.
In Britain, one whiff of right-wing activity can result in suspension from teaching. There's a case in point at a school in Durham.

[George Cliff]

I am a teacher in France, and your report does not reflect the whole truth. 11,200 jobs are likely to go, not 17,000 to start with. A certain degree of theory is still needed in education - not everything can come from the imagination! Without the initial input, how can you actually expect a child to think and perform? Having been at school in both the English private sector and the French state sector, give me France any day! I was taught far more here and was far happier. And before you ask, yes, I am English but am much happier since I have lived in France.

[Dominique]

Charles,

You write Sarko's words : "Teachers must stimulate children and help raise their self-esteem. "For too long, education has neglected the personality of the child (because) knowledge has been put above everything else," says Sarkozy. That might sound odd to parents in, say, Britain and the USA where the pendulum swung long ago towards feel-good education, but it's needed in France"

I am afraid you did not understand Sarko very well. He said quite the opposite. He was talking of the pre-68 educations system. He then speaks about today's educationnal system and complains that it is too much "child oriented".

I think that what he proposes goes in the very opposite direction of what you actually want for your children.

below the text in french :

"Longtemps l'éducation a négligé la personnalité de l'enfant. Il fallait que chacun entrât dans un moule unique, que tous apprissent la même chose, en même temps, de la même manière. Le savoir était placé au dessus de tout. Cette éducation avait sa grandeur. Exigeante et rigoureuse, elle tirait vers le haut, elle amenait à se dépasser malgré soi.

L'exigence et la rigueur de cette éducation en faisait un puissant facteur de promotion sociale. Beaucoup d'enfants néanmoins en souffraient et se trouvaient exclus de ses bienfaits. Ce n'était pas parce qu'ils manquaient de talent, ni parce qu'ils étaient incapables d'apprendre et de comprendre mais parce que leur sensibilité, leur intelligence, leur caractère se trouvaient mal à l'aise dans le cadre unique que l'on voulait imposer à tous.

Par une sorte de réaction, depuis quelques décennies, c'est la personnalité de l'enfant qui a été mise au centre de l'éducation au lieu du savoir.

Accorder plus d'importance à ce que l'enfant a de particulier, à ce par quoi se manifeste son individualité, à son caractère, à sa psychologie, était nécessaire, salutaire. Il était important que tous soient mis en mesure de tirer le meilleur parti d'eux-mêmes, de développer leurs points forts, de corriger leurs faiblesses. Mais à trop valoriser la spontanéité, à trop avoir peur de contraindre la personnalité, à ne plus voir l'éducation qu'à travers le prisme de la psychologie, on est tombé dans un excès contraire. On ne s'est plus assez appliqué à transmettre. "

[Thanks, Dominique. Yes, you're right what Sarkozy said was more complicated than my resumé. I was working from le Monde's summary yesterday which pulled out the
quotes I used. Sarkozy's full text is a bit self-contradictory, arguing both ways, as the teachers' union has pointed out. he wants a return to old rigour and also more care for helping the child develop. CB]

[Maggie G]

I have been very critical of the French educational system in this blog, but in all fairness, I have to say we never had any problem with authoritarian teachers. Both my sons always had decent teachers. For me, the problems were with the system -- for example, the stupid tradition of dictés where some kids never get anything but zero.

It is often the parents who are authoritarian about school. My younger son used to speak scornfully about girls in his class who would burst into tears if they got anything lower than about 17 in any subject, because they were scared of what their parents would say.

And I remember at least two occasions when my son's class was let off early because of teachers being absent. He'd phone home from the office and ask me to come and pick him up because he couldn't get out otherwise. Even when they knew very well it was me, because of my accent, the administration wouldn't let him out, and I'd go to the school really exasperated, and feeling like complaining that it was a school, not a prison. But on arrival at the school, both times I found another mother telling off the directrice because her child had been outside the gate when she arrived, and I realized that the French parents WANT the school to be like a prison.

In general I find that French parents don't trust their kids much and control them a lot more than we do. I remember one kid who at ten years old had never crossed a street alone in his life, not even a quiet residential one. His parents were sure that they'd lose control of him if they let him.

All the same, my experience in my chorus is somewhat similar to Joan's experience in the dance class. I have sung in choirs all my life -- once even in Africa where I was the only white -- but the one I sing in here has the most difficult director I've ever met. She's okay when she's in a good mood, but in her bad moods she has reduced just about everyone in the chorus to tears at one time or another, even the men practically. I'm never sure if it's always like this in France, or if it's just her. (I think it's just her.)

[azloon]

CB, agree sarko's remarks must be a bit contradictory (at least to those not inside his active brain), if he is advocating more "respect" toward authority in the classroom while at the same time calling for more positive attention on the individual student. probably would be a good idea to address these issues separately in time.

but what do we expect? he's a talented, but ultimately, a typical politician, at least in speaking out of both sides of his mouth. they never miss an opportunity to get another vote, maybe from a liberal AND a conservative based on their position on the same issue.

[rocket]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUKL0586506820070905

These are intreresting times in France indeed

[Daniel Strohl]

Azloon,

Yes, please give me the explanation of "visualize whirled peas " - I didn't get it. It took me some time also to get your joke with the dwarf ... May be I should drink Irish whisky instead of Scotch - it would possibly make things easier ...

"...with teachers who connected with you, who fired your curiosity".

Yes, this is exactly what normal French teachers tried to do prior to 1968/1981 and the related doctrinal sequels. I had the chance to have such teachers and at that time, the French public school system had a very good reputation. However, as Rocket has pointed out above, it was already a little bit too theoretical. There was discipline, of course, but not in an exaggerated manner as it could have been the case in the UK (spanking, rod etc). Therefore, there was no real reason to move the wheel following Frank's excellent image. But since that time, the wheel rotates erratically, following the ideas of the successive ministers and the corresponding "counter-wheeling" of the unions ... I hope strongly that Sarkozy will succeed in fixing things.

May be the biggest difference between the ancient system and the new system was that in former times most of the teachers asked themselves what they could do for their pupils or students, whereas nowadays many teachers ask themselves and their unions what the state can do for them ...

PS : Yes, there are charter schools ("écoles privées") in France - they have most of the time an excellent reputation; their teachers hold as far as I know the same diplomas as their public counterparts. The funny thing is that many teachers of the public sector send their children at charter schools ...

"Has there ever been a mass demonstration in protest over the quality of french public education at the elementary and secondary levels?" : NO

"Is home schooling an viable option in france ?" : No, not really. It is mostly used as a complement to school. School is mandatory (and free of charge) in France up to the age of 16. There are a few derogations to the school obligation, replaced by home schooling and "cours par correspondance". But I am not aware of the details.

[Jorg Andersen]

It's not just the French who go in for rigorous teaching methods. In Austria and Germany it's the same. The method is negative reinforcement, as the psychologists say. Don't give praise. Tell them what they've done wrong. I have heard this about France from many friends.

[azloon]

Daniel --

awhile back, there was a popular bumper sticker here (a often-used way for americans to speak their minds) seen on the vehicles of left-leaning 'peaceniks' (no derogation intended) which read: VISUALIZE WORLD PEACE !!!

" visual whirled peas" sounds to the ear exactly like 'visualize world peace,' but with quite another meaning: whirling something is to spin it around at a high rate of speed, so you could imagine (visualize) a green, mushy mess if you whirled peas, the garden vegetable.

so, its a fairly gentle, amusing jibe at the liberal impulse to express a desire for world peace.

it's one of those visual/auditory jokes that works better, i'm certain, if you've been exposed in sequence to the orginal and then it's parody.

[Dominique]

Charles,

About dictations, there are endless debates in order to know whether teachers should tell the children what they have made wrong (how to make progress if the child is not told about his mistakes) or tell the children what they have made right (in order to have them feel confident). But so many parents blame the teacher for the results of their loved “petites têtes blondes”….

This is the everlasting debate about being "knowledge centered" or "child centered". Are schools supposed to adapt to children, or are the children going to school in order to adapt to the reality?. Plenty of different teachers, plenty of different practices. But one specific thing that our English speakers living in France may have difficulties to accept is that the French language and orthography is a “reality” in France as much as “law of gravity”. This is since the edit de Villers Cotteret and has to do with the very identity of the country. French parents that went to French schools accept that and usually want even more stress on the language. Foreign parent’s often don’t. Sorry Charles….

Everybody describes the system as a rigid one and believes that every child faces the same practices and the same teacher in Strasbourg or Brest. This is wrong (if only…). The true problem is that this visible "rigidité" is in fact hiding the very (in-)famous "liberté pédagogique" that in fact protect every teacher from being criticized. Corporatism and ideology together.

I am not sure this “liberté pédagogique” is very good because it actually closes the door to critics. But Sarko wants more and not less, leading to even less control on what is going on in the classrooms. The system may be rigid, but the teachers are completely free. Paradox of a politically correct system that agrees with everyone, mixed with a typical hatred of the hierarchy by many teachers.

An other “philosophical” problem of French school is that it is supposed to encompass everything. Renouncing to something is considered as unfair because it would deprive poor students. The very purpose of school is now at stake because of that. What belongs to parents? What belongs to the school? I am very much disappointed when i can see that no one actually speaks the same language. No one attaches the same meaning to the word “education” and “instruction”. The usual idea about it is that education with no instruction leads to “military” society while instruction without education leads to individualism with no sens of belonging. The French society (as a all) no longer knows what it expects from school (knowledge only? Behaviour? Politesse? Esprit critique? Erudition? Epanouissement? Transmission de l’identité? Culture commune?). This sometimes leads to the idea that “the child knows what’s good for him” witch could be compared to the concept of “psychoanalysis” where every one is invited to identify it’s own “desire”. This is also linked to the raise of the “psychologie cognitive” used in teaching. This often transform the child into a “brain that you can command if you use the right button”. Everything is now described on an analytic point of view with a scientific pledge. Cognitivism can not be criticised as it is scientific! But being locked into it may lead to everlasting repetition of social position in the society. Bourdieu’s ideology did not help….

I strongly believe that being a teacher is based on human relationships. Teacher need to be “care giver” (la bienveillance in French). Too many new teachers hide behind a “psychologisation” of teaching in order to put a distance between them and the children. “Bienveillance” vanishes. This goes with the terrible “judiciarisation “ of relations between teacher and children and the global shift between generations we can see everywhere.

One big problem is also this deadly face to face between unions and politics. This everlasting theory about “not being able to work with less “moyen”” forbids both politicians and teachers to think. If the only way to do better is to get more money, then there is no way we can do better. Teachers need to accept the nation’s budget as a reality in order to start thinking, and not imagine they will be able to increase it indefinitely and avoid thinking. Once you know what you can, you can start doing it.

So much more to say….

[Mary Lucas]

Having had a surprisingly abusive French teacher of college French in the U.S., who made adults stand so that she could reprimand them and who chastised readily rather than encouraged, I would wonder if it's the whole system, or just the horrid teachers who need adjustment. I've heard this sort of thing is commonplace.

[Dominique]

D.Strohl,

You're wrong. School is not mandatory in France. Only "instruction" is.

You can't be perfect....

[Dominique]

Jorg,

"Tell them what they've done wrong".

well, how can a child know he's wrong if the teacher doesn't say? Should we let the children believe that 2+2=5??

[marine]

From my own experience, the French schools perform ok, as long as you adapt easily to the mainstream method. And if you get a bit lucky with the teachers you meet. That's how I became a total math disaster! But if you get easily along, you'll probably get quite knowledgable in this or that field.

On the whole (but not on the details;-)), I agree with the comments on trade-unions and a peculiar French mindset.
From my point of view, the main problem is institutional. You cannot manage so many people from a centralised minister with a heavy administration (teachers are far from being the only civil servants paid by the ministry). But this is an eternal French dilemma: how to give more autonomy to organisations and to preserve equality (of access to the civil service)?

Sarko's discourse sounds like a joke to me. This respect story does not take into account a larger move in society. We live in an extremely individualistic world, so each parent feels entitle to explain to teachers what they do wrong with their kids. And many of them don't show a bit of this respect they love in political discourses (perhaps I know way too many teachers, young and old).

Plus, I find the "work more to earn more" totally stupid. Some teachers don't work...but that can be an asset if you want to pile on hours of classes. Less you do outside of the classroom, more you can be in front of the classroom. Just have to do exactly the same thing year after year, but if one day I have a kid, that would not be my favorite type of teacher!

In the end, I went to French school, I never really learnt English (at school), I was a wreck in math because I needed more time and other methods than others to understand, I did lot of competitive sport with the school related association and I traveled quite a bit. And I guess that's the case of so many people: mixed results.

Azloon, to get into French universities or Grandes Ecoles you need the Bac or the Bac+an exam; so it does not matter if you had home schooling. You can always pass the Bac as a "candidat libre".

[Ros]

If you don't mind, Daniel, I think you should change your educational vocabulary a bit - what you say is true and quite understandable but in english you should translate what you call"public" into "state" and what you call "charter (which I admit to having never heard of -perhaps it's an american term?) into "private." I'm saying this so as not to get into a muddle with the "Public school system" in uk.

[Liza]

One of the oddest things about the French school system is the ideology behind it. Its main aim is to make a citizen out of each child, to impart knowledge and to integrate all children. As far as I can make out the main aim is not education.

I was educated in Ireland. We were considered as persons and education aimed at helping each one come to the fullness of his/her capacities, without reneging on the rigour.

In addition, French teachers receive no pedagogical training at all. They are simply experts on their subject and this explains the dullness of the classes.

I really regret having had my children follow the French school system.

[Valentin]

JOAN:
"He gives good corrections, they say. I wondered if this reaction was based on expectations related to regular school experiences--evidently it is."

No, it's simple: the first teacher looked superficial - not rigorous, not exigent enough. I once caught myself judging my piano teacher the same way.

[Valentin]

FRANK:
"Firstly teachers are said to be dominated by the influence of the permissive, authority challenging '60's, and yet they seem to be extremely authoritarian... Secondly, the ..traditions which came to the fore in the '60's were all about more child centred...Yet the French system seems to be incredibly inflexible and doctrinaire."

Frank, there's actually no contradiction, your reasoning is simply flawed for using 2 different scales.
Who says that, to make it short, the '60s rule? The French, mostly those over 50 yo (who came to know both methods).
Who says, here, that French school is too authoritarian? Anglophone newcomers who came here unaware of France's degree of exigence (themselves prob educated in the '60s style and embracing it, more or less consciously).

No wonder French school became too soft for the French, but is still too tough for americans. But I wouldn't expect my residence country to change its education standards and style too soon.

Doctrinaire, is not just the school, but the justice, and most other public services, from pure corporatism and defence of privileges.

[Nick Teal]

Not as simple an issue as it sounds. As a teacher for the past 12 years, in an international school but one following a British syllabus, I think Sarko is right in trying to fix the schools, but perhaps they are not quite as broken as it appears.
Yes, we need some theory and intellectual rigor - but this can be taken too far. Perhaps an extreme example, in my British-syllabus school which happens to be in the mountains in Europe, with British staff, when the Geographers teach about glaciers they take the whole class on a trip and go and look at/walk on/examine one. In the next nearest international school, with French syllabus and French staff, they examine glaciers on page 62 of the textbook......
I know that some in France think the Bac is getting easier but it can't yet have reached the level of GCSEs and A-Levels, some of which lack any intellectual input or challenge at all.
Yes, giving 0s for pointless dictes is not education - but then so are the comparitively worthless grades handed out like confetti for GCSES/A-Levels. Some of our students get large numbers of good grades - but can't write a paragraph of coherent English.
The unions may have managed to block change in France and that may account for aspects of the system being atrophied - but change occurs so often in the UK system that you have to admire any poor soul who works in it if they have managed to keep abreast of half the initiatives and reforms of the past 20 years - many of which seem to be cases of re-inventions of the wheel, or attempts by one party or another to seem different from their opponents.
The reality is that major change is needed - but the system does have some strengths. What Sarko needs to do is set up some group including all view points to try to find some agreed changes that can make a real impact - so that education and changing it every five minutes does not become a political football in the way it has in the UK.

[Ros]

"I know that some in France think the Bac is getting easier but it can't yet have reached the level of GCSEs and A-Levels, some of which lack any intellectual input or challenge at all"
Nick Teal, I see you are a teacher but all the same I don't think this remark is precisely right.
About 15 -20 years ago, there were only four different Bacs - A= literature (essential for pupils who wanted to get into a Cours préparatoire for Ecole normale sup or just do lan guages + literature at university, C = maths =(the "star" , preferably + latin & german (not english!), D= biologie + easier maths for those who couldn't make it to the "C" and B (economy etc) for were not sure of their choices .Ok that was simple enough.
But around 1993 (am no good at dates) the Baccalauréat Technologique was introduced with a choice also of ES, S and L. The essential difference being that to do this Bac you were pushed (literally by your Professors and often with objections from parents) into one of the new Lycées Techniques where you unfortunately lacked "any intellectual input or challenge at all".
QED: "the bac" has not got "easier" but there are now so many "bacs" that some of them are not worth anything at all.
I hope you understand what I'm trying to get across.

[christopher muir]

I have noticed that many French people seem to show a lack of interest in other countries. This may well be the result of the education system or simply a feeling that what happens elsewhere is of little importance. It's a trait that doesn't fit well into the era of globalisation.

[Sandrine]

"for example, the stupid tradition of dictés where some kids never get anything but zero."

It's not stupid at all ! We need them. I don't know how it is in your country, but in ours, spelling (l'orthographe) is very important.

Maybe you should have trained your child at home so that the dictés would be less a trauma for him. That's what my mom did with me and dictés were always such a challenging and interesting work to do, I just loved them ! It's quite easy, not like maths for example, you can really improve quickly !

I hate seeing young French people butchering the language when they try to write something !

Réhabilitons donc la dictée !!

[VisitorHK]

Charles, thanks for bringing up the education subject!

Azloon: Private schools in France are almost always catholic. These schools are not necessarily elitist. The education provided is often better than in the public sector but not always. In remote, rural areas, it might be inferior, in cities it is generally superior to the state system. Private schools follow the same curriculum as do public schools. They are not free. There are private schools that are ‘sous contrat’, i.e. they get state subsidies. School fees remain modest (and are fixed according to the parents' income, number of children…) – nothing compared with anything private in the US or with private schooling in Switzerland. There are private schools ‘hors contrat’ that have more freedom and tend to be expensive – but fees there are relatively modest, too. Parents are expected to get involved (change wallpapers, paint… on Saturdays). Those private schools may not be elitist, but parents are more active and participating members of the educational project, and teachers are more open-minded about these parents. Relationships tend to be based more on trust than in state schools. Private (catholic) schools all offer religious teaching to some extent but they accept also non-catholic students. I don’t know the history of this, but during some government a law was passed to allow for anyone to go to a private school. Otherwise, state subsidies would get suspended. - In those cases, there is still some general religious instruction, but no ‘catechese’ or compulsory mass attendance.

Teacher training is the same for private and state schools but there is one particular thing about it: If a teacher teaches at a state school, he may switch to a private school at any time. If however, a teacher teaches at a private school – from the beginning on, or starting later in his career, there is no way back into the state school. I have never heard an explanation to this, but I can imagine that a teacher who flirts with private schooling isn’t considered laique anymore. Private schools may accept teachers without any formal teacher training (native language teacher volunteers are welcome), state schools may not.

Daniel: I know a case of a missionary family with 6 children who have taught them at least for some years through home schooling. This is not as common as it is in the US but tutoring (programs) for home schooling is (are) excellent!!! This is true for the catholic ones especially. Rigour and discipline serve those programs very well. When I lived in the US, I learnt that the Mennonites (who are close to the Amish, but more open to modernity and progress) rely on catholic home schooling methods/programs for their young.

Maggy G.: “It is often the parents who are authoritarian about school.” – That is very true.

Azloon, Charles, Dominique: Is it really contradictory to talk about respect and calling for more positive attention on the individual student? – I don’t think so. Respect shouldn’t be a result of fear, and if it is not, both may go hand in hand. Ideally, the teacher will try to help the student develop to his full potential and the student will love and admire his teacher in return and thus respect him. – I also like the “discipline based on love of learning” (Frank Schnittiger). Well –
The reality is that teachers such as humans don’t change their attitudes that easily. I had mentioned on an earlier blog that the common method to teach reading, “la methode globale” has been abandoned (it was introduced when other countries had already abandoned it) in favour of the ancient “methode syllabique”. Teachers will probably continue to teach the old way which is actually a rather recent but unsuccessful way until their retirement, as they may do as they want. The law has been changed but there is no control. That is where the French school system lacks rigour…
PS: It is ironic and funny to read Sarkozy’s words knowing that as a pupil he was less successful than his brothers. His father favoured his brothers for that reason. Sarkozy struggled to find his father’s respect(et il a redouble sa 6eme).

Charles, Dominique: On the dictation … There appears to be a contradiction, too. I believe that the dictation is useful but why give grades? If you do dictations in order to reveal some weakness through mistakes, it should alert the teacher that he has failed so far to explain everything to everybody, and if there is a pupil who is dyslexic, so be it; he shouldn’t be judged on his mistakes. The problem is that there are dictations and grades but hardly any work on those mistakes. You could explain the old rules with the new mistakes, but there is 'no time' to do this. There is a dictation and a zero and a sad child, and that’s it.

Some teachers in general seem to mix categories as Valentin likes to express this. There is a student, a human being, a creature – and there is his learning capacity and there are results that he produces as a consequence of some input … Some will learn without a problem, others will have problems. Teachers are there to help solve problems, to help students to find the right approach to succeed. Teachers are not there to judge a person on his/her capacities/results. He may judge results, call a mistake a mistake. But he may not judge the person. Why does this girl produce a zero in her dictation? Because SHE is wrong in her ‘optique d’echec’?? No. This cannot be the answer to the problem. – The answer is that the teacher has so far not been successful enough to transmit some expected knowledge to this student. She, on the other hand, may have strengths in other fields of knowledge or would maybe love spelling and grammar if she wasn’t judged on it and could explore it in a more relaxed way.

What is that ‘optique d’echec’ anyway?? This girl knows she isn’t good at dictations. Will this change if she puts on other glasses? It is not a question of changing a point of view. The girl is intelligent enough to KNOW that she might fail yet again, get crushed again. If she was blind that would change that optic or if she switched off her hurt self-esteem. Students and adults with those ‘poker faces’ are the (only?) ones in France that succeed. This seems very Unfrench, but the rigorous school system and the teachers who do as they please are contradictory, too. The Unfrench is very French.

Valentin: I have waited to get back to you (since our discussion on the ‘jogging blog’). – I had been away and without regular internet connection for more than a month. That’s why.
We all do have our little “dada”. – It is my dada to find out who other people really are, and it is your wish not to reveal all about you. You thus spur my curiosity.
“Valentin on Joan: ‘I once caught myself judging my piano teacher the same way…’” – You went into a trap. You are a very intelligent person with excellent analysing skills but you reproached to me and others in other contexts that we were mixing categories, or ‘using two different scales’. You had also told me that I was judging things from my personal point of view (the French versus the American versus the German school systems). – The point is that categories sometimes do mix and there isn’t always something wrong with it. Nature isn’t just black and white; there are all sorts of colours and our human nature is very complex. This reproach about my judging others according to my own views is wrong. I have travelled a lot, been questioned and challenged so many times, been judged myself that I have developed my personal views but I do not judge other people. Upon ‘analysis’ I like some, others I like some less, I might withdraw, but I do not j u d g e others. I am not even judgemental with my own children. I might criticize their behaviour or yell at them, but I don’t judge them. This thing is very subtle but important.
I don’t feel hurt when you tell me that there is something wrong with my judgement. It is just that I feel that you ‘hide’ more than anybody else (which is in your right, of course!). You do this because you fear judgement. - Why do you fear judgement? - Because that is how you approach others… -

BTW: Teachers that excel never judge – to get back to that ‘optique d’echec’ statement.

John Gregory Flinn: “… incidentally it doesn’t seem to affect French prowess in this field (sports/games) later on.” – You are right. It is amazing how well many French still develop despite the shortcomings of their school system. This mystery can only be explained with culture (?) or talent (?). -

[azloon]

VisitorHK

excellent post, but don't agree about respect being based on fear.

this would mean that for everyone your respected, there would be an element of fear in this respect. not so at all, in my experience.

a person may respect someone they also fear but fear is not a precondition for this respect, imo.

[Maggie G]

Sandrine,

I am not critisizing a rigorous dicté. I am critisizing the way the system is designed to give zero after ten mistakes. It makes no difference if there are 50, 200, or 500 words in a dicté. If a child makes ten mistakes, he gets zero. Even if he has 490 words correct, the system tells him he is worth zero.

I did work with my son. He came home with about 28 mistakes in a dicté, so we really worked hard. The next week he was down to about 18 mistakes. We worked very hard. The following week he had eleven mistakes. All this work and improvement, and he was still getting zero.

This is crazy. This is no way to encourage a kid. After that I told him, "There's nothing wrong with you. The system is insane."

He is now in 4th year in medical school, but a lot of other kids give up along the way, discouraged by things like too many zeroes in dictés. I kept telling him the system was insane, and that helped to get him through. French parents in the same situation would be hysterical.

I already said all this last year, so I was very pleased to see Mr Bremner write, "I am tired of seeing the spirits of my bright 13-year-old crushed by joyless teachers who send her home with scores of zero in dictation."

I also said the system was designed for the bright students, and Mr Bremner wrote the same thing: "the rigorous French system does help the cleverest children shine." My older son got into Politechnique in 8th place, and got his PhD from MIT in June. He will be starting a good job in California on the first of October. Kids like him don't have trouble in school, but they are a small proportion of the total. The French system doesn't care enough about what happens to the less bright kids. I think it's a crime to discourage young boys by making them think they are worth zero.

[Valerie]

I used to teach in a CFA where young people living in an 'optique' of failure were parked to try to get them to finish a basic diploma, BEP, CAP, etc.

It was my first time giving grades at Xmastime and I was told to write comments for each student on documents that would be sent to the students' homes.

I was SHOCKED at some of the comments that my fellow teachers were writing.

I was writing about the postive side of each student and maybe mentioning one thing that was holding them back. The other teachers were insulting them, mocking them, you name it.

One example. One teacher wrote: 'Aurelien? Who's that? I can't give the name a face.'

Very productive. Needless to say, I didn't work long with people like that...

[Claudia]

French teachers have never been paid when on strike!
The post 68 ideology wanted teachers to be equal to their pupils...It still goes on !Pupils know and learn less than ever ,but maybe this is to respect their personality???
Teachers do not dare to give bad marks,as pupils are sensitive and could be "discouraged"....Diplomas are a due even if pupils do not work.
Do the British and the Americans do differently and have better citizens?

[Valentin]

"It is just that I feel that you ‘hide’ more than anybody else (which is in your right, of course!). You do this because you fear judgement."

Nonsense! Proof: I even gave out my age after several attacks from Sandrine La Curieuse !
On the other hand, I'm Valentin btw, Sandrine is Sandrine, and Terry has his full name, address and lawfirm website all over this blog. Who are YOU, Visitor? :)

[azloon]

"The French system doesn't care enough about what happens to the less bright kids" Maggie

Maggie, i prefer CB's term, 'clever.'

there IS a huge difference. i had two children who were, comparatively speaking, academic 'stars.' they "got" school straight away. no problems, other than the oldest being able to get good grades with practically no effort whatsoever (which is precisely the effort he expended). this a problem, incidentally ---allowing a clever student to 'skate' with no challenges.

my third son, mentioned previously on this blog, was immediately a problem in school, from the beginning. a slow reader, unable to sit still so somewhat disruptive in class, noisy (he still is), messy (not so much anymore), and penetratingly perceptive. occasionally, he would turn this perception toward his teachers, and tell them what he was thinking of them. i don't need to tell you that these instances did not end happily.

what i hated most about all this while it was happening was this: a child's 'job' is school to the extent that they are in school all day and are graded on their performance, so school becomes, unless the parent intervenes, a major measure of their worth. so much of these students' lives is spent doing something in which they perceive themselves to be failures.

interestingly, this son sought out a job at age 13, working in a hot dog restaurant, and was a very successful employee, and an eager learner of the ways of business. he KNEW he was good at this, and it acted as a nice counter-balance to school. so don't knock mcdonald's too hard (no more bulldozing please, france)....it may be the place for non-academic kids to feel good about themselves, and get paid at the same time.

i spent much time reinforcing the idea to my son that he was bright and capable, and that school was simply an obstacle in his path to success.

he has proven me correct. he studied inhumanly hard to get a B.A. from university, and now is a very talented and successful executive recruiter.

although we are focused on french schools, i think we are all probably talking about certain students (ourselves, our children) who are not able to thrive in certain rigid academic situations. those same french school students would likely struggle somewhat even in more enlightened circumstances.

so, Maggie telling her child "the system is insane" was the most wonderful thing she could have done as a parent --- looking out at the world her struggling child was confronting and offering an alternative view. only a parent could do that for a child of that age. bravo, maggie, i am giving you a "standing o."

p.s. my 'clever' children now ask my 'slow learner' for business and financial advice, and are somewhat envious at the level of financial security he as achieved at such a young age. happily, there is a measure of revenge for kid's who struggled in school -- i believe it is precisely this struggle which is at the heart many of our high achievers' success).

.

[VisitorHK]

Azloon, thanks.
I believe we agree on our views about "respect". I said "respect shouldn't be a result of fear." - It never is. I agree. According to the French mindset, though, fear is a prerequisite for respect. -
There is fear of disrespect in the first place. This really is a fearful and stressed society. The long summer break is required because everyone has to relearn trust in some familiar and friendly setting in order to be able to face the dangers of daily life again.

[Daniel Strohl]

Dominique,

Your post dated 5. Sept. 21.24

I like your post. Very clear and moderate.

"Teachers need to accept the nation’s budget as a reality in order to start thinking, and not imagine they will be able to increase it indefinitely and avoid thinking".

Perfectly true. But this should have been said since a long time by Mr. Aschieri and his union colleagues to their followers. But they didn't say that at all. May be they are starting to think now ...

Your post dated 5 Sept 21.35

"You're wrong. School is not mandatory in France. Only "instruction" is."

Aperçu !

"You can't be perfect...."

I am fully aware of this - my wife tells me rather often that I am not perfect ...

[Daniel Strohl]

Azloon,

Your post dated 5 Sept 21.02

"Visual whirled peas" -

Thanks for the explanation. I got it.
It is a peas of cake !

[VisitorHK]

Valentin,

so I went into a trap myself! - Thank you for the enlightenment...

I believe it is not always necessary to reveal everything about ourselves. This is part of the "game" but I will reveal all that is necessary to understand my views. I am in my thirties, have three sons and am married, have moved a lot. Is that a surprise though I haven't mentioned it explicitly? What is in a name? I chose VisitorHK because I had posted comments on a German Blog about France before where I ended as the only woman among men who called me 'Falbala'. (I am not blonde!)- The blog lacked substance though it was part of "the" intellectual weekly... I decided to visit this blog when I discovered it and might remain, time permitting... -

My point about "judgement" remains unchallenged, n'est-ce pas?

[Dominique]

VisitorHK,

"According to the French mindset, though, fear is a prerequisite for respect"

Where a hell did you get such a joke? what do you exactly call the "french mindset"? are we all genetically corrupted?

You sound like those people say "children are beaten in the UK public schools and they all turn gay because they never meet a girl before they are 18". Remember Edith Cresson, brilliant prime minister of ours...

Stereotypes sometimes damages the brain...

PS : if only they feared me!! ;=))

[Daniel Strohl]

Ros,

Your post dated 5 Sept 22.08

Of course, I don't mind - hereafter the necessary clarification :
"ecole publique" (French name) is run and paid for by the state - translation "state school" ?
"école privée" is as its name implies private. I used the term "charter" (instead of "private") since Azloon used it.

Ros, please help me with the following :
- what is GCSE ?
- what is A-Levels ?
- what is "Public school system" (compared to Ecole publique in France ) ?

Furthermore, what is "college" and does this word mean the same thing in the UK and in the US ?

Dominique,

Si j'ai encore écrit des c... ci-dessus, n'hésitez pas à les corriger. Merci.

[Frank Schnittger]

I have a friend who was very bright in School. He always got top grades, ended up getting a PHD and is now a college lecturer.

One day he was cycling to work when this big Mercedes pulled up and a guy rolled down the window and said hallo. My friend didn't recognise him at first but it turned out he was an old classmate who always did very badly in school. They exchanged pleasantries and the guy in the Merc gave him his business card saying they should meet up to catch up.

My friend had no intention of doing so, but was intrigued at how his classmate - a real dodo in class - could afford to drive around in a Merc. He did a little research and he discovered his classmate was now a very successful businessman.

Unable to contain his curiosity, he arranged to meet up for a drink. Finally he asked the question that was on his mind. How come his classmate had been so successful in business?

His classmate replied: "Well I have this product which I can make for 1 Euro and sell for 3 euros. You wouldn't believe how much money on a 3% mark-up!!!"

[rocket]

Visitor HK

Well spoken. When the world will finally understand that France is a "dirigiste" state in sheep's clothing we'll all be much better off

[azloon]

Visitor -- yes i misread the sentence. we do agree on that point as well. believing that respect=fear would have been totally inconsistent with you rest of your post.

[jopo]

The rigidity of the system is what is so depressing - not only for the pupils, but for the teachers who would actually like to try and change a few things. It is not possible to have lessons shorter than 55 minutes in France even though everyone agrees that the attention span of children is about 15-20 minutes. It would seem that it is impossible to reorganise the school year so that the summer holdiays are shorter, which would in turn enable the school days to be shorter. My 14 year old daughter this year starts lessons at 8 on Monday and finishes at quarter to six in the evening !
I have been teaching in the French education system since 1990. Over the years I have seen my colleagues get more and more depressed. I know of practically no-one who actually enjoys teaching. Some of them are overwhelmed by the pupils and can't manage them at all and get seriously depressed, but as soon as any sort of change is suggested everybody is up in arms whether they are in the unions or not. I tend to keep quiet in the staff room and not make my views known (all the more so as I was educated in an all girls private school in England). I also keep quiet about the fact that my third child is in a private school here in France. My two eldest children went through the whole of the state sector from maternelle to lycée, and even though they came out with their baccalaureat, it was such a struggle and neither of them enjoyed their schooling. I have very happy memories of my school years, not only friendships, but also some of the teachers and the wide variety of activities that were extra-curriculum - theatre, choirs, sports days .... There is nothing like that here in France. We have only been back in school for 3 days and already I can see the faces of some of my pupils who are not very good at school and who know that once again this school year is not going to do anything to help them feel better about themselves.

[Valentin]

"According to the French mindset, though, fear is a prerequisite for respect."

Again, I'm sorry, but what a nonsense!
There is good, sane, fear and there is bad, destructive fear. What's important, is the motivation and the consequence of those emotions.
Being stressed about good marks and so more motivated to work, more happy when you succeed and even more motivated to work harder when you fail.
All this victimizing nonsense about our pasteurised children raised in invisible bubbles, whose personality is so protected they think all is nice and rosy and everything is allowed, there's no need to overcome yourself and give your best, there's no such thing as duty. Hopefully they'll never have to do anything requiring self-sacrifice, for they've no idea what that is.
And these non-alcohol/non-smoking speeches with no attention payed to nuances or reality, exclusively motivated by a '68arde logic. Argh!

[Valentin]

"This reproach about my judging others according to my own views is wrong."

You do. Each and every time you're trying to find deep psychological causes to this or that reaction.
I don't know if this is a '68 thing too, or a woman thing, or you're just thinking too much, but it is judgemental. Who and what gives you the right to connect my "judging" lines to my "hiding" and infer that there is a character flaw behind it all, ie, I'm a judgemental person so I imagine others are as well. You don't even know me, I feel like saying, how dare you pass judgement on my character?

My "hiding" was a direct consequence of the reactions of some, such as those to Juliette's age, or you trying to bring my (ethnic?) origin in a discussion totally unrelated, as hidden motivation of some of my views.
Or my views are, I dare hope, rational, based on reflexion and life experience, and I'm fully prepared to "defend" them rationally and openly, because I made it a habit thinking things through before speaking out.
And there she comes, a mystery german (?) woman playing the seer and speaking about my "inner fears".

Apart this, you may have your own experience, this still doesn't make you an expert in France. France is a very complicated country, that very few foreigners manage to understand. Some end up in frustration, like Rocket, some think they "got it" and don't bother anymore.
For instance, someone said, why does French school go ideological instead of limiting to education. Well it is so simple, French school is actually called "l'Ecole Republicaine" and its higher purpose is to form brave citizens of the Republic, not just pass along maths and biology. It's also about shaping up characters, preparing them for adult life, not just "allowing the personality to develop".
Oh well. Funny, if not sad, to see so many anglosaxons whining amongst themselves about the faults of the French school...

[isobel]

Although I can appreciate the rigour of the French system, I'm really happy that I didn't have to suffer it as a child.I went to a good girls' grammar school and got a decent education.Most of the teachers did not see humiliating students as a reliable pedagogical method and for that I'm extremely grateful. Now that I spend quite a lot of time in France I see a lot of bright children who are suffering as a result of insensitive teachers and I can't believe that anyone is benefiting from this approach.Obviously not everything is rosy in the English education system, but having witnessed the French one I would never put any child of mine through it.

[Daniel Strohl]

Charles,

"I am tired of seeing the spirits of my bright 13-year-old crushed by joyless teachers who send her home with scores of zero in dictation".

May be there is a relatively simple and not time consuming way (for you) to help your daughter out of this mess.

If you have already tried to train her with dictations made through a PC, and if it didn't work, you may at once discard my post.

If not, may be it would be worth to read the post in order to try the following :
- the first thing to do could be to buy a CD with French dictations (adapted to the age) exercices. I have found an address trough Google , i.e www.generateur5.fr. There may be other brands, of course.

I have no idea if the(se) method(s) is/are good. But in any case, there are dictated texts on the CD, which could be used alternatively as follows by your daughter :

- the first step (for you, Charles) should be to disable the automatic correction feature which works in the background mode of almost any word processor ; many people are unaware of its existence and of its operating mode. I use Open Office Writer, but it is probably quite similar in WORD.

To get to this feature, one has to go to the menu « Outils », then to the feature « Auto Correction »; there, one finds a long list of words which are frequently mispelled – as for example « acalmie ». As soon as one types « acalmie », the programme corrects it to « accalmie » but this is very fast, so it is « transparent to the user », as the jargon goes.

The list of mispelled words can be disabled (there are various options). It is important to do that – otherwise your daughter may type mispellings, the PC would correct them, your daughter unaware of the correction would be happy, but not her teacher at school, since your daughter would write the same words with the initial mistakes.

Once this has been done, she could then type on the PC the first dictation from the CD (of course, the feature « Vérification orthographique » of the menu « Outils » being disabled).

After completion of the dictation (I would recommend to type only a short text at the beginning), one should then switch on the feature « Vérification orthographique » in the menu « Outils ». The programme would at once underline (generally in red) all mispelled words. Your daughter could then have a look at the various errors, and correct them with the programme's help (or with a dictionary), and then reiterate the process as often as needed or wished.

She could do all this alone, at her rythm, without being afraid to disturb anybody or to be submitted to the « intelligent » sarcasms of her teacher. Of course, it would take time to get results, but as La Fontaine would say, « patience et longueur de temps font plus que force et que rage ».

PS : may be some blog readers who do not speak and write French may think that the above procedure is quite complicated for a task as simple as spelling. This is true in English, whose orthography is simple and straightforward, but definitely not in French, whose orthography is very complex and often illogical (many rules but with many exceptions). Even educated people make (sometimes numerous) spelling errors in French. With grammar, it is even worse, "but this is another story".

[Valentin]

"His classmate replied: "Well I have this product which I can make for 1 Euro and sell for 3 euros. You wouldn't believe how much money on a 3% mark-up"

Yeah that's why we say life is s**tty. You sweat and struggle only to see another had idiot's luck, one good idea his whole (at first) miserable life - and that happens to be Microsoft. Darn! :)

Well I myself, by and large, ALL things considered, still prefer to be the lecturer - this btw might also give me the malitious joy of lecturing the idiot son of a billionnaire! :)

[VisitorHK]

Valentin,
I did get personal. So, I will continue. You’re very challenging (no judgement here, just an emotion).
And I must insist, I don’t judge your character. I analyse it – in order to understand your complex, intelligent views that are somehow disturbing for me personally.

What I said is no victimizing nonsense of the 68ths; this is not about protected personalities growing up in eggshells. To be precise: Our 14 year old mows our 2400 square meter down-hill lawn on his own. He gets up at 5h50 am in the morning to get ready for his train to Collège and gets back home at +/- 6 pm. He worked on his French and Maths via correspondence courses during the holidays. This child has been to seven different schools from kindergarten on – due to our moves. Since their elder brother was working hard, I had his younger brothers revise their French lessons as well. When we started this revision project, everybody was tense and full of fear…

[My 14 year old explained to me today, what teachers he feared most, who he feared less… - From what I experience here, fear and respect are closely related, at least for some teachers. Psychologically speaking, there is not much difference in the expression of a fearful child (serious, withdrawn) and a child feeling respect for someone. Primary education is different, but from Collège on, students are expected to be serious- and that is what I read in their faces: a serious expression out of fear or sadness or both.]

Day after day, the boys enjoyed their school work at home more and more. We discussed grammar during lunch and they got really INTERESTED. That is the best prerequisite for learning. One day our neighbour knocked on our door to tell us he was back home from the ocean. His son (7 years old) was at home. He had been punished, was not allowed to play with his Playstation… My youngest didn’t really understand the word “punished”, and asked wondering “Why?” – I realised that misbehaviour and punishment were no issue during this summer break. My other son looked at me and said: Look, he has been punished from his Playstation, and we do work for school and do not even have a Playstation! Well, he mentioned it – and 10 seconds later, his smiles were back, and all continued to enjoy those holidays that were packed with nice activities (of course not every day and every minute was packed with schooling…!!)

The boys have returned to school/Collège. They are highly motivated. They know their duty. But the week will come when there will be “compositions écrites”, “interrogations”… four to seven each day, and my Collège child will feel exhausted, unable to concentrate, - and unduly devalued by the results of his efforts.

Some Valentin will then have no word of sympathy and will talk about those virtues of the French system and on and on. What is it that is so mysterious about the French that no foreigner seems fit enough to understand after some, many, how many years? You once said that you had some background other? than French. You think you understand the system. There is no doubt, that you are successful and that you are proud because you work/ed hard enough, knew/know your duty and were/are clever enough to have made it in this system. Congratulations! - -

You could really shine, though, if you were able to teach us foreigners some of those mysteries that only the French can fathom.

PS: There are also anglosaxons on this blog who criticise their own system. -

[azloon]

[Funny, if not sad, to see so many anglosaxons whining amongst themselves about the faults of the French school..] Valentin

not all comments were of the whining variety if you care to look back. what strikes me most about your reaction to criticism is what seems like strong resistance to the idea of change. even without knowing first hand what being student in france is like, i sense that not all is well in this sphere. when unions gain disproportionate influence in ANYTHING, whatever 'anything' is, that's a problem. yes, a certain degree of all students' discomfort in school is attributable to the experience itself. that's universal. but france's system sounds like it needs some tweaking, if nothing more,

there have been a number of remarks about 'depressed' teachers, 'depressed,' snooty waiters in restaurants, 'depressed,' angry taxi drivers, and depression as a national character trait [see paris syndrome]. that makes me wonder if the troubles in the schools, if they exist, don't mirror the same issues as exist generally in france, in all areas of daily living. the behavior of some teachers described here is clearly angry behavior, and something not totally unexpected from untrained teachers in a rigid system that they feel completely powerless to influence.

if so, change will come slowly, as french society changes -- in ways it chooses to change, and not for the convenience, or edification, of us non-french.

[Ros]

Daniel,
GCSE stands for General Certificate of Secondary Education - I think pupils take it in what we call (or called in my day) the Fifth form. There are lots of subjects - quite general. Either one is satisfied with that & leaves school then or Afterwards in the VI form, you can take A levels (maybe you have to have a certain amount of GSCE's to do this - am not sure as have lived too long in France to remember) - these are much more specialised (about three or four subjects I think) & the student should have already decided on his future before choosing them.
The Public school system, I'm afraid is rather an english joke - there are quite a few good films about them which would explain better than I can - (sorry it's 1am & can't think of any now - will try tomorrow) - I'm sure you've heard of the schools, Eton, Winchester, Rugby, Harrow. They are elitist schools and now very very expensive - I'm afraid it's just a question of "class" - a most disagreeable word but it is quite untrue to say that uk is now a "classless" nation - I'm sure Charles thinks as I do. If a pupil hopes to get into Oxford or Cambridge university - he could just possibly get a grant but normally it would be difficult to pass the entrance exam without having been to one of these schools.
I've been rather long winded & should have first said that a PUBLIC school in uk is an elitist paying school whereas in France a State school is free and laic.But just to complicate things the French call their State schools "public" and the catholic schools (as someone said above) private!!!!!
As far as I know "college" doesn't mean anything in the uk school system -every uk UNIVERSITY is divided into colleges with odd names: Trinity, Girton etc. Sorry but don't know anything at all about US - you must ask Azloon !Well, I hope I've been clear enough.

[Peter Mason]

Joan/Candia,

Your accounts of certain French teachers reminded me of my own experience at the start of my secondary schooling. As used to be the norm in England( the situation seems to be worse now) foreign language tuition began at age eleven and in our case the lessons were in doldrum periods of the week. For the first term they were presented by an old duffer who was usually sidetracked into stories of his travels across 1930's and 1950's Europe after about 10 minutes. Then a young Belgian exchange teacher appeared whose teaching technique was to yell a phrase in rapid heavily accented french [bear in mind most of us had had about 8 weeks of desultory teaching] followed by a whack across the head with a hardback text book if the answer wasn't made instantly. The same question would then be bellowed rapidly and angrily and any failure to respond correctly and fluently immediately resulted in a near-concussing blow to the head with a french-English dictionary weighing about 5 kg. What may seem strange to those who escaped pre-80's English education is that most pupils didn't object to the violence per se as caning was the norm in nearly all schools then but to the 'arbitrary' nature of the punishment. A caning for a clear infraction was viewed as normal but blows to the head particularly for not responding quickly was just not playing fair. [Dominique; apart from the stereotyping Edith Cresson seems to have been poorly advised. Caning was normal in State schools as well and has been abandoned in all schools for a couple of decades now. Despite the previous story I agree with you on the stereotyping of 'the French' in some of these postings.]

Candia : as the father of a severely dyslexic daughter I can sympathise with your experience; much the same thing applied to her state schooling here, even down to the memorising nonsense. The local Public School kindly discussed possibilities with us but although the base fees were, just, achievable the 'extras' would have been too much. I suspect that all mass education systems have difficulty in dealing with any form of special needs. Glad to hear that the boarding school seems to be doing the business.

Daniel: I'll attempt to clarify the terms you mentioned although I can't claim particular expertise beyond parenthood on GCSEs.

GCSE: the base level qualification in England & wales. Examined at about age 16 and tied to the relatively new national curriculum [which is something of a political football].

A-levels: the next level of examination and intended as the selection exam for undergraduate degrees [basically students sit an nterim exam after one year of the A-level course then apply to Universities which then may offer the student a place on a degree course if they achieve certain grades in their final A-level exams]. These existed before the present curriculum structure although with exams only at the end of the two year course.

Public School 'system'. Strictly speaking it isn't a system. Public Schools are the major private schools in the UK although the term supposedly should only be used about those schools that belong to an organisation called the Headmasters Conference. The equivalent of Ecole publique is, as you suggested, 'state school'. If my rusty history degree serves me well, the term Public School came about because up to about the 14th century one could only obtain an education by either joining the church or in the household of a noble patron. From the 14th century onward schools were founded with cash endowments to educate boys [later girls as well] without the noble/Church career restriction, although I ought to add that many were founded by churchmen or for religious motives. As any one who could afford both the fees & having a son not earning could place them in such a school the schools were 'public' and the term stuck.

College can mean university, although 'uni' is the more common term, but often means an institution of Further/Higher education that isn't a University or school. Further education essentially is a-level or equivalent; higher education is University level but without it's own authority to grant degrees.

I hope that clarifies things a bit rather than clouding them even more.

[rocket]

Hi Valentin

Thanks for your most useful comments

"Oh well. Funny, if not sad, to see so many anglosaxons whining amongst themselves about the faults of the French school..."

From what I've been reading in the French newspapers recently, it seems as if members of your newly democratically elected government are whining about the faults of the French school also. In fact every time I pick up a French newspaper or turn on the French news, it seems that your government is in fact whining about just about every aspect of the whole French lifestyle and belief system and is going to make some much needed changes in just about every area.

"France is a very complicated country, that very few foreigners manage to understand"

VOMIT!

How many times have I heard that one. The mother of all excuses to explain why reform is so difficult here.

You are no more complicated than any other country. You like to make yourself out as complicated to justify your own "nombrilism"

Comments are welcome

[VisitorHK]

Dominique, "Where the hell..." -- There is no need to get upset.

Stereotypes do help to caricature, reveal a reality that may be true for many, not for all. This explains how you perceive something without much reflection. When you go to Alaska, you may say that the country is a very cold place to live, but some will come up and say that this is all wrong because their particular igloo is cozy and warm. I'd still say that it is cold in Alaska because I know Spain. If you're an Eskimo you might see things differently. I am German at the base, no matter how far I will travel. I know there are stereotypes or general perceptions about the Germans. When you come from you name it, you might say that the Germans are all so very organised and tidy, and I will come out in protest because I have a friend and ... who are disorganised. - Well, no, I won't say anything because I know that the overall idea may hold true, when you compare with that particular nation. This does not imply any judgement about the individual.
Respect is generated in different ways in different countries and according to different 'mindsets'. Germans will favour comradeship between teachers and pupils and trust. When I was a school kid, I never saw punishment as a tool that was used to teach respect. Teachers were sometimes ridiculed, laughed about, but they didn't take that personally. They didn't feel weakened by that disrespect, and in the end, we lost interest and felt respect. In France, I see teachers that "scare" children, and they won't dare to show disrespect out of fear. Of course, this does not apply to ALL French teachers, and in the same way, you will be able to find that needle in the haystack, ie the German teacher who will scare students... In Germany it is very unpopular among teachers if you are perceived as the scary one; in France, this appears to be less unpopular. -

[richard jones]

Up Rocket,

How right you are. France has two neighbours much more complicated than they are in the shape of the Belgian Federation and the ancient genuinely supranational confederation of Switzerland, funny how they manage reform and major reform too!
Belgium into a (I hope this is right) a 4-way federation of Wallonia, the Flemish part (not being rude, can't remember the correct term), Brussels/Bruxelles and the German-speaking part.
Switzerland with the national language issue in schools and les bilaterales with the EU.
Come off it France!You don't reform as Rocket says because of nombrilism , but a nombrilism engendered by your innate certainty that what you have is right and the best and need not change.
These factors generate national nombrilism, supranational deafness and globalist dyslexia and innumeracy.

[VisitorHK]

Rocket : To discuss change with some French can be tiring (sickening). You end in that discussion mode where you know that the opposite doesn’t seek a solution. He will only blather using commonplace phrases, become hair splitting with your choice of words to avoid having to agree with your criticism and to avoid having to admit some of his views might be wrong, need change.
We are not entitled to have our word on French private matters. French matters are always private. So be it. Yes, there will be change – but not through us. –
I wonder, though, why any French person shall be eager to discuss here. It might be explained through what you call “nombrilism”, some vain self-admiration through an English mirror. Mastering the English language will also help caring for this vanity that is so very French (“haute couture”…) among the fellow French.

Valentin: “You don’t know me.” (Valentin) – Don’t you think you make yourself known by what you say here, just like anybody else? Anyone who reveals his thoughts and emotions on this blog makes himself known to all the others. We don’t know each other’s faces and the expression of the eyes but to share thoughts is a lot !! Your soul will always speak through your eyes and words, - and your deeds and all the rest. The rest is less important. It will only reflect what your words reveal. Words are powerful and most revealing!
'In the beginning there was the word...'

[Frank Schnittger]

Valentine - my story was supposed to be a joke. The rich businessman didn't even know that making a product for one Euro and selling it for three represented a 300% mark-up and not a 3% mark-up as he had said.

The point of the story is that you often don't have to be very bright (in an academic sense) to make money - and many quite successful businessmen were utter failures in class. The most brilliant and successful manger I ever had left school at 14....

Daniel Strohl - I do something similar when writing on this blog because my eyesight and typing aren't great. I write a comment in typepad, copy and paste it into Word - which highlights typing, spelling, and grammatical errors - fix the mistakes and then re-copy into typepad and post. The method has the added benefit of maintaining a copy of the post in case typepad crashes or loses the comment - an all to common experience.

[rocket]

Azloon

"there have been a number of remarks about 'depressed' teachers, 'depressed,' snooty waiters in restaurants, 'depressed,' angry taxi drivers, and depression as a national character trait"

Here are a couple of articles about the existing state of the French mindset.

Sorry but you have to speak French for rue89

http://www.rue89.com/2007/08/31/pas-gaie-la-france-la-vision-dattali-pour-la-croissance

http://tinyurl.com/3yb8nw

Let me just take a minute to explain the mindset of Valentin as I see it.

I hope that Valentin will allow me to have my own opinion which may diverge from his. Valentin makes up a part of the population here in France who are so dead set sure that their ideas are correct that it is not acceptable that other people dare give an opposing opinion which in his opinion could be considered denigrating to France. In his opinion criticism = anti-French . However, these kind of people usually will wag their tail if you make a comment or two about what is wrong with your own country in order to offset the "derogatory" remarks" one has made about France.

They like to see France "caresser dans le sens du poil" Which basically means stroked the right way and are extremely adverse to use of direct strong language when expressing ones views. They prefer, themselves to use softer more ironic rhetorical language in order to get their point across usually engaging in word games that are totally not understandable to the common mortal non French (Hi Dominique). Use of strong language provides too much of a flashback to their own education which is highly criticism based and strives to impose submission. This is not only true in education but also in daily life as well. Go into a Post office in France and stand in line and you can feel and see how people behave like schoolchildren in front of authority. Even the person at the service window needs to have their own little kingdom This notion of sovereignty of territory in France is a serious problem that has to be dealt with ultimately in oder to bring about change.

Unfortunately, they are simply a product of their educational system and upbringing which is extremely critical in France and very carrot and stick. It is somewhat an offshoot of the late 19th century and early 20th century Eastern European rearing practices in which the children where highly criticized in order to keep them more obedient. There is an excellent book that I read several years ago written by a Swiss psychologist Alice Miller about violence and child rearing practices. Book was called "For your own Good"

http://tinyurl.com/2xfrek

One thing Valentin fails to recognize is that those of us who live in France and exercise an option to offer our criticism is because we find France such a fascinating place to live and we(at least I do) are hoping that some change will come about in different areas order to better the experience. We find France no better or worse than elsewhere. it is just the fact that that is where we are living at the moment. Unfortunately these people need to know that France is the most loved country in the world and will turn on you in a New York minute if you should dare express otherwise.

People like Valentin cannot accept criticism of France because they see in this criticism direct personal denial of themselves so in fact we gone full tilt (albeit simplified)from the education failure of education to really create an independent individual(pls don't tell me the French are independent)because of the the educational system creating an atmosphere conducive to fear through submission and the inability which a part of the population has to fathom that their is an alternative to the propaganda they have been fed about themselves since the end of the Second World War.

Other than that

WE LOVE YOU!

[rocket]

VisitorHK

I see you know France very well

[rocket]

Richard

Flemish Part = Flanders
Dutch: Vlaanderen

Hi CB, I know that I am totally off subject, but would be very interested to know how France and its citizens feel, what they think, and in general their perceptions about the Madeleine McCann's case ( if there`s coverage at all about this case in Fr) would it be possible that you bring us an analytical tableau, a different perspective from another country.

I cant seem to remember another case with so many words writen about and so little of value being said.

The story is intriguing, with different twist and turns, bordering in the absurd (not the least from some participants` behaviour and reactions ) the UK Media have kept (unsually) a very respectful distance and along the way it has forgoten to ask any hard-hitting questions, to be inquisitive and truthful, the info we get in UK is very one sided, syncopantic and at times puerile, as if it has been hypnotised by the McCann family.

I don`t know if I can ask for an article - made to order,lol- but I`m gonna ask anyhow. thnx in advance in you have the time to do it and looking forward to read y