France's favourite people

In what context would Britain's Queen Elizabeth rank just above Umberto Eco, the Italian novelist, but one spot below Dave, an ageing Dutch pop singer?

Give up ? The three landed midway in a list of France's 25 favourite Europeans. Number one was Ellen MacArthur, the British ocean sailor and 25th was Jose Manuel Barroso, the Portuguese president of the European Commission ("Who?", non-Europeans must be wondering).

This 2006 list is a good example of France's mania for opinion polls. The French do not go for American-style rankings, those unscientific, whimsical lists of such things as "the world's" (English-speaking) best jokes, worst sitcoms or things you must do before you reach 30. But they apply serious polling effort to sounding national opinion on just about everything.

One of the oldest fixtures of la sondomanie, as Gallic poll addiction is known, is a twice-yearly national survey of France's 50 favourite people.

Started in 1988 by the IFOP polling company for JDD, the main Sunday newspaper, this poll throws up a strange assortment of sports and showbiz stars, charity workers, politicians and television personalities.

The media report its six-monthly updates as serious news. The best-loved Frenchman in 1988 was Commander Jacques Cousteau, the late oceanographer.  Then, for many years the title was held by L'Abbé Pierre, a saintly homeless campaigner who died last January in his 90s. The all-round number one for much of the past six years has been Zinedine Zidane, the retired football star of head-butting fame. 

Zizou is top with men, the young and rightwing voters. Women prefer Mimie Mathy, a very small actress, while the over-60s go for Charles Aznavour, the 83-year-old singer-songwriter, and leftwingers prefer Noah. 

Respondents are asked to rank which 10 personalities "count most" for them or which they like the most. The changing list tells you something about national values [click here for the current 50, out last month]. It is reassuring because, despite talk of a homogenized world, few outside French-speaking countries will have heard of more than about 20 of the 50.  Zidane and Yannick Noah, the tennis-champion-turned-singer are famous abroad but how about number three, Nicolas Hulot?  He's a long-haired presenter of television programmes on nature and the environment.

Those who complain about French racism should note that non-Europeans hold the first two spots and four more in the top 50 -- Jamel Debbouze, a comedian, Thierry Henry, the footballer, Corneille, a young pop singer born in Rwanda, and Rachida Dati, Justice Minister and star of Nicolas Sarkozy's government. Her parents came from Morocco and Algeria. But gender equality is absent, with only 11 woman out of the 50.

Given that the poll measures a consensus of admiration and affection, it is not surprising that politicians rank low. For all his hyperactivity, the newly-elected and popular Sarkozy does not manage better than 25th, behind such illustrious figures as Jean-Pierre Pernaut, a lunch-time news presenter, at 16th, and Sophie Marceau, the actress at 18th. The head of state is, however, top politician, ahead of Bernard Kouchner, his leftist Foreign Minister, at 34th, and Ségolène Royal, the Socialist who has crashed from 23rd to 44th since she lost the presidential campaign.   

The poll also helps disabuse those who believe that the French have resisted celebrity culture and admire achievers in higher-brow or more serious fields such as the arts and sciences. In this league of sympathique guys and gals, you will find no major writers, no film directors, painters or even philosophers. And the absence of another profession is instructive. Among these mainly rich, successful and often powerful people, there is not one from the business world.

France's Top 10 (IFOP poll July 07]:

1 Zinedine Zidane (footballer)

2 Yannick Noah (singer, tennis player)

3 Nicolas Hulot (television host)

4) Mimie Mathie (television actress)

5 Michel Sardou (singer)

6 Sister Emmanuelle (charity worker)

7 Charles Aznavour (singer/composer)

8 Jamel Debbouze (actor/comedian)

9 Renaud (singer)

10 Franck Dubosc (comedian/actor)

=============

France's favourite 10 Europeans (Ifop poll May 06)

1 Ellen MacArthur (British yachtswoman)

2 Luciano Pavarotti (Italian opera singer)

3 Monica Bellucci (Italian actress)

4 Benoît Poelvoorde (Belgian actor)

5 Michael Schumacher (German racing driver) =

5 Adriana Karembeu (Slovak model)

7 Lech Walesa (Polish statesman)

8 Pedro Almodovar (Spanish film director)

9 Angela Merkel (German Chancellor) =

9 Pope Benedict XVI (German)

===

Comments

[azloon]

come on, CB, don't play with us. i want to know about "dave, the aging dutch pop singer." it sounds like a put on.

i'm not sure which blog item is more of a 'downer,' the gorby piece or this one. i see that young french kids have the type of flimsy-ass role models as their american counterparts. i think we can mark the end of substance, and beginning of celebrity culture, at least in france, as the year jacques cousteau last made the list (and even he was a publicity hound).

i don't know, maybe sister emanualle does nice things too, i'm not familiar with her. but i am almost certain we'll have a punk rock group, or a stripper, named after her before too long.

[Ade]

I like dave. He's very wholesome and appears to have cryogenically frozen hair. Not surprised to see Renaud in the french top ten. He's a leftwing singer who looks like he's been drinking some rough stuff for a very long time. He wrote a cynical 'anti-capitalist' song about "Madame Thatcher" Then he moved to London recently cos he was paying too much tax.

Very french.

[Daniel Strohl]

ADE,

He is one among many which one could define as follows :
"Il a le coeur à gauche et le portefeuille à droite" (His heart is on the left, his wallet on the right).
This is indeed very French, or at least typically "bobo" (bourgeois - bohêmes).

[Pierre]

Charles, to take a contrarian view, is there anything more scientific than the american passion for sports stats?

Alexis de Toqueville pointed out in De la Démocratie en Amérique that one of the things which fascinated him the most about Americans was their propensity to count and calculate everything.

Keep up the good work.

[Pierre]

The description of Zidane as a non-white bothers me a little. His skin is paler than mine. Couldn't you describe him as African?
[Yes, it's difficult to find the right description. Perhaps it's better to say non-European...CB]

[Maggie G]

Hey! I liked the picture of Dave when he was YOUNG!

Could we have it back, please?

[Maggie: Since I called him 'ageing', I thought we'd better show him now, not in 1972. Sorry. CB]

[Pierre]

Azloon, 5 out of the top 10 go well beyond celebrity culture. There's a kind of stickiness to stardom in France than you won't find in the States or in the UK. For example, Police's 'Message in a Bottle' played for months at the top of the French charts compared to 3 weeks in Britain (replaced on 20th October 1979 by 'Video killed the radio star'). I'd hear it on Europe 1 going to school every morning.

My favourite TV celebrity is Thierry Ardisson. He'd have Beyoncé on, then Djamel to talk about his latest film, then Rocket spouting off about some Robert Paxton conspiracy involving Marilyn Monroe and Maréchal Pétain, then David Gahan to talk about a Dépêche Mode reunion, and finish with a smashing 'blind test' where two teams guessed song artists of titles played by a dj. And all from 11pm to 2.30am on a Saturday night.

[Ros]

Why can't one call Zidane a "North-african" which is exactly what he is? About 20-30 years ago the people the French now call "arabes" were called like that. But I suppose this was because at that time all the other arabic countries were not so prominent?

[christopher muir]

Well, you have to give it to Aznavour and Belmondo - really great stayers. It was somewhat surprising to find the cool Catherine Deneuve absent from the list. Just a guess, but I suspect that Sarkozy's name will more than likely be struck off within the next year. It's a pity that Jacques Tati isn't around to debunk the excesses of celebrity culture. What a telling film that might have been!

[Edward Johns]

I think it must be time for me to revisit my optician, either that or modify my prejudices about supposed sexual behaviour within French society---I read "la sondomanie" as LA SODOMANIE.

[Ros]

It is quite interesting (for those who have the time that is) to go into the Journal de Dimanche site that Charles mentions when he says "[click here for the current 50, out last month]. If you click on each photo, their whole website will come up - some quite fun with videos etc and others much less so !

[azloon]

Christopher Muir -- jacques tati, yes !

yeah, i would have been greatly heartened to see his name on the list, even if he is an actor. 'mr. hulot's holiday' was one of the first french film's i saw as a child in chicago. it was so wonderous. all the time france was publically adoring jerry lewis, they had a much more subtle and wonderful clown in their midst. what's his place in france? does anyone under 40 know who he is?

[Tati is still widely admired and known to the young, mainly because of Les Vacances de Monsieur Hulot, which is a sort of national monument. He's had a bit of a revival lately with a reissue of some of his work. CB]

[Frank Schnittger]

"It is reassuring because, despite talk of a homogenized world, few outside French-speaking countries will have heard of more than about 20 of the 50. "

I'm not so sure it is all that reassuring, Charles. In the first place your figure of 20 is wildly optimistic. Most people outside France would have difficulty naming more than 6 famous French people, and many of the people they could name would be historic figures like De Gaulle, Monet, and Cousteau and sports people like Platini, Zindane and Henry who plied their trade outside France for the major part of their career.

You can applaud this as welcome news that the world is not as homogenised as we might think, but it is more likely to reflect the declining influence of France in the world.

Of course the figure would be higher in Francophone countries, and amongst the educated and Francophile denizens of this blog, but most of the 50 names mentioned have no profile whatsoever outside France (and perhaps neighbouring countries like Belgium).

Even famous French people like Johnny Hallyday or L'Abbé Pierre are almost unknown outside France except amongst people have a specialist interest in rock music or religion.

Perhaps this is the image deficit that France24 is trying to address, but it is scary to note how little most non-French speaking people know or care about France, despite the fact that France is one of the most popular tourist destinations in the world.

France is in relative decline in all the areas for which it used to be pre-eminent - wine (eclipsed by new world wines), food (eastern cuisine and American fast food) and culture (now totally dominated by the Anglophone world).

Perhaps French people have been too busy enjoying these for themselves rather than marketing them effectively abroad, but the sad reality is that in an increasingly globalised world, France and all things French are rapidly becoming a niche or specialist area of interest.

This marginalisation is particularly evident amongst the young outside France, who would not even be able to name some of the historic figures I mentioned. In support of this theory I conducted a scientific survey of my two daughters who are both highly intelligent and educated young women completing second and third level education respectively to a very high standard.

Unprompted, they could name only 4 French people (Napoleon Bonaparte, King Louis IV, Marie Antoinette, and Louis Pasteur). When I showed them the names and photographs of the 50 most admired French people on the internet they recognised only Zizou, Sarkozy, and Gérard Depardieu). They were unclear whether a number of fashion designers they could name were French or not. Their view was: “The English hate the French, but nobody else cares”

Before people start attacking the messenger, may I say that I take no pleasure in saying all of this, and that I would personally welcome greater French influence in the world. But France now comes across as old, out of date, arrogant and self absorbed to people outside France. There is a huge task ahead for French people if they want this to change.

[I take your point Frank. But naming famous French people is not the same as recognizing their names on a list -- though I accept that your daughter test is valid. Perhaps I was being optimistic, but I was trying to estimate the knowledge of Times readers and skimmed the list as a notional non-French expert. Clearly US readers would know far fewer -- and Ireland is already a bit of the way across the Atlantic. CB]

[azloon]

i looked at the list of top 50 and am curious about the fact that fully a third of them (17) are comedians or humorists.
[Azloon, I think you might be mistaken. Comédien means actor in French, not comedian. It's one of those faux amis with English. But you're right, there are also a lot of comiques and humoriste too. CB]

i would never have described the france i know as a "bundle of laughs." so why all the comedians?

are these folks salve for the national depression, or are french simply much funnier than the outside world (moi) imagines? the other possibility is that they call themselves comedians but really aren't very funny. just what IS considered funny in france?

would one of our french friends please give us an assessment of the present state of french humor? i would love to discover that the country has come to its senses and no longer considers jerry lewis to be hilarious.

[Azloon. I've been meaning to do a post on humorists because France is having a bit of a love affair with stand-up comedians at the moment. There are some excellent ones, Notably Gad Almaleh and Florence Foresti, in my opinion. I'll write about them soon. CB]

[Frank Schnittger]

"Clearly US readers would know far fewer -- and Ireland is already a bit of the way across the Atlantic. CB]"

My elder daughter is completing her degree in St. Andrew's!
[I was just joking Frank. My elder daughter is a US citizen, got her degree in New York and lives in Boston married to a Californian. But I forgot to mention something else. Your point of view is that of someone in the English-speaking world. I'd bet that people in Italy, Spain, Germany and much of the rest of western continental Europe are familiar with many more of these characters. And French singers, of which there are quite a few on the list, are also well known in Africa and Latin America. CB]

[Pierre]

I believe that Daniel provided us with an insight into French humour, albeit in an extreme, alsation vein.

Personally, my favourite is Antoine de Caunes, on Channel 4, mentioning the newsreader Alastair Burnett some years ago: "One day I will tell you what his name means in French and you will laugh a lot."

[Terry]

"Clearly US readers would know far fewer -- and Ireland is already a bit of the way across the Atlantic. CB"

Ouch! Actually, it's probably pretty true. Although now I am more familiar with some of these names thanks to this blog. [I'd like to be more familiar with Rachita Dati but don't tell my wife].

Where did Marcel Marceau fall on the old lists?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4Qx8_C1hMko

I am looking forward to the french stand up comedians post. Hopefully, I will be able to understand a bit of it with my pitiful french. Sadly, standup has petered here in the US. It's good to see it taking off somewhere else.

[azloon]

"Comédien means actor in French, not comedian. It's one of those faux amis with English." CB

oops. i believe my son who lived in france and took acting classes there corrected me once about the meaning of comedien. but i can't remember.

by doing something on french standups, CB, maybe you'll distract from my translation problems. no more excuses, i'm buying a french dictionary.

[Daniel Strohl]

Pierre,

You wrote "I believe that Daniel provided us with an insight into French humour, albeit in an extreme, alsatian vein".

Thanks for the compliment - I take it at first degree ... However, this evening, my beloved wife is apparently not overwhelmed by my humour. But she is not Alsatian ...

Azloon,

I understand that Jerry Lewis was not your favourite. Same for me ... and probably also for some other compatriots as well.

[Dominique]

Charles says regarding Zidane : "[Yes, it's difficult to find the right description. Perhaps it's better to say non-European...CB]"

But how can people from african origin (black or white) feel home in europe if medias & journalists call them "non european" for ever?

Charles,

can you let us know what allows you to say that Zidane, born in France, french national, most popular french man for years, former captain of the world champion french soccer team, is not european?

This is exactly what french arabs complain about : being called "non europeans".

[Frank Schnittger]

Azloon - try http://babelfish.altavista.com/
for online translations

[Dominique]

There are always two different ways of looking at things.

One can say that the fact that anglo - us people know few french people proves that the french are in decline or that what happens in France is not interresting (the decline theory of franck).

Other could say that it just proves that anlo americans are just too narrow minded to have a look at what happens outside the anglo saxon world.

One can say that the fact that non-anglo saxon (let's say french)people know a lot of anglo american people/artists proves that the anglo saxon world is interesting indeed.

Other could say that it just proves that non anlo americans (let say french) are just very open minded and have a look at what happens in the outside world.

And before Charles writes something about the so called "stand up", you need to be aware that this is just a new name (english name, how trendy!) to describe what humorist have been doing for decades (Raymond Devos, Guy Bedos, Coluche, ligues d'improvisation in the 80's, Fernand Raynaud in the 70s, Fernandel in the 60's...)

But in the bad self hatred french mood of those times, young people need to believe they make something new. As always, no adult dares saying that the world did exist before they were actually born.

These young...always believe they invent everything!

[azloon]

my beloved wife is apparently not overwhelmed by my humour. But she is not Alsatian ...Daniel

Daniel ...

would you share with the blog some examples of alsation humor? unless of course, it's a little like "american manners."

i'll try to "break the ice" (with a rather lame example).

q: how do you break an irishman's finger?

a: hit him in the nose.

i realize that most jokes don't translate well to the written word, especially bad ones. that's ok, do your best. btw, it will be the first alsation joke i have ever heard.

a silly american joke making the rounds:

a friend of mine rear-ended another car the other day. embarassed, he got out of his car and waited while the othe driver, a dwarf, approached him.

when the dwarf reached my friend, he put his hands on his hips, and looking up at him, said, "i'm not happy."

my friend said, "well, then, which one ARE you?"

:(

[Thomas V.]

As a rather young Frenchman, and trying not to loot Mr Bremner's coming post, I'd say many people here really like humoristes, or stand-up performers as you'd probably say in English.

They're basically everywhere in popular culture, especially among youngsters ; people rent dvds made from their shows, quote them all day long... They often turn into movie actors, with moreless success -both in terms of art and money.
i won't tell the whole story (where they come from and so on); I'll just say TV is basically earth these seeds are sewn in. And cinema's the place they mainly dream of.

They used to be famous in the younger generations only (12-25) but now everyone's trying to look as such (see the horrible pantacourt worn by mature men in the streets in hope of appearing younger), so they're being loved by the whole population - even sometimes the eldest, who have their own stars such as Laurent Gerra.
Still, they have incredible success among youth, who sometimes laugh for hours just by seeing a comical facial expression.

They don't use that many puns, they're more on impersonation. Which makes them the equivalent of old-times satirists, except that they're not driven by any philosophy like in 18th or 19th century : the best among them use good sense and intuition, and are somehow the more reliable barometer for the state of French society. The others are merely entertainers - but can be good fun though.

Hope this will have answered some of the questions non-french here could have had.
(non-french, non-french, how can anyone not be French?)

[rocket]

Just some early morning rambling

As seen in Le Figaro today

and I quote

À La Rochelle, l'ex-candidate à l'Élysée a souhaité refaire du parti un lieu d'"attraction".

Shouldn't that be

"parc d'attraction"

[Sandrine]

"my friend said, "well, then, which one ARE you?"

Wow, Azloon, it took me 10 minutes, but I finally got it !! lol

"I understand that Jerry Lewis was not your favourite. Same for me ..."

Same for me too Daniel, same for me !

Frank, I partially agree with what you said, but the truth also is that people (like in the US for example), don't care of what's going on outside their borders. I'd love to know how many famous English people (of today) American people know or even (for what they care about them) how many famous Canadians they know !

And it's not only the US, it's everywhere around the world, people don't care anymore. Finally I guess we're less and less open on the world, we know in France a lot of American celebrities (impossible to miss them on the news), but how many German ones ? How many Irish ones ? How many Mexicans ?

So when you say that the French are being too self-absorbed, I'm not sure we're the only concerned here...

Charles, since you're in a mood of talking today, (well it was yesterday ok ok), how many famous English people do you think the French might know if there was the same list in your country ? Not so many I'm sure !

[richard jones]

There is a wonderful Tati (not tatty) film about taking a car to a Motor Show. Anybody remember the title?

[Ros]

Sorry for what I said above about Zidane - I'd forgotten he was born in Marseille & have no idea when his parents arrived there from Algeria.

[Ros]

Richard Jones:
the film may have been titled "Trafic" made in the early 70's but not sure!

[Ros]

Sandrine:
in answer to your question to Charles (not me) , I bet most French people wouldn't recognise more than TEN names on an similar English list. I think I have seen such lists in the Expat Daily Telegraph but when - have quite forgotten .....

[terry]

Sandrine:

Americans know many famous british or at least their celebrities, athelete's and musicians. Elizabeth Hurley, Kate Beckinsale, countless English groups, Monty Python, Emma Thompson, The SPice Girls, John Gielgud. As for Canadiens, same thing. Especially, their hockey players. My team is the new jersey devils. Most are from Canada. Anyway, I think the reason is not narrowmindedness Dominique, but language. Few americans speak French. So, your music, movies and stand up doesnt have much of a chance. Culturally, we are obviously closer to England. The last foreign song that was popular here I think was Dar Kommisar. That was when I was in eight grade.

BTW: I saw a great french movie recently on tv-Ridicule.

[Dominique]

Terry,

Not being able to speek languages is part of "narrowmindedness".

The french are certainly not the best at it, but the native english are certainly the worst... Sorry.

The more your native language is spoken arround the world, the less you need to make an effort and the more narrowminded you are as a result.

pure logic

PS : your link between music and language is not obvious. Plenty of world music here eventhough we do not understand a single word of it!!

[Dominique]

Terry,

One good example of "narrowmindedness" if you look for one is Céline Dion.

I am sure you heard of her. But did you have the opportunity to listen to her french hits? i suppose not. maybe i am wrong.

Guess what? we listen both here : celine's french & english hits.

(please note : i am no fan!;-))

"The last foreign song that was popular here I think was Dar Kommisar" : well, that was 20 years ago! did you know that people still play music around the world? If that is not being narrowminded, i wonder what the word means...

[azloon]

Thomas V.

thanks for the snapshot of french standup. it's remarkably similar to our standup 'scene,' with successful pratitioners moving on to films and other venues. my favorites are the ones who can talk about quite ordinary situations in a wry, quirky way. my least favorites are the ones who use the most vulgar street language to cover up their lack of imagination. a few choice expletives are welcome (to accentuate a point). but the endless stream of profanity is really a cover-up. imo.

it is interesting to me that a former world class french athlete is now the country's most famous singer, yannick noah. i know of no example of a professional athelete in the u.s. (or anywhere for that matter) becoming a highly regarded entertainer.

either french standards are quite low for what's good singing and what's not, or noah is remarkably talented. perhaps the latter (never heard him sing), as his son, joaquim, is an incredibly talented, and relentlessly agressive, basketball player here. good genes. (sarkosy will love noah as a professional player, able to praise him as a "winner" as he did tony parker, someone france can use as another example to awaken the country from it's non-competitive slumber).

CB: ever thought of doing anything on the subject of french attitude toward WINNING. Gen. George Patton is probably the best example of american's near-pathological attitudes toward winning ("america loves winners, we hate losers."). i recall the coupe de monde which france won on its own soil, and thinking the country seemed a bit indifferent to its victory (compared to what i imagined would occur in other countries).

in the late 1960s, 70s, the u.s., inspired by 'hippie' example, attempted to temper its "win at all costs" mentality in childrens sports, other areas of life. reagan in the 80s stopped that brief episode, and we're back on track with our "winning isn't everything, it's the only thing" approach. it really does suit us better. pretending it isn't true doesn't work very well.

Sandrine -- "you go girl" !!! (re the joke)

[Sandrine]

Terry, I'm glad you know so many English people even if most of them had a carrier in the entire world I guess, (quoique, who the heck is John Gielgud !??? lol) and that you also know a few Canadians (I knew you would gimme some people from the sport world, but any artists other than Celine Dion ?)

Anyway, this does not totally contradict my theory, you're obviously the exception that proves the rule (l'exception qui confirme la règle, est-ce que la traduction est bonne Daniel et Valentin ?).

Face it Terry, we know you like travelling (abroad I mean), comparing to many of your fellow citizens, and finally you know, learn and see much more than them !

But don't take it personnally, I'm also aware that we're like that in France. I now know more American celebrities because when I hear a name on TV (or when a famous person dies), I go on the internet to check and see who s/he is or was. And it's only because I live in the country (otherwise, I wouldn't even know their existence), and God knows you have celebrities very loved here but who are unknown abroad.

ps : ok, I'm sure it's some sort of a joke (and I'm gonna make a fool of myself, again), but I need to know : what is TV Ridicule Terry ?

Ros, thanks for your answer, even if I'm not sure it would only be ten, but if you saw their list before, maybe you know better.

[Frank Schnittger]

I have a theory which might explain why people know so few people outside their own borders and areas of specialist interest.

It is that for millions of years our ancestors moved around in small extended family groupings or tribes made up of at most a few hundred people, and often perhaps less than a dozen. The earth was so sparsely populated that these groups only rarely came in contact with each other.

It is only in the last few thousand years of our evolution that cities emerged, and these too, were often made up of only a few thousand people. Although empires could span enormous areas they were "conquered" by roving armies who moved on leaving relatively small and disparate local populations which had little contact with each other. Really big populations made up of millions of people only emerged in recent centuries - which is a minute amount of time in evolutionary terms.

Thus our evolution has only equipped us to interact with others on a relatively small scale. Most of us only know a few hundred people in an intimate or personal way. Check the number of people in your address book. How many of the names there have you actually seen in the last year. Less than one hundred?

Nearly all other interpersonal transactions are impersonal, transient, and utilitarian. You don't tend to remember the name of the shopkeeper who served you unless you are a regular there.

Thus most people have a very limited frame of reference and number of people whose names they can remember - their families, relations, neighbours, work mates, class mates, and those who have excelled in the areas in which they have a specialist interest - sport, business, culture, TV.

Globalisation and the information age hasn't changed this all that much - people go into information overload and forget the names of older acquaintances as new ones are made.

So perhaps we shouldn’t be too surprised that there is relatively little overlap between the "heroes" of disparate communities. Charles is in the business of knowing lots of different people but most people live relatively constricted lives often populated by virtual people from the internet, TV soaps, and books. Marketing people use brand names, uniforms, logos, symbols and standardised service processes to lend a familiarity to environments in which one is actually a complete stranger.

So I take back some of what I said in my previous post - it is not at all surprising that there is so little overlap between the iconic figures of France and other countries. We watch different TV channels, follow different sports and teams, watch different films, read different books.

It is interesting that so many of the 50 people listed are involved in the media as actors, TV presenters and sports personalities. It is only through the mass media that we know them - or can know them.

Even blogs like this create their own virtual small communities where huge misunderstandings arise because people are coming from such different places. Are you guys for real or is there a computer program generating all these conversations?

[Sandrine]

"Are you guys for real or is there a computer program generating all these conversations?"

héhé, good question Frank !

Anyway, concerning knowing French celebrities, I'm glad you recognised it's not only a problem of the French being self-absorbed. And I totally agree with the rest of your comment.

[isobel]

In respone to Sandrine I think that the French would know a lot of British/English people.I'm always amazed when in Paris flicking through women's magazines how many pictures there are of British "celebrities"- I can't imagine what interest the French have in Kate Moss, Siena Miller, and Posh but they are certainly staples of Elle magazine. Add to that actors such as Kierra Kightley Kristen Scott Thomas, the Birkin mob, Charlotte Rampling Jaqueline Bisset.Sean Connery, all the young ones I don't know like Orlando Bloom and the Harry Potter actos.JK Rowling,Tony Blair, Margaret Thatcher the Beatles , Rolling Stones,Elton John, Pink Floyd and countless other musicians and groups.
Personally I find a lot to enjoy in French culture but that's because I've spent time there and speak the language reasonably well. Unfortunately most British people are unable to spare the time to do this.

[isobel]

In answer to Sandrine's latest post - I presume Terry was talking about the French film Ridicule - it came out some years ago and I saw it here in London.Had Fanny Ardant in it if I remember rightly

[Sandrine]

"i recall the coupe de monde which france won on its own soil, and thinking the country seemed a bit indifferent to its victory"

Are you kidding ? The whole country went WILD after this victory !! It was absolutely enormous, didn't you watch your tv after the game ?

Virtually EVERYBODY was in the streets in France (more than 1 million people on the Champs Elysées), dancing and crying ! Oh God, I'll never forget July 12th 1998 !! You can ask anybody, we all know where we were that particular day !

I bought the DVD on this World Cup and each time I watch the final against Brazil, I have tears in the eyes remembering this crazy night !

And the 14th of July which followed was the best ever (I was on the Champs Elysées) and when some militaries put the French flag on their vehicules and waved with "footix" (the Cup's mascot), the crowd was cheering !

I don't know where you saw that the French were indifferent to their greatest victory !

"Sandrine -- "you go girl" !!! "

Thanks, and I'm proud to say that I've finally understood the joke about the Irish 15 minutes later ! ;o)

[Ros]

Azloon:
Noah is not a "remarkably talented singer" - he WAS a remarkably talented tennis player - as such, in France anyhow, one becomes "remarkably talented" in whatever sphere one chooses!

[terry]

Dominique:

As usual, not much thought put into your idea. Yes, the answer must be because everyone in the U.S. is narrow minded. The nonsense you drivel sometimes.

People in europe learn other languages because they are in such close proximity to other countries that speak another language. The U.S is about 3000 miles wide with two oceans on each side. There is no practical reason to learn another language. Those who live closer to the canadien and mexican borders tend to learn more Spanish and French.

Many people in the world have to learn English now (like you) because we are the dominant world power. Like it or not. When Japan was doing very well in the eighties, Americans were rushing to learn Japanese. Many are learning Spanish because we have a large latin population. But there is no great reason to rush out and learn French unless you want to be a diplomat.

So, people prefer to watch movies or listen to music in their own language. It's not because they are narrow minded.

[Ros]

Sandrine:
You say "(quoique, who the heck is John Gielgud !??? lol)" - you must be young not to know him. I should say he was not far off being the equivalent of Laurence Olivier - here are two very very (perhaps too much so?) english films he made - "The Shooting Party" and "Chariots of Fire" - but you must see them in V.O.

[terry]

Sandrine:

Yes, I know a lot of English celebrities. My point is that I am familiar with them because they speak English. That's why americans know english celebrities more than French. Celine Dione. Yes, of course, I had heard of her. But her biggest hits in the U.S. are in english, not french. The "english" canadiens, Anne Murray, Bryan Adams, are more popular here because they sing in English. I think Frank agrees with me. It's cultural. I agree with CB. Europeans know each other's celebrities more. But that is also because your in such closer proximity.

Ridicule is a movie from 1996. It's very good. In subtitles for us americans.

http://www.movieweb.com/movies/film/82/1582/summary.php

BTW: John Geilgud is the pompous english butler in the comedy "Arthur".

BTW: I didn't mention Selena either or my favorite Thalia.

[Ros]

Frank says:" Are you guys for real or is there a computer program generating all these conversations"? Well, I for one am real & probably everyone else is too! But what I find really extraordinary is the fact that we Bloggers really DO come from everywhere in the world.
I first thought that "The Times" being the paper I always read in uk and Paris would have the same readers Online - of course I was quite wrong and so be it !

[marine]

Franck, you wrote:
"Perhaps French people have been too busy enjoying these for themselves rather than marketing them effectively abroad, but the sad reality is that in an increasingly globalised world, France and all things French are rapidly becoming a niche or specialist area of interest."

What I don't understand is why you think it is a sad thing. "Marketing our celebrities"?!! Why? To belong to this mindset which tends to confuse fame and talent?
Those days, young rich american girls are famous for no reason at all, except a weird and freaky combination of money, media and voyeurisme (could someone provide a translation for this word? thxs).
Perhaps that those days it's better to not belong to the league.

Non english speaking europeans are used to this phenomenon: we know (a bit or a lot, depending on people) about anglo saxon stars, but anglo saxon societies know little about our own vedettes. I see it as an asset, it's almost like having easy access to two cultures.

Azloon, Sarkozy does not stand a chance with Noah. The guy is known for his dislike of the president. As a singer is ok, but I think that what exists between Noah and the French is more on the emotional side, he just charms us.
And if Noah follows the trend and decides to become part of Sarko's team, I think I'll really consider moving somewhere else and getting another nationality!

[Sandrine]

OK. First Isobel (Terry and Ros too), thanks for "Ridicule", of course I know this movie, but I read TV ridicule, that's why I "ridiculed" me (again).

Anyway, I have to admit (confess ?) one thing : I hate French movies ! I never never watch them. Ok, never is a bit strong, but I find most of them so annoying (I often fall asleep in the middle), and sooo "french" that I can't bear them.

I'm always amazed when I meet foreign people who absolutely looove the french cinema. I never know what to say to them. So yeah, I'm French, but I'm completely ignorant of my own cinema. Shame on me ! ;o)

Concerning John G., I'm young it's true, maybe that's why I don't know him (phew, for this one I have a good excuse lol).

Isobel, it's true that I know all the people you mentioned but one cannot be sure that they would be in the list of 50. People tend to put celebrities they like first and Kate Moss or Sienne Miller might not be the preferred ones. It could be your TV journalists or anchors, and we French, don't know them at all. It could also be politicians, and except Blair and Brown, we also don't really know them.

Terry, I totally agree with what you said about the language, it makes sense actually. It's the same for the "french-speaking" countries I guess.

"BTW: I didn't mention Selena either or my favorite Thalia"

Héhé, that's our Terry ! Thalia is gorgeous, you have pretty good standards ! (And Selena is the one who died young, if I remember well...)

[Dominique]

Terry,

Please read again. I did not write "they don't speak languages because they are narrowminded" but "they don't speak languages and that leeds to narrowmindedness".

Everybody knows that speaking different languages opens the mind. That's universal. Different languages show different ways of thinking.

Sorry you don't get such simple ideas....

[azloon]

Sandrine --

you 'please me no end' with your attention to my jokes. there's nothing better (ok, something) than having others laugh at my lame attempts at humor.

about the world cup: i really didn't say what i was trying to say. of course, there were wild celebrations in the immediate aftermath of france's victory. but, the french seemed a bit surprised to be in the championship game in the first place, and a little nonchalant approaching the time of the cup even tho they were hosting. my son was working for a french media company in paris which acted as liason to u.s. tv networks during the coupe and i was talking to him on the phone occasionally. perhaps, i was 'reading' this all wrong.

the french may be more "stealthily" competitive than they appear, not so obvious about their desire to win. maybe that's what sarkozy was getting at when he was trying to reinforce this idea as french as winners. from my vantage point, the french appear not to wear their competitiveness 'on their sleeves' the way americans do. it's almost as though for french it isn't "cool" to appear too competitive.

i get the sense sarkozy wants you to wear it more 'on your sleeve' (or perhaps a NYPD t-shirt would do).

:)

[richard jones]

To Ros - Vielen Danke I remember now