Fixing French universities

 

One of the mistaken beliefs that foreigners hold about France is that its education is excellent. The legend does apply in certain areas such as the grandes écoles, the specialised colleges which train the elite five percent of higher education students. But France does a relatively mediocre job teaching its children and a poor one when they reach the higher level.

That's why parents of future college students -- including me --  are cheering this week. President Sarkozy has just brokered a deal which appears to have cleared the way to reforming the mess of the French university system. Yes super-Sarko has pulled off yet another coup but he has also benefited from timing.

For decades, governments have caved in to resistance from students and teachers whenever they have tried to repair a system from which over 40 percent of students drop out with no qualification.

When Sarkozy announced his plan for immediate reform, the students and their leftwing teachers threatened as usual to take to the barricades. But they gave way on Wednesday without a fight -- for the moment -- after a few government concessions. The reason is that just about everyone agrees that the scandal has to be fixed. The reform includes more funding but its key is a law to let France's 85 universities run themselves rather than following orders from Paris  (The French education ministry, incidentally, employs an astounding 1.1 million teachers and other civil servants).

This will allow colleges to compete, recruit their own staff, design their courses, manage their finances, and seek partnerships with business. To the horror of the traditionalists, it might eventually lead to the selection of students and some kind of tuition fees. This would end the free-for-all entry for anyone with the right baccalauréat, the school-leaving examination.

If this sounds exaggerated, here's an outline. The universities have been neglected for decades in favour of the lavishly funded grandes écoles. The most famous are the Paris Political Sciences (Sciences-Po) institute, the Ecole Polytechnique, the great academy for engineers and the Ecole Nationale de l'Administration, the nursery for the highest fonctionnaires and future captains of industry. These establishments groom the brightest, most ambitious -- and socially privileged --  of each generation to run business, industry, the state and the media.

Parents yearn for their offspring to win one of the coveted few places in such colleges rather than see them relegated to the decrepit, under-funded facultés, as universities are known. The appalling drop-out rate reflects the neglect of students by teachers who are overwhelmed by their numbers. This applies to such supposedly prestigious establishments as the Sorbonne section of Paris university.

The Sorbonne's president, Jean-Robert Pitte, is one of the most outspoken critics of the egalitarian free and open-to-everyone system. "It is a miracle that France is still the world's fifth largest (economic) power, closely tailed by China, considering its weak investment in higher education," he wrote last year. French higher education scores low in world rankings. The best university, Paris-VI, holds 45th place in the Shanghai Jiao Tong University list. Only three are in top 200.

Libération, the leftwing newspaper that was founded by Maoists in the 1968 student revolt, acknowledged this week that the time had come for serious reform. The universities are in such run-down state that "some academics are ashamed to show foreign colleagues around their premises," it said. 

The university presidents are mostly in favour of Sarkozy's scheme. Some are disappointed that he dropped a plan to require selection rather than automatic entry to masters' degree programmes. Sarkozy, it should be noted, is the product of a Paris university law faculty and not a grande école, unlike most recent prime ministers and three of the last four presidents.

There will still be resistance from hardline students and teachers who see the reform as the "Americanisation" of French education. Jean Fabri, Secretary-General of Snesup-FSU, a lecturers' union explained: "They want to impose on us an anti-democratic system that will confiscate from the university world the values of collegiality and equality...The Government wants to set the universities in competition among themselves while relinquishing its responsibilities. It's an aberrant and dangerous vision."
 
Sarkozy wants to avoid a student revolt of the kind that have brought down governments so he gave way on some points this week. The main unions have given wary assent.

Like most parents with children in French schools, I hope that my two teenagers can pull off the feat of getting into a grande école. This requires two years of study for the entrance competition after completing the lycée, or high school. The chances are not good. It would be nice to think that the university lternative might in the future not be so bleak as it is now.

Comments

[jorgandersen]

You're right about mediocre. French kids do poorly on the OECD rankings, though I know they claim that they are biased towards "Anglo-saxon" criteria. But French schools still teach their children how to be articulate, like German schools.

[Monika]

The main problem will remain:
a parallel higher education system forming the "elite" that will continue to monopolize the best jobs (with the help of the social network of "les anciens élèves") and the notorious underfunding of universities.

Though selection is imho a necessary thing in order to revalue the university degree it will require a parallel effort to offer a place in society for those who fail to get into.

Last but not least I think it is absolutely necessary to change mentality. As far as I got a grasp of French mentality the degree and in consequence the job is probably more relevant to one's social position and somewhat like a status symbol than in for instance Germany where you can compensate with a big car for a lack of degree ;)
This thinking gives those with no academic degree jobs a social status that is not really socially recognized and therefore completely unattractive. Not a nice perspective for those who fail.

[Valentin]

"French kids do poorly on the OECD rankings"

It seemed to me the truly weak spot in the French education system were the universities. The "Grandes Ecoles" are quite competitive and well off, and I think the secondary schools (lycées, collèges) are not so bad either (save certain ghettoized areas).
The money spent in average for a college student was consistently more than that for a university one - an anomaly rarely seen elsewhere in Europe.

[thinknoworpaylater]

Charles - though I agree with your general point of view about universities in France there will be a number of consequences that flow from Sarko's "reforms". Let's divide your post into three parts
1. students are not neglected by teachers. The drop-out rate reflects the lack of selection. Unlike the UK there are no A-level grades, just the Bac. In fact those students who complete two years get an intermediate qualification, the DEUG (equivalent to the HND as used to be in the UK).
Tuition fees, as you know, exist in the UK, but only since Tony Blair took over. Once you have introduced them they can only go up and up as is happening in England and Wales. In Scotland this process has been partly reversed so that further increases have been blocked. Charles, it is currently estimated that students who borrow for fees and financial support in the UK will end up owing an average 30,000 pounds (45,000 euros) after completing). Students from rich families will not havr to borrow. So, Charles, no doubt your kids will be OK if they introduce fees in France- but be warned, there will be resistance. And by the way, shouldn't you have said that the two years of post-lycee prep for the entrance exam to ENA are expencsive and not available to all? You are a player too, you know. Anyway, the costs are notoriously socially devisive as we're now founding out in the UK.

2.Making the universities "independent" won't mean the withdrawal of existing government funds but that fee income becomes the only way to increase revenues. That puts enormous pressures on institutions, not all of them positive. It will certainly lead to institutional-specific (or even personal) staff contracts rather than national arrangements negotiated collectively. The consequences for university lecturers are pretty depressing, I can tell you.
Let's not forget researchers in universities. In today's Figaro it was reported that their organisation has deep concerns about the funding (currently centralised) of research. in fact, this is not an Americanisation of the system. Its nearest model is the UK. Unfortunately for Sarko, he hasn't prepared the ground in advance. In the UK the government established a quality assessment system that made government funding directly linked to research quality (as well as quality of teaching). Under financial pressure universities end up making sacrifices. Luxuries tend to be less important or have to generate income (via business) which has its own distorting effect.

3.It's all very reminiscent of the Thatcher/Major era. The consequences appear over a period of time like a serious disease. there is already a shift in the demographic distribution of student entry to UK universities. Some kinds of research that can get sponsorship from commerce will do better - but this is just universal Utilitarianism. Research activities that make no profits (Classical Studies, Fine Art)will suffer, though not because of an inherent lack of value.

[azloon]

why am i not surprised to read that french universities are all screwed up?

the idea that there are no entrance requirements for master's degree programs seems aburd.

this is egalitarianism run amuk.

anyone can attend university in the u.s., regardless of financial means, if they are intent and hard working. but it is not handed to anyone.

free education here, requiring little or no effort on the part of the student ends with high school graduation. it is compulsory through age 16, optional after that.

it sounds as tho france could use a little 'americanization' of its university system. btw, what in the world is wrong with competition??

go get 'em, sarko.

p.s. saw "live free or die hard" with bruce willis last night but only after initially resisting theinvitation of my friend. it's plot is absurdly complicated and non-sensical, with lots of computers whirring, guns blazing, cars and planes crashing, and elevated expressways collapsing. in other words, a mildly exagerated version of american life today.

willis, however, provides what redemption we find in the movie as well as the special effects, which are startling.

what really caught my attention is that the gun toting factotums of the the murderous conspiracy to destroy the u.s. speak ...now hold your breath ...FRENCH!!!! (somehow they speak french to their superiors -- subtitled -- and the superiors answer in english which seemed a little weird).

this really points out, i think, the chilling of relations between the us. and france post 9-11 when this script was being written. most villians of this sort in past movies have been portrayed as russians or the like.

BUT NOW THEY ARE FRENCH --- OH MY GOD.

let's hope the new sarkosy-induced detente will get us back to having villians we can truly hate. somehow french assassians really don't 'do it' for me.

(i would be interested to know if these guys in the movie are speaking french-canadian since it didn't sound parisian to me. if it turns out these characters are supposed to be canadian -- THAT will really 'take the cake.' i mean, afterall, if the canadians are our enemies, who in the world are are friends??)

[Ros]

"Like most parents with children in French schools, I hope that my two teenagers can pull off the feat of getting into a grande école" , I think saying "like most parents" is rather a sweeping statement & more than unrealistic - at least 80% of the so-called "noble" professions do not require entrance to a Grande Ecole (medecine, law, teaching in a Lycée (not a University professor)(& anyhow you left out Ecole Normale -Sup( very important for the Arts). I have never heard of the Shanghai Jiao Tong University list and wonder with which criteria it (or Charles as the phrase is a bit ambiguous) places Paris VI (Jussieu)- be it mainly for maths & science students)at the top of all Paris Universities?

[john]

There is no such thing as a "Sorbonne University", Mr. Bremner, and Mr. Jean-Robert Pitte is certainly not the "Sorbonne president". Frankly you could have done a bit more of research before writing this article. Note that I've read other articles in The Times where Mr. Jean-Robert Pitte is also presented as the "Sorbonne president".

In fact the Sorbonne is just a building, located in the heart of the Latin Quarter. This building is shared by three separate universities. These universities are:
- Université Paris 1 (aka Panthéon-Sorbonne)
- Université Paris 3 (aka Sorbonne Nouvelle)
- Université Paris 4 (aka Paris Sorbonne)

Mr. Pierre-Yves Henin is the president of Paris 1, while Mr. Bernard Bosredon is the president of Paris 3 and Mr. Jean-Robert Pitte is the president of Paris 4. Probably Mr. Henin and Mr. Bosredon would be quite apoplectic if they knew that you present Mr. Pitte as THE "Sorbonne president".

Last but not least, because things are always complicated with French administration, the actual person managing the Sorbonne building is neither Mr. Henin, nor Mr. Bosredon, nor Mr. Pitte. The person in charge of the Sorbonne building is the vice-chancellor of the Paris universities (note the plural), Mr. Pierre Grégory.

When the Paris University was splint into several independent universities in the beginning of the 1970s, it was decided to keep a unified chancellery to manage all the prestigious buildings of the Paris University. The new independent universities share these buildings, but they don't have responsibility over them. The vice-chancellor offices are in the prestigious northern aisle of the Sorbonne building, the so-called "Chancellerie des Universités de Paris". If you are an important visitor at the Sorbonne you're most likely to be welcomed by the vice-chancellor at the Chancellerie.

Here you can see a picture of the vice-chancellor Pierre Grégory wearing the traditional gown of the Paris University at a ceremony:
http://www.sorbonne.fr/document146.html

So as you see, Mr. Jean-Robert is definitely not the "Sorbonne president". Furthermore, note that when the University of Paris was split in the early 1970s, it is the University Paris 1 which inherited the most prestigious departments and faculties. Of the three universities sharing the Sorbonne building, Paris 1 is by far the most prestigious and also the largest. In fact it is said that Paris 1 is the largest university in Europe. Checking on their website I see they have a whopping 38,400 students, 17% of whom are foreign students (that's the same percentage of foreign students as at Stanford for the records). The president of Paris 1 is Mr. Pierre-Yves Henin as I already said above.

Hope that clears things. Hopefully The Times will stop presenting Mr. Jean-Robert Pitte as THE "Sorbonne president".

[Robert Marchenoir]

Gérard Aschieri, the leader of the FSU, one of the largest teacher's unions, went on the record on le Monde.fr saying he opposed the "philosophy of the reform" because it might entice universities to try and get a better ranking in the Shangai list.

I repeat. This is official: the leader of a major teacher's union has just said he is very worried because we might get better universities.

The audio interview is here (in French):
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/panorama/0,11-0@2-3224,32-928899@51-917472,0.html

I bet this Orwellian declaration will go completely unnoticed, contrary to the media shrieks we got after Devedjian casually referred to a rival female politician as a "bitch" in a conversation he thought was private but was aired on the Internet.

Good luck with your children, Charles.

[Donald]

Charles' article refers to the ranking of universities around the world
by a group in China (http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/ARWU2005TOP500list.htm)
Out of the top 50, 40 are in the U.S. The only French institution
in the top 50 is Univ Paris 06 at #46.

Ah ... that hateful "Americanization" that the Europeans love to refer to with such superiority and disdain. Take a look at the Nobel prizes in all fields for the past 50 years and see which country is head and shoulders above the rest. Socialism has reaped its rewards.

Charles, no matter what changes are made now under Sarkozy (and he has compromised some of the needed changes, as you note) it will take years and years to undo the damage of the last 40 years. Many more years, I am afraid, than your teenagers can afford to wait for a decent education.

[Monika]

In the first 3 episodes of the Die Hard sequel they all spoke German ;)
But it's true: in American movies the choice of origine of the vilain is rather limited. He is either:
British
French
Russian
German
or Arab (even bevor 9/11)

I am not sure if the American system is that egalitarian. I am rather sure that in Stanford, MIT or Yale you'll find always the same bunch of people with a few exceptions that came in through funding.
Well, I won't say that the German system is better in this respect ...

[Dominique]

The problem with evaluations is : what does it evaluate exactly?

People always blame the french for rejecting the "anglo saxon" scale. But, why should we use these scales? If the french society does not have the same values as the "anglo saxon" one, then it is legitimate not to use the same evaluation scale. Scales depend on what is considered important in a society.

more, comparing private and public universities is like comparing the private hospital that chooses it's patients according to the anticipated success rate to a public hospital that is obliged by law to take care of anyone what ever it's bad shape.

As for the Shanghai Jiao Tong University list, i read once that Paris university would be ranking much better if it was considered as "one", cumulating all it's top students instead of being split in more than 15 "smaller" universities. All french universities are divided in specialized ones. So, now, we need to group them.

This kind of "counting" just shows the absurd way of dealing with this list. The government is already making the administration reorganisation to make the french universities bigger and therefore more visible (meaning, climbing the chineese list). So, why not making only one university?

This does not make real sens. Does it mean the students and the teachers will be better? i don't think so. May be more foreing students will want to come, but is it really the purpose of universities?

By the way, does anyone know the purpose of university?

[D.Strohl]

"The appalling drop-out rate reflects the neglect of students by teachers who are overwhelmed by their numbers"

Yes, this is true. But the other problem is that many future « étudiants », when they have their "baccalauréat en poche", do absolutely not have the necessary basic knowledges to be able to follow successfully the lectures at the universities. In other words, even if "les amphithéâtres" would not be overloaded (thanks to many more amphitheaters and teachers), the drop-out rates would possibly be nevertheless very high in percentage.

If the unions are against any selection, then is up to them to motivate their troops to make a good job « dans les lycées et collèges » (where one prepares « le bac »), instead of politicking, continuing to invent post 1968 miraculous new pedagogic tools and organizing demonstrations and strikes to claim always more money (standard union formulation : « nous n'avons pas les moyens! » - we do not have the means).

This « manque de moyens », if it is unfortunately true at the universities, is absolutely not true in the « lycées et collèges », where the investment per capita is one of the highest in Europe, if not the highest. However, the international PISA studies (I refer to the version dating back to three or four years ago), which test basic knowledges of pupils aged 15 in various countries over the world ranks France at approx. the 14.th position. One of the best or the best is Finland. One may object that Finland's society is more homogen, with less immigrants. But the Dutch, who have as mixed a society as we have and who do not invest more per capita than we do, have much better results (5.th rank if I remember well). What appalls me is that the PISA studies are practically unknown in France – I discovered them because it happens that I am an occasional reader of the German magazine « Der Spiegel » (equivalent of Times, Newsweek, Le Point, L'Express) – Der Spiegel has published numerous articles about PISA. The Germans (if I believe the magazine) were appalled by their ranking, which was even worse than ours. But WE are still the best ..., and if not, it is because of « le manque de moyens »!

PS : « One of the mistaken beliefs that foreigners hold about France is that its education is excellent » - Charles, the education was indeed excellent (or at least very good) before 1968 – it began to decline after 68, first slowly, then always faster. « Le coup de grâce » came when the socialists under Mitterrrand decided that 80 percent of the pupils should be able to go to university if they wanted – this of course would have been difficult – so, « que pensez-vous qu'il arriva ? » - the level of the baccalauréat was lowered accordingly but, of course, « sans tambours ni trompettes ».

ROS,

I have read somewhere that one of the ranking criteria of the Chinese is the number and quality of papers published by the tested universities in renowned scientific periodicals. May be one of our problems is that we are not always « des foudres de guerre » in English. And it is unlikely that the Chinese will bother to have papers written in French translated in Mandarin or in English to be able to understand and evaluate them.

May be that the English at Jussieu is better than in other comparable Parisian universities – je plaisante, bien sûr !

[christopher muir]

One of the ironies existing in countries which have introduced tuition fees or loans for university students is that many of the present policy makers have themselves, in the past, enjoyed free university
education. There is no doubt that these fees can create hardship for non-rich young people trying to make ends meet after graduation.

[Monika]

I absolutely agree, Christopher, and that's what actually is happening in Germany where they introduced fees and it makes me absolutely angry because there IS evidence that it deters childrem from low income families to take up studies despite qualification (as a British study reveiled published by the Times I think last year). Any politician who says it won't is in my opinion a liar. You don't have to be Einstein to know that a child that had to learn that money is extremly precious and one has to spend it carefully won't easily take up studies that leaves him with thousands of Euros or Pounds of debt. But obviously the decision makers' children are well off and they are there because they enjoyed free education.
Fees as they are implemented in Germany are opposite to a pure meritocracy. Being able to pay one's fee doesn't say anything about one's qualification.
I'll never really understand why they didn't adopt the Australian system where one has to pay one's fees after having found a job. Here you have to go to a bank to borrow some money (obviously with interests which interests the banks ... well, perhaps this is just the reason for having introduced this kind of system: buisnes for banks) if one's parents can't pay it.

[Dominique]

Robert,

"I repeat. This is official: the leader of a major teacher's union has just said he is very worried because we might get better universities."

Climbing the chinese list does not mean being "better" university. It just means "higher ranked on the list", witch is very different.

This is the same kind of debate regarding the PIB (Produit interieur brut) and the BIP (Bonheur Interieur brut)

[Robert Marchenoir]

"Mr. Jean-Robert Pitte is certainly not the Sorbonne president." (John)

I wonder why take so much trouble and words to debate over such uninteresting administrative subtleties.

Maybe because Pitte is probably the only university president in France to say, loud and clear, that the present system is rotten, that it produces ignorance, failure and unemployment by design, and that the only effective remedy is to do exactly the opposite of what the Left and the unions pretend is best?

We often get this sort of obfuscating debate in France. Rather than deal with the real issues, which would endanger your privileges and comfort, start making a lot of noise about a totally minor point.

By the time you will have blown it out of proportion, everybody will have forgotten the original problem: mission accomplished.

As far as I am concerned, Jean-Robert Pitte could be the janitor of Sorbonne: what is relevant is what he says, not what the intractable French bureaucracy says he is.

[Valentin]

University fees are also means of responsibilisation, one has to be aware he's not there only to enjoy student life and then get out with a useless paper; and selection at the entry is a way of keeping standards high and stop wasting means on people not really interested or not up to the task.
So much noise is made about competition amongst universities, about pretended inequalities, when it would be so simple to just use fees, entrance exams, autonomy and collaboration with the industry right away, just like the Grandes Ecoles do already, and with much success. Why not use their example directly?

Then scholarships can be put in place for the poor and so on, but first of all, a certain level of quality should be assured, before starting to speak social.
It's exactly as with the economy, pointless to speak about social protection or solidarity when the machine is not working, there is little growth and everybody but the very poor and the billionnaires are crushed by taxes and forced to accept low quality of service.

[azloon]

MONIKA

yes, the most prestigous american universities have an prominent element of elitism in them, and in their admission processes, even tho they have attempted to moderate this since the 1960s.

they do this by accepting a fairly large number of students from disadvantaged backgrounds, and then paying all their expenses -- which is possible because of their gargantuan endowments (mostly funded by wealthy alumni). barack obama would be an example of someone who attended two elite universities, columbia and harvard law school, at virtually no cost to him, because of his brains and background, and because the university is looking for this kind of student, with buckets of money to pay his or her tuition and other expenses (obama's grandparents were to pay for a portion of his high school education at an elite preparatory school in hawaii).

my comment about egalitarianism was directed at france's misguided admission criteria, or lack thereof.

the u.s. version of egalitarianism has an asterisk. the student must demonstrate a degree of motivation, and preparation in order to attend university. the prestigous institutions are off-limits to mediocre students (unless they are children of alumni or prominent people), but many reasonably high quality public universities, small private colleges, and schools affiliated with religious groups exist for almost any high school graduate. there are two-year community colleges everywhere for students who are poorly prepared or have litttle or no financial support (they are much less expensive that four year universities).

and although you will find many graduates of the elite universities in high level positions, there are as many public university graduates (even non-graduates, like bill gates and steve jobs) who succeed enormously, especially in entrepreneurial situations (which is huge part of our economy). in other words, smart, creative, hard-working people have an avenue to success even without standout academic credentials. brains trump education in the u.s.

yes, running up debt is a problem for students here as well. accumulating $50,000 USD in debt is not uncommon for a person who attends both undergraduate and graduate or professional schools. the interest rate on this debt is miniscule (1-2%) so most students pay 'interest only' each year hoping their salaries in future years will permit them to pay it off.

about nobel prizes: i have noticed that, yes, americans receive a disproportionate number. but europeans, australians are prominently represented, and many of the americans who win are foreign-born, often in europe. what that means to me is that the u.s. attracts these high quality scientists because of the money that is lavished on them to do 'pure' research. the u.s. understands that 'pure research' allows us to maintain an advantage in development of new medicines and technologies, so it is well worth the expenditures. they pay for themselves in the long-run. china, for instance, is woefully retarded in the area of 'pure' research which is why they will be a 'copy cat' society for years to come. they have trouble interesting their brightest students in pure research because even the smartest student are often passive, conventional, and money grubbing (as is the whole of chinese society nowadays).

so the u.s. doesn't have to worry about losing it's technological edge soon. although our production of phDs in certain subjects is inadequate, we will just import them from europe with promise of high levels of financial support, offers they can't refuse, as don corleone might say.

p.s. an inordinate number of french have succeeded in silicon valley. they were among the pioneers in areas of early computer technology, proving above all, that smart people with ideas know where their 'bread is buttered,' and where the rewards for risk-taking are greatest. i have never heard a single word of lament in france about losing these brilliant people, and perhaps, about developing a french silicon valley which would be cultivated and supported by governemnt grants, as least in its early stages.

i so detect a shift taking place, with europeans attemping, with success, to keep their best students and using them to compete with the u.s. in important areas of technology. most americans love and invite competition (it benefits everyone) -- so 'bring it on.'

above all, we love the idea of winners (and losers) so competition is vital to discovering who is who. (yes, we do teach our kindergartners the importance of sharing, but by the time they're young adults they have discovered what society really thinks is important).

"heh, man, there's gold in them thar hills." (from some old hollywood western)

[D.Strohl]

ROBERT,

I agree totally with you. In France, generally speaking, we have often the speciality of splitting hairs (couper les cheveux en quatre) and of "drowning the fish" (noyer le poisson) with irrelevant details, but with brilliant rhetoric. And if one makes rhetoric, no decisions (especially if they are difficult) have to be made meanwhile and the orators are very pleased with themselves and think that the "mission is accomplished". Yes, but the solution is still as far away as it was beforehand ...

Regarding Mr. Pitte, even if he « owns » only 33.333 % of the Sorbonne, I think that he is a very courageous gentleman (including physical courage), with brilliant intellectual capacities as well, and with an entrepreneurial spirit which one would like to see more often in our administration – for instance, he has launched a subsidiary of the Sorbonne in the Persian Gulf region. This is more than enough to be disliked and jealoused by some of his colleagues.

[Marguerite]

Il y a tres longtemps que l'universite francaise a mauvaise reputation et que les parents et les professeurs vous poussent a rentrer dans une grande Ecole plutot qu'a l'universite si vous voulez trouver ,en sortant, du travail et un travail bien remunere.Ce qui est vrai !
Une reforme est donc necessaire.
Ce qui serait bien, ce serait de selectionner un nombre d' etudiants determine, dans chaque discipline, en fonction de la demande sur le marche du travail.

[Michel R, Paris]

Even if I do think the Shangai ranking is biased (where are Sciences-Po, Polytechnique, ENA, ENS? They produced an accountable number of Nobel Prize and Field medals-winners, international leaders and engineers), it nonetheless points out the state of decay of French universities. The 68 reform was a huge mistake, diluting means and creating more bureaucracy.

You can still find excellency in French universities, on PhD level for example, when a real selection occured. And it's wrong to say that there is no selection for master's degree, there is one, but for the second year of master's (bac+5).

But too many students are allowed to enter the facultés without the appropriate intellectual level or even the motivation. Students choose to study Philosophy, Sociology or "Language sciences" because they have been rejected by the grandes écoles or the IUT (Institute of Technologies which belong to universities but do select their students).

Another absurdity is the fact that Sports students cannot be selected on their physical capacities and anybody can study sports if they don't know what to do. The result is that too many students end up graduating, and cannot find any "débouchés" (job opportunities)...

Charles, if your children do not manage to get into a "prépa" (which are free, unlike Thinknoworpaylater said), there are other good alternatives : If they are into Economics or management, Dauphine university is more and more considered as a grande école as it now holds the right to select its students. They can also take the IEPs entry exams which lead to nearly everything except engineering, medecine and sciences.

[Ros]

Anyhow, to get into a "prepa" one's children have first to be in an excellent Lycée - otherwise very little hope! Sarkozy's reform of the "calendrier scolaire" is apparently going to eliminate the possibility of "piston" (who knows the english word?) whereby to get into a wellknown Lycée one has to be domiciled in the same quartier as the Lycée in question - be it chez grand-mère or whoever you like.
This is obviously impossible & the selection for these Lycée (Henri IV etc) will become more and more difficult.

[D.Strohl]

DOMINIQUE,

(Your message dated 1. Jul. 11:18)

Throwing away the thermometer does not cure the fever.

MONIKA,

Fees, of course, tend to discourage able but poor students. But in real life, nothing is for free - you mentioned the Australian system; it seems to be fair. The French system (almost everything is free) is not really an incentive to work hard.

The president of one of the French student unions, Bruno Julliard, is aged 28 (if I am right - but I have no means to "check my sources"). He is still a student. Perhaps he is very brilliant, preparing may be his third doctorate with a "bourse" (scholarship?), or may be his parents are happy to finance him. A few days ago, I saw him in a TV interview, along with the above mentioned J-R. Pitte, who called him "Bruno" (and not M.Julliard !) two or three times. It was funny ...

AZLOON,

I like your post very much. It is very clear and presents the American education system and its philosophy in an unbiased and convincing way.

"I have never heard a single word of lament in France about losing the brilliant people". On this particular point, your information is not quite up to date. Many persons here are aware that there is an alarming "fuite des cerveaux" (escape of the brains - brain drain in good English, if I remember well). But it is not easy to find working remedies.

PS : I was not aware that our sympathetic Gargantua was known even in the mountains and deserts of Arizona !

[Dominique]

D.Strohl

"Throwing away the thermometer does not cure the fever".

The thing to check first is the "étalonage" of the thermometer so it is able to measure something! and that it does not create the fever either.

The Shangai thermometer only takes into account the universities that discriminates students. Easy to have good results with good students!

This does not make sens because universities are the bottom line in France. Comparing is therefore useless. But suppressing the bottom line because it is not "nice" in the statistics is not solving the problem!

Easy to have no fever if you only take people with no illness!!

[john]

To Robert Marchenoir and D.Strohl: if a newspaper was referring to the president of the San Jose Technical College as the "Stanford University president", you'd call that misinformation. When The Times call the president of the low-ranking University Paris 4 as the "Sorbonne president", I equally call that misinformation, period. If anything, it would make more sense to use that "Sorbonne's president" title for the president of the prestigious University Paris 1 which inherited most of the Sorbonne faculties in 1970.

As for Paris 4 and Abu Dhabi, you should know that the Paris universities community is quite angry at Mr. Pitte for trying to present his university abroad as the real Sorbonne University and setting up a Sorbonne branch in Abu Dhabi. He has no right to do that on his own. It's a bit as if Magdalen College was trying to portray itself as the only Oxford University, to the exclusion of the other colleges. This attitude is disgraceful, university reform or not.

[azloon]

D. STROHL

actually we are partial to pantagreul here in arizona.

:)

(the truth is that there are approximately eleven persons living in arizona who could identify either)

[kathyw]

Whoever said that student debt might be around $50,000 when a student graduates was underestimating, I fear. With tuition at a private college around $30,000 a year, it's going to be quite a lot higher than that.
I have a daughter taking summer courses in New York City - the dorm room fee is $450 a week. That is not even the tuition.
The horrendous cost of an education in the U.S. is nothing to gloss over. A degree is within reach if you choose a community college and if you plan to work and go to school. This is shameful. Work AND go to school....

[pouet]

Monika,

I do agree with you. If you want to find a job in France, you need a degree which suits perfectly to the employer's requirements. I assume that people having a degree in Arts are clever enough (if motivated) to learn business or marketing in a few months.
But in France, once you've done Polytechnique, ENA or Ecole normale supérieure, you aquire a status for the rest of your life. You have to be really bright to attend these schools, but it's weird that you can live on it all your life long.

Azloon,
I remember a movie with french evil men. Never seen such a bad movie in my life (maybe Independance Day was worse) It's called Money Talks. With Chris Tucker. It dates back to 1998.

Charles,
It's true that university is quite a problem. There are a lot of good elements there (I had a licence and a maîtrise in Literature at Sorbonne Paris IV), but they are not really motivated. In french universities, you have to get on by yourself. No school spirit, few collaboration, and so on. You have to avoid main stream courses, such as the ex-DEUG.

But here are some good schools/courses you should have a look to:
- Law, Sciences (no one would dare to attend such classes with a Bac L or ES, so there is, de facto, a selection) and Economic universities (It's a bit the same situation than in sciences classes) are not so bad, but you have to make the good choice.
- Double diplôme
- classes préparatoires (in sciences, in business, in arts, in law) If you failed to compete for Grandes Ecoles, you are still ready to do well in your studies and in your life.
- IUT and BTS are more technical studies. It provides very efficient studies.
- Business schools (the best are to be attended after licence or classes préparatoires) = HEC, ESCP-EAP, EM Lyon, ESSEC. Sup de Co.
- Engineer Schools (Polytechnique, Centrale Paris et Lyon, Mines, Ponts, Télécom Paris, Sup'Aéro)
- IEP (Science Po and IEP in "Province")
- Others: CELSA, ENSAE, and so on.

By the way "Grande Ecole" is a status which provides schools with more autonomy and more financial means. It requires a selection (through a "concours" most of the time) For example: CELSA is a "grande école", while it's not as good as Polytechnique or ENA.

I don't recommand you Arts, Philosophy, Psychology until the licence level.

Basically, here are the lacks of french universities (as far as I know)
- poor language tuition
- few internships and reluctance to the business world
- too many universities
- no real study "spirit"
- lacks of places where to study (remember "la chambre de bonne"!)

But I find that french students are doing well when they are moving to foreign universities.

About fees, I think it would be better if the most motivated students could get easily a "bourse". Which is not the case nowadays, whether you ask to the University or to a bank.
But it won't help fundamental research. Which is sad if you think of our progress in mathematics applied to finance thanks of Mandelbrot, and the succes of french quants in trading.

[Robert Marchenoir]

John,

I am not challenging what you say are the facts about Jean-Robert Pitte's exact job description.

I am challenging the motives of taking exception to Charles Bremner's post about a very minor point which I never, ever saw raised anywhere.

As a matter of fact, if presenting Jean-Robert Pitte as the president of Sorbonne was such a misrepresentation, how come his many enemies have never made a public issue of it?

And if it was such a lie, how did Jean-Robert Pitte get away with negociating the opening of a branch of Sorbonne with Abu Dhabi authorities?

Are you suggesting the Abu Dhabi government is a bunch of illiterate fools, stupid enough to make a deal with a crook who does not own what he pretends to sell?

And if that was the case, how would the French government have tolerated that?

The very fact that you take up the Abu Dhabi subject suggests to me that the real quarrel is there: a large part of the French university mandarins hate Jean-Robert Pitte because of his unorthodox views on education, and because the Abu Dhabi deal is a smashing -- and very unusual -- success for France.

These left-wingers hate success.

They also hate foreigners, unless they are destitute immigrants whom they can patronize and manipulate at will. But rich Arabs, who have the power to buy the best education available? Hell, no.

Foreigners should come begging to our door, so we can stoop to them, bestow social allowances upon them, and make political capital out of them.

Foreigners should crawl up to France's eternal beacon of light, intelligence and glory, so our national ego can be properly massaged.

But export our prestigious Sorbonne? Negociate with dark-skinned people as equals, on their own territory? Build a Sorbonne in the desert, in the middle of Arab-speaking goat-herders, who turned into parvenus just a day ago thanks to their preposterous oil reserves? Phew!...

Since they cannot overtly criticize this very rare international achievement of a French university, those left-wing mandarins split hairs about who really owns the Sorbonne, which, frankly, nobody gives a damn about.

Of course, they prefer poor, unsuccessful and bad universities, as they have openly acknowledged (cf. Aschieri's incredible declaration I have linked to before).

Only with such a state of affairs can they whine constantly about the lack of "means" and the nasty capitalist government which oppresses the studying masses.

By maintaining mediocrity in the institution, they can also conveniently dispense themselves from competing on the basis of academic excellence, be they students or teachers.

This lurking hostility to the Abu Dhabi Sorbonne takes place at the same time as the incredibly successful petition against the Louvre exporting itself to Atlanta and... Abu Dhabi.

This string of events blows up the cover off one of the French Left's dirty little secrets: underlying their opposition to globalisation, there is a dark streak of neocolonialism, and sheer racism.

[Terry]

KathyW:

What is shameful about working your way through school? My father did and he is very successful. Most students in the night program at my law school worked their way through. ( Sometimes, the extra hurdle gave them a focus and drive that us lazy day school students lacked.

The high cost of U.S. is because of the easy availibility of government loans and private loans. When my father went to law school in 1973, tuition was $400. When I went to the same law school in 1997 tuition was $19,000.00. The difference, when my father went there were no loans. So, law schools could only charge what people could afford. With easy access to loan money, schools can now charge more money for tuition.

[Tonton]

I have found your blog via Tim King note on the leaving of Tony Blair.
I think it is really interesting.

Best regards,

http://mitterrand.2007.over-blog.com

[Daniel Strohl]

DOMINIQUE,

About thermometers : the translation in English of "étalonnage" is "calibration"; in German, it is "Kalibrierung" or more "vornehm", it is "Eichung".

I have used calibration procedures during a part of my professional life, therefore what you say is not fully new for me.

However, even if I am not a specialist in thermometry, it seems unlikely to me that a thermometer is able to create fever ... Ok, I understand that you meant it au "sens figuré".

"Easy to have good results with good students!" Yes, sure, Monsieur de la Pallice. But it is not the job of universities to have first to teach a part of their incoming students the basic knowledges ("lire, écrire, compter" i.e read, write,count) they unfortunately do not have in many cases.

JOHN,

I have got your point about the administrative organization of the Sorbonne - of course, I was not aware of this, since I am not a specialist.

Regarding Abu Dhabi and the Sorbonne branch over there, please refer to Robert's post. It is perfectly clear and I approve it, even if the wording is may be rather strong.

[Daniel Strohl]

AZLOON,

May be from time to time there are more than eleven persons in Arizona knowing about Gargantua, Pantagruel and Gargamelle, i.e. French engineers or technicians coming for business reasons in a big electronic plant located in Phoenix (I do not name it otherwise Charles would be upset ...).

[john]

To Robert Marchenoir: what you seem to ignore here is that officially Mr. Pitte did not open a Sorbonne branch in Abu Dhabi. He opened a "Paris-Sorbonne" branch. The official name of this university is "Université Paris-Sorbonne Abu Dhabi". You can see it here: http://www.paris-sorbonne-abudhabi.ae/_French/index.htm

"Paris-Sorbonne" is the name of Paris 4 University. Let me remind you again that the name of Paris 1 University is "Panthéon-Sorbonne", and Paris 3 University is "Sorbonne Nouvelle". So in effect the French government did not approve the creation of a Sorbonne branch in Abu Dhabi, it approved the creation of a "Paris-Sorbonne" branch, i.e. a Paris 4 University branch, this is quite different.

The misinformation comes when journalists don't do any research and present this Abu Dhabi university as a branch of THE Sorbonne, when it is in fact just a branch of Paris 4. The university is called "Université Paris-Sorbonne Abu Dhabi". The French government would never have accepted if the university had been called "Université de la Sorbonne Abu Dhabi".

Also note that the president of Paris 1 University could very well open a branch in Abu Dhabi if he chose to. He could legally name it "Université Panthéon-Sorbonne Abu Dhabi", since "Panthéon-Sorbonne" is the name of Paris 1.

What's wrong here is when Mr. Pitte tries to portray his university as the only Sorbonne. Obviously, if he had acted in a fairer way, what he would have done is he would have set up a Sorbonne branch in Abu Dhabi in partnership with Paris 1 and Paris 3.

As I said previously, just imagine if Magdalen College decided to set up an "Oxford Dubai University" in Dubai on its own, without consulting the other colleges. That would create a big scandal. Here in the French case Mr. Pitte is playing with words, because the official name of his university contains the word "Sorbonne". That's what I find unethical.

As for the university per se, I'm all in favor of establishing such French universities abroad, all I'm saying is you have to play by the rules and not "tirer la couverture à soi" as the French would say.

[azloon]

POUET:

i am ordering "Money Talks" from netfilx. thx.

[azloon]

DANIEL STROHL:

yes, i am familiar with the plant, i am quite sure. groupe b***, yes? -- or has it changed it's name. i thought perhaps it was purchased by an american firm awhile back.

it is located on the black canyon expressway in phoenix, and has been there for quite a few years. surely, some of those folks must be familiar with gargantua and pantagruel. btw, who the hell is gargamelle?

actually, i believe i overstated the number of non-french arizonans who are familiar with these names: the number is closer to seven.

this is not a hotbed of culture and learning, tho not as desolate as my joke suggests. this is the land of barry goldwater (remember him?), "where seldom is heard a discouraging word and the skies are not cloudy all day." (from an old cowboy song)

so true, at least the weather part. we have 340 days of sunshine a year so very few cases of seasonal affective disorder (SAD)

yippie eye-oh ky-yea !!!!!!

[Ros]

It is really interesting to re-read all the Comments on this blog - we seem to have got miles and miles away from the original thread - obviously, it would have been better if Charles had not even mentioned "the Shanghai Jiao Tong University list". We could have then stayed on the subject of the difficulty of getting into a Class Préparatoire (no one has yet translated "piston" into english for me - please try?) and the very bad quality of University teaching in France.
Does it REALLY matter who is President of this or that? and as for Dubai - well, it's a long way away.
POUET: I don't understand what you mean by " I don't recommand you Arts, Philosophy, Psychology until the licence level" - do you mean that you are eliminating these VERY worthy professions from the French university and thus France in general? And Journalists? Where do they come in?

[VisitorHK]

It is quite useful to take some notes from this blog entry/its comments in order to plan one’s child’s future in foreign France. Thank you!

I do believe however, that not everything is as bad as it seems. Even though teaching might be rather bad on the average, a student who knows where he wants to go, will probably make his way regardless of the French system. Someone has said here ‘the brain trumps education’ in the US. In France you cannot ignore education in this way, but with some brain and outside inspiration, students will reach their goals – even in France.

ROS:
I agree that one shouldn’t downplay the value of some very worthy subjects. I assume that it is rather o kay to study in France until the “licence” and than seek elsewhere to obtain your Master’s degree, especially in those subjects mentioned (philosophy, psychology).

“piston” – what about favouritism? – “pistonner” – to favour/further s.o.

[Dominique]

Those who believe that favouritism is the way to go to the classes prepa obviously did not try, or did not manage to be tacken.

There are other reasons for not being taken : not being good enough

[Robert Marchenoir]

It suddenly strikes me that the title of this post is "Fixing French universities". What a difference can three letters make.

[Daniel Strohl]

AZLOON,

The company has a rather long name, starting with M and containing 3 times the letter O ... They manufacture among others semiconductors and mobile phones and are operating worldwide, including France, where they have at least one big plant – but I have left business more than ten years ago – things may have changed.

But let us come to more interesting matters – Gargantua was the son of Grandgousier (his father) and of Gargamelle (his mother).
« Gousier» means throat in ancient French (gosier is the modern word) – therefore Grandgousier means Greatthroat (...).
Gargamelle is also of course based on a word play – in French « gamelle » means tin-can and sounds funny (in colloquial French, « ramasser une gamelle » means to fall – for instance a boy is running, stumbles and falls on his nose).
But « mamelle » means teat, breast, udder. There is a famous quote from Sully, a minister of Henri IV : « Labourage et pâturage sont les deux mamelles de la France » - ploughing and pasturage are the two udders of France. When I was young, any school boy, even somewhat retarded, knew this quote. I am not sure that the equivalents of today know it also – we should ask our friend Dominique, who is so proud of our present school system ...

I remember the name of Barry Goldwater, but was not aware that he came from Arizona. He was lucky to have such a name – Drinkwater would have been less fun ...

My wife and I have lived five years in SE France, in the inner Provence, close to the famous (at least in France) « gorges du Verdon ». The climate there is also rather dry and hot, and the inhabitants boast with 300 sunny days a year. It is a beautiful region, rather sparely populated. Per pure coincidence, we had lunch at a restaurant today and they had « en promotion » rosé wine (rosé fruité) from Régusse/Pierrevert, which is close to our former house. The wine was excellent. (Good) wine is an excellent medicine against SAD and other similar diseases – but my wife and I do not agree on the required dose...

[Ros]

DOMINIQUE: Of course you're right when you say "There are other reasons for not being taken : not being good enough" and I certainly didn't mean to infer otherwise. However, no one can deny that a pupil in one of the so-called "best" Lycées (& not only in Paris) has a better chance getting in than others.Favouritism is a good word to translate "piston" and if Sarko's reform of the Calendrier Scolaire works, it will be a good way to diminish this. Of course, for parents for whom money is no object, there are, in all the big towns ,private establishments (no need to mention names) where a fairly good pupil can be pushed but this must be the same everywhere.

[Dominique]

ROS,

But the student is taken because he is good, not because he comes from a particular lycée. You might be in the good lycée and not being taken. Your use of the word "piston" make me think of a sysem where people who can go to the prepa classes go only because they are the son of someone in the network. That may happen of course, just like for oxford or Harvard, but it is not the usual way.

And i have a very different view about private establishments : they very often taken pupils who's parents can pay, but who can't make it in the regular public prepas because they are not good enough.

So, the selection is reversed as compared to your description. All best lycées are public (from Louis Legrand to any other city) and choose the good students on "dossiers" wherever they come from.

[Robert Marchenoir]

"Officially Mr. Pitte did not open a Sorbonne branch in Abu Dhabi. He opened a 'Paris-Sorbonne' branch."

As everyone can see, this is vastly different.

"Paris-Sorbonne" is the name of Paris 4 University. Let me remind you again that the name of Paris 1 University is "Panthéon-Sorbonne", and Paris 3 University is "Sorbonne Nouvelle".

I think all readers interested in the subject have understood that by now.

"So in effect the French government did not approve the creation of a Sorbonne branch in Abu Dhabi, it approved the creation of a 'Paris-Sorbonne' branch, i.e. a Paris 4 University branch, this is quite different."

Quite.

Maybe we should have a referendum about that.

Do you approve of the creation of a Sorbonne branch in Abu Dhabi? Or would you prefer instead that a Paris 4 University branch be opened in Abu Dhabi, with the name Paris-Sorbonne?

I say: give power to the people! Let them decide about the really burning issues that drive their lives!

John, are you a French civil servant? It takes one not to realize that while this bickering among mandarins might be amusing for a few seconds and warrant three lines in Le Canard Enchaîné, it is typcial of the waste of time, energy and money that drowns this country into molasses.

[pouet]

DOMINIQUE

I do agree with you, "prépas" have few problems with favoritism.

But you have a true problem with private establishments. People chooses an establishement (when they can afford the price, which is the case for most of private prépa) because it's good or not (Most of the pupills in Henri IV could afford a private prépa)
I know some people who choose a private prépa because they couldn't go to Henri IV. And some who went there because it's better to go in a good private prépa than a bad public prépa.

When you come to business schools, best "prépas" are private.
See this (Louis le grand only 5th, first public prépa)
http://www.prepa-hec.org/classement/prepa/etudiant.2007.php

I still think that Henri IV, Louis le Grand, and le Parc are the best schools (high school and prépa included) in France. But on the average private establishments (fewer) are as good as public ones.

Concerning "prépas" the difference of price is not very high (IPESUP is an exception) + in my school, the richest pupills could accept to pay more, so that the poorest didn't need to take a credit.

If you take High Schools, more and more parents want to put their children in a private establishment.
Because "they can't make it" in the public system???

I do agree with you that one shouldn't have to think it twice between education and money (education is a higher value) But you seem to think, that when one pay, it's definitly the bad solution.

[azloon]

DANIEL STROHL;

i am familiar with the very large electronics corporation of which you speak. it is headquartered in chicago, but has many offices and manufacturing plants in arizona. the french company that i mentioned, groupe bull, is also in phoenix, and specializes in information systems (whatever those are).

http://www.bull.us/bull_technologies/index.html

Barry Goldwater was born in my city, in the mountains of northern arizona. he was the republican presidential candidate in 1964 and ran against lyndon johnson. when he mentioned during an interview that tactical nuclear weapons might be useful in future armed conflicts, his candidacy was doomed. the democrats aired a tv commerical after that with a small girl picking the pedals off a daisy, counting from ten to one as she pulled them off. when she finished saying "one," there was a blinding flash, followed by the mushroom cloud of a nuclear explosion. this was followed by a authoratative voice saying "vote lyndon johnson for president." ouch!!

funny you mention drinkwater vs. goldwater. a fellow named herb drinkwater, who died not too long ago, was a much admired, very accomplished, mayor of scottsdale, arizona (a wealthy suburb of phoenix).

i think you are trying to "get away with one" with your prescription for alcohol as a treatment for SAD in an area with 300 days of sunshine yearly.

i think you need to find some link between moderate to heavy alcohol use and low rates of skin cancer.

[rocket]

Hey Azloon

What city in New Mexico are you from?

I was out in Santa Fe a couple of years ago.

[pouet]

ROS

I'm sorry, I only notice now that you were asking me a question. Far from me the idea of diminishing the importance of these subjects(I've studied two of them).
I studied in Sorbonne during two years (one year in licence and one year in master: at the time we called it licence and maîtrise) after having gone through a selective section ("classes prépas").
I just wanted to stress one thing: a lot of students who don't have a concrete idea of what to do after "le bac" attend these classes, and try to succeed in vain during two years in an overcrowded university.
So the level becomes really good only in the third year, because of natural selection (they failed their exams)
That's why I found it interesting for the universities to deliver an advice to the students or to select them.
You must realize that 80% of the pupills in high schools get their "bac". And all of them can automatically have a place in a University in the class he choose.

I hope that nowadays things are getting better in universities thanks to the wide expansion of very good professional studies (IUT/BTS) and the attraction it exerces on students. I think that new students have more a down to earth approach now (studying to work)

[azloon]

ROCKET

i am live in arizona (hence azloon, az being the postal abbreviation for arizona, loon self-explanatory), not new mexico (prescott, arizona to be precise).

new mexico, as you probably know, is the state immediately to the east of arizona. santa fe has an open-air opera house which my former wife an i used to go to every summer. but only if it was mozart, puccini or verdi so i could doze, and enjoy the music, during the performance).

were you there on holiday? did you go to the opera?

[rocket]

Azloon

Went to santa fe in 2001 and then drove up to denver through leadville co. Didn't go to the Opera in santa fe but did appreciate the countryside and the wonderful sunsets.

Also got a chuckle out of the lowriders in Espanola

check out this video of Tonopah NV when I went through 3 years ago. We had planned to stay the night thinking there was someting to do but needless to say we cancelled the hotel reservation (Not at the Mizpah, it's been closed for years) and went on to Reno.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=rivierarocket

[Bozo]

Two point to clarify :
- "Grandes écoles" are not as selective as some here seems to believe... There are for exemple more places offered in Business schools than the total number of students in second year of "prépa HEC".
- At the Master level, universities are more selectives than GE (Grandes écoles), with frequently two or three hundreds candidates for, at most, twenty places.
- Saying there are no selection in french universities is purely bullshit; there is a selection process each year, which is called "exams". ;) On one hundred first-year students in law, less than forty will get their Licence (bachelor), less than ten will get a Master, less than one a PhD. There is no selection at start, but universities are highly selective on the long run, more than most of the GE (excepted "groupe A"). However, the first three years in this system are an incredible and costly mess.

[azloon]

ROCKET:

the youtube link produced a sound track but not an image though i don't think i needed the image. judging from the noises (basically vehichle noise) and having driven through tonopah myself, i understand why you didn't stay there. it doesn't get much 'funkier' than small town nevada.

lowriders = hispanics. new mexico is the most mexican state in the u.s. spanish-speakers occupy most of the important political positions. bill richardson, former governor, is running for president. despite the name, he is spanish-speaking and has a mexican mother.

non-hispanics report feeling discrimination in new mexico. it is a harbinger of things to come in the southwest u.s. (and a sort of a payback for anglo-saxon americans who enjoy majority status most everywhere else).

in 25 years, with or without immigration restrictions, this part of the u.s. will be predominantly hispanic.

the photo of st. michel is incredible. magic moment.

[rocket]

Azloon

Try youtube angain when you have time. I can't believe you didn't get video

have you got ADSL? It's a heavy file

[VisitorHK]

Amazing pictures on that video!!!

[Daniel Strohl]

AZLOON,

You are right about the company based in Chicago. Their French plant in Toulouse were my best customers when I still was in business. But I have never travelled to Phoenix.

However, I have been in San Francisco (semiconductor exhibition), in Dallas and in Carson City and Reno. I have got excellent memories from these (few) travels. Americans are very hospitable - San Francisco is a beautiful city, with a somewhat European touch.

My wife and I stayed one week in San Francisco, in an hotel close to the Fisherman's Wharf. The personnel was mostly Mexican and really nice.

One of our sympathetic American colleagues (he was somewhat older than I am and furthermore, it was 15 years ago) happened to be a grandson of Davy Crockett (and I remember that he was a fan of San Antonio, Tx). In the Reno airport, my wife was giving him the arm and both of them walked in the hall singing the song of Davy Crockett (my wife singing in French since she does not speak English). We had also two British colleagues with us - they marched about 20 m behind us, with the stiff upper lip! But both of them, when they were thirsty, which happened rather often, didn't show the stiff upper lip ... By the way, one finds very good Chardonnay in California - also other vines as well, of course.

[azloon]

ROCKET:

ok, i was able to view the video. just as i thought!
nothing. almost a "ghost town." just as i remembered it.

the only "action" in tonopah was at the local brothel (only nevada has legalized prostitution in the u.s.) as you may have discovered.

[rocket]

Azloon

Didn't make it to the brothel. As I was with my wife, I think she would have nixed that idea. If only I was a Frenchman I would have been able to justify a visit for cultural studies. (Chuckle)

They have on French TV some shows in the evening on American Brothels. On Planet TV or something like that and I've seen that the prices are in the thousands.

Also made it to Virginia City but didn't see Ben and the boys. Was disapointed. But did meet the woman who presided over the wedding of the Captain and Tenille.

PS- the MizpAH in TonopAH is for sale - AH

http://www.nevadatravel.net/travelgram/mizpahbrochure.shtml

If your interested we can buy it and make a brothel out of it and make Dominique a partner. That will make a capitalist out of him.

[azloon]

DANIEL STROHL:

san francisco is the u.s.'s only "european" city, imo.

"davy" crocket is pure "americana," of mythical stature. your getting to hang out with his descendant is like me getting to know a relative of gargantua. :)

re: your not getting to phoenix. it was 43 degrees celsius there yesterday. enough said. (i live in the mountains, 100 miles north, where it is considerably cooler, but not cool)

re: california wines. i grew with a father who preferred french wines -- bordeaux and burgundy. in those days (the 1950s, 60s), only french wines were any good. the wine landscape has completely changed. as a rule, california wines -- and chilean, australian -- are better bargains than french wines , and generally of higher quality at their price points. if i had $300 to spend (seldom), i'd still buy a quality bordeaux (margaux, lafite rothchild, etc). but when spending less than a hundred dollars, there are far better wines from california in that price category. (actually, it's hard to find california wines, even the very best, in the $100USD+ price category -- while inevitably you'll pay more than that for any high quality french wine. i guess i don't need to ask whether californa wines are available in france.

hard to understand what happened to the french wine industry, although i can guess. i suspect the concept of 'creative destruction' has not dominated thinking within the french wine industry. no pain, no gain, i think.

[Daniel Strohl]

AZLOON,

Funny what you say about "my" Crockett ! What is sure is that the gentleman came from Texas and that he was serious in business.

I just had a look at the DVD version of "Encyclopaedia Britannica", which one should be able to refer to as a reliable source, especially on this blog.

Davy Crockett has got in it a rather long article - the caption is as follows :

"Crockett, Davy
born Aug. 17, 1786, eastern Tennessee, U.S.
died March 6, 1836, San Antonio, Texas

byname of David Crockett American frontiersman and politician who became a legendary figure."

But let us go to a more interesting matter, i.e wine.

Yes, one can buy in France in almost any good supermarket or "hypermarché" Californian wine, as well as Chilean, Argentine, Australian, etc. - of course also Italian and Spanish. There are also specialized wine shops, where the prices are somewhat higher, but were you can get pertinent information about the wines, the producers etc. You can also buy there much more expensive bottles.

The price range in the supermarkets varies from a few Euros (1 Euro = 1.33 US dollars) to may be 10 or 20 € - in that "upper" price range, you may get very good bottles, including Bordeaux and Burgundy. Good Champagne is somewhat more expensive. Even the low priced (French) wines are drinkable and sometimes good - many efforts have been made regarding quality improvements - of course, due to foreign competition.

The French wine industry has made some mistakes, for which they pay now. First, they have sold their « grands crus » for a long time for very high prices, which are unaffordable for most of the people. But which have nevertheless a customer base of « connaisseurs » and also of wealthy snobs, which can not possibly imagine that a good wine may cost only 10 or 30 € or even less.

Second, less prestigious wines have tried to « profit » from the reputation of the « grands vins ». The label « Bordeaux », for instance, does not mean that the wine in the bottle is really good, even if it is sold for a high price, which happened too often.

Third, for a foreign customer (and for many Frenchmen as well) , the large number of various names was puzzling. It was based on a marketing concept (vins de terroir, vins AOC etc.) which may be was good for France, but not for export. It is only recently that some wine makers had the idea to print on the label the vine sort(s) (« cépage » in French) used. For instance, if I buy a dry white wine which I do not know, I buy it only if it is a chardonnay, or a viognier, but not a sauvignon – I do not like the taste of it – a few weeks ago, I tested a « chenin blanc » from South Africa – I didn't like it too much either. But of course somebody else may have a different taste. If there is no vine indication on the label, I do not buy the bottle.

If you like dry white wines, I may recommend our « vins d'Alsace » - they are all what we call « des vins de cépage », i.e Gewürztraminer, Pinot gris, Pinot blanc, Riesling, Muscat and a few more. There is however an exception : it is « Edelzwicker » which is « un assemblage » of various Alsatian vines – sometimes it is very good, sometimes not ... It is generally sold in one liter bottles around 4 to 5 €. If it is not good enough to drink, it will do for sauces (my wife is an excellent cook, but she monitors the level of already opened bottles ...).

Due to this various mistakes, the foreign competitors were able to take big market shares. The French industry is making now great efforts, but they were too long a time resting on their laurels .

PS : Regarding the mention of the vine sorts on the bottles, I have read somewhere that it was forbidden by law, at least in some specific cases. We have got « dot putter » type lawmakers, as Dominique would say ...

[azloon]

ROCKET;

re: brothels whose prices "are in the thousands."

for services, or to buy the entire brothel?

i don't think i want to be a business partner of dominique's. he might determine that sex is one of the 'rights of man' and decide to give it away.

very interesting about captain and tenillle. they have recently moved to prescott (my town) and are building a house here. while their house is being built, they are renting a house from a guy i play golf and raquetball with, so i have been hearing his stories about them. he's gone to dinner with them and reports: she is still quite attractive (surgically aided?) and 'bubbly." he (daryl) is less well-preserved, almost mute, but makes occasional wry comments. as i remember, this was their "shtick" on the tv show. he no longer wears his greek fisherman's cap.

until my friend told me they had come to his door asking about a rental, i had not heard their names mentioned in twenty years.

oldies, but goodies.

[azloon]

DANIEL STROHL:

'davy, davy crockett, king of the wild frontier"

"killed a bar (tennessee for bear) when he was only three"

from a 1950's popular song. any songs about gargantua??

re: the french wine scene

just as complicated as i suspected.

my son, who worked in burgundy and provence as a bicycle wine tour guide, confirms your comment about excellent french wines for $30-40 USD (25 to 35 Euros). those wines may not find their way to the u.s. at least at those prices. my experience is that $75-$150 is the price point for an excellent french wine. perhaps these are the same wines that you in france can buy much less expensively. there are some nearly undrinkable bordeaux's in the $25-40 range. much better bargains in california wines in this price range, imo.

appropos of nothing: Trader Joe's is a wildly popular "yuppie" food store in the western u.s. (i have a spanish friend who lived in los angeles for 15 years and wants to open at trader joe's in madrid). it sells a passably good, red burgundy-type wine from a california vineyard called Charles Krug for $2 a bottle. (during the "dot.com" boom of the late 90s, early 2000s, many wealthy entrepreneurs started wineries, and soon the wine supply came to exceed demand). this wine is popularly known as "two-buck chuck." (chuck is nickname for charles; buck is a dollar). i have friends who drink it often. as an occasional drinker, and a wine snob, i have not tried it. there's someting i just can't get past in order to drink a $2 bottle of wine. the glass bottle must cost more than that!!

i looked at the Times Atlas of the World yesterday searching for les gorges du verdon. i found them, and also noticed nearby the "grand canyon de verdon." what is that?? as you know, we have our own grand canyon, about two hours from my home.

bon appetit!

[Daniel Strohl]

AZLOON,

Verdon is a river (nothing comparable to the Colorado river). It is famous for "les gorges du Verdon" - on a part of it, there is a canyon, but it is not of the same scale as yours regarding size and depth. There is also a great artificial lake called "lac de Ste Croix" and a dam at the end of it. The landscape is beautiful.

The region is classified as "parc naturel régional"; that means that not every type of construction is allowed. There is a severe fight which lasts since years between EDF (Electricité de France, the nationalized utility which had up to a few years ago a total monopoly in our country) and local people who try to hinder the construction of a very high voltage (aerial) line which would cross the region to boost and secure the electricity supply of the Côte d'Azur. It seems that the local people have won the last fight – but who knows ? The alternative to the aerial line would be a buried line; this would be very expensive and technically risky, since there are no many already available working examples over a large distance.

As we still lived in this region, I have assisted (may be 4 years ago) to a conference made by two professors dispatched by EDF – one came from the most famous French « Ecole vétérinaire » (Maisons Alfort), the other was the head of the « département de médecine nucléaire » of a famous Parisian hospital and also the head of the medical committee of EDF - I have forgotten the committes's exact name. It was very interesting for me, since it happens that I have got some professional experience in related fields (but not medicine, however).

Regarding wine : I have forgotten to mention among the Alsatian wines the « Pinot noir » which is a very dark « rosé » or even a red wine (Otrott Region), but made only in small quantities. Pinot noir is a vine used to make the red Burgundy; white Burgundy is made of chardonnay. I don't know if the Alsatian pinot noir is exactly the same as the Burgundy « cépage ». We have also the « Crémant d'Alsace » - when it is good, one may compare it to a Champagne, but costing notably less. Sometimes, it could be better, but this is also true for Champagne ...

Regarding your two-buck chuck : we have got similar stuff to a comparable price, but generally it is hardly drinkable – however, there are exceptions.
It reminds me the wine we got in the army or, in my case, in the Navy. At that time, « service militaire obligatoire » was still in force – it was cancelled by Chirac. The wine came from the region Languedoc, it was very cheap and no good, since the vine-grovers had only yield in mind. Now they try to switch to quality, but it is late for a part of them. And there is overproduction everywhere in the world.

[Tag]

Charles,
I am in complete agreement with all you have said about French universities. Having live in France for several years my favourite after dinner conversation/argument starter is to ask where in the 40 years did the revolutionary esprit '68 become co-opted by the forces of stagnation.
You are correct to call this current spate of reforms revolutionary. At the age of 21 I taught in a French universite. Previously I has studied at Sciences Po. The differences couldn't have been more stark: not only in the up keep of buildings and the facilities on offer, but also in class size and student-teacher ratio. My job was to hold conversation classes of 40+ students. To ensure everyone participated I'd ask questions bound to rile the students into debate. Once I asked why they thought it was a good idea not to screen students before allowing them access to university. I was told I was an Anglo-saxon and therefore could not understand the inherent equality of the French system. I pointed out that equality of opportunity does not equate to equality of ability. I advocated using the bac as a method to seperate the wheat from the chaff, for the simple reason that it overall it cost the state substantially more to educate a university student than a lycee student. Mentioning economics was a big mistake as I was soon pigeon-holed as an anglo-saxon neo-liberal. I decided to go all out and admit to having been to a grande ecole, to point out that charging fees and having highly competitive entrance exams ensured a motivated and capable promotion of students. This turned out to be the nail in the coffin. I had no shown myself to be not only an Anglo-Saxon neo-liberal, but a privileged elitist to boot.
Only in France could a left-wing 21 year old Irish guy from a housing estate be seen as an Anglo-Saxon, neo-liberal, elitist snob.
Incidentally 20% of the students in that year dropped out before the end of the second term and a further 25% didn't make it past the end of year exams. Equality at its best!

If you're worried about your kids not getting in to the grandes ecoles send them to European Studeis at Kings in London or Trinity in Dublin, as students from those unis automatically enter into Sciences Po in their 3rd year. After that year is over, they can spend one further year to get the Sciences Po premier cycle qualification!

[Juliette]

Robert: it's people like you, who are always moaning about everything, negatives, considering that what they think is always true and people thinking differently as stupids, who, PARTLY, are pushing this country down, and yet you have the audacity to claim you want it to stand up again! Well if it was you wish, Robert (but I don't think you want it, as you are such a loser it makes you happy things are not going well in this country, like that your miserable life is a way easier to handle, as you are not the only one to be unhappy), if it is really what you think, emigrate or better, commit suicide (like that I would not have to pay for your retirement pension). France would be a better place without whining people like you.

Rocket: why had you to come back in France? Why can't you stay with your fellow USstatians, who, always so prompt to defend them, why?

As for french universities, well it's true they are poor and work experiences are not served on a silver platter, in other words, they are not for assisted people.
And we have very little information about them too, in June the Nouvel Obs released an article about the universities diplomas having a good reputation in the labour market (strangely Charles didn't mentionned it, as if he never quoted this magazine!): for example,do you know the Master "El Karoui", which is teached at Paris VI, worth more in Wall Street and the City than a MBA?

Marguerite, l'université, si on veut y décrocher un diplôme, dure au moins 3 ans, pendant ce temps-là la demande dans tel ou tel secteur peut changer, il peut sortir une année par exemple 2000 diplômés pour 1500 postes à pourvoir (sans compter la concurrence des écoles). En fait je pense qu'il faudrait, en priorité, valoriser les bac pro pleins de personnes font un bac G alors qu'elles n'en ont pas les capacités, un bac pro leur iraient mieux et comme le plus souvent elles travaillent (car il y a des débouchés dans ces fillières!) mais bon on est un pays d'intellectuels il ne faut pas l'oublier... Et au fait Charles, pourquoi te réjouis-tu à l'annonce de réformes vis-à-vis des universités françaises? Ne me dis pas que tu comptes laisser tes marmots faire leurs études supérieures en France?????

Oh, sais-tu qu'il est possible d'être diplômé sans avoir poursuit d'études secondaires (c'est le VAE,vas faire un tour sur Internet puis consacre un article là-dessus, ça aussi mériterait d'être plus connu. Et au fait, sache que l'un des facteurs les plus importants dans la réussite scolaire et professionelle d'une personne est son entourage les études l'on montré: je connais quelqu'un par exemple qui est fils de paysans, lesquels l'ont poussés à exploiter ses (considérables) capacités intellectuelles. Résultat: il est aujourd'hui médecin, n'a jamais redoublé, même pendant ses études de médecine (et c'était à Rennes, pas chez ces nuls d'Aix-Marseilles!). Les trois autres enfants ont bien réussi eux aussi, alors que les fils des voisins... Si l'enseignement dispensé par les profs est important dans la réussite scolaire et l'assimilation des connaissances d'une personne, (tout comme l'est l'attitude de la classe dans laquelle cette personne évolue), le rôle de la famille y est très important aussi.
Cela dit, je pense que l'apprentissage serait plus facile si les journées et les heures de cours étaient moins longues ( à la place on travaillerait le mercredi apès-midi et on aurait plus que 10 jours de vacances en février ). Au sujet du surchargement des classes, les japonais sont 40 pour 1 professeur et pourtant ils marchent bien en classe, cela dit ils valorisent bien plus le travail que nous, à tel point qu'ils vivent pour travailler, alors que nous on travaille pour vivre) Quant au soutien scolaire, il devrait être fourni par les professeurs eux-même au lieu de prendre des cours privés à 2000 euros (apparemment ça va être réintroduit, mais que dans les ZEP, comme si tout le monde n'avait pas le droit d'en disposer)...

[azloon]

daniel strohl --

"two-buck chuck" is, i am told by my penny-pinching friends, eminently drinkable, surprisingly. i just can't bring myself to try it.

are there any golf courses in your area?

[Maggie G]

"if it is really what you think, emigrate or better, commit suicide (like that I would not have to pay for your retirement pension)"

Hey, Juliette, This is going too far. Not even Rocket in his most extreme outbursts to Dominique ever talked like this.

A lot of us on this blog LIKE Robert. Reading a comment from him is always one of the high points of any discussion.

Please, un peu de respect!

Don't listen to her, Robert!

[VisitorHK]

Juliette,

is this any personal score that you have to settle with Robert?? You should seek a different audience for that.

Robert's contributions here are most impressive.

[Ian Varey]

At the Grand old age of 41 I have just completed my University degree. I started when I was 37. I now owe in the region of £25,000 ($50,000 or 35,000 euros). It is the first time that I have ever been in debt in my whole life and it is not very comfortable. I do, however, believe that there is no such thing as a free lunch. French students who are studying/have studied at my university have paid practically nothing. How does that work? It actually seems to me that this word "free" is completely missed-used. Those 1.1million teachers in France have to be paid from somewhere....where does the money come from, the tax payer or the money borrowed by the French government. Even if the French student doesn't actually pay out of his/her own pocket, it most certainly cannot be classed as "free". The debate should be whether their country can afford to continue like this given the state of the French economy over the last couple of decades, not on the mindless, ideological, implaccable attitude of those who "major on the minor and minor on the major" and who oppose ANY kind of change.

P.S I got a good degree (2.1) and worked hard for it as well as working a 30 hour a week job.......what about that France?

[Daniel Strohl]

Azloon,

There are golf courses in our area. I will come back on this - the son-in-law of one of our friends plays golf and I will phone our friend and former neighbour to get details.

Regarding two-buck chuck : this evening, I had a glass of Edelzwicker (at 4.5 € a 1 liter bottle !) - it was good. Even my wife acknowledged this (reluctantly) - she is like you, she drinks only good wine. Most of the time, we drink mineral water - I have some overweight problems. Therefore, I have slowed down on wine and alcohol (however, don't be afraid, I have never been a Gargantua or Pantagruel type ...) and do everyday at least 45 minutes of in-door training bicycle (vélo elliptique) plus at least one hour walking, weather permitting. We are very close (7 minutes walk) to the entrance of the ancient city of Colmar - and at 5 minutes walk of the nearest fields. The closest wood is at 25 minutes.

PS : when you explained the origin of your pseudonym to Rocket, I had a look at my resident dictionary, which is usually very good. I was not quite sure of the meaning of "loon". My dictionary is obviously not aware that you are living in Arizona, since it translated "loon" with "plongeon arctique" (arctic dive) but it gave also of course, the translation I was looking for!

[Daniel Strohl]

Juliette,

Vous avez un si joli prénom, qui s'accorderait si bien avec Robert (j'allais dire Roméo ...).

Juliette, to be aggressive is not a solution, and especially on this blog, where everybody tries to understand the opinions of others, even if it is not always easy. But it is always interesting. And if you do not appreciate the opinions of Robert, you should appreciate his style, which is really perfect ("une idée par paragraphe, un paragraphe par idée", comme disait mon prof de français, à l'époque où la très grande majorité des enseignants se préoccupaient de leurs élèves plus que de leurs - éventuelles - revendications syndicales).

[Maggie G]

Daniel,

A loon is a waterfowl with distinctive black and white markings, found on northern lakes and in the Arctic. It is one of the symbols of Canada -- our one-dollar coin is called a "loonie" because it has a picture of a loon on it, and (to match it) our two-dollar coin is called a 'two-nie'.

The loon's breeding range is nearly all in Canada and even its winter range does not appear to touch much of Arizona (I just checked the map in the bird book).

So when Azloon calls himself "Arizona loon" for "self-explanatory" reasons, I think he must be referring to the expression "crazy as a loon", which comes from the loon's famous wierd, laughing cry.

[Daniel Strohl]

Maggie,

Thank you for your information. Now I have got it ! As we say in French : il vaut mieux tard que jamais (better late than never).

My resident dictionary was right, I was wrong : "plongeon" is the generic
name of several birds of the genus Gavia, and not "an arctic dive" as I have interpreted it. The Canadian variety is probably "gavia arctica".
I had never heard the word "plongeon" with the acceptation of "bird".

We have a book about birds, where I found all this information. My wife loves birds, feeds them on our balcony and makes "conversation" with them through whistling. Most of the time, they answer when she whistles. One of my school comrades, who was a teacher (he is now retired), has a passion for birds. He constructs nests (small "houses" ) for them in the forest. He has always a ladder on top of his (old) car ... When he was younger, he spent his summer holiday in the "Camargue" - it is the delta of the river Rhone in Southern France, where there are many birds - and even more mosquitos!

We have visited a part of Canada (mostly Quebec) with a group about ten years ago. It was very nice, but next time, if ever, we will do it alone. In a group, there are always a few persons which one could spare ...

Our guide was a young girl, very sympathetic, and who had a passion for her country, which I can understand, of course. Her favourite expression was : c'est de toute beauté!

[azloon]

daniel and maggie --

thanks for figuring out, explaining my screen name. it's all correct.

the loon's range doesn't extend to arizona, tho i was absolutely thrilled to discover a wintering artic loon in the sea of cortez/gulf of california (mexico) a few months ago. i was dozing in my camper on a remote beach and heard the distinctive call of the loon. i was so excited, i nearly fell out of my bunk. but i managed to get out to water's edge with my telephoto lens and snapped a few frames. (i'll try to post one later).

i came to love loons when i owned a cabin in northern minnesota, just south of canada. each afternoon i would swim out into my lake and join a 'loon pair" in their swimming activity. i would remain with them for an hour or so, and felt incredibly 'part of nature." they are among the natural wonders of the animal world, especially their myriad "calls" and their antic behavior, often in the middle of the night.. canadians know this, and so does this american. when the movie "dances with wolves" with kevin kostner came out, my friends started to call me "swims with loons." they could have gone all the way and said "is a loon." :)

[Robert Marchenoir]

"Minnesota Statutes, Jurisdiction, Civil Divisions, Chapter 1.

1.145 State bird.

Subdivision 1. Loon. The loon, Gavia immer, is the official bird of the state of Minnesota.

Subd. 2. Photograph. A photograph of the loon shall be preserved in the Office of the Secretary of State."

A state which, by law, has an official bird cannot be all bad.

[Daniel Strohl]

Azloon,

I didn't reach my friend yet regarding golf. But you should have a look at :
http://www.ot-colmar.fr (« ot » stands for Office du Tourisme).

The site is available in French, English and German. The closest golf is at Ammerschwihr - 6 miles from here, in the middle of vineyards and close to other nice Alsatian villages (and cellars = caves in French).

If you intend to come over, please let me know in advance. Meanwhile, if you want to explore (virtually) the region, connect you on :
http://www.viamichelin.fr - this site is very useful when one is planning a travel by car - it gives distances between villages or towns, travel time, hotels etc.

Michelin is a tyre manufacturer and also editor of the well known (at least in Europe) Guide Michelin with hotels and restaurants. They edit also maps and are marketing GPS sets.

Colmar is connected to Paris through a new TGV (Train à Grande Vitesse) since June of this year. We have not yet tested it - may be there are still some bugs ... but I didn't hear anything about this.

PS : there are no loons (with feathers) in the region. Nevertheless, we have got some lakes not too far away - also in the Black Forest, across the river Rhine.

juliette --

judging from you obvious level of stress, perhaps you have been doing too much housework.

does there exist a governmental agency that might send someone to your house to take care of cooking and cleaning while you calm down and