Don't be too familiar, French told

Here is one of those stories that are difficult to convey to people who speak only English. President Sarkozy's government has annoyed the "progressive" sections of the teaching establishment with an order that school pupils must address their teachers with the formal vous rather than the familiar second person singular tu. Teachers are advised to use the respectful vous to Lycée teenagers in their classes.

The orders are part of Sarko's campaign to reimpose respect and civility across French society. Since the 1960s generation threw off formality, some teachers have let pupils tutoie them and most tutoie their younger pupils.  Xavier Darcos, the new Education Minister, said on Tuesday: "It is indispensable that children vouvoient their teachers and preferable that teachers do not use 'tu' with lycée pupils, so that everyone is in their right place." Sarkozy has also ordered police to stop insulting youths on the troubled immigrant housing estates by using the over-familiar "tu".  Teachers hit back today, accusing Darcos of exaggeration, saying that very few allowed pupils to address them as 'tu' .

The fuss illustrates the confusion over the when to tutoie, with its feeling of instant formality, and when to use vous, with its sense of distance and respect. The matter remains a minefield for foreigners and even muddles the French.  Asking On se tutoie?  (shall we use tu) is often a tricky moment with a new acquaintance.

Sarkozy, who has brought a cool touch to the Elysée Palace, committed a gaffe of his own when he visited the German Chancellor in Berlin on his first day of office last week. 

Angela Merkel dropped German formality enough to call him "Lieber (Dear) Nicolas" but stuck to the formal "sie" not the familiar "du". Sarkozy's matey reply jarred on old-fashioned ears. "Chère Angela... J'ai confiance en toi." (In older English I trust thee not you). Libération joked that Franco-German harmony was still lacking. "They are going to have to start by agreeing whether they use tu or vous," it said.

Blair and Sarkozy, who consider themselves friends, tutoie one-another. Gordon Brown's lack of French -- and Sarkozy's poor English -- will remove the problem because they will use interpreters when Brown succeeds Blair.    President Chirac used vous with Blair in public. Blair, who picked up his French working as a Paris barman in  the mid 1970s, tutoied Chirac, who is 20 years his senior. Officials put his over-familiarity down to ignorance. 

[Chirac prided himself on his old-fashioned savoir-vivre, learned in the days when men did not shake the hands of ladies. Here greeting Laura Bush]

The French spread of le tutoiement is relatively modest compared with some neighbours such as Spain where the singular is almost automatic among people of similar age or social class. Some French couples in high bourgeois and aristocratic families still even vouvoie one-another and their children. For anyone much over teenage years, vous is sexier than tu when flirting.

The French adoption of tu, which is the norm in some businesses, has not been universally welcomed. The conservative Figaro complained on Monday that le vouvoiement had been "laid low by rampant tutoiement spreading from the business world's imitation of les Anglo-Saxons and now invading private life."

There is a contradiction in Sarkozy's preference for using 'tu' with everyone around him (including journalists) but ordering vous in the schools.  The rightwing reformer won office with a back-to-tradition campaign that blamed the 1968 student revolt for breaking down French society. "I will liquidate the legacy of May 1968, with its abandonment of moral codes," he promised in the campaign.

Resistance to le tutoiement used to come from the upper classes. The French Revolution tried to ban vous in 1793, under threat of imprisonment.  The late François Mitterrand, whose Socialist colleagues use the comradely tu, was famous for insisting on vous when he became president. An old friend asked if he could still tutoie him and Mitterrand put him down by replying: Si vous voulez. Mitterrand always called his prime ministers Monsieur le Premier Ministre,  François Fillon, the new Prime Minister, says that he and Sarkozy tutoie one-another.   

The trades unions and other sectors say that the systematic tu -- laid down by some firms in company rules -- is a scurrilous plot against the workers. By insisting that everyone is on intimate "tu" terms, the bosses are robbing unions of their dignity and authority, they say. "It is difficult to call each other 'tu' when you are negotiating pay-rises or defending staff who have been sacked," an official with the powerful CGT union told Tribune newspaper this week.

There has been a backlash against the forced jollity of using tu with strangers. Staff at Club Med and other resort companies have given up their post-60s practice of using an egalitarian tu with their vacationing adults.  Now they go half way, using first names but sticking to vous. 

So you see, there are no clear rules but if in doubt say vous.

[policeman correcting his language with youth under orders of Sarkozy's politeness campaign. The crossed-out version reads 'Your (familiar) papers, you little ***'. ] 

Comments

[Dominique]

Charles,

This was a brilliant description of the difficulties we are facing when choosing to use "tu" or "vous".

Always balancing between the will of getting rid of formal bourgeois codes so much hated by the revolutionnary spirit and the may68 movement, and the need of showing respect to someone.

Politness is a protocol. Using this protocol is a way of showing that whatever you are going to say to your counterpart, you respect him. It is like saying "hello how do you do?". Nobody really believe that you care about how this man actually does, but asking about it allows you to start talking only when allowed to by the formal "fine thank you"

"Vous" should be mandatory for policemen.

[Ros]

Here is some useful advice for foreigners coming to live permanently in France - it will be very difficult if you have been using the vuvoiement with your new french friends for several months to be able to change to the tutoiement. This seems incredible but I know , as I fell into the trap myself many years ago - the result being that even now, I still vuvoie (& vice-versa) two of my most intimate friends. I wish we could write in Html on this page - so much more expressive - Charles can play around with his words as he likes (e.g. this article) but not we Bloggers. Someone must wake up The Times !

[Daniel Strohl]

"Vous" should be mandatory for policemen, said Dominique. He is totally right.

But most of the policemen as well as the "ordinary" other French of the same age have been educated at post 68 schools, where formal rules (such as "vouvoiement") were more or less abandoned or even laughed at or despised, including by teachers. Now, we have got the results, and the teachers too. Many of them complain that they are not respected.

If one wants to be respected, it is good practice to show respect first - usually, one then gets the equivalent in return. The teachers have an easy way to show respect : arrive at school right on time, well shaved and cleanly dressed. At school, during working hours, do their teaching as good as they can, abstaining from any political propaganda, right or left; if they want to make union palavers - which of course is their good right - this should be done well after (or before) the working hours.

And, last but not least, if they want to go on strike, they should inform pupils and parents well in advance of their precise intentions.
This is apparently not always the case.

May be I am "un vieux crabe réactionnaire". But life in society does not work without a minimum of (respected) rules.

[Frank Schnittger]

Tu be or not tu be, that is the question!

From an "anglo-saxon" perspective, the very existence of the formal vous or sie can be viewed as an anachronism: Thou died out a long time ago.

On the whole I would support the abolition of the formal vous - there are many other ways to show respect or deference without creating a distinction that only causes confusion and embarassment.

Differential status or social distance doesn't have to be re-emphasized with every sentence. Once established, the language used should be neutral, thus avoiding the awkward moment when one party or the other decides the time is right to move from the formal to the familiar.

There are enough pitfalls in social intercourse without using language as a trap for the unwary. Liberate the people from the tyranny of the distinction!

Liberty, equality, fraternity demands the freedom from class, age and social status distinctions. Is Sarkozy going to condemn the values of the French Revolution as well as 1968?

[Bela]

Ros, the word is 'vouvoyer' (vouvoie, vouvoiement).

I am a 59-year-old French woman. I hate it when strangers say 'tu' to me. Once upon a time, it used to only be foreigners who hadn't learned the 'vous' form of verbs, and that was forgivable. My instinctive response to someone I don't know saying 'tu' to me is, 'What have we kept together? Sheep?' I don't utter it but I think it.

I don't agree that there are no clear rules: as far as I'm concerned, you say 'vous' to everyone until the other person and you both agree to say 'tu' to each other. It's very simple and you always know when the time has come, although I suppose it might be more difficult for non-French people.

I've lived in London for the past 27 years but I was born, went to school and worked in France. None of my teachers ever said 'tu' to me or vice versa. I worked in a university laboratory for two years: we all said 'vous' to each other and shook hands twice a day, every day, yet we were all great friends and went out together, etc. We just respected one another.

When I first moved to the UK I found it extremely difficult to call my bosses and colleagues by their first names. I'm used to it now, of course, but I still think a little formality doesn't hurt.

[Maggie G]

"The fuss illustrates the confusion over the when to tutoie, with its feeling of instant formality, and when to use vous, with its sense of distance and respect".

Shouldn't that be 'instant familiararity', Mr Bremner, not 'instant formality'?

[Maggie]

This is the same dilemma as the newer fashion in English introductions.
The trend of kissing on both cheeks, when first introduced to someone, I hate it & much prefer to shake hands untill I know & like the person.
Presumably it is something imported from across the channel, & from the French, who kiss on greeting someone they know ?
For a people renown for their reserve [ the English] it is a surprising new trend.

[Zertiz]

Being scandinavian I had a lot of difficulty saying "vous" to my teachers (and all other adults) when I came to France some 25 years ago. But I now find myself cringing when I go back north and here youngsters address elderly people by the equivalent of "tu". My son is 5 years old and in his school, he of course says "vous" to his teachers but they also say "vous" to him. I thought it a bit strange at first but now I think it's great. I honestly think the whole "vous" idea, in schools, in the police force etc. is good. I also think it's more important than some think and that it will make a real difference.

[textibule]

In the 25 years that I've lived in France, I've alternately been impressed and appalled by the 'vous/tu' cultural algorithms and the ever-complex job of getting them right.

As an American, who was never taught that 'vous' exists in natural language, yeah, I was appalled by the oh-so 19th-century formalism of saying 'vous' to one's neighbor, dinner companion, or co-worker.

But as I become older and more misanthropic, I increasingly appreciate the power of 'vous' in keeping certain types of people in certain types of encounters at a handy distance.

So, finally, 'vous' is a useful and powerful social tool that is sorely missing in the anglo-saxon dialects :-)

[Alexandra Benedek]

As an adult one uses the second person singular "tu" (or in Hungarian "te") with people one has sweated with, when personal and shared intimacy is earned, established between individuals. Imagine the "confusion", when Hungarian has even a third mode of address, the ultra formal non-invasive THIRD person singular, (capitalised in the accusative declension when written!) - an excellent vehicle by now for being really insulting through the more exaggerated forms of "respect", from maximum personal distance.

[The 3rd column]

Charles,

First name basis and tutoiement (even when addressing the biggest guns) have been part of official corporate policy in the company where I work for the last 5 years or so but just as Ros said, not quite easy to shift from vous to tu; matter of fact, quite difficult to address the biggest boss or the 2nd biggest bosses by their first names and to tutoie them. Between immediate big bosses and underlings, the tutoiement has been de rigeur for a few years now just as Friday is a no tie day in the company and has been corporate policy for the last few years too.

But I do believe that it's good to establish some kind of regulation regarding politesse at school and especially in police work across the board to serve as a kind of social behaviour reference. Must say however that vousvoiement has been SOP in lycées when students address teachers for quite some time now (but not quite sure the other way around); I noticed this in the lycée that my children go to. (Btw, my children have always used vous to me just as I had always used vous to my parents.)

Having said that, people should be allowed room for discernment, to use whatever form of politesse they feel at ease with because on the whole, I find that people (not quite sure about the police though), even the young ones, generally know the form of politesse to use and when.

[Paul E.]

God, this is a minefield for the British with our single "you" for singular and plural.
I remember studying at a University in the north of France and using the familiar "Salut" as opposed to "Bonjour" to a rather stuffy old Prof, out of not being used to using the two forms on a daily basis and not through overfamiliarity. The look he gave me ensured I never made that mistake again, and never used "tu" with him for that matter.

Other problems: going for the wrong cheek first when "faisant les bises" and headbutting some poor french lady; shaking hands to many times a day with the same person, to be informed eventually than once a day is enough.

I wonder what a Frenchman/woman must think of the traditional British greeting of a sly wink, nod of the head or other barely discernable gesture.........

[Sébastien]

Completely agree with Bela: it's really very simple, even for the many non-French speakers who have a similar "vouvoiement" system in their own language.

Frank Schnittger, you haven't really understood. The essential function of le vouvoiement is politeness, not deference. It blurs distinctions, avoiding the immediate assumption of superiority that can sometimes appear with le tutoiement (e.g. when a policeman says "tu" to a complete stranger). In France we tend not to perceive automatic tutoiement as egalitarian (that's why attempts to impose it at the time of the Revolution ended up failing) but as arrogance or hypocrisy on the part of the speaker ("Who is he to make judgments about our relationship?").

Of course, it's different in Quebec. I remember a receptionist in Montreal falling about laughing because I said to her in a convoluted French way: "Vous n'auriez pas l'heure, s'il vous plaît?" Vous? The conditional? A negative? How weird is that? And I thought I was being polite... Vérité en deça des Pyrénées, erreur au-delà.

Daniel Strohl, the fact is that most teachers do NOT ask for tutoiement from their students, and certainly do not want to be tutoyés in return.

[christopher muir]

How lucky the French are to be arguing about such nuances as tu ou vous. Do the French know about the brash Anglo-Saxon call centres? For example:

"Gulag computers...you're talking with Molly. Got your password okay, so how can I help you, Chris?" Chris? That's me, but we've never met.

The surname is disappearing in America, Bangalore and Australia. Mail is rarely printed with a "Miss," Mr," or "Mrs." May France and Germany continue to debate subtle points of courtesy.

[Christina]

This increasingly problematic formal/informal distinction is by no means limited to France.

I lived in Poland for about nine years, and in Slovakia for more than four years. Both Polish and Slovak have the formal/informal distinction as well.

In Eastern Europe, there is also a real trend towards using the informal in situations that up until now would have certainly required the formal -- such as with students or employers/employees.

I suspect this is in part the influence of the Anglo-Saxon world, with which many people have had contact, either personally or through the foreigners living and teaching here.

Even though I am originally from that Anglo-Saxon world myself, I am a firm believer in the maintenance of linguistic formality!

I learned my lesson the hard way in Poland several years ago. After years of working at the University, one of the female employees offered to switch to the informal "Ty" form of address. I agreed -- what could I do?

Soon her treatment of me deteriorated badly, and it was necessary to switch back to the formal form of address -- something even more awkward than making the switch from formal to informal in the first place, believe me!

Now I opt to stick to the formal form of address, such as in my dealings with employers, employees and landlords.

Better safe than sorry!

[Polly]

Page 2 of this week's Le Canard Enchaine has an interesting tidbit.

Apparenlty henceforth in the Conseil des Ministres, they will all be permitted to tutoie each other.

At a meeting on May 18, Sarko turns to Juppe and says "tu as quelque chose a ajouter, Alain?" whereupon Juppe launches into a speech avoiding tuoiement or vousvoiement altogether...

[Irena]

Whether teachers and pupils "tutoient" or "vousvoient" each other will not make the slightest difference to behaviour in the classroom, unfortunately. I think teachers were hoping for a little more from Darcos.

Incidentally, Mary Blume wrote an excellent article in the IHT a few years ago on the whole issue of tu or vous, called "Mastering the Unmasterable: A French Puzzle". I think it was a review of an entertaining and informative book called "Dites-moi tu" by Claude Aubry.

[Bixtie]

FYI regarding this tittle "Et tu Sarkozy", we say in French "Et TOI..." not "Et TU..." :-D

[Pierre Bernardi]

Well spotted Maggie. Frank ought to recognise that 'vous' corresponds to 'you', not 'thou' (meaning 'tu'), which has died out. 'You', like 'vous', does not distinguish between singular and plural. To further his argument, wouldn't it be more logical to abolish 'tu'?

It should also be noted that the Italians seem to do very well with 'tu'. Perhaps 'lei', like 'sie', is altogether too formal?

[Alexandra Benedek]

Adults use the familiar French "tu" (in Hungarian "te") when they have sweated together and established personal trust and intimacy. Imagine the confusion in Hungarian, where an additional level of formality exists, using the third person singular towards your interlocutor. This exaggeratedly "polite" form of address is most useful for being exaggeratedly rude from a safe distance.

[Henk]

I believe 'formality' should be either 'familiarity' or 'informality'

[Dominique]

Franck,

"Differential status or social distance doesn't have to be re-emphasized with every sentence"

This is were i think you get it wrong. "Vous" has nothing to do with the class but with politness. One very rich men from a very old aristocratic family says "vous" when bying it's bread. Saying "tu" would be a lack of respect.

[Paul, Charlottesville,Virginia]

As an "Anglo-Saxon" I found the use of du (informal) vs. De (formal) in Norwegian very troublesome 40 years ago. This has changed radically since then and "du" is widely used even to complete strangers especially by young people. I was totally converted to exclusively using "du" after seeing Queen Sonja of Norway interviewed on TV by an interviewer using "du" to the Queen (she also used "du" but I suppose that was her prerogative) Recently I asked some medical colleagues in Norway about their usages - all but one had largely stopped using the formal "De". The one exception used it with elderly patients. One form for "you" removes a tricky social problem. Even native speakers of these various languages are troubled by the formal vs. informal usage.

[Dominique]

One fine example of the issue was pointed at the last meeting between Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy. It was pointed at the last "Arret sur Image". They both do not speak each other language, but pretend to be "buddies". So, our Sarko, a true "éléphant dans un magasin de porcelaine" said during the press conference "Angela, je TE fais confiance" therefore amphasizing on the informal "tu" he wanted us to believe he was using with her. The repply was a german delight, with Angela Merkel saying "President Sarkozy, SIE haben dass und dass gesagt etc..." using the german formal "Sie" equivalent to "vous".

That means that eventhough both languages have the formal/informal distinction, they might be mistakes. It also show than spin also apply here. Sarko can not say "tu" to Angla because they just do not speak the same language. So, he was, as always, trying to manipulate us.

I wonder how the translators do. When Sarko says "tu" to Angela, and when the translator feels he should not says "tu" himself to the German kanzler, he probably goes with a delightfull :

"Entshuldigen Sie mir bitte, aber während unsere reunion werde ich "du" benutzen, weill der französiche Präsident so macht"

"Would you be so kind to escuse me, but i will have to go with the informal "du" because the french president is doing so".

Translator for head of state must be quite a job! no declaration of war by mistake please!!

[Dominique]

Addendum : I know why Sarko used "tu" with Angela! He just did not even notice she was using "Sie" as he often does not listen to anyone anyway...

OK OK, that was an easy one...

[Richard Black, Paris]

Isn't it simply good manners or common politeness to address people as they would like to be addressed within reason ? And it's courteous to be invited to be more intimate rather than impose it whether in speech or physical greeting (handshake or kissing).

My experience in France is that a great number of people still teach their children to be polite. For example to say "Bonjour Monsieur" or "Bonjour Madame" instead of just "Bonjour". It is common practice to offer a general greeting on entering a doctor's waiting room, small shop etc for exmaple. I find it quite civilised and uplifting that people are still prepared to make this effort.

In England this common politeness seems to have completely disappeared. If you are polite to others people look at you as if you are from another planet. I do not find it friendly to be addressed by my first name uninvited; I find it impertinent. If it didn't make me sound like Derek from "The Catherine Tate Show" I would be tempted to say "How very dare you !"

And I'm only 40 years old not grumpy 96 year old retired army colonel !!

[Richard Black, Paris]

I don't claim to have any particular talent, but cannot remember any occasions when I might have found it difficult to choose between "vous" and "tu" in France.

In English the same effect is achieved by a more subtle combination of accent, pronunciation, tone, and vocabulary. These devices are much less in French to this aim.

[thinknoworpaylater]

This question of gframmar is all beside the point. The question is one of power. Why do none of you mention Foucault? He has been around for 40 yrs. (now dead) It was he who raised the question of power (the ability to control) interms of knowledge and information. We have to get beyond language structures to to the societal values that regard mutual dignity as normal. (And lets have no more shitole Rocket) As for hypocrisy (going back to an earlier blog)- the problem of hypocrisy is not merely a feature of Anglophone culture but rather to do with the differences between cultures over the degree of compartmentilization of social processes, aspects of identity, etc. There is , arguably, a direct connection brtween Protestant thought and the idea of a totalizing coherence in all aspects of life, but it has its roots in ancient Christianity and Humanism (and Catholicism of course for French readers). Behind it lies the idea of the but then there are clearly problems with such an idea, not least the different roles people play in life ( father journalist son lover etc) but the idea of of greater or lesser degrees of compartmentalization is the point. This is not a left wing point of view. It is an anthropological idea. Tu comprend? These different psychologies (feelings as well as thoughts) are difficult for members of different cultures to inhabit, to live out. Perhaps only peoplewho can attempt such integrations (however mistaken) have the right to live that life, but it does not give them the right to impose that view on others. Wer are not all members of monastic orders (thank God) Hypocrisy, as I understand it, is saying one thing and doing another. I"m pretty sure that in the caseof Hollande Sego Sarko Cecilia ,etc the real situation is known to all the participants. That is why your French bloggers cannot respond as your American bloggers expect them to.

[Teacher]

Bixtie,

ET TU is not French, but Latin. The headline is a reference to the words Shakespeare puts in Julius Caesar's mouth as he realises he is being betrayed by his adopted son Brutus:
Et tu, Brute? ("Even you, Brutus?")
Sorry, my "déformation professionnelle" obliged me to set you right.

[Daniel Strohl]

"Cher Charles,

Votre article est intéressant et bien fait et les diverses observations de vos lecteurs sont fort pertinentes".

May be the above formulation is a good compromise between all
opinions :

"Cher Charles" : because everybody here has the feeling to know and appreciate Charles since a long time

"Votre article" : because this "long time" does not entitle us to be all too "familier".

But since I am trying to be somewhat more modern, I will continue to use the address "Charles" as I did before.

[John Gregory Flinn]

I understand that the singular 'tu' is (also) used for animals and pets - dogs, cats etc.

I've always felt safer with 'vous', the verb ending '-ez' (usually accompanying it) is also pretty standard.

In south America the polite form of address between adults is in the third person 'usted', which translates as 'your honour'.
I suppose the French 'on' is equivalent.

The english 'you' can be ambiguous about singular or plural at times, the Americans can be heard to use the form 'you all' to overcome this!

However I'm not convinced that form of address can imbue respect in schools. Anatole Kaletsky has an interesting comment on this subject in today's 'Times'.

[Little Big Horn]

If the Anglo-Saxon had in their language the tactful "vouvoiement" , which marks a distance, a difference, the fact that the Other (an Anglo-Saxon, an Iraqi, a woman, an old person, a teacher, or a student for a teacher), is not necessarily the same as oneself (a coarse attitude), maybe they would not use this blog to explain to themselves what France should be (i.e. an Anglo-Saxon country) and would accept that Life produces differences. But respect doesn't bring any money nowadays. Only war and imperialism (capitalism) does.
And respect another country means you still have dignity for yourself.

I ask it again: do the French tolerant people ask you to become French and adopt their "stalinist" system?

[Christoph]

Would you mind dropping this “Anglo-Saxon” nonsense, they died out years ago. I think what you mean is “English speaker”.

English Speakers are in fact so formal they dropped the tu (thou) form 300 years ago, and say vous (you) even to children and animals.

English speakers typically when attempting to speak French do the same, and say ‘vous’ in many inappropriate situations, to children, etc.

[Valentin]

"In south America the polite form of address between adults is in the third person 'usted', which translates as 'your honour'.
I suppose the French 'on' is equivalent."

Not really, there's no French equivalent. Italian like Spanish though, say
"E come lei, signora, dice bene, non tutti vorranno averla."

"dice" here is in the 3rd person singular. Just as correct and polite would be:
"E come voi, signora, dite bene...", plural 2nd person.

Thinking better though, the old aristocratic French address was actually in the 3rd person singular too:

"Monsieur me fera-t-il l'honneur d'y assister ? dit-il en s'adressant à Andrea." (Balzac)

[Otto tomasch]

In German we say: It is easier to say "Du A**", than "Sie A**".

Therefore, in case of doubt about a person`s behavior after allowing him to `duzen` you, stay with him `per Sie`!

[Pierre Gardin]

>>>I ask it again: do the French tolerant people ask you to become French and adopt their "stalinist" system?

I'm a French, tolerant person and I disagree with the above racist comment ...

[john]

Well, in English there also exist tu and vous. Take Blair for instance. You can either vouvoyer him:
"Mr. Blair, how do you reckon we should..."

or you can tutoyer him, as his pal George W. often does:
"Yo Blair! What d'ya think we should..."

Note that this is American tutoiement, but you can also use the more old-fashioned British tutoiement (Duke of Edinburgh's accent needed here):
"Blair old chap, what do you bloody think we should..."

And I'm not even going into Indian English, whose subtleties are way beyond my modest knowledge.

[MCD of USA]

"life produces differences".

"I ask again: do the French tolerant people ask you to become and adopt their "stalinist" system?"

I can't think of any other western country that is so intolerant of the American differences in dress, language, food, politics, culture, and, well...basically everything.

I wouldn't dare step foot in their country out of fear I will offend them by saying the wrong word, not saying the right word, not addressing them first, addressing them first, looking at them the wrong way, ect., ect. I'd be less stressed stepping into Iran.

[Rob]

I have worked in bars in Paris for the last 15 years and still revel in my ignorance..I get away the "tu" and "vous" and absolutely refuse to learn what sex an object is...my "bite" is definitley NOT feminine. I love being an Irish man in Paris as I get respect for speaking french/franglais and get to poke at the idiosyncrasies of the french language.

[Helene]

One thing has not been mentioned here: the indescribable frisson of addressing somebody with whom you are secretly intimate as "vous" in front of others who are ignorant of that intimacy. Delicious. English, so marvellous in many respects, has nothing like it.

[Conor]

Although I am a native English speaker I knew about the tu/vous concept when I moved to Austria and learned German. I had learned the rules in business in Italy. However the rules governing when to us Du and Sie was clearly different to the border between tu and Lei in Italian. But where was the border in Austrian social intercourse? My solution: to engage in verbal gymnastics and studiously avoid the words Du and Sie and their grammatical accompaniments altogether. It is still not always clear which is right. In fact, it differs regionally in Austria. In Vienna it's formal. In Tyrol, the bus driver greeted me in the Du form. Anyway, the initial verbal hoops I had to jump through to avoid using the wrong words helped me become proficient in the language more quickly.

[Gary Giumarra]

There seems to be a bit of confusion on the part of our English speakers here. Just because thou/thee sounds stilted to us nowadays people suppose it was the more formal form, but it is the other way around.

"From an "anglo-saxon" perspective, the very existence of the formal vous or sie [actually Sie] can be viewed as an anachronism: Thou died out a long time ago."

or

"As an American, who was never taught that 'vous' exists in natural language, yeah, I was appalled by the oh-so 19th-century formalism of saying 'vous' to one's neighbor, dinner companion, or co-worker."

But you are using the equivalent of "vous" (or "Sie") when you use the pronoun "you." It was the familiar form of "thou" and "ye" (plural) that died out in English with the formal "you" {"vous/Sie", both of which can be singular or plural, just like "you") remaining.

[Costanzia]

Sorry Monsieur Bremmer, it sounds better 'Et toi, Sarkozy?' in French. And, 'tutoyer' and 'vouvoyer' are the infinitive form of these verbs. I hope the French learn to vouvoyer again, France was a more distinctive country when she was polite and thus, the language of diplomacy. Mr Bremmer, I always like your refreshing news from France.

[Ian]

There was this thing in French films where the hero always vousvoie'd his intended catch until he had seduced her, after which he instantly tutoie'd her. As you never actually saw the seduction act itself, the director made you aware it had happened by changing the form of address!

[Richard Black, Paris]

The correct term for addressing a person in the "vous" form is in fact voussoyer or vousoyer - both spellings are permitted - and NOT vouvoyer even though the latter is used more commonly.

I offer this as information not as an invitation to be denounced as a linguistic pedant....

[david]

The same issue arises in other European languages: Romanians say "Dumneavoastra" (your lordship) for 'vous', and Poles say Pan (male), Pani (female), and Panstwo (plural), all with seven inflected cases from nominative to instrumental ("with you (sing.) = z panem (male) z pania (female), z panstwem (pl.)) The word 'Pan' means 'Lord'. It is still a fearful social gaffe in Poland to use the 'ty' (tu) form without prior permission, except in the army. Oh, and Pan/Pani/Panstwo always is used with a capital letter ! (So much for the egalitarianism that Communism was supposed to establish !)

In contrast, Russian simply uses the 'vy' (vous) form with 'ty' (tu) to show either familiarity or contempt. Slovene uses the 'gospod' (Lord) third person form too on initial social contact, whereas Serbian and Croatian use 'vy' (vous).

[Kevin]

Lost in the commentary "blaming" the excessive or inappropriate use of "tu" on "les anglo-saxones" is the fact that English went to the near-exclusive use of "you" -- the formal second person singular in English -- hundreds of years ago. Thee and thou, which now exist on in the King James Bible, Mennonite communities, and a Weird Al Yankovich song, are the familiar forms.

The Brits and we Americans determined to treat everyone with greater respect centuries ago, avoiding this du-sie, tu-vous, tu-usted, etc controversy.

A lesson for Europe from the Anglophones, perhaps?

[Jean-Christophe]

>>Sorry Monsieur Bremmer, it sounds better 'Et toi, Sarkozy?' in French.>>
No, no ;*) I think here we have a reference to Julius Caesar (Et tu coque me filio).
The British social relations may be more relaxed on the surface, but i think that overall, especially with the obsession with expensive private schools, etc., they are far more formal than us French.
After all "Would you like a cup of tea" and "Fancy a cup of T" infer a kind of formality/informality very close to tu/vous.

[Mat]

Two points - firstly I'm not a fan of Arielle Dombasle, but I like her take - 'vous' is breathy, while 'tu' is spat. I don't need to tell you which I find sexier!
Secondly, in conversation my rule is if I know you, or if you're much younger than me, I tutoie. If I don't know you, or you're the same age/older, I vousvoie. The only exception is the parents of my French girlfriend - obligatory vousvoie.
For me this is easy because I don't feel the uncomfortableness of 'on tutoie?' because I'm a native English speaker, but I know it can be an issue in certain circles.
Cheers!

[John Hornsby]

Now at last I have discovered why I was never much of a Casanova: I should have used "Vous" to prospective conquests! After thirty years in the country I still find it awkward when in a group one has to address some with the "vous" form and others with "tu".