Don't be too familiar, French told

Here is one of those stories that are difficult to convey to people who speak only English. President Sarkozy's government has annoyed the "progressive" sections of the teaching establishment with an order that school pupils must address their teachers with the formal vous rather than the familiar second person singular tu. Teachers are advised to use the respectful vous to Lycée teenagers in their classes.

The orders are part of Sarko's campaign to reimpose respect and civility across French society. Since the 1960s generation threw off formality, some teachers have let pupils tutoie them and most tutoie their younger pupils.  Xavier Darcos, the new Education Minister, said on Tuesday: "It is indispensable that children vouvoient their teachers and preferable that teachers do not use 'tu' with lycée pupils, so that everyone is in their right place." Sarkozy has also ordered police to stop insulting youths on the troubled immigrant housing estates by using the over-familiar "tu".  Teachers hit back today, accusing Darcos of exaggeration, saying that very few allowed pupils to address them as 'tu' .

The fuss illustrates the confusion over the when to tutoie, with its feeling of instant formality, and when to use vous, with its sense of distance and respect. The matter remains a minefield for foreigners and even muddles the French.  Asking On se tutoie?  (shall we use tu) is often a tricky moment with a new acquaintance.

Sarkozy, who has brought a cool touch to the Elysée Palace, committed a gaffe of his own when he visited the German Chancellor in Berlin on his first day of office last week. 

Angela Merkel dropped German formality enough to call him "Lieber (Dear) Nicolas" but stuck to the formal "sie" not the familiar "du". Sarkozy's matey reply jarred on old-fashioned ears. "Chère Angela... J'ai confiance en toi." (In older English I trust thee not you). Libération joked that Franco-German harmony was still lacking. "They are going to have to start by agreeing whether they use tu or vous," it said.

Blair and Sarkozy, who consider themselves friends, tutoie one-another. Gordon Brown's lack of French -- and Sarkozy's poor English -- will remove the problem because they will use interpreters when Brown succeeds Blair.    President Chirac used vous with Blair in public. Blair, who picked up his French working as a Paris barman in  the mid 1970s, tutoied Chirac, who is 20 years his senior. Officials put his over-familiarity down to ignorance. 

[Chirac prided himself on his old-fashioned savoir-vivre, learned in the days when men did not shake the hands of ladies. Here greeting Laura Bush]

The French spread of le tutoiement is relatively modest compared with some neighbours such as Spain where the singular is almost automatic among people of similar age or social class. Some French couples in high bourgeois and aristocratic families still even vouvoie one-another and their children. For anyone much over teenage years, vous is sexier than tu when flirting.

The French adoption of tu, which is the norm in some businesses, has not been universally welcomed. The conservative Figaro complained on Monday that le vouvoiement had been "laid low by rampant tutoiement spreading from the business world's imitation of les Anglo-Saxons and now invading private life."

There is a contradiction in Sarkozy's preference for using 'tu' with everyone around him (including journalists) but ordering vous in the schools.  The rightwing reformer won office with a back-to-tradition campaign that blamed the 1968 student revolt for breaking down French society. "I will liquidate the legacy of May 1968, with its abandonment of moral codes," he promised in the campaign.

Resistance to le tutoiement used to come from the upper classes. The French Revolution tried to ban vous in 1793, under threat of imprisonment.  The late François Mitterrand, whose Socialist colleagues use the comradely tu, was famous for insisting on vous when he became president. An old friend asked if he could still tutoie him and Mitterrand put him down by replying: Si vous voulez. Mitterrand always called his prime ministers Monsieur le Premier Ministre,  François Fillon, the new Prime Minister, says that he and Sarkozy tutoie one-another.   

The trades unions and other sectors say that the systematic tu -- laid down by some firms in company rules -- is a scurrilous plot against the workers. By insisting that everyone is on intimate "tu" terms, the bosses are robbing unions of their dignity and authority, they say. "It is difficult to call each other 'tu' when you are negotiating pay-rises or defending staff who have been sacked," an official with the powerful CGT union told Tribune newspaper this week.

There has been a backlash against the forced jollity of using tu with strangers. Staff at Club Med and other resort companies have given up their post-60s practice of using an egalitarian tu with their vacationing adults.  Now they go half way, using first names but sticking to vous. 

So you see, there are no clear rules but if in doubt say vous.

[policeman correcting his language with youth under orders of Sarkozy's politeness campaign. The crossed-out version reads 'Your (familiar) papers, you little ***'. ] 

Comments

[Dominique]

Charles,

This was a brilliant description of the difficulties we are facing when choosing to use "tu" or "vous".

Always balancing between the will of getting rid of formal bourgeois codes so much hated by the revolutionnary spirit and the may68 movement, and the need of showing respect to someone.

Politness is a protocol. Using this protocol is a way of showing that whatever you are going to say to your counterpart, you respect him. It is like saying "hello how do you do?". Nobody really believe that you care about how this man actually does, but asking about it allows you to start talking only when allowed to by the formal "fine thank you"

"Vous" should be mandatory for policemen.

[Ros]

Here is some useful advice for foreigners coming to live permanently in France - it will be very difficult if you have been using the vuvoiement with your new french friends for several months to be able to change to the tutoiement. This seems incredible but I know , as I fell into the trap myself many years ago - the result being that even now, I still vuvoie (& vice-versa) two of my most intimate friends. I wish we could write in Html on this page - so much more expressive - Charles can play around with his words as he likes (e.g. this article) but not we Bloggers. Someone must wake up The Times !

[Daniel Strohl]

"Vous" should be mandatory for policemen, said Dominique. He is totally right.

But most of the policemen as well as the "ordinary" other French of the same age have been educated at post 68 schools, where formal rules (such as "vouvoiement") were more or less abandoned or even laughed at or despised, including by teachers. Now, we have got the results, and the teachers too. Many of them complain that they are not respected.

If one wants to be respected, it is good practice to show respect first - usually, one then gets the equivalent in return. The teachers have an easy way to show respect : arrive at school right on time, well shaved and cleanly dressed. At school, during working hours, do their teaching as good as they can, abstaining from any political propaganda, right or left; if they want to make union palavers - which of course is their good right - this should be done well after (or before) the working hours.

And, last but not least, if they want to go on strike, they should inform pupils and parents well in advance of their precise intentions.
This is apparently not always the case.

May be I am "un vieux crabe réactionnaire". But life in society does not work without a minimum of (respected) rules.

[Frank Schnittger]

Tu be or not tu be, that is the question!

From an "anglo-saxon" perspective, the very existence of the formal vous or sie can be viewed as an anachronism: Thou died out a long time ago.

On the whole I would support the abolition of the formal vous - there are many other ways to show respect or deference without creating a distinction that only causes confusion and embarassment.

Differential status or social distance doesn't have to be re-emphasized with every sentence. Once established, the language used should be neutral, thus avoiding the awkward moment when one party or the other decides the time is right to move from the formal to the familiar.

There are enough pitfalls in social intercourse without using language as a trap for the unwary. Liberate the people from the tyranny of the distinction!

Liberty, equality, fraternity demands the freedom from class, age and social status distinctions. Is Sarkozy going to condemn the values of the French Revolution as well as 1968?

[Bela]

Ros, the word is 'vouvoyer' (vouvoie, vouvoiement).

I am a 59-year-old French woman. I hate it when strangers say 'tu' to me. Once upon a time, it used to only be foreigners who hadn't learned the 'vous' form of verbs, and that was forgivable. My instinctive response to someone I don't know saying 'tu' to me is, 'What have we kept together? Sheep?' I don't utter it but I think it.

I don't agree that there are no clear rules: as far as I'm concerned, you say 'vous' to everyone until the other person and you both agree to say 'tu' to each other. It's very simple and you always know when the time has come, although I suppose it might be more difficult for non-French people.

I've lived in London for the past 27 years but I was born, went to school and worked in France. None of my teachers ever said 'tu' to me or vice versa. I worked in a university laboratory for two years: we all said 'vous' to each other and shook hands twice a day, every day, yet we were all great friends and went out together, etc. We just respected one another.

When I first moved to the UK I found it extremely difficult to call my bosses and colleagues by their first names. I'm used to it now, of course, but I still think a little formality doesn't hurt.

[Maggie G]

"The fuss illustrates the confusion over the when to tutoie, with its feeling of instant formality, and when to use vous, with its sense of distance and respect".

Shouldn't that be 'instant familiararity', Mr Bremner, not 'instant formality'?

[Maggie]

This is the same dilemma as the newer fashion in English introductions.
The trend of kissing on both cheeks, when first introduced to someone, I hate it & much prefer to shake hands untill I know & like the person.
Presumably it is something imported from across the channel, & from the French, who kiss on greeting someone they know ?
For a people renown for their reserve [ the English] it is a surprising new trend.

[Zertiz]

Being scandinavian I had a lot of difficulty saying "vous" to my teachers (and all other adults) when I came to France some 25 years ago. But I now find myself cringing when I go back north and here youngsters address elderly people by the equivalent of "tu". My son is 5 years old and in his school, he of course says "vous" to his teachers but they also say "vous" to him. I thought it a bit strange at first but now I think it's great. I honestly think the whole "vous" idea, in schools, in the police force etc. is good. I also think it's more important than some think and that it will make a real difference.

[textibule]

In the 25 years that I've lived in France, I've alternately been impressed and appalled by the 'vous/tu' cultural algorithms and the ever-complex job of getting them right.

As an American, who was never taught that 'vous' exists in natural language, yeah, I was appalled by the oh-so 19th-century formalism of saying 'vous' to one's neighbor, dinner companion, or co-worker.

But as I become older and more misanthropic, I increasingly appreciate the power of 'vous' in keeping certain types of people in certain types of encounters at a handy distance.

So, finally, 'vous' is a useful and powerful social tool that is sorely missing in the anglo-saxon dialects :-)

[Alexandra Benedek]

As an adult one uses the second person singular "tu" (or in Hungarian "te") with people one has sweated with, when personal and shared intimacy is earned, established between individuals. Imagine the "confusion", when Hungarian has even a third mode of address, the ultra formal non-invasive THIRD person singular, (capitalised in the accusative declension when written!) - an excellent vehicle by now for being really insulting through the more exaggerated forms of "respect", from maximum personal distance.

[The 3rd column]

Charles,

First name basis and tutoiement (even when addressing the biggest guns) have been part of official corporate policy in the company where I work for the last 5 years or so but just as Ros said, not quite easy to shift from vous to tu; matter of fact, quite difficult to address the biggest boss or the 2nd biggest bosses by their first names and to tutoie them. Between immediate big bosses and underlings, the tutoiement has been de rigeur for a few years now just as Friday is a no tie day in the company and has been corporate policy for the last few years too.

But I do believe that it's good to establish some kind of regulation regarding politesse at school and especially in police work across the board to serve as a kind of social behaviour reference. Must say however that vousvoiement has been SOP in lycées when students address teachers for quite some time now (but not quite sure the other way around); I noticed this in the lycée that my children go to. (Btw, my children have always used vous to me just as I had always used vous to my parents.)

Having said that, people should be allowed room for discernment, to use whatever form of politesse they feel at ease with because on the whole, I find that people (not quite sure about the police though), even the young ones, generally know the form of politesse to use and when.

[Paul E.]

God, this is a minefield for the British with our single "you" for singular and plural.
I remember studying at a University in the north of France and using the familiar "Salut" as opposed to "Bonjour" to a rather stuffy old Prof, out of not being used to using the two forms on a daily basis and not through overfamiliarity. The look he gave me ensured I never made that mistake again, and never used "tu" with him for that matter.

Other problems: going for the wrong cheek first when "faisant les bises" and headbutting some poor french lady; shaking hands to many times a day with the same person, to be informed eventually than once a day is enough.

I wonder what a Frenchman/woman must think of the traditional British greeting of a sly wink, nod of the head or other barely discernable gesture.........

[Sébastien]

Completely agree with Bela: it's really very simple, even for the many non-French speakers who have a similar "vouvoiement" system in their own language.

Frank Schnittger, you haven't really understood. The essential function of le vouvoiement is politeness, not deference. It blurs distinctions, avoiding the immediate assumption of superiority that can sometimes appear with le tutoiement (e.g. when a policeman says "tu" to a complete stranger). In France we tend not to perceive automatic tutoiement as egalitarian (that's why attempts to impose it at the time of the Revolution ended up failing) but as arrogance or hypocrisy on the part of the speaker ("Who is he to make judgments about our relationship?").

Of course, it's different in Quebec. I remember a receptionist in Montreal falling about laughing because I said to her in a convoluted French way: "Vous n'auriez pas l'heure, s'il vous plaît?" Vous? The conditional? A negative? How weird is that? And I thought I was being polite... Vérité en deça des Pyrénées, erreur au-delà.

Daniel Strohl, the fact is that most teachers do NOT ask for tutoiement from their students, and certainly do not want to be tutoyés in return.

[christopher muir]

How lucky the French are to be arguing about such nuances as tu ou vous. Do the French know about the brash Anglo-Saxon call centres? For example:

"Gulag computers...you're talking with Molly. Got your password okay, so how can I help you, Chris?" Chris? That's me, but we've never met.

The surname is disappearing in America, Bangalore and Australia. Mail is rarely printed with a "Miss," Mr," or "Mrs." May France and Germany continue to debate subtle points of courtesy.

[Christina]

This increasingly problematic formal/informal distinction is by no means limited to France.

I lived in Poland for about nine years, and in Slovakia for more than four years. Both Polish and Slovak have the formal/informal distinction as well.

In Eastern Europe, there is also a real trend towards using the informal in situations that up until now would have certainly required the formal -- such as with students or employers/employees.

I suspect this is in part the influence of the Anglo-Saxon world, with which many people have had contact, either personally or through the foreigners living and teaching here.

Even though I am originally from that Anglo-Saxon world myself, I am a firm believer in the maintenance of linguistic formality!

I learned my lesson the hard way in Poland several years ago. After years of working at the University, one of the female employees offered to switch to the informal "Ty" form of address. I agreed -- what could I do?

Soon her treatment of me deteriorated badly, and it was necessary to switch back to the formal form of address -- something even more awkward than making the switch from formal to informal in the first place, believe me!

Now I opt to stick to the formal form of address, such as in my dealings with employers, employees and landlords.

Better safe than sorry!

[Polly]

Page 2 of this week's Le Canard Enchaine has an interesting tidbit.

Apparenlty henceforth in the Conseil des Ministres, they will all be permitted to tutoie each other.

At a meeting on May 18, Sarko turns to Juppe and says "tu as quelque chose a ajouter, Alain?" whereupon Juppe launches into a speech avoiding tuoiement or vousvoiement altogether...

[Irena]

Whether teachers and pupils "tutoient" or "vousvoient" each other will not make the slightest difference to behaviour in the classroom, unfortunately. I think teachers were hoping for a little more from Darcos.

Incidentally, Mary Blume wrote an excellent article in the IHT a few years ago on the whole issue of tu or vous, called "Mastering the Unmasterable: A French Puzzle". I think it was a review of an entertaining and informative book called "Dites-moi tu" by Claude Aubry.

[Bixtie]

FYI regarding this tittle "Et tu Sarkozy", we say in French "Et TOI..." not "Et TU..." :-D

[Pierre Bernardi]

Well spotted Maggie. Frank ought to recognise that 'vous' corresponds to 'you', not 'thou' (meaning 'tu'), which has died out. 'You', like 'vous', does not distinguish between singular and plural. To further his argument, wouldn't it be more logical to abolish 'tu'?

It should also be noted that the Italians seem to do very well with 'tu'. Perhaps 'lei', like 'sie', is altogether too formal?

[Alexandra Benedek]

Adults use the familiar French "tu" (in Hungarian "te") when they have sweated together and established personal trust and intimacy. Imagine the confusion in Hungarian, where an additional level of formality exists, using the third person singular towards your interlocutor. This exaggeratedly "polite" form of address is most useful for being exaggeratedly rude from a safe distance.

[Henk]

I believe 'formality' should be either 'familiarity' or 'informality'

[Dominique]

Franck,

"Differential status or social distance doesn't have to be re-emphasized with every sentence"

This is were i think you get it wrong. "Vous" has nothing to do with the class but with politness. One very rich men from a very old aristocratic family says "vous" when bying it's bread. Saying "tu" would be a lack of respect.

[Paul, Charlottesville,Virginia]

As an "Anglo-Saxon" I found the use of du (informal) vs. De (formal) in Norwegian very troublesome 40 years ago. This has changed radically since then and "du" is widely used even to complete strangers especially by young people. I was totally converted to exclusively using "du" after seeing Queen Sonja of Norway interviewed on TV by an interviewer using "du" to the Queen (she also used "du" but I suppose that was her prerogative) Recently I asked some medical colleagues in Norway about their usages - all but one had largely stopped using the formal "De". The one exception used it with elderly patients. One form for "you" removes a tricky social problem. Even native speakers of these various languages are troubled by the formal vs. informal usage.

[Dominique]

One fine example of the issue was pointed at the last meeting between Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy. It was pointed at the last "Arret sur Image". They both do not speak each other language, but pretend to be "buddies". So, our Sarko, a true "éléphant dans un magasin de porcelaine" said during the press conference "Angela, je TE fais confiance" therefore amphasizing on the informal "tu" he wanted us to believe he was using with her. The repply was a german delight, with Angela Merkel saying "President Sarkozy, SIE haben dass und dass gesagt etc..." using the german formal "Sie" equivalent to "vous".

That means that eventhough both languages have the formal/informal distinction, they might be mistakes. It also show than spin also apply here. Sarko can not say "tu" to Angla because they just do not speak the same language. So, he was, as always, trying to manipulate us.

I wonder how the translators do. When Sarko says "tu" to Angela, and when the translator feels he should not says "tu" himself to the German kanzler, he probably goes with a delightfull :

"Entshuldigen Sie mir bitte, aber während unsere reunion werde ich "du" benutzen, weill der französiche Präsident so macht"

"Would you be so kind to escuse me, but i will have to go with the informal "du" because the french president is doing so".

Translator for head of state must be quite a job! no declaration of war by mistake please!!

[Dominique]

Addendum : I know why Sarko used "tu" with Angela! He just did not even notice she was using "Sie" as he often does not listen to anyone anyway...

OK OK, that was an easy one...

[Richard Black, Paris]

Isn't it simply good manners or common politeness to address people as they would like to be addressed within reason ? And it's courteous to be invited to be more intimate rather than impose it whether in speech or physical greeting (handshake or kissing).

My experience in France is that a great number of people still teach their children to be polite. For example to say "Bonjour Monsieur" or "Bonjour Madame" instead of just "Bonjour". It is common practice to offer a general greeting on entering a doctor's waiting room, small shop etc for exmaple. I find it quite civilised and uplifting that people are still prepared to make this effort.

In England this common politeness seems to have completely disappeared. If you are polite to others people look at you as if you are from another planet. I do not find it friendly to be addressed by my first name uninvited; I find it impertinent. If it didn't make me sound like Derek from "The Catherine Tate Show" I would be tempted to say "How very dare you !"

And I'm only 40 years old not grumpy 96 year old retired army colonel !!

[Richard Black, Paris]

I don't claim to have any particular talent, but cannot remember any occasions when I might have found it difficult to choose between "vous" and "tu" in France.

In English the same effect is achieved by a more subtle combination of accent, pronunciation, tone, and vocabulary. These devices are much less in French to this aim.

[thinknoworpaylater]

This question of gframmar is all beside the point. The question is one of power. Why do none of you mention Foucault? He has been around for 40 yrs. (now dead) It was he who raised the question of power (the ability to control) interms of knowledge and information. We have to get beyond language structures to to the societal values that regard mutual dignity as normal. (And lets have no more shitole Rocket) As for hypocrisy (going back to an earlier blog)- the problem of hypocrisy is not merely a feature of Anglophone culture but rather to do with the differences between cultures over the degree of compartmentilization of social processes, aspects of identity, etc. There is , arguably, a direct connection brtween Protestant thought and the idea of a totalizing coherence in all aspects of life, but it has its roots in ancient Christianity and Humanism (and Catholicism of course for French readers). Behind it lies the idea of the but then there are clearly problems with such an idea, not least the different roles people play in life ( father journalist son lover etc) but the idea of of greater or lesser degrees of compartmentalization is the point. This is not a left wing point of view. It is an anthropological idea. Tu comprend? These different psychologies (feelings as well as thoughts) are difficult for members of different cultures to inhabit, to live out. Perhaps only peoplewho can attempt such integrations (however mistaken) have the right to live that life, but it does not give them the right to impose that view on others. Wer are not all members of monastic orders (thank God) Hypocrisy, as I understand it, is saying one thing and doing another. I"m pretty sure that in the caseof Hollande Sego Sarko Cecilia ,etc the real situation is known to all the participants. That is why your French bloggers cannot respond as your American bloggers expect them to.

[Teacher]

Bixtie,

ET TU is not French, but Latin. The headline is a reference to the words Shakespeare puts in Julius Caesar's mouth as he realises he is being betrayed by his adopted son Brutus:
Et tu, Brute? ("Even you, Brutus?")
Sorry, my "déformation professionnelle" obliged me to set you right.

[Daniel Strohl]

"Cher Charles,

Votre article est intéressant et bien fait et les diverses observations de vos lecteurs sont fort pertinentes".

May be the above formulation is a good compromise between all
opinions :

"Cher Charles" : because everybody here has the feeling to know and appreciate Charles since a long time

"Votre article" : because this "long time" does not entitle us to be all too "familier".

But since I am trying to be somewhat more modern, I will continue to use the address "Charles" as I did before.

[John Gregory Flinn]

I understand that the singular 'tu' is (also) used for animals and pets - dogs, cats etc.

I've always felt safer with 'vous', the verb ending '-ez' (usually accompanying it) is also pretty standard.

In south America the polite form of address between adults is in the third person 'usted', which translates as 'your honour'.
I suppose the French 'on' is equivalent.

The english 'you' can be ambiguous about singular or plural at times, the Americans can be heard to use the form 'you all' to overcome this!

However I'm not convinced that form of address can imbue respect in schools. Anatole Kaletsky has an interesting comment on this subject in today's 'Times'.

[Little Big Horn]

If the Anglo-Saxon had in their language the tactful "vouvoiement" , which marks a distance, a difference, the fact that the Other (an Anglo-Saxon, an Iraqi, a woman, an old person, a teacher, or a student for a teacher), is not necessarily the same as oneself (a coarse attitude), maybe they would not use this blog to explain to themselves what France should be (i.e. an Anglo-Saxon country) and would accept that Life produces differences. But respect doesn't bring any money nowadays. Only war and imperialism (capitalism) does.
And respect another country means you still have dignity for yourself.

I ask it again: do the French tolerant people ask you to become French and adopt their "stalinist" system?

[Christoph]

Would you mind dropping this “Anglo-Saxon” nonsense, they died out years ago. I think what you mean is “English speaker”.

English Speakers are in fact so formal they dropped the tu (thou) form 300 years ago, and say vous (you) even to children and animals.

English speakers typically when attempting to speak French do the same, and say ‘vous’ in many inappropriate situations, to children, etc.

[Valentin]

"In south America the polite form of address between adults is in the third person 'usted', which translates as 'your honour'.
I suppose the French 'on' is equivalent."

Not really, there's no French equivalent. Italian like Spanish though, say
"E come lei, signora, dice bene, non tutti vorranno averla."

"dice" here is in the 3rd person singular. Just as correct and polite would be:
"E come voi, signora, dite bene...", plural 2nd person.

Thinking better though, the old aristocratic French address was actually in the 3rd person singular too:

"Monsieur me fera-t-il l'honneur d'y assister ? dit-il en s'adressant à Andrea." (Balzac)

[Otto tomasch]

In German we say: It is easier to say "Du A**", than "Sie A**".

Therefore, in case of doubt about a person`s behavior after allowing him to `duzen` you, stay with him `per Sie`!

[Pierre Gardin]

>>>I ask it again: do the French tolerant people ask you to become French and adopt their "stalinist" system?

I'm a French, tolerant person and I disagree with the above racist comment ...

[john]

Well, in English there also exist tu and vous. Take Blair for instance. You can either vouvoyer him:
"Mr. Blair, how do you reckon we should..."

or you can tutoyer him, as his pal George W. often does:
"Yo Blair! What d'ya think we should..."

Note that this is American tutoiement, but you can also use the more old-fashioned British tutoiement (Duke of Edinburgh's accent needed here):
"Blair old chap, what do you bloody think we should..."

And I'm not even going into Indian English, whose subtleties are way beyond my modest knowledge.

[MCD of USA]

"life produces differences".

"I ask again: do the French tolerant people ask you to become and adopt their "stalinist" system?"

I can't think of any other western country that is so intolerant of the American differences in dress, language, food, politics, culture, and, well...basically everything.

I wouldn't dare step foot in their country out of fear I will offend them by saying the wrong word, not saying the right word, not addressing them first, addressing them first, looking at them the wrong way, ect., ect. I'd be less stressed stepping into Iran.

[Rob]

I have worked in bars in Paris for the last 15 years and still revel in my ignorance..I get away the "tu" and "vous" and absolutely refuse to learn what sex an object is...my "bite" is definitley NOT feminine. I love being an Irish man in Paris as I get respect for speaking french/franglais and get to poke at the idiosyncrasies of the french language.

[Helene]

One thing has not been mentioned here: the indescribable frisson of addressing somebody with whom you are secretly intimate as "vous" in front of others who are ignorant of that intimacy. Delicious. English, so marvellous in many respects, has nothing like it.

[Conor]

Although I am a native English speaker I knew about the tu/vous concept when I moved to Austria and learned German. I had learned the rules in business in Italy. However the rules governing when to us Du and Sie was clearly different to the border between tu and Lei in Italian. But where was the border in Austrian social intercourse? My solution: to engage in verbal gymnastics and studiously avoid the words Du and Sie and their grammatical accompaniments altogether. It is still not always clear which is right. In fact, it differs regionally in Austria. In Vienna it's formal. In Tyrol, the bus driver greeted me in the Du form. Anyway, the initial verbal hoops I had to jump through to avoid using the wrong words helped me become proficient in the language more quickly.

[Gary Giumarra]

There seems to be a bit of confusion on the part of our English speakers here. Just because thou/thee sounds stilted to us nowadays people suppose it was the more formal form, but it is the other way around.

"From an "anglo-saxon" perspective, the very existence of the formal vous or sie [actually Sie] can be viewed as an anachronism: Thou died out a long time ago."

or

"As an American, who was never taught that 'vous' exists in natural language, yeah, I was appalled by the oh-so 19th-century formalism of saying 'vous' to one's neighbor, dinner companion, or co-worker."

But you are using the equivalent of "vous" (or "Sie") when you use the pronoun "you." It was the familiar form of "thou" and "ye" (plural) that died out in English with the formal "you" {"vous/Sie", both of which can be singular or plural, just like "you") remaining.

[Costanzia]

Sorry Monsieur Bremmer, it sounds better 'Et toi, Sarkozy?' in French. And, 'tutoyer' and 'vouvoyer' are the infinitive form of these verbs. I hope the French learn to vouvoyer again, France was a more distinctive country when she was polite and thus, the language of diplomacy. Mr Bremmer, I always like your refreshing news from France.

[Ian]

There was this thing in French films where the hero always vousvoie'd his intended catch until he had seduced her, after which he instantly tutoie'd her. As you never actually saw the seduction act itself, the director made you aware it had happened by changing the form of address!

[Richard Black, Paris]

The correct term for addressing a person in the "vous" form is in fact voussoyer or vousoyer - both spellings are permitted - and NOT vouvoyer even though the latter is used more commonly.

I offer this as information not as an invitation to be denounced as a linguistic pedant....

[david]

The same issue arises in other European languages: Romanians say "Dumneavoastra" (your lordship) for 'vous', and Poles say Pan (male), Pani (female), and Panstwo (plural), all with seven inflected cases from nominative to instrumental ("with you (sing.) = z panem (male) z pania (female), z panstwem (pl.)) The word 'Pan' means 'Lord'. It is still a fearful social gaffe in Poland to use the 'ty' (tu) form without prior permission, except in the army. Oh, and Pan/Pani/Panstwo always is used with a capital letter ! (So much for the egalitarianism that Communism was supposed to establish !)

In contrast, Russian simply uses the 'vy' (vous) form with 'ty' (tu) to show either familiarity or contempt. Slovene uses the 'gospod' (Lord) third person form too on initial social contact, whereas Serbian and Croatian use 'vy' (vous).

[Kevin]

Lost in the commentary "blaming" the excessive or inappropriate use of "tu" on "les anglo-saxones" is the fact that English went to the near-exclusive use of "you" -- the formal second person singular in English -- hundreds of years ago. Thee and thou, which now exist on in the King James Bible, Mennonite communities, and a Weird Al Yankovich song, are the familiar forms.

The Brits and we Americans determined to treat everyone with greater respect centuries ago, avoiding this du-sie, tu-vous, tu-usted, etc controversy.

A lesson for Europe from the Anglophones, perhaps?

[Jean-Christophe]

>>Sorry Monsieur Bremmer, it sounds better 'Et toi, Sarkozy?' in French.>>
No, no ;*) I think here we have a reference to Julius Caesar (Et tu coque me filio).
The British social relations may be more relaxed on the surface, but i think that overall, especially with the obsession with expensive private schools, etc., they are far more formal than us French.
After all "Would you like a cup of tea" and "Fancy a cup of T" infer a kind of formality/informality very close to tu/vous.

[Mat]

Two points - firstly I'm not a fan of Arielle Dombasle, but I like her take - 'vous' is breathy, while 'tu' is spat. I don't need to tell you which I find sexier!
Secondly, in conversation my rule is if I know you, or if you're much younger than me, I tutoie. If I don't know you, or you're the same age/older, I vousvoie. The only exception is the parents of my French girlfriend - obligatory vousvoie.
For me this is easy because I don't feel the uncomfortableness of 'on tutoie?' because I'm a native English speaker, but I know it can be an issue in certain circles.
Cheers!

[John Hornsby]

Now at last I have discovered why I was never much of a Casanova: I should have used "Vous" to prospective conquests! After thirty years in the country I still find it awkward when in a group one has to address some with the "vous" form and others with "tu".

[Frank Schnittger]

"Frank Schnittger, you haven't really understood. The essential function of le vouvoiement is politeness, not deference".

I have no difficulty with people being polite - and don't like the faux familiarity that often characterises modern discourse - for example - in the use of first names or even abbreviated first names - by people who don't know you.

My point is that there are many ways of being polite, and many nuances of social intercourse which can change as people get to know each other better.

However forcing people to use either Vous or tu forces you into a formal or informal mode at the very start of an exchange - and reinforces that forced choice with every subsequent sentence - when perhaps you are feeling somewhere in between, and makes the point of change problematic.

As Paul, Charlottesville,Virginia said (24 May 2007 15:29:29) "One form for "you" removes a tricky social problem. Even native speakers of these various languages are troubled by the formal vs. informal usage".

[Ian Varey]

Oh dear, Sarkozy is majoring on the minor and minoring on the major. I agree with Dominique (if I understand her comments correctly)in that respect and teaching"reimposing" the vous form are two different matters completely. Both teachers and students are disrespectful to one another today. What would be the difference if a student is showering a teacher with a barrage of profanities if they use "vous" or "tu"? Nothing. Having learned French from being 6 years old and having lived there for 8 years I don't have particular problems using either. If you don't know someone or they are older than you, use Vous. If you know someone, whether intimately or freindship- wise, and certainly on the invitation of the person him/herself then use tu. I am reminded of my year abroad in Italy where differentiality is also used. In the office I was constantly corrected until I learned how to use "Lei" and "la". And then I was reminded of how non-native English speakers think that in English we don't have this kind of formality. We do. A professor from a university in south west England was visiting the company I worked for. All the Italians adressed him by his first name, except me who knew, culturally, that one never calls unknown people by their first name until invited to do so. They are adressed as Mr or professor etc. As a child one always adressed ANYBODY older as Mr or Mrs. This is dying out in Britain, too, though I'm not sure inposing titles will bring back respect....but go on, France, have a stab!

[John Hornsby]

On the question of imposing the use of "vous" in schools on a nationwide level - surely a typically French notion - I would incline to agree with Sarkozy at "lycée" level where one is dealing with pre-adults (or sometimes actual adults) so that reciprocal respect is due. In the "collèges" though, pupils tend to dislike "vouvoiement" as distancing. As I see it, a teacher is welcome to encourage mutual "tutoiement": some can carry it off; others will be seen as trying to curry favour and suffer accordingly.

[Maggie G]

I had to get a weekly blood test for a couple of years, so got to know the lady in the lab very well. I even gave her a small Christmas present. She was very informal and enjoyed a good laugh.

I noticed she said 'tu' to all the nurses and I began to wonder if she had used 'tu' with me without me taking note, but I was never sure. Then I became worried that she had started using 'tu' with me, and that I had continued using 'vous' so that she had switched back to 'vous', and I was worried that she might think me cold and presumptuous -- me, the foreigner not accepting her tutoyment.

So then I began speaking in convoluted sentences, avoiding any 'you' altogether. Then I said 'tu' by accident one day, and excused myself and changed it to 'vous', and she said we should use 'tu', and I was worried that she was just saying it to be polite, and kept asking "Are you sure?"

Since then she has corrected me a couple of times when I've used 'vous', so I now use 'tu' but feel very ill at ease about it. It's extremely hard to change. I speak very good French, but in situations like this you just don't know what to do. It is not up to us, the non-francophone, to make the move. It's THEIR language.

By the way (take it from a Canadian) the term to use is not 'English speakers' but 'anglophones'. Although most francophones in Canada are French Canadien, the anglophones are not English Canadians, but everything from Ukranian to Italian to Hindu to Chinese.

By the way, Sandrine, did you notice that Robert wrote you a long message at the bottom of 'Vive Blair! -- or not.'? I keep checking to see if you've answered, and thought you might not have seen it, since he added it rather late.

[Thomas]

Ah, come on. Nobody would use "tu" to a teacher. Even when wrecking a lesson. It just doesn't happen. Never. Full stop.

(I can know, being a student from suburban town, and getting ready to become a teacher myself.)

[Matthew Duckworth]

I had never really given this issue much thought until reading this article. Having lived in France (though not as a student) I must say I tend to agree with Thomas: I find it pretty incredible that anyone actually calls their teacher "tu". To get the flavour of this, a French policeman calling someone "tu" is a bit like a British bobby calling someone "sunshine". Personally I would be really shocked if a French policeman addressed me as "tu". I can only assume they do it when you are about to be arrested at age 17 in circumstances where you probably won't remember the incident. Whenever they've spoken to me in the past they've not only called me "vous" but "Monsieur" - coupled with a military-style salute.

My own rule of thumb has always been to call everyone "vous" unless they are a child, and then wait for them to call you "tu" before reciprocating. Not to reciprocate is very awkward, incidentally, and only to be recommended if you don't mind being regarded as snubbing the person or risking being ticked off if you're really quite familiar.

[Valentin]

LOL I was reading Maggie's nurse post and living again my own experiences about when and how to go from vous to tu.

It doesn't matter much that you're a foreigner, I guess.
If you speak French well enough, French think you're aware of what you're saying, and your speech choices are considered thought through and precisely intended as such :) - at least I for one have rarely seen "indulgence towards the foreigner" when the person spoke good French.

In cases as that of Maggie's, the best solution I found, is to be Frank (not Schnittger :P ) and Open and just ask The Question :)
If you feel like it's appropriate to ask, probably the other person does too - or else you would have felt the distance already and the idea wouldn't have even passed through your head :))
French can be genuine masters at suggesting and manoeuvring moods and attitudes in social relationships.
(it is why I find it such a delight to date a French btw :) )

[Valentin]

There are so many comments these days that many must have been ignored.

Robert's message addressed to Sandrine is a bit rough, considering she gives a lot of herself into her own job as a fonctionnaire.

But as things are, indeed the progress and improvement-oriented fonctionnaires must stand and speak up.
Then there's the power to openly criticize those in one's own "branche" or "métier" that deserve it.
Unfortunately the traitor stigmat, the fear of rejection, are much stronger than the truth and even than the feeling of duty towards the country.

[Bela]

Richard Black, I would call you a pedant if you were correct, but the verb 'vouvoyer' is in the Petit Robert dictionary and therefore totally OK.

[marine]

Thomas is totally right, no one use "tu" with a teacher in high school. And in the lycée, teachers use vous with the students. Last time I said tu to my teacher I was in primary school but I said Madame or Monsieur.
I hope the government will never mingle in this issue, we have enough useless laws and I hope politicians have better things to do than decide for us how we should speak.

Policemen do not use "tu" because they received a post 68 education, they do it to assert domination and to show contempt. A policeman never addressed with a "tu", even when I was a teenager, but I am white and middle class.

[Francis O'Hara]

I was once introduced to the then bishop of Nice, a few weeks after I moved to the city. He addressed me with 'tu'. Knowing three words of French, and thinking somewhat vaguely that I should address him as he addressed me, I replied, in my three words of French, with 'tu'.
Some time later I met him again and having learned a little French, apologised for my original 'faux pas'. He smiled and said: 'Oh, don't worry about that at all, perhaps we should all say 'tu'.
Francis O'Hara, Nice, France

[Spinifex]

I'm a 26 year old French, and I'm married to a high school teacher who's the same age.

My husband asked his students (in a difficult Parisian suburb) how they felt about the tu/vous issue. They answered they liked it when the teacher said "tu" to them, but wouldn't dream of saying "tu" to him! Which is rather funny, as on the class blog they call him "Seb" (his first name is Sébastien).

[Jeremy Drake]

'Tu' presupposes some familiarity and nobody has the right to impose a non-existent familiarity on someone else. As for the laughable idea that 'tu' is egalitarian, using 'vous' all the time would be no less egalitarian. Let us all just have respect for others and use 'vous' until a genuine familiarity is attained and both wish to start saying 'tu' - a special moment that is worth waiting for (especially if you want to see more of her!).

[John Hornsby]

I am sorry but Thomas isn't "totally right" - I have worked in four 'lycées' and as many 'collèges' and my remarks are based on observations there as well as from colleagues working in other schools. As Thomas himself says, he is still a student.

[catherine piotelat]

I am French and have been teaching in a French high school for the past 6 years. Never ever would any of my students address me as "tu" but all the teachers address them as "tu" probably also because we don't have any discipline or violence issues in my small rural high school and there is a high demand for my high school which means that students are selected to enter it and the academic level is quite good. Consequently teachers don't need to put much distance between them and their students and so we can "tutoyer" them which is liked by students. Students told me they wouldn't like teachers to say vous to them as they would view it as a lack of closeness between the teachers team and them and somewhat out fashionned. We call our 15-18 years old student by their first name and say 'tu' to them.
I taught in England for a few years and i can assure you that sometimes the "you" from English students can be quite insulting towards a teaching staff member more than a "tu". Respect for teachers in France still generally exists (it certainly is harder in suburbs ...) and the young generation is as respectful as their parents' generation. Human beings'hearts don't change that fast.

As far as having intimate friends that you still "vouvoie" there is an easy way out of that if you feel uncomfortable with it just say to them "don't you think we should that tu to each other" (on pourrait se dire tu, non?)

[Helen]

Sorry if this is off topic slightly, but having experienced the French election campaign and hearing the candidates address each other as "vous" and "Madame Royal" and "Monsieur Sarkozy" etc., this weekend, in Ireland, I found myself being shocked at Irish politicians calling each other by their first names! I've been away too long.... :-)

[Maureen Winn]

We are British living in France and having our children educated in the French system. Our children both know instinctively when to use tu or vous, my husband and I have learned during our time here. Our village has many families with four generations still alive and although we use tu with our friends and their parents, we would not use tu with the great grandparents. We also use vous until the other person says otherwise and I agree that this a good thing, it shows respect and a little formality. A policeman or for that matter any fonctionnaire using tu is not correct. Too many people thrust familiarity on you too quickly and I for one don't always trust that. Mr Sarkozy should be concentrating on more pressing issues.

[Suzanne]

"Voussoyer" and "vouvoyer" are both correct, only "voussoyer" is the ancient form, not much used nowadays.

An addition to the use of "le tutoiement", Jacques Prévert's poem "Barbara" :
"Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime"

[Little Big Horn]

"I can't think of any other western country that is so intolerant of the American..."

MCD of USA,
As President Sarkozy said, "America is our friend, but friend doesn't mean not to say what we think."

There are a few things an American should keep in mind before saying France is intolerant with the USA.
1. The average tolerant American hayseed believes that the USA has a divine mission to accomplish for God: submit the world to American values (money, money and money), and, as Spiderman against Darth Vader, defeat Evil (which can't be American, in essence). It's not "intolerance" for another country (France for example), or for the rest of the world, to think differently, or more simply, to be able to think, be grown up people, and have true values.
2. The tolerant USA is a super power that claims to rule the world. (well good luck). It's not "intolerance" for another country (France for example), or for the rest of the world, to have a sense of honor, to have dignity, to refuse to submit to any imperialism, any domination, to stay independant, oneself, to consider that your allmighty powers are a meta-illusion, and kindly suggest to fascist Americans Sigmund Freud.
3. The tolerant US government said after Chirac refusal to help “Supercops of the World” to... strike and plunder a poor country (for US oil and gun industries, and other lovely businesses), that it will "Punish France" (Condi Rice). Punish France!!!? Is it intolerant for Sovereign France, or for any other country under oral terrorism, to say in response that US People is represented by a bunch of Assholes (US administration) led by a Twat (US president)? No, it's just Freedom. US people must take its responsabilities. And for the blow job (sorry Ladies) you've got the Queen. (by the way, France is still waiting the spanking the USA is having now in Baghdad. And it will have to be a severe one, because old France has the bottom skin tanned by a looong History).
4. More difficult to understand (it requires to change one's point of view).
Since 1945, France, as the rest of the world, is an "americanized" country. On the contrary, tolerant America, is one of the most protectionist country (after North Korea) in the world, and consider France culture, for example, as an exotic one, when it's not just a "touch" (I hardly imagine a “gallicized” "japanized" or "russianized" America). If tolerant Americans think it's natural for americanized countries all over the world to make the difference between cheap junk industrial “culture” (hollywood, coca-cola , Disney, etc...) and worthy American culture (what makes the USA a real country and not a Supermarket), well it's not. Because it presumes for the colonized country that it STILL has got his own true living and singular culture, to appreciate America (and universal)'s ones: John Ford, Ernest Hemingway, Jack london, Hermann Melville, Woody Guthrie, Woody Allen, Leonard Bernstein, Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald or Edward Hopper..

And believe me, to save his own culture (neither entertainment nor “art market”), to save Aladdin, Pinocchio, Huckleberry Finn or Mowgli from Hail Disney, in a corrupted world that suffers only commercial values, and ready-to-consume products for the cattle, is a struggle for non-Americans. When late Jack Valenti explained in France, to French screenwriters, with no shame (no dignity) that they should not write for the French cinema industry, but directly for Hollywood, you were facing a totalitarian and fascist policy, against... a culture, a nation and an identity. He could have said: “I want you to die”, it would have been the same. French cinematography, for example, survived to "tolerant" America, thanks to his State, thanks to laws. Culture is now in survival everywhere, whatever the domain, and what do not resist, disappear, because the (free) market, that Americans venerate as God, has a zero tolerance for what is not a merchandise. When a French teenager, even living in the deep end of Finistère, has his room covered by gangsta rap stars, watch all day long American TV series, or since the age of 3 wants "du Mac Do" for diner, and coca-cola in the fridge (not because it's good, but because "c'est cool"), it will be difficult to ask him once “adult” (in case it would ever happen!), if free market did not gave him a real identity with Nike, Levi's or iApple, or a true humanity in a fake and cheap virtual world, or a political conscience to become a man, a citizen in the reality (and not stay a grazing sheep), to have an acceptance speech toward the USA. Because the one who tasted liberty (which is nowadays have another choice that America) hates slavery and slaveholders. Then it will be the role of his (native) surviving CULTURE to save him from anti-americanism, because tolerant America (which certainly exists!) will be totally impotent to learn to his conscience tolerance toward America.

It's France’s “intolerance” yes, to sometimes "save you from yourself", as a native American poet said, but only because the tolerant USA want to save the world, by force and domination, from... the world. America won't recover its beloved innocence without any conscience. It's France's divine mission to give America one when it forgets itself. And it's free of charge!

[Marc Waller]

As a followup to Sébastien who got the impression that "vousvoiement" is not important in Montréal. It is, but it's just not applied the same way as in France. Indeed, it may be more complex. While people tend to use "tu" to people of their own age that they know, and often in their work environment, even with the boss, if he or she suggests it, the use of vous with strangers and in public interactions, like in stores is quite frequent, but various according to social class. A waitress at a cheap restaurant might address a young customer as "tu", but it would be considered highly inappropriate at any restaurant with the slightest pretentions of quality. There is currently a movement to return to vous in the public schools, while the private ones generally never dropped it.

[rocket]

Little Big Horn

Seems you've got a fixation on Twat, Blow Jobs,Assholes and spankings

[rocket]

Little Big Horn

Sorry I forgot "oral" too

Now on another register as you like to say

"I hardly imagine a “gallicized” "japanized" or "russianized" America"

For Gods sakes. Isn't it the French who are always saying that America is a notion of immigrants.

"Comme les seules vrais americains sont des indigènes, je sais que vous êtes né aux etats unis mais en fait vous êtes vraiment d'ou"

Obviously you do not know The United States. Just simple spouting off what you probably read on the front page of Liberation or hear on the French news et "puis la moutard te (vous)monte au nez"

Je vous prie de bien vouloir excuser ma franchise.

America IS a nation of immigrants and each ethnic group, culture, etc has contributed to make what is the America we have today.

Donc - It has ALREADY been gallicized” "japanized" or "russianized" among many other "ized" and continues to be so today

[Peter Mason]

Earlier on in this blog LittleBigHorn asked "do the French tolerant people ask you to become French and adopt their "stalinist" system?".

Working in an international engineering consultancy I regularly experienced degree educated Frenchmen declaring that 'anglo-saxon' culture should forcibly be extirpated from Europe by the EU. My, then, 12 year old daughter was even told, having just enthused about seeing her first Shakespeare comedy, that 'Shakespeare, and the rest of your ****ing Englishness, will be wiped out under the new [EU] constitution" by, of course, a Frenchman.

When I participated in an EU forum prior to the first referenda on the EU constitution, the British and particularly the English participants were frequently told that all things 'anglo-saxon' were to be removed from Europe often, again, by Frenchmen. The most extreme comment was a claim, by a French participant, that a UK referendum on the constitution was irrelevant because once a fully unified European army existed under French command then the constitution could be imposed on Britain following 'our victory parade in Trafalgar Sq'.

So the simple answer to LittleBigHorn is YES.

If one wishes to see the motivation then just read LittleBigHorn's posting of the 28th. The degree of loathing for all things 'anglo-saxon' is, in my experience, endemic to the Francophone world.

[Alain]

Tout Rocket ça. Little Big Horn fait un commentaire long, argumenté et intelligent et tout ce qu'en retient Rocket, well, he let us know. Talk about being obsessed.

[Jonah Sabremesh]

Moving swiftly on from Rocket's erudite interjection...

Dominique - it is not just French that has its social pitfalls.

The correct response to "How do you do?" is... "How do you do?". Like the direct French equivalent "Comment allez-vous", it is a rhetorical question, and actually answering "fine thank you" or, worse, embarking on litany of one's ailments is a social gaffe in polite circles.

[Daniel Strohl]

ROCKET,

Thanks to you, I have learned a new (for me) English word : twat. Since I didn't find it in my huge Webster's, I had a look at Google/Wikipedia. Now
I am up to date ... "Mieux vaut tard que jamais" (better late than never).

[Robert Marchenoir]

"America won't recover its beloved innocence without any conscience. It's France's divine mission to give America one when it forgets itself. And it's free of charge!"

1. No it's not. The penalty for this obsessive, sick anti-Americanism is avoiding to tackle homegrown problems. Unemployment. Debt. Low salaries. Poor housing. Two-tier society.

2. Finally Little Big Horn has made his coming-out: he is a born-again Christian. Fancy that.

[marguerite]

En France,du temps ou le tutoiement etait rare et qu'on vous tutoyait parce que vous etiez un enfant, on disait avec condescendance a l'adulte qui vous tutoyait:"nous n'avons pas garde les vaches ensemble".

[thinknoworpaylater]

Rocket: America is a notion of immigrants - Freudian slip? Peter Mason : after 15 years in France it is not my experience that all things anglosaxon are rejected. In fact last year I watched a very able performance of a Shakespeare play performed in the town square. God knows where you live in France. Here people lalk to me about British rock music and ask intelligent questions about Blair. Little Big Horn is making an effort to form a critique. Imperfect perhaps but not as crude as Rocket Sergolene shithole- remember? likes to be.

[Daniel Strohl]

LITTLE BIG HORN,

"It's France's divine mission to give America one when it forgets itself".

I belong to the many millions of Frenchmen who do not think they have a mission, and especially a divine one.

Divine missions (and miracles) are to be found in the Bible and should remain locked there. Would this have been the case in the past, many wars would have been avoided - recent ones also, of course.

PETER MASON,

You remind me of a joke : A somewhat "wired" compatriot of mine travels with a group to London. They arrive at Waterloo Station; then their guide organizes a visit of the main monuments. They arrive at Trafalgar Square - this is already too much for the above mentioned compatriot, who says to his neighbour : "These Brits are stupid, they give the names of lost battles to their monuments!".

[Alain]

Daniel Strohl, la blague sur les noms de défaites on la doit à Alfonse Allais...

[richard lakpassa]

I am from Togo, a former French colony in West Africa. My father who survived the brutal colonial school education never allowed me and my sisters to "tutoie" him, like many French kids do. My father found it very "elegant et respectueux" to keep calling him by "vous" and even him. Even when I was studying in France, my proud French educated father was still sending me letters by using "vous" to address me. Explanation: "Vous etes un homme adulte maintenantet je dois vous respecter."

[Robert]

I prefer the Californian 'dude' to all of the above.

[Gwynn Jones]

I love all this "in Austria, Germnany, Nicaragua, Outer Mongolia, Northern Venus...." stuff.

The distinction between "tu" and "vous" is alive and well IN THE UK! In the Welsh language "ti" and "chwi", are used in precisely the same way and for exactly the same reasons as their French equivalents.

It's a pity the English know so little about their nearest neighbours..........

[Trey Brister]

Here in Texas we have the singular / plural distinction though it has nothing to so with formality.

You = Singular
Yall = Plural
Yall Mutha***s = Informal
Dude = Informal

[Blendi Progri]

It is indeed a Great Debate that Sarky has highlighted, and it concerned folks even before him, also have to thank Charles for "bringing" it amongst us.
C.B is always a delight to read.
Its not only French that has the formal and informal form of address.
Someone mentioned Polish, Italian and I would ad Albanian.
It`s the same problem with the informal Ti (you) and the Formal Ju (plural-you).
To a boss, a senior colleague, a teacher, or someone you just met- its always proper to say -Ju.

Whatever it is and its clearly recognised, sensed, across many languages; that using Tu or Vous is something that "tells" "others" a bit about You also, despite your age, status, nationality, sex and creed.

At times could lead to wrong conclusions, but in my opinion-more often than not- someone that uses Vous/ Ju/ Lei etc- is someone with a grasp of social situations, comes from a good family background (manners wise) has a reasonable level of education, its more urbane and knowledgeable and more importantly than everythingit shows:
- respect to the person/s he/she is addressing.

Especially when used by an official; someone on duty -like a policeman- can`t say Tu and for anyone with good manners not to feel offended.

If we start to contemplate what could people do, where it might lead to or that some may use it as a form of irony ( vous ) and others could use it for this or that, then we will have to drop any norm of social interaction and blab the first thing that comes to mind.

Vous/ Lei/ Ju is here to stay, I don` t think it has anything to do with French Revolution (neither other turn arounds ) but its a simple aspect of the evolution of humans.
In early Latin there was no equivalent for Vous-they simply used Tu, it came much later on (imperial Latin) as a form of establishing hierarchy. Only during Renaissance, writers, learned men, poets etc started to adapt Vous more often and up to XIX-XX century when it became more common.

There` s no reason to drop Vous, ( it aint stuffy) and to try and "simplify" things just “because”... if we go by that logic of simplifying every thing that symbolises who & what we are, then we must look to reduce...well lets start with numbers and go back to the Belle Époque of One, Two...Some ( 3 ) and More-for every other number.

People who salute, ask, explain or engage in any form of interaction with each-other have only two "tools" at their disposition to show the person in front-their consideration. Both Languages.
One, Body Language the other the Spoken Lingua. One, more older and one more recent; one a bit primitive and often instinctive the other is evolved and cultivated.

Often the Vous- its complete meaning- rests in the way it is said.

VOUS- It`s not just the way of saying "I came in peace" but I respect You and You deserve my respect formally. I`m addressing you as a “superior” but in fact you are my equal- and I certainly expect the same in return. Its not just a way of establishing formal boundaries but the way you present yourself “out there” and whatever may follow the initial impressions count.
There will be time for informalities later on, and if not-in case we met only once-most people would be glad to be addressed as Vous during that single interaction.

Who was it that said:

Only lovers and idiots talk without inhibitions, everyone in between is only negotiating.
===============

Its true that English Lacks what virtually all European and most other languages possess, a Formal Form of Address expressed in a single word. Vous!
In fact, its only an apparent lack of it and at times what Proper or not, can`t be quantified by one pronoun ( nor nationality ) and the uses it has, but rest assured (as I live in UK from 12 years) there are few others that could express “Vous & Tu” more expertly than the Brits.
There are so many English words to use to address everyone properly and certainly (after lacking Vous) they dont say:
Oi, Hey, Hej, Ej, Oh you... (except in EastEnders & at the Footie)
Brits have the good fortune to have (or maybe they invented it- I`m in need of some emoticons in here) an elaborate system of manners; that more than makes up for not having Vous and can make anyone feel a “Vous” at anyplace and at anytime.

As for other folks that speak English from day 1, - how do they manage without Vous? - let others say how they do it as I don’t know a lot about Formality in USA (mostly Simpsons-like, lol) Can/Aus/N.Z etc.

cheers guys
Blendi

[Daniel Strohl]

ALAIN,

Je ne savais pas que la blague était d'Alfonse Allais. Il l'a sûrement mieux racontée que moi ...

GWYNN JONES,

I know a few words in "breton", the Celtic language spoken in Brittany - for instance "gwin gwen" = white wine; "gwin rü" = red wine. Is that understandable in Welsh language ?

Please note that I live in Eastern France (Alsace), almost 1000 km off the harbour of Brest ... As a young man, several decades ago, I have served a few years in the French merchant navy, where there are many "Bretons". Of course, I remember a few other words, but they do not fit especially well in Charles' blog, which is not specialised in (crude) nautical language ...

[Peter]

It's rather interesting this article I must say! I live in germany and we either use "du" (tu/thou) or "sie" (vous/you). In our office of four people it's per du. We call our boss "sie" and "mr" but everything else is "du". At my last job my old boss said "call me du" but everyone else still called him mr. I felt awful calling him du. The police here call teenagers and immigrants with du but other people with sie. It kind of creates a patronising atmosphere, so I agree that the police should use "vous" in france.

The english form "you" is acutally FORMAL, and thou is informal. We think thou is formal as it is spoken perhaps in churches or we have read it in shakespeare as a formal setting.

I think it's quite nice to have this tangible system in a language. We say here that when you take a beer with someone you can call them du.

Perhaps england should do the same. Like in the film the queen, they say Tony Blair made everyone in Downing Street call each other by first names!

[Courtney]

Interesting article. One of my french teachers (she's half french btw) said that parents will often address an infant as 'vous',which is apparently a form of endearment, meant to convey tenderness rather than anything to do with respect (of course, the child can't even speak at this point.) Nobody has mentioned this aspect of tutoiement/vouvoiement, so I am wondering if I perhaps imagined that remark! Anyone care to enlighten me?

[George Wright]

Kevin mentions that because we brits dropped the "tu" form, we treat everyone else with more respect. But isn't he assuming that whatever is different in our culture is better than elsewhere? Even if something was gained, something may have been lost too. Aren't old people and foreigners,often, treated with more respect in latin cultures? Doesn't the formal/respectful use of the "vous" form help a little in this? I'm not sure. Also, without a "tu" form, might we have less ways of expressing intimacy with our relatives, close friends and lovers? For instance, I think there are more terms of endearment in Italy, where I live, than back in Britain; where Londoners say "darling", northerners say" love", and that's about it. Wasn't there something good lost when we got rid of "thou, thee, thy, thine", etc.? Think of "Drink to me only with thy eyes" ( Ben Jonson) for instance. Has there been much really beautiful love poetry written in English since his day? Even our great Romantic poets seemed to have been more of democratic protest movement. I have no idea of how the 2nd person familiar dropped out of English anyway. What happened? Was it a side effect of Cromwell and the English revolution?

The whole topic of different linguistic conventions may be more important than most people think.The question of giving "tu" and "vous", for instance, only concerns questions of familiarity and authority; but when we look at gender, we're going into a real minefield. I don't like it when Italian intellectuals continue to use "Uomo"("Man")to denote our species for example; without even thinking of the many alternatives in Italian, and so ruling out 50% of the population. Is this one reason why there are so few women in parliament in Italy? Incredibly, there doesn't seem to be a common word for "equality" in Italian:"uguaglianza" and " ugualità" are so awkward and ugly (even sound like ugly) that even Italians seem to avoid them: "equalità" seems to be almost extinct.

It's a contentious issue, anyway - like many other language issues: including use of dialect, slang, jargon - and simple, plain words instead of long, difficult ones, when writing laws, for example. Does France have a " Francais Simple" movement like "Plain English?" That's a much more important problem that Sarkozy might like to address if he seriously wants to improve relations betwen immigrants and the police.

[david from mx]

In spanish, as in french, we also have the difference between "usted" (vous) and "tu" (tu) and similar difficulties as the ones posted above to choose the right one!. In addition, when you use "usted" with a person who is older than you, it is kind of frequent to add "Don" or "Doña" before the first name of that person. For example "Don Carlos" or "Doña Maria" ("Don" or "Doña" do not mean Mister or Mrs which translate as Señor or Señora). This Don or Doña stuff might sound a bit old fashioned but it is still live and well.

[Terry]

Little Big Horn:

Vous said:

"The tolerant US government said after Chirac refusal to help “Supercops of the World” to... strike and plunder a poor country (for US oil and gun industries, and other lovely businesses), that it will "Punish France" (Condi Rice). "

Precisely where and when did Condi Rice said we were going to punish France.

I admit that France could use a good spanking or perhaps be sent to bed without any camambert. But when did Condi Rice say we were going to "punish France".

I am calling Vous out on this one. (I'm trying to stick to the topic)

[Monika]

Interesting article. And I learned something: 'thou' is actually the informal address. I always thought that it was a rather old fashioned formal address though I always understood the analogy between "thou" and the German "du" ('thou hast' 'du hast'). Perhaps because Shakespearian 'thou' is translated into 'Ihr' (capital letter) in German (Ihr = vous) that is not used as formal address in Germany. In movies depicting medieval times they use the 'Ihr' in order to express the formal address between aristocratic or royal people.
In German the formal address is the third person plural ('Sie', capitalized). It is probably interesting to note that in former times a very distant address in third person singular existed, too, when addressing to someone of a lower social status (for instance to a servant or serf). This address is no longer used. One still might use it but only when one wants to treat someone in a rather arrogant way with a slight touch of irony.
I for my part prefer the distinction between du/Sie or tu/vous. As much as I won't let anybody into my house I don't offer him the tu. At the same time I can choose those whom I wish to invite into my home or to tutoying.

[Jean Vignes]

I grew up in the Southern United States in the 1950's and 1960's. We children ALWAYS spoke to adults using an honorific (Mr. Smith or Mrs. Jones or Uncle Robert) and using sir or ma'am ("Yes, ma'am" or "No, sir". Never, ever just "no" much less "naw" or "nuh-uh"!)

When I moved to the West Coast at the age of 18 I was appalled when I was forced to give up this respectful habit and call my 60-year-old boss "Bob" or my 50-year-old landlady "Rose". It seemed (still seems) so very disrepectful. Now that I am 50, I accept but do not enjoy being called by my first name by children and strangers.

What is missing from our overly familiar culture is that oh-so-lovely moment when you gaze into someone's eyes, take their hand, and say, "Please call me Mary" or "May I please call you John?" It's like the old aphorism that states: never ask a woman to marry you unless you already KNOW that she'll respond in the affirmative. One just knows when the right moment has arrived to move from formal to familiar. And for youth speaking to age, the moment never comes because youth KNOWS that it would be disrespectful.

If you were not raised in a culture with formal vs. informal, then you perhaps cannot understand these instinctive nuances between respect and disrespect, between formality and intimacy. I think it's a shame that we've allowed such an important part of our culture die out in most of the United States (in the South, however, these nuances persist albeit in diminished form.)

I applaud the French and Germans for continuing to use formal and informal 'you', even though it makes my French studies so much more difficult. When a French child says, "Bonjour madame" to me, I know that he was raised by caring parents who taught him to respect himself and others.

[Joan]

I like the awareness of formality imposed by the vous/tu distinction--it causes people to think. Clearly many societies have noted the value of this over centuries based on the prevalence of the formal/informal structure. I very much also like the Spanish use of don or dona (sorry about missing the tilde)with a first name, as well as the French habit of saying "Bonjour Madame" to me. I like to be treated with civility. Modern American English in general practice lacks such gracefulness, unfortunately. However, I also love Trey's Texan-American English! Little Big Horn, you really shouldn't slander America based on what you've read or heard from left-wing professors--it's not like that at all, and it is a country that many people want to come to because they can get a job, earn a decent living, move around, see their children get a good education, and generally have a good time, good friends, and a satisfying life free of seething resentment. Politeness has little to do with it.