No manners, we're British

Since we have been having fun with rude Parisians, it might be a good moment to lament a new menace in our midst: the loud Brit.

I wonder if others are struck as I am by the uncouth behaviour of many British visitors to France and the rest of the continent. I am not just talking about Little England characters or young football supporters who get plastered before their Eurostar train has left Kent. The offenders are from the comfortable classes, though they tend to be on the younger side, under about 45.

This is not the rant of an expatriate gone native. Friends, French and otherwise, comment on the trend. I am talking about the way that some Britons -- and not just the English -- act as if they own the place when entering shops, cafes or just walking down the street. This attitude is replacing the older stereotype of the British middle class abroad as unassertive and overly apologetic. Possession of the all-powerful English language and more spending money seem to confer a sense of superiority, as they did for Americans in Europe before Vietnam and, more recently, Iraq.

Part of this is cultural. As we discussed the other day, a casual "hi", a grunt or a shrug suffice as greetings in modern Britain while the French expect a clear bonjour at least. Often, I see Brits demanding service in blunt English with no greeting and no apology for the foreign language.

Then there is noise level. Britain has a higher threshold of tolerance -- not just abroad, as a visit to any UK city pub will attest to. In a restaurant in London's Notting Hill the other day, a Paris friend was amazed by the raucous yelling at a table of young City types -- male and female. "I thought the English were considerate," said the friend, who has only visited the UK a couple of times.

Twice in the past month, waiters have sought my help to ask British groups in small Paris brasseries to keep the sound down. On both occasions they were a youngish, professional crowd who did not notice that their high spirits were annoying the locals. Both times, the response was irritation rather than apology and the volume went back up as French customers moved table to get away. 

"Why do they make so much noise?" wondered Alain, the waiter at my local lunch place on the Boulevard des Italiens. Alcohol is part of the answer. The British fondness for heavy drinking amplifies the excessive behaviour. Alain also made a point that you hear from Parisians. In the old days, the Americans stood out among the visitors, for dress and behaviour. Now les anglais often draw attention to themselves while the Americans -- on the defensive in France -- try to blend in more.   

My Paris-born daughter, aged 13, was on holiday in Val d'Isère, in the Alps, on the New Year weekend. The hotel warned her and her friend to stay indoors. "It could be dangerous because les anglais will be partying in the streets," the staff said. Back home she asked me why les anglais were different from everyone else.

Mobile phones and eating on the Métro are another problem, but maybe I had better stop. I don't want to exaggerate. Much British behaviour is just high spirits on holiday or business trips. Some Brits may be obnoxious, but there are many quiet ones who are sensitive to the native culture.

And there is not much really new about this. The 1944 wartime guide for British soldiers in France -- republished last year -- advises servicemen to tone down their behaviour and avoid over-familiarity in France. The French took a dim view of the uncouth behaviour of ordinary anglais from the middle ages onwards. In the early 18th century, Montesquieu, the great essayist and admirer of England, wrote: "The English have too much to do. They do not have time to be polite." All those travelling gentlemen and milords of the 18th and 19th centuries helped improve the image but we now seem to be drifting backwards.

Anyway, I'm ready to be shot down. Who's first ?

Comments

[Suffolk County]

I agree - 100%. Many well mannered Brits in this country are just too polite and restrained to make their feelings known to fellow countrymen in this country let alone abroad.

If theres one thing, and perhaps only one thing, I have admired the French for is their manners and their common courtesy in everyday life.

[Chris Sheppard]

Readers who were as appalled and irritated as I was by what Mr Bremner describes might be interested in reading what another columnist says encouragingly about manners and public behaviour in general

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1975607,00.html

The trouble is that whatever others may think of its politics The Guardian is a paper for educated people - we really are lost if they believe they have a right to do as they please whatever discomfort they cause.

[Swift]

Charles, your anecdote about your daughter's New Year trip to Val d'Isere amused me - mainly because, once upon a time, I could have been seen as one of 'les anglais' that the hotel manager was worried about.

You see, before I went to university I spent four months working out in Val d'Isere as a barman in one of the 'fashionable' nightspots out there.

Then, while at university, I used to help out my brother (who worked for a ski company) during the Xmas and Easter holidays organising ski holidays for students.

The hotel manager was right: 'les anglais' - and more often than not, drunk and disorderly ones - do rule the resort. Along with the crazy Scandanavians, the English have completely taken over the whole of l'Espace Killy.

While doing a whole season I made an effort to frequent bars, cafes and restaurants that had a strong French clientele - just to escape the monotony of the inebriated Brit abroad, and to try and reassure the locals that we weren't all that bad.

When as a ski rep, however, it was my job to organise the theme nights and pub crawls that have overtaken what was once a peaceful and picturesque valley village.

Being a French speaker, I was constantly on call to apologise on behalf of my nation for their despicable behaviour. At times it was frightfully embarassing: I can think of one occasion - on the Varsity ski trip no less - when I had to deal with groups of lairy and arrogant Oxbridge types who, despite the high-altitute freezing temperatures, were decked out in black-tie while yah-yahing cringeworthy songs peppered with obscenities...

But the most memorable anecdote came when I was at the local police station to deal with one of our student's stolen snowboard. In front of us there was an agitated English couple whose conversation with a policeman went thus:

FATHER (in English - no effort whatsoever to speak French): Hello, we have come here to report an offence.

GENDARME: Good moaning (a la Allo Allo), just what iz the problem?

FATHER: Well, last night our 16-year-old daughter went out and was served alcohol in a bar.

MOTHER: She got so drunk she passed out in a pile of snow.

GENDARME: But thiz iz not ar problem. In France you can drink when you have 16 years...

FATHER: But, the thing is, she went to a bar called B****** (ed - snip) where she was given a drink called 'A Gas Chamber'.

GENDARME laughs.

MOTHER: This is not funny. You know, such a drink is illegal in England. It involves inhaling the fumes from a concoction of dangerous spirits.

FATHER: Our daugher could have died. We found her at 2am outside absolutely freezing.

GENDARME: Just what iz eet you want me to do about this?

FATHER: Well, you should arrest the bar manager and close the bar down.

GENDARME: But they ave done nothing wrong. They serve what the eenglish want. It iz your problem. If you want to protect your daughter, why did you let her out at night in a place like Val d'Isere? I theenk you are the ones who did wrong. You are her parents, it ez your responsibilite to make sure she comes 'ome earlier than two in the morning. What did you hexpect?

MOTHER AND FATHER leave in an outrage.

Surely the policeman had a point?

[Edward Johns]

Without wanting to sound too much of an old fart, it's really all about absence of discipline in UK society today.

[Richard Black]

Just the tip of the iceberg Charles ! (And jolly brave of you to intervene by the way - I think I should have been far more cowardly and pretended I wasn't English). One of the most endearing Ebglish qualities in French eyes (other than le vice anglais) used to be the famous phlegme britannique ! Not anymore !

What you describe seems a normal if unexpected consequence of the persistently chronic dumbing down of British culture and the "Whatever !" generation.

Traditional cultural values of common courtesy, consideration of others and general politeness (like general knowledge) seemed to go out of fashion with trade unions when the "greed is good" ethos came in, (about the time people and schools stopped teaching their children how to do the Times crossword (how many middle class young people under 35 could manage to finish it I wonder ?). When people stopped eating together as a family and talking as a family without omnipresent television (most middle class French families I know still eat together but the British phenomenon is catching on over here too like a ghastly rash).

Ushered in by people who thought it better to sell off school playing fields for housing and make loadsamoney in the process so that future generations lost forever the joys of decent sports. The last time I visited the National Gallery, there were almost no young people there (compare that to Paris museums and galleries !)

The most commonly appreciated social value amongst the British today seems to be money. If you've got it, you don't need anything else. The British abroad have never been great ambassadors but they get more boorish and thick every year so it seems.
What can one expect when some examination board is perpared to accept answers written in "Text speak" ?

I came to France to get away from all that ! I'm still as proud as the French are jealous of British freedom though ! Freedom unfortunately to be loud, boorish and philistine too !

[Dave Ward]

"When people stopped eating together as a family"

I'm just glad I'm young enough to have missed out on this.

[Hugh]

My brother is a police officer in NSW and heads up a unit which covers one of Sydney's more popular beachside areas. His major complaint - British tourists. Loud, offensive, usually drunk and frequently stoned. He rates them as the worst behaved of all foreign visitors.

[jorge]

Mr Bremner, I am writing from Spain. Could you please elaborate a bit on the ''older stereotype of the British middle class abroad as unassertive and overly apologetic''. We haven't seen any like this over here, for the last decades. Possibly our dear French were able to charme all the decent english tourists, leaving us with the rest.

As for the ''all powerful English language'', finally the best-educated british and americans are starting to realize that their lack of language skills are making them the butt of all jokes in any international environment. Pity.

[Adam Michie]

since when has this been a new problem. the fact is when you young people are abroad (speaking from personal experience), you feel invincible and want to test the boundaries of another countries tolerance (usually under the influence of a couple of glasses of the local brew). at least the british still know how to cue properly and politely. ever tried going out in london to tourist spots? it pays to be rude or you dont get anywhere. i spent 11 months travelling the world and as far as i could see, the most polite people i encountered were still the british and on my return i noticed british policemen, shop keepers, bus drivers etc were all very polite i comparison to those that i'd encountered. not being biased. its a fact. trouble is it takes booze to bring out the boorish side. others dont need it and are naturally ignorant, rude and obnoxious. at least we have something to blame and then feel remorse the next day.

[CLH]

Am I the only person to get annoyed at all the "foreign types" talking incredibly loudly on English public transport then? Or is it perhaps possible that a foreign tongue tends to ring out in a crowded area? Or maybe it is a combination of continental expressiveness, a jarring alien tongue and the exuberence of being abroad as mentioned before?

Hey ho - off to Paris on Saturday you'll be delighted to hear....

[Simon]

With disposable incomes at a 25 year low and Gordon Prudent Brown in charge the British will soon no longer be able to travel abroad - problem solved!

[Frank Schnittger]

I blame Ryanair myself. All those cheap flights means that the sort of Brits formerly stuck at home on welfare or menial jobs can go on boozy holidays to places that were previously the preserve of the more educated classes.

Of course education isn't what it used to be either. Now they let all sorts into University! Of course those Oxbridge chaps always tended to misbehave rather awfully, but then there was always the butler to clean up afterwards.

And what’s the point in having lots of money if you can’t show off a little to all those rather quaint natives and petit bourgeois who work in trade, for God’s sake!

If the French don't like it, why did they let us into the Common Market? Its what commoners do, misbehave, that is.

Anyway, I'm glad that our Man at the Times is still there to do the decent thing. If it had been the Daily Mail reporter, he would probably have incited the Brits to create a real scene, and then written a piece on the arrogance and stupidity of the French!

[Jaki Gillen]

How true this article is. It is some years since I was in France on holiday. Even then I tended to avoid the areas I knew would be frequented by 'les anglais'. We, as a family, even resorted to speaking french while out and about to avoid being heard speaking english. I would no more holiday where 'les anglais' of a particular type congregate than I would eat fish and chips on holiday anywhere other than in Britain.

[Tunde Arogunmati]

I think Mr Bremner's article is a bit too harsh on the British. Continental Europeans are far more impersonal than they seem to let on.

I'm an African (Nigerian to be precise) executive and on my trips to continental Europe, most especially France, they seem to be besotted with a visitor's ability (or lack of same) to converse in their language.

The same does not necessarily apply in Britain; they just tend not believe they need to understand a second language to get by in life.
That is not to say however that there is no need to play down the increasingly signature yob culture popularised by British football fans.

As for British behaviour abroad I guess it boils down mostly to overcoming shyness by being overly obvious, otherwise I would feel safer in a Brit's company anyday than any other European (no offense meant); at least you know where he (or she for that matter) is coming from - they are quite blunt.

At the embassies out here in Nigeria for instance, the British visa issuance system is about the most forthright and transparent, while an attempt to procure a French visa, irrespective of your status is like a picnic in Hell!

[Dave in Aberdeen]

The anecdote above regarding the French policeman had me laughing out loud. He highlighted one of the major failings of the British: lack of responsibility. However, the devil in me says that if we're upsetting the French then we must be doing something right.

When we go on holiday we simply avoid the area where the more obnoxious Brits (the "Kevin Tattoo" types as well as the "Nigel Nigel Nigel Hyphen-Stroke-Rah-Rah" types) and in this respect Germany is a well kept secret.

[Emily]

As an Anglais who has a house in France and Never goes anywhere near Paris I have to say it's the locals who are the rude, boorish ones. They may say Bonjour but that's it. They'll happily tramp across your garden to shoot some poor fleeing deer, park their 4x4's on your drive, chop back your trees when you are not there and shout at you if you complain. Yes, sure there are lots of rude English people -my next door neighbours spring to mind but there are plenty of horrible humans everywhere.

[Richard Willoughby]

Having just returned from St Anton when I witnessed the most drunken and dangerous firework free for alls (display would flatter) on New Year's Eve it would seem to me unfair to limit your citicism to the Anglo Saxon section of the Northern European races.

[alan morgan]

All the comments made have an element of truth but there is something missing here. If you go to almost any English town these days loutish behaviour fueled by drink is evident. Worst of all are the young girls.Drunk and very noisy.
This anti social partying carries over to their holidays: it has nothing to do with the country these people are in; but everything to do with the type of person and their habits.
Impoliteness is still an English disease.

[Peter Mason]

I think you'll find that studies of the historical behaviour the English/British abroad (and in fact within the UK) indicate that the behaviour complained about is the norm and the quiet, unassuming Brit aboad is an early 20th century phenomenon.

If you read acconts of the 18th century Grand Tour, 19th century accounts of Britons in France, Germany and Italy or even the 14th century complaints from Castilians about drunken, randy British louts you'll soon realise that the Ealing Films/Disney view of twee apologetic Brits abroad is rot.

Personally I'm still embarrassed by a 1970'sstay in a Tyrolean pension, famous for it's local cuisine, during which the management had to start serving fish and chips, etc as the majority of Brits there sent back the "foreign muck" to the kitchens. I did try pretending I was Australian but to no avail.

[rocket]

"If theres one thing, and perhaps only one thing, I have admired the French for is their manners and their common courtesy in everyday life."

Mais je reve! Try standing in a line in France, albeit line control has improved somewhat over the past 30 years. When La Poste first used line control about 15 years ago they had to explain to people how the system worked.

I had to listen to these masters of the universe lecture me on the Yellow Line at American Immigration only until they woke up and started using it themselves when they realized that there were other civilized people in the world who don't act like animals in line.

The French may say bonjour and au revoir until they are blue in the face, but these are just programmed utterances learned in the socialist training camps known as "creche" that have no meaning in adult life whatsoever. Much like Chirac's grand ideas for Europe after the French referen"dumb" defeat. For me, most of the French (especially Parisians and people from the southern cities)are still social anarchists with very little civic sense.

They may put on a smiley touchy initial reaction but try asking more than two questions in a store or administration and their patience deep six's itself bigtime.

And what's with the polite campaign which we heard about a few months ago which like all things French has died out without so much a whimper when it was realized that effort was required. I have never been in any other country which has had to use a nationwide advertising campaign to exhort it's citizens to be friendly.

[christopher muir]

Unfortunately many Brits feel, when arriving in a foreign country, that they are setting foot in a British colony. "The natives speak funny and dress funny. And they don't know how to have a good time. We'll show the poor sods." Just surf the internet and watch the deplorable uploaded videos of Brit. holiday-makers in Greece and other countries. The clips are ghastly evidence of something having gone very wrong in their lives. I blame education, parents and egos for promoting such selfish behaviour.

[mcmorran]

I wonder how many of your readers have read The Ugly American, or its better Chinese counterpart, badly translated as The Ugly Chinaman, or a similar Japanese book. All the authors were caustic about their fellow countrymen. The sad truth is that we are all pretty 'ugly'in our own ways. It boils down to differences of style. I look forward, without much optimism, to a book entitled L'affreux Francais or one entitled The Awful Englishman - but perhaps the titles ought really to be in the plural: we are all much worse in groups.

[john gregory Flinn]

Well, Douglas Hurd, one of Mrs Thatcher's ministers, once said that in world affairs 'the British punch above their weight'. Whether he was indulging in wishful thinking or believed it true or whatever reason I do not know why.

However I suspect that because the english language currently floods and dominates the world's expressed ideas, political thoughts and media there is some truth in it. There is a inimitable British attitude abroad.
And, unfortunately, this also extends to the media when at home, who often feel able to express opinions about foreign situations that other nations would be too polite to copy. For example, that leader of your employer's on Jan 3rd, 2007 - 'Ancien Regime' - epitomises this point. The BBC's inflated opinion of it's own rectitude and pontifical style is well known abroad.

Having a 'big brother' (or at least a first cousin) on the other side of the the 'pond' is certainly relevant to feeling able to exert more influence than befits the Brits! The use of the soubriquet 'pond' for the Atlantic Ocean is itself illustrative of how close the British want to feel they are to the Americans.

This attitude also trickles down to the 'hoi-polloi', in France, Spain, Turkey and other leisure spots.

However, it seems there may be a statistical aspect developing here as well, and which may explain your experiences better. More numbers of the 'bog standard' comprehensively-educated Brit venture abroad, as they or their parents have more disposable income, buy second homes and take more holidays.
Manners are somewhat politically incorrect in a 'bog-standard' comprehensive school, and teaching them is largely futile, so these Brits tend to lack them. What you may be seeing is simply more of what used to be less obvious - if you see what I mean. Also these Brits tend to encounter each other more often for the same reasons, which can amplify the problem.

Another factor could be at play here also. It may be something to do with being an island nation, close to but seperated from a much larger mainland. And at some, or several instances in time having advantages over the mainland - not least of which is being independent of any nasty political ramifications that adjacent continental powers may be unable to avoid.
I can remember the Koreans and Taiwanese viewing the Japanese abroad in their countries similarly, although their occupation in the early part of 20th century is a factor here too. Before that though the conflicts between the mainland nations and Japan had similar scenarios, rivalries and outcomes to those that preoccupied the European nations including Britain.

PS; I hav'nt counted many posts shooting you down Mr Bremner!

[Robert Marchenoir]

"The socialist training camps known as creche".

That's stretching things out a long way, but funny nonetheless.

[Isabelle]

Don't be too critical towards your compatriots. People generally tend to relax a bit of their self inflicted restraint (being called politeness) when on holidays.
As an expat I learned that what is considered as polite in one country may be impolite in another one and vice versa ...

[Becassine]

Moi qui suis Francaise , je ne trouve pas que les Anglais que je rencontre, a Paris ou a la campagne, soient particulierement bruyants ou grossiers. Ils boivent beaucoup,c'est vrai mais ils sont plutot plus calmes et plus "civilises" que les Francais (alors que quand ils sont chez eux, a Londres par exemple, leurs souleries sont plutot exuberantes). La seule chose que je leur reprocherais, c'est de ne pas dire un mot de francais , meme apres des annees passees dans ce pays.Mais cela ne fait pas de bruit.

[Martin Saville]

I travel to France several times a year with a group of Anglo/Celtic/Kiwi friends who used to play rugby together, of different nationalies and from all walks of life, some of them eminent in their professions, to eat, drink and watch rugby.

We aren't aggressive, there is no danger in us, but when we get together in a restaurant, there is no denying we are loud. We reminisce. We laugh a lot, and ours is not the restrained laughter of nuns.

Our volume goes up as lunch or dinner progresses. We are enjoying ourselves, God forbid. The French have an expression for it: La joie de vivre. In France, gastronomy on offer, good rugby in prospect - does it get any better? Certainly I would not like to be holding a romantic assignation next to us, but what can we do? Speak in whispers across and along a large table? Laugh quietly or not at all? We order much food, we consume much fine wine, the bill is large. The establishment and the waiters are happy, and so are we.

Vive la différence, anyone?

[Roger Goodacre]

All sounds very reasonable to me, Martin Saville. The problems start when you drop your trousers and treat the natives to a graphic display of 'mooning', or stand on the table with your flies open and do unspeakable things with half a baguette, or treat the restaurant to a deafening rendition of Zulu Warrior - all acts I've witnessed myself, but really only easy to appreciate if you yourself have been drinking for several hours ..

[Raph]

Nothing worse than a French tourist complaining about food, wine, weather, local habits....
Don't be ashame loudy Britons, enjoy your stay in France :)

[Robert Marchenoir]

"Certainly I would not like to be holding a romantic assignation next to us, but what can we do?"

What you can do, Martin Saville, is, at the very least, warn the restaurant where you are booking that your party is usually a very noisy one, and ask whether they have any objection.

But that still would not do, since it would not address the problem of the other unfortunate customers, who might happen to be there that day.

Your suggestion that money buys you the right to be obnoxious to others is repulsive. It is obvioulsy shared by a growing number of people, and is the source of much social tensions and violence.

Of course it would be different if you went to a rugby pub with a big screen where everybody goes to watch the match, and presumably enjoys the associated noise and rowdiness.

But it does not seem to be the case, given the possibility you mention of romantic customers next to you.

[John Hornsby]

Mooning used to be a speciality of the French, especially at factory Christmas dinners. People abroad certainly tend to be less inhibited or afraid of making a fool of themselves but I have observed in Britain over the past few years how noisy even elderly pub drinkers have become, guffawing at every other word and evidently intent on showing the world what a great time they are having. One of the side-effects, I suppose, of the new "pub culture", which seems to put a premium on being proud to be (or seem) stupid.

[Pierre Erié]

"The socialist training camps known as creche".
My two children have been to a creche from the age of 3 month to 3, where they have been taught be polite, to eat with a fork, to be respectful of their mates'sleep, not to kill the others with a pair os scissors.
The fact is that once at school, the one who had been to a creche were the one who were known as those who behaved themselves in social life. Nothing to see with socialist as I paid full rate.

[Martin Saville]

Tisk, such prejudice against the rugby fraternity. Mooning? Bagettes? Zulu Warrior? I think not, outside of the rugby club.

We seem to have arrive at an impasse: Freedom to wassail, or the right not to be wassailed at.

The French of the Languedoc have been known to be lively on occasion, as anyone who has been to the Fetes de Bayonne will attest. Those of the Languedoeil tend to be a little more introverted.

The scene : A friend and I have driven from London to Paris to enjoy New Year's Eve at Brasserie Bofinger.

We arrive to find the restaurant full of gloomy couples eating in silence or speaking in whispers. The ambience is that of a waiting-room at the crematorium.

At midnight the lights dim and the maitre d' and a waiter climb up to the staircase half-landing. The waiter holds a candle while the maitre d' bangs the bottom of a copper pan twelve times with a wooden spoon. The lights go on, there is a round of desultory applause from the assembled diners, and the everything goes quiet again.

In the streets outside, silence. Happy New Year indeed.

How we would have loved some merry group or other to liven up the proceedings.

Let those who have never been a little loud and high-spirited in a restaurant assemble in the courtyard and stay there, so that you don't depress everyone else.

[Anthony Nielson]

As a 15 year French resident with a wine shop in La France Profonde, and an avid listener to Europe 1, I am delighted to find other fans of Nicolas Canteloup.The joy of listening to him sometimes brings tears of mirth to my eyes. Of course his imitations are stunningly realistic, but his real forte is in the words he puts into the mouths of sportsmen and politicians alike. I am astonished that he gets away with it. Like much French humour, his satirical attacks can be very cruel.

We don't have many Brit hooligans in this part of the woods but it is true that the average Brit is no longer the type who snapped up the classiest properties in the area and discretely enjoyed them. Broadly speaking the first wave of immigrants had an old fashioned education which gave them a basis for communicating with the natives, who were in turn most pleased to accept the, usually undeclared , extra Francs they provided.

I dare say their children continued the ancient , and highly enjoyable , practice of dressing up, dining well, getting drunk, singing vulgar songs and maybe letting off a fire extinguisher or two
(if available). Most of them ,I suspect, became responsible and eminent citizens, contributing to public life.

Although Ryanair has contributed hugely in widening the market for partying to the whole of Europe, I have noticed that it is no longer the Dutch who have the smartest, newest cars, but the British. And with the new cars comes the new money. And with the new money comes new confidence to throw it around, and indeed act like Lords! Was not life ever thus?

If it is of any consolation , my wife, who is French, is appalled by the behaviour of her own 'compatriotes'when we go abroad.

"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose" n'est ce pas?

[michael elbourne]

At least the brits know how to laugh at themselves and criticize themselves you would never get that here the mantra is are,t we great which they all repeat like parrots

[Peter Mason]

Having, in the last couple of days, started to read Jeremy paxman's 'the english' I'm struck by the irony of this blog. The usual 20th century view of the British abroad was that they were taciturn, undemonstrative and largely 'anal'. As Paxman points out they were ridiculesd for this. Now that they are less uptight they are condemned for being too noisy and demonstrative. Very much a case of 'damned if they do and damned if they don't'.

Personally I'd welcome a return to the phlegmatic days. All these public histrionics everytime some-one, especially supposed celebrities, stubs their toe or something are utterly embarrassing.

A thought for Mr Elbourne. Surely the British are just as chauvinistic, it's merely that the chauvinism shows itself in a different way?

[maggie]

Well, a lot of these comments hold some truth, but for me the French are inherently cold, unreliable & far too concerned with appearances.
The following story enforces it.

A highly intelligent & very talented African artist friend of ours, was offered a French scholarship to live & study in Paris for 2 years.
There was much publicity & celebrating for him in his country , Malawi.
Not to mention, chest beating at the time [ by the French ] on how generous are we, the French goverment etc.

Then silence, nothing. !

Imagine the disappointment for this poor young chap, he tried for a year to get the promise fulfilled, with details & paperwork.

All to no avail, he is now looking to other countries for another scholarship, in the meantime has found a job lecturing on art in his own country at Chancellor College at the University Of Malawi.

This to me, yet again shows French posturing , & an inabilty to carry through, fulfill the promise, take responsiblity for their actions.
Letting such a vulnerable person down in such a way, does the French no favours, but surprises few.
No doubt when his work becomes recognised the French government will jump on the band wagon saying THEY recognised his work first & try to claim credit for it.

I don't think the Brits would ever behave this way, we do tend to mean what we say.

Anyone wishing to view his work go to.:

massa.50webs.com

[Isabelle]

@maggie

I can understand the disappointment of your friend and it is a scandal.
Nevertheless this is one case. I am not sure if one can extrapolate to the whole French society.
Obviously I sare your oppinion about French telling themselves (rather than others) how good and great they actually are. I can't count any more the number of times I heard on the news (!) the Champs Elysées called "le plus bel boulevard du monde" - "the most beautiful boulevard in the world". Apart from the fact that such a message should not have place in the news, it is simply an opinion and requires that the guy at leat knows every single boulevard in the world in order to say such a thing. I think it is highly unlikely that he does ...
Anyway, I don't think that being noisy at a table is impolite as long as it doesn't get vulgar.
What is absolutely unforgiveable is arrogance.

[Ronald Grünebaum]

I had not realised how much the English are like the Germans: More money than style and always convinced that all others are still sitting on trees. I'd say: Close Ryanair and bring on the economic slump in the UK!

[LN]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who minds drunkards and banknote-flashing: 'we pay so we have every right'.
A couple of years ago, I did students' jobs in catering etc. As I spoke English, I often had to serve British (and American) 'guests'. I really wondered why they had bothered to come to France at all: surely it doesn't make any difference whether you get drunk in the UK or on the continent? And I did notice that they didn't come from the upper classes.
Anyway, in Rumania, it's worse: western Europeans seem to visit the country solely for the cheap booze and the cheap sex, so much that the locals are taken aback if you decline their offer to take you to a bar or whatever.

[Ian Varey]

Regarding Brits Abroad: I have worked in pub for a long time. Between 8.30 and 10.30 in the evening the decibels in the pub where I work go up drastically (almost drowning out the juke box which is up to full volume). So I do agree that some Brits abroad can be very loud. I lived in Paris for three years, Toulouse for one year, Beziers for one year, St.tropez for year and Brittany for over a year as well as near Colmar for nearly a year. I have quite extensive experience of the French and have this to say:
For every loud Brit (and other nationalities)there are about 3-4 quite ones, so Brits are no different from other nationalities and musn't be judged as different. The French most certainly are not quiet, indeed, quite rowdy, especially when they have won the Rugby, football or what ever else they've won, even when they have had nothing to drink. When they have had a drink, they are even more rowdy....if you don't believe me ..go to Brittany or rue Princesse in the 6eme. And if you think being pregnant, drunk and excessively loud and French whilst being thrown out of a bar near Metro Mabillon onto the ground by a bouncer is Parisian chic then the world certainly has gone mad! Come on parisians, no-one likes loud people. On many fronts, I agree that some Brits are like this, but so are some French people, German people etc. Most British people I know love going to France for holidays or love living there.......don't judge a nation using a percentage point of information or I'll start doing the same...and am well qualified, having lived among you for many years....

[Ian Varey]

Re: Brits in France. Having lived and worked in a pub in the UK for a long time, I certainly can confirm that between 8.30-10.30pm the decibels "go up a noch" as the booze level increases. Well, so what...? I have also lived in Paris for three years, Toulouse for one year, Beziers for one year, St.tropez for one year, Brittany for a year and a half and near Colmar for just under a year. I have extensive experience of the French and have this to say about the comments: French people are no different re rugby, Football or whatever other competition they win...the celebrate it. Good for them. On a night out together they can be equally exhuberant.To say they are quiet is a lie. The same exhuberance exists in France, only social convention prevents them from venting it. And, if you think that being pregnant and drunk (and French) whilst being thrown out of a bar near Metro Mabillon is Parisian chic, then the world has gone barking!! Go to Rue Princesse and the surrounding area on Fridays and Saturdays and watch the French at play...and your opinion of French politesse will change. Of course, some Brits abroad are noisy, but the same thing could be said of any nationality. Let's consider a group of Scots, for example, who, on one occasion on line 1, were all dressed in their kilts, completley drunk and lying on their back revealing their genitalia to whoops of laughter and rapturous applause from all the French on the train? (laughs and rapturous applause?). I once had a scottish boss when i lived in Brittany and while having a night out with the team(who were mostly English), he told the local French that he was better than the English because he was Scottish....Mmmm...interesting..I think the Parisians and the French have a low tolerance of the English which is akin to racism. Come on French people, everyone is noisy when they've had one too many or when they are abroad and in groups, even you. Don't judge a nation on a percentage point of information...or I have plenty more stories about the French, having lived among you for a considerable amount of time.....

[Corinne]

The Brits are notorious, not just in France but all over Europe, for being loutish, loud, rude and of course sunburnt. As a Brit living in France, I have had the fortune to meet and befriend people from many different countries.
I recall a statement made repeatedly, in a reassuring and well-meaning manner, by several of my foreign friends (Swedish, Dutch, French and Swiss) regarding my nationality,''Don't worry, you don't SEEM English!'
I have to confess that I was rather flattered...

[steve]

Corrine, maybe while enjoying your stay in France we can only hope that you open your eyes and realise that no MATTER how well meaning and reasuuring racist comments are they are still ignorant and dangerous. Maybe while you wile away the hours despartely seeking approval from your Dutch, French and Swiss friends you might want to open up a couple of books on how these bastions of manners and good behaviour treated the Jewish , sick or travelling members of their communities a few decades ago......... NO!, thought not.