Vienna goes quiet for Bush

It is a hot and steamy morning in Vienna and commuters on the Maria Hilferstrasse were venting their wrath at George W Bush as I walked by. A gaggle of teenaged school pupils passed with anti-US banners under close police supervision and some jammed drivers joined in the chant: "Go away Bush. We don't want your war".

The US President is in the Austrian capital.  He has landed with full entourage for just a few hours for his annual session with European Union dignitaries. The diplomatic mood is improving and the talks will help advance EU-US actions over Iran, the Middle East and North Korea and may help over the blocked world trade round. But you have to wonder whether the brief presidential drop-by -- before a one-day visit to Hungary -- is worth the vast logistical effort.

I have covered summits for years, going back as far as the last US presidential visit to Vienna -- by Jimmy Carter to sign the SALT II nuclear arms pact with the Soviet Union in 1979.  Since those years,  the security operation around summits, wherever they are, has expanded geometrically.  By far the biggest attend the movements of POTUS, as the White House calls the President of the United States. Since September 2001, these have reached absurd proportions. The centre of Vienna has been locked down since Bush's arrival on Air Force One last night. Streets are closed to traffic and parks and squares are locked shut.  Bomb disposal squads are checking suitcases. The unusual quiet makes it feel like a prettier version of Soviet Moscow on the morning of the old November parades.

Military helicopters are hovering over the Hofburg, the old Imperial Palace, where Bush meets the current commanders of Europe: Wolfgang Schussel, Austrian Chancellor and curent President of the Union Council, and Jose-Manuel Barroso, President of the EU Commission.

We are working alongside in the usual vast press centre inside a cordon of about 2,000 police. To enter means penetrating three cordons, with the right credentials. At two of them, they searched all my bags and asked me to show that my computer and mobile phone were real. Dogs then sniffed them, along with the laundry in my overnight bag. Across the lawns in the beautiful Palace square, a few authorised demonstrators are milling around.

This is not criticism of Austrian hospitality, just a lament to excessive precautions that the Americans impose on their hosts. In the Cold War days, neutral Austria was sympathetic to the United States,  whose post-war diplomacy had helped save them from the Soviet occupation that smothered their neighbours. In 2006, Austrian opinion of the United States has reached a low ebb. According to the Pew Center survey of European attitudes this week, two thirds of Austrians have a negative view of the Americans. This was close to the level of the most anti-American nation, Spain, with only 23 percent approval. Not surprisingly, the USA is most popular in Britain, where 56 percent hold a positive view. This is not to say that the Austrians have turned off the bits of America that they like. Desperate Housewives is the television hit of the year here.

The sources of old Europe's discontent with America -- Iraq, the Guantanamo Bay prison and CIA "renditions" of prisoners, are being brought up by the EU side today, but not too heavily. Hans-Gert Pottering, chief of the EPP, the European Parliament's conservative bloc, put it: "We need to make it clear that we are friends and partners of America. But because we're friends, we also need to make it clear to them that Guantanamo is not compatible with our values and must be closed."

If I may be personal, that surely is the view of most pro-Americans. I love the States, have lived and worked there and my three children are US citizens. It is sad that many of the actions and the sanctimonious language of Bush -- his "War on Terror" and preaching about tyranny -- are in conflict with what we admire about America.

Bush will have a friendlier welcome later today when he drops into Budapest to mark the 50th anniversary of the uprising against the Soviets. The Hungarians are still fonder of Uncle Sam than the Austrians.

UPDATE: (for full version, see Times Online homepage)

Bush pulled out the stops to be conciliatory after the summit, telling the Europeans that he understood their misgivings over his policies. Europe did not understand the force of the 2001 attacks on the United States, he said. "For Europe, September 11 was a moment. For us, it was a change of thinking..." Those poll figures depicting America as the biggest threat to world peace were absurd, he said. "We are a transparent democracy. We debate things in the open." He knew that he was unpopular in Europe, but history would judge his decision over Iraq to be just, he insisted. At the same time, he wanted to close the Guantanamo base prison as quickly as possible. "I told the Europeans of my deep desire to end the programme, " he said.  Schussel, the Austrian Chancellor, came to his rescue, telling Austrians not to be naive about the need to fight terrorism. Schussel, who was born in 1945, said that he would never forget that the United States had fed and cared for his country after the war.

Comments

[Kathryn Platzer]

Interesting blog and summed up very well the anger of the Viennese (particularly) of having the city literally hijacked by the Bush visit. I was walking my dog in the Prater yesterday evening and couldn't get home on foot because of all the streets being blocked. The number of times I heard it said: "Dieser blöder Bush" and I had an etymological epiphany. Is blöd (stupid), I wonder, the Anglo-Saxon antecedent for bloody? It sounds almost the same when you're cross!!

[James Asbury]

Bush lives in fear when he travels, bravery is not one his his strong points.

[Deborah MacDonald]

Wow, and all of us over here in the United States are sleepless with worry over what the Austrians think about our country and President Bush. Europeans can continue to hate us, and probably will, until the next time they want something from us. What a bunch of ingrates. I wonder why America even bothers with them.

[Kathryn Platzer]

Europeans don't "hate" the United States or the Americans. On the contrary, most like your country and its people. Most, however, take exception to the somewhat dubious motives for going to war in Iraq, to being lied to by Bush and Blair about the existence of weapons of mass destruction (the original excuse for commiting troops to that country), and to the United States' belief that it can invade a country without permission from the United Nations. Europeans also in general believe that Americans are not as well informed as they should be on world affairs because the media there is increasingly state-controlled.

[Ryan Cursons]

America's time will come, Europe is rising to new heights in prosperity, it's only a matter of time before Europe leaves the US in their wake.

[K Clark]

It sounds like the only things you "admire about America" are its crap television programmes.

While I don't want to sound too much like an apologist for Bush, it seems to me that fighting tyranny and terrorists are precisely the things that America stands for.

[Bob]

Deborah said it well.

The Europeans only like America when it's convient for their security and safety.

Like, from Soviet Russia, and Hitler. Than again, wasn't it the Austrians who quickly threw themselves into their Hitler's open arms, while the British & American's gave their lives to liberate them??? Than the USA protected them all those years from the Soviets taking their nation over.

What a laugh riot joke, these Austrian's and French are

It appears, that when the Muslem terrorist's want to slaughter and torture innocent people, including military members, that's ok. "BUT", let the US do anything about it, than that upsets the poor Eurpeans. Yea right? let the terriorists do what they like. Let's give them fancy, nice treatment. Let them torture and kill us, nuke us. Let's just not do anything terrible to them.

Well, I like other good hard working American's are sick of the Europeans bashing the USA. If you don't like this nation, than go your own way. Fight your own wars, and keep the Russians at bay yourselves.

Europe, just remember "one nightmarish" thing. The day will come when those terrorists, you want to protect so well, and bash us over. Will, perhaps have a nuclear device which they will use against your nations, and our nation. Than what are you going to do? Ask for the USA to help you bury your dead children? I think not, as we'll be busy burying our's.

I agree with Deborah 100%, and I say "GO TO THE DEVIL"!! Europe.

I wish American could become Isolatist,100%. But that's not going to happen anytime soon, unfortunately.

[James]

The Euros are so two-faced. If Bush didn't come to Vienna, they'd all be wimpering about his 'arrogance.' Now that he's there, they're wimpering about the inconvenience of it. The only common thread? Wimpering.

Of course Bush has lots of security! There are thousands of Islamofanatics who would try to kill him (along with trying to destroy American cities with nuclear bombs). If European security is so great, why do Islamofanatics find it so easy to blow up people on London and Madrid subways?

Europe's losing its civilization; it's depopulating itself; it can't afford to pay its aging population what it's promised; it's becoming Islamicized; it's in full appeasement mode with Muslim terrorists; - and it's going to take a valiant, valiant stand over terrorists being incarcerated at Guantanamo!

Here's the truth. Guantanamo will be closed so that the little Euro weenie appeaseniks can save face - and say they stood up to power - and that they actually accomplished something in this world. How pathetic - begging for a bone to be thrown to them while ignoring all the problems which are going to destroy them.

James

[Theo]

Every single city Bush travels to including London gets the same treatment - lock-down, excessive demands by the secret service, protests moved out of the way, total congestion. If his body guards dont get given full immunity to shoot anyone as they see fit its a good indication that that country is 'higher-up' on the friends list to be able to deny such a request. If there are no anti-Bush protests then its very likely that the host country is a 3rd world dictatorship and if the police shoot the protesters it means that the country is really sucking up to America. What happens during a Bush visit is therefore a great political acid test.

[Denise Denovan-Jones]

In reply to D MacDonald
Not that old chestnut, is that the best comment you can come up with. Honestly, if you cant take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Your own people will thank you for it and so will the rest of us.

[Jonathan Finkle]

Some of us Americans do lose sleep over what the rest of the world thinks of us. It is foolish to be too terribly provincial and snub the rest of the world.

[Iain Dobson]

Not all Europeans hate the US however you do have to ask how the quite remarkable transformation of anti-American sentiment lies with a particular individual: POTUS. In reality I believe it is the American public who are to blame for allowing the media to control their information which allowed for the current state that they are in. I think America was great, but I wont be going back for a number of years till they get themselves sorted out. One can only hope they have not gone too far to turn back the damage done.

I urge America to look at it's history books (ok, well, maybe our history books) and stop this insular "The world hates us but we don't care" because baby - one day, the knock will come to your door.

[Robert Marchenoir]

Now it seems some simplistic, two-dimensional Americans have discovered this blog. Give me British sophistication any time, even in this chav-infested era.

To these ignorant, cocksure poseurs, let me remind you that the Spanish are among the strongest opponents to the United States among Europe. Yet, they also happen to have been hit very hard, very recently, by islamist terrorism. Apparently, they do not seem to think that they "need" America in order to fight these terrorists, at least if "need" means approving anything and everything coming from these shores.

Also, for Europe, terrorism has been a familiar and bloody reality for decades. European police forces have a long record of succesfully fighting terrorists on their own soil, islamists, communists and others.

America essentially woke up to the menace on 9/11, and deluded itself into thinking that the proper answer was to wage a "war" against terrorism. Terrorism cannot be defeated through war. It needs long-term undercover police work, international co-operation (as opposed to bragging about countries you don't need) and appropriate foreign policies.

Arrogant American bloggers notwithstanding, United States authorities admit they owe a lot to the anti-terrorist French police with which they work hand in hand in the heart of Paris.

So please give me a break, and go read a few books and websites beyond CNN and Fox News, if you really care to understand a bit of what is happening outside your own gated community.

[Jim]

I was in London for Bush's last visit and was told not to look out of my office window incase US security though we were potential assassins. Since then there have been multiple visits by other heads of state, none of which have had similar paranoia. Is it any wonder the US has an identity problem when they insist on disrupting peoples lives for their own selfish needs?

[James]

"To these ignorant, cocksure poseurs, let me remind you that the Spanish are among the strongest opponents to the United States among Europe. Yet, they also happen to have been hit very hard, very recently, by islamist terrorism."

---

Right - the same Spanish that rewarded the Madrid terrorists by doing exactly what those terrorists wanted them to do. Spain is just a big ole fat terrorist appeaser. It will end poorly for Spain or anyone who appeases evil (just like in World War II).

James

[James G]

As a Briton I am disgusted by some of the brianless anti-Americanite comments displayed here. You should be very ashamed of your ignorance and prejuidice. I too believe that the if the United States stands for anything it is opposition to totalitarianism and terrorism. Due to my nationality I am very aware of the siren nature of appeasement, but is was simply cowardice to appease the fascists and the communists and cowardice to try to appease the Islamo-Fascists.

I am Hungarian and all I can say to some of posters above that we are no longer interested in the Great European intellectual inventions, that is the Fascism and Marxism. You brought nothing else but death camps and gulags to this Continent.
Weren't for Reagan you would be still shooting people at the Berlin Wall and spewing bulshit while pounding the table with your shoe.
God Bless the States and Pres. Bush in Hungary.

[Edward Johns]

Xenophobia or what ! I (a Brit living in France)for one can understand US policies as regards security. Have the September 11th mass-murders been forgotten already ? Allright, for years the Irish Republican terrorist movement was largely funded with United States donations, that's politics for you. At the end of the day envy has to be behind the animosity displayed towards the worlds strongest nation, everyone hates whoever is at the top of the heap. Nobody is on Goliath's side in a conflict are they ? Would another Sarajevo style assasination (of President Bush) somehow help World peace ?

[Sandrine]

"We need to make it clear that we are friends and partners of America. But because we're friends, we also need to make it clear to them that Guantanamo is not compatible with our values and must be closed."

Well said.

By the way Mr Bremner, your posts are -as always- very interesting, but the people who come here to make some comments are definetely less congenial than before...
La rançon du succès ?

[Ken Wells]

They led America into believing that we were under an imminent threat of attack from Iraq. That mushroom clouds would appear on our shores if we did not move quick enough. Of course this was all lies. Because of these lies they rushed the troops into battle without the proper equipment or personnel. They clearly lied us into the war in Iraq and intentionally drew us away from the ‘war on terror’. Their PNAC (http://newamericancentury.org/index.html) desire for empire produced thousands dead, thousands more injured, billions stolen, a broken and destabilized Iraq and created themselves into the best recruiting tool the fundamentalists Islamic extremists have ever had. The whole administration seems to be guilty of treasonous type activity and likely war crimes for invading a country on false pretenses, intentionally using illegal and inappropriate weapons around civilian populations and misrepresenting our reasons for being there to the American public and the world.
President Bush is a uninformed figurehead doing the bidding of others while spreading the lies they struggle to teach him to annunciate. He's a terribly horrible president and he scares me. The Bush administration and the Republican leadership do not tolerate criticism very well. The whole either your with us are against us type of thing. The Republicans have been screaming that any public political dissent involving the war with Iraq or on terror is sedition. They are using the excuse that they believe this is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. As if we just kept our mouths shut the insurrection would just end and we would suddenly be victorious. Nonsense, they just want to behave dastardly at home and abroad and lie with impunity. They want the American people kept away from the truth and only witnessing smiling approving faces for anything coming from the Bush administration. Now that their polls are down and their getting backed into a corner the whole lot of them scares me even more. What do they have cooked up for us and the world next? I wonder to what extent they are willing to go to silence their opposition. The only reason that the nation hasn’t gone over totally to fascism is because of the half of America that refuses to go along with Neocon nonsense. Bush should be impeached. At the very minimum Congressional investigations should be started. But the Republicans will never allow that to happen.

[Rossman]

Hey Bob,

Before you go on an anti-Euro rant, take an English class. Your sorry posting symbolizes the state our pathetic American educational system. Get an editor and go read a few books. Your knee-jerk reactionary BS is an embarrassment to fellow Americans. If you don't know how to intelligently represent yourself in the global community, keep it to yourself. We aren't interested if we can't understand you.

[kurt hunt]

Deb, Bob and James, along with Bush, Guantanamo, and Abu Greb are our great national embarrasment. On behalf of the better educated, more civilized 50% of Americans who abhor Bush, I apologize to our European friends. Please be patient, and in the meantime, don't pull your punches when it comes to critizing Bush. Remember, 50% of us hate him at least as much as you do.

[David Mickelson]

Among the many faults with this article is the argument that the president's security isn't necessary. In fact, there are probably hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of people who would risk their lives to kill him. Ronald Reagan was shot but lived. John F. Kennedy was shot and died. We have lost four presidents to murder out of 43 in our history--a very dangerous job! Just last year in Georgia (the country) someone managed to get a live grenade within a few dozen feet of the president. In short, he wouldn't survive long without the security apparatus.

[MCD of USA]

Typical European whining and ignorance.
Typical anti-American stereotypes
Oh, and if there is more fuss when Bush is around, that would be because He is the President of the most powerful Nation in the World.

[D. MacDonald]

Ah yes, it's me again the "arrogant American". As far as "the same old chestnut", if it fits honey, it fits. Gee, I think this is also the first time in my life I've been called so many names! It's just like being in grade school again. Apparently you're only allowed to post here if you agree with Mr. Bremner and other readers who agree with him. Don't you allow free speech and observations on this site?

[DL]

Those savvy Europeans, they're so sophisticated and cosmopolitan. They're so worldly and peaceful human beings that they slaughtered each other like no one else in history during the last century. Forgive me for not knowing the exact figure but it seems to me that I once read the Euros killed 15 million of their own sophisticated kind and that was just during WWII. Now that is one peaceful and sophisticated accomplishment. Oh yes, and it took the unsophisticated Russians and the unsophisticated Americans to put a stop to the whole mess.

Yes we unsophisticated Americans must learn from the Europeans. We should learn how to slaughter millions because they are Jews or because they are Gypsies or because they are Catholic or because they have brown hair or… just because.

Yes the Euros have accomplished what no other people of the world have done, they have become so sophisticated that they are going to disappear from the face of the Earth, and they will be replaced by the Islamic hordes who are beginning to change the face of the continent. In a few years the white Euros will be bowing to Mecca 5 times a day, and as the Germans like to say, “Und you vill luf it”

The problem with the Europeans is that they have put themselves on this high horse not realizing that it is not a horse but an ASS.

[daniel]

One shouldnt confuse George bush with the US. Bush has been an idiot as president, alienating many, and being frank, invading the wrong countries (I would invade Iran and North Korea myself).

The US has been a force for good, when us Europeans, with the honorable exception of the U.K. caved in or embraced Hitler, caved in to the Soviets, the Americans provided strength.

To dislike Bush is understandable, but to dislike the Americans is ungrateful. and simply stupid. Lets face it we have weakened ourselves so much militarily that we couldnt even run bombing missions in serbia.

Europe has no answers to the terrorism problem - and one commentator who says we have successfuly dealt with is seriously misguided. Yes we have solved some issues, by giving them what they want, and then only as in northern ireland when at least some were willing to compromise. So if we had given Kuwait to Saddam, let the Palestinians destroy Israel etc the perhaps some might be satisfied. Of course then we would have to allow sharia law for muslims in europe, etc etc etc.

Finally it is true that the US has ignored us on occasion- and why not, we are weak, getting poorer, and increasingly of no consequence. Face it when you dont matter, you dont matter.

So I agree, I dont like George bush either, but does a weak aging protectionist europe really have anything to say. If I were the US, I would just make some soothing noises and ignore us - which might be what is happenning

[Flocon]

Comments as sophisticated and elaborate as those by Deborah and Bob certainly help to understand why the image of the US is so positive the world over...
Regarding terrorism, it may be interesting to remind them that France had its fair share of islamic terrorism in the 80'/90'. Perpetrated by Algerian militants sponsored by the Saudis -good friends of America- at a time when America and Britain (remember Londistan?) couldn't care less as long as France was the target... And some day they woke up and now they pretend to teach the whole world about how to fight terrorism...
Robert Marchenoir has it right: "Go read a few books and websites beyond CNN and Fox News"...

[Flocon]

One wonders if Daniel has ever heard of N. Chamberlain who certainly didn't cave in to Hitler. Or O.Mosley? The Prince of Wales?
Should the British engineers be thanked for being bright enough to have put the English channel between Albion and the Nazi Wehrmacht?
No tongue in cheek now: W. Churchill was a giant as compared to any American of his time. And the British people behaved bravely during these years. The Battle of Britain will forever be the finest hours of the British. All the more since they were alone at that time, the Yanks let them down until they were attacked themselves. Until then, they maintained good relations with Nazi Berlin. Brits are too forgiving toward their former colonials!

[Cactus]

All the books in the world ain't gonna help ya if ain't got no backbone.

[Hugh Kennedy]

While I do believe we were mislead over Iraq, Bush always said he wanted regime change - it was Blair who needed the self-defence argument more, and pushed it too far.

As to terrorism - I grew up outside Belfast through the 70s and 80s so I think I know something about living with it. I do think that the US has a lot to answer for with it's knee jerk reaction to 9/11, horrible as that was, and I do think the old saying "When the only tool you have is a hammer, all problems look like nails" applies.

If I have learned anything from growing up in NI, it is that even if you wiped out every islamic "terrorist" tomorrow, new ones would arise the following day if the grievances that motivate them are left unassauged, and each "terrorist" who dies becomes a "martyr" to the cause.

The US will learn that as the cost of the "War on Terror" mounts. Even Margaret Thatcher moved from letting hunger strikers die to negotiating the Anglo-Irish agreement, a step on the way to the imperfect Peace.

When the ten's of Billions become ten's of Trillions, and the problems at home are crying out for cash, the Americans will change their polices and realise as Europe learnt decades ago that you can't bludgeon your way to peace with armed strength - sometimes you have to compromise with those with you own blood on their hands.

Bush was wrong, but he and his cohorts have discredited their policies in the eyes of too many americans, let alone the rest of the world.

I believe this current spat with the US will blow over soon. Why? The rise of China and the unstoppable movement of the Economic center of the world to SE Asia.

In 50 years, Europe will be poor and old and looking at the new Economic and Military superpower in the East that owes nothing to Europe in terms of Civilisation, and remembers Europe as a source of pain and woe in the 19th and 20th Centuries.

We will need a powerful friend across the Atlantic. I just hope more people realise that before fools and the Politicians that pander to them poison Americans attitudes so much that they decide to leave Europe to rot in the poverty of it's beliefs.

[Curtis LeMay]

Funny, but I don't remember euros bitching' and moaning' when Bubba Clinton closed off streets and towns in euroland when he went to visit there.

I do, however, remember the same amoeba driveling the same bile when President Reagan when to visit.

Funny, that.

Guess what continentals? What you do ro don't think of our President don't mean squat to the average person on the street here. Heck, even the East and Left Coast "intelligentsia" couldn't give a toss, frankly.

Get over it.

[Frank L]

It's hilarious that people like DL, Bob, Deborah McDonald, and James are trashing the Europeans as ingrates, clueless, and worse -- and yet are religiously reading the Times of London! The definition of hypocrisy and two-facedness.

[James]

Old Europe is doomed, living in its socialism, to get as much out of the government as possible, having lost its Christian purpose, making abortion and sodomy virtues while failing to beget new children, tolerating the gradual and incessant takeover of society by Muslims, the erosion of the family, reveling in political correctness, where no truth can be stated for fear of offending someone, paying out in cash every month to retirees and health care plans a huge chunk of whatever the young ones manage to earn, destroying the will to work and invest, with freedoms of religion and speech under constant attack, which no longer is able to identify evil or muster the will to fight it, and where the huge Satan of the world is the United States (which rescued it, Europe, from three huge tragic idiocies in the 20th century [WWI, Nazism and communism].

All that can really rescue Old Europe is an embrace of Christianity - but Old Europe's inhabitants are now legions of the Brave New World, living for the self rather than the good - living for the retirement or welfare benefits, for late night porn on the TV, and for a month each year on the nude beaches of Spain.

There's just not much there anymore.

James

[Chris]

As an American and neither a clear cut liberal nor conservative, these are troubling times. I didn't vote for Bush, yet I will not stand in the street to bash the man out of respect for his office. I am appalled at the acrimony we receive from many Europeans. We as a nation have always loved Europe; they are the ancestors of most of us. No other group of nations receives the colective attention that we lavish out than does Europe. So many things we aspire to and hold dear are a result of our fascination with our homelands. When we want good food, we talk about Italian and French; love our german beer, copy the cultured manners of our great friend Britain. Certainly we eat hamburgers and frankfurters, our own creations, but they are laughed at as the most base of foods to even the poorest of us. When we move up in the world, only French wine will do, (even if california's is now better...in our mind its not as good, because its not European.) We seemingly love the social welfare of the Scandinavian countries, although I disagree with it myself. We rave about "Old World" Craftsmanship. The world spins around European culture in our country.

It is aggravating that Europeans should judge us so harshly when we pursue matters that they choose to ignore. What else are we expected to do, wait for the next conflict to escalate until its almost too late to win it?

Here is something that Europeans should chew on: Why does America have the most powerful military in the world today? You should know; it was built for you. European politics created it, and demand its use so often that we have had no choice but to keep a standing army of its kind. After the first great war, america demobilized its large army, because we didn't need it. After our own civil war, the army fell into disrepair, disregard, and dissolution, because we had little need for it for ourselves. After World War II, what else were we to do? The nations of Europe couldn't stand alone in the face of Soviet aggression. And we would never let our mentors, who we loved dearly despite their antagonism towards each other, suffer that alone. I have no problem with Europeans questioning our policies...we have pulled some boneheaded moves as of late, but I am aghast that so many so-called "peace-advocating" Europeans think it is perfectly okay to bash us continually for trying to correct mistakes that resulted of European colonialism. Contrary to many of your beliefs on our educational system, we have history books in America too, and apparently we are not the nation that repressed the middle east, the far east, india, French indo-china, Africa, the Dutch East Indies, and countless other third world nations. We are paying for our forebears' mistakes though, aren't we? The sins of the father writ large across an entire nation. Western Civilization that the middle easterners hate did not begin in america, did it? We are just the epitomy and seat of farthest expansion; we are the visage of the powerful white-faced western culture that dominated and exploited the world for the last 5 centuries. We had precious little to do with it, but guess who is hated for it?

Our best political move would be to embrace the South Americans as much as we can, as they are potentially a huge market for our goods and culture, and strategically, would make ideal allies. I would love an administration that made that its priority. Unfortunately we are tied to Europe through blood and history, and we will always reap the misery of that association. We bear it as reality, and we still love Europe as our mentors and fathers despite all her flaws and inflictions on us. It is a pity that she seldom extends us the same courtesy.

[Chad]

I have to take issue with K Clark's comment: "It sounds like the only things you "admire about America" are its crap television programmes." I think Mr. Bremner's criticisms of the US's recent behavior are justified and on the nose, and aren't unnecessarily harsh. I think it would be hard to accuse someone whose three children are US citizens of being anti-American! In fact, I remember reading Bremner's stories when he was posted in New York and DC, and always enjoyed the affectionate annecdotes about life in the US.

[Paul]

Amen Chris. Amen.

[Katherine Barlow]

I agree in general with the comments of the gentleman signing himself "Chris" at 2.07AM,(although one should not fail to condemn Islam for its hand in the misery of human history), but his mistaken remark about Californian wine can be used to illustrate a greater reality. The vines in California were originally brought there by European settlers. In the 19th century French vineyards were wiped out by disease and the French were forced to import vines that had developed for centuries in the California vineyards and had become strengthened by different, harsher natural circumstances and were consequently more resilient. Thus, all French wine today, whilst originally European, did get there via the New World! Perhaps that should be the salient point to remember. We, Europeans and Americans, are grafted to one another, replenish one another and yet grow in separate cultures. Whether the finished product, be it wine or ideas, is full-bodied and refreshing, depends upon how they are tended and upon some influences beyond human control.

[MCD of USA]

Frank L.

What is hilarious is you not knowing the definition of hypocrisy or two-facedness. Trashing Europeans and reading the Times are not relevent to each other.

[Eric Price]

Old Europeans like the Austrians live in a unrealistic world as they have supressed and forgotten a lot of the past and now the past 1945 neo-socialist governments have rapped them in cotten wool. On the other hand the Hungarians and other former occupied Soviet countries still remember the horrors and understand the USA. But the truth is that the War on Terror has changed the rules of war as it has done in every war since the Boar War. We Brits invented Concentration Camps, the Germans misued them and now the Americans are still using them. So what? Now its Christians against the Moslems and another Crusade. Back to the Future!

[Edward Johns]

Chris, your comments sum things up very well. It will be interesting to see any reasoned response to them.

[Jacob-USA]

America is simply applying a form of political science which is called Détente a French term meaning a relaxing or easing, which has been used in international politics since the early part of the century. Generally, it may be applied to any international situation where previously hostile nations not involved in an open war "warm up" to each other and threats de-escalate. If an opposing nation does not warm up, for example North Korea and Iran currently in the world’s eyes. Then America eventually will go to war with those nations, for example Germany and Japan who love are movies and music so much. Every country in the world has the right to cut off trade to America as we do to other countries, yet it all boils down to money. We find a group of people in a foreign country which we intend to control through trade. Then we hand them the keys to the countries and all the wealth and power that comes with it. If we don’t end up with the type of greedy people that we like and also agree in most of what we ask of them, then we hand the keys over again to a new group of people. It’s the American way. 1% of America owns 50% of all the stocks. At the same time an average job in America starts out at 6 dollars an hour, which is barely enough to even pay for the cheapest apartment, not including the rest of life expenses, like food, gas and etc.
Why does the rich need so much and the poor so little? Example Europeans tax the rich up to 65% of their profit and America only 33%-35% including Bill Gates.
Why does America want to grow so fast at the expense of almost 80% of its citizens?
40% of Americans live check to check with nothing left over
Another 40% of Americans have repos, foreclosures and other forms of extreme financial problems
Only 20% can buy what ever they want, when ever they want
In America you are only consider unemployed for three to four months then it’s your fault for being unemployed and you’re not counted as unemployed anymore. That’s why we have an unemployment rate of 4-6%.
This is what America is spreading to your door step if it is not already there!
In my opinion it’s just another form of slavery, but now the masters are richer, more powerful and greedier than ever before. Yet humans as a whole are happy with what master is providing, so we say thank you for the left overs that falls off their plates and not ask how it came about and at what cost. Not a pretty analogy but I would equate it to ignorant slave that did not want to leave master house after the civil war in our country, because they were afraid of what the future has to offer them without masters help to survive, but with no risk, no reward.

This is what America is spreading to your door step if it is not already there!

[colin grayson]

how sad it is that he overwhelming majority of americans are decent people brainwashed by their own government ; or such is my experience ; having spent a year there just pre 911 , I was amazed to find that everything was the property of those who could afford to purchase it , be it political office , education , medical treatment or the more normal things that we expect to be available to us
when my father travelled to the US during WW2 , he described american citizens as the most friendy and hospitable people in the world [ and in 30 years in the Royal Navy of the day he met many !] ; he described how the ordinary working man could , on one pay packet , raise a family , buy a house on a mortgage , and have a car ; riches indeed to a british working man of the 30's

as to the friendliness and hospitality , nothing has changed ; problem was to find a polite way to refuse! met a lady on the bus in NYC who invited us to spend the weekend at her second home in the Hamptons !

but the sad fact was that the quality of life of the average american[ if such a person exists ] has fallen well below western european standards , but they believe that they have the best ; perhaps in a country where they have world championships in which only they participate , one should not be surprised

for me the greatest problem for them has been the media ...if it isn't american , it doesn't exist ; but the internet is just starting to open their eyes a little [ they think it is an american invention ...tim berners-lee must foam at the mouth ] , and things will change faster in the future

so don't give up on america ...the ugly americans you see are very much a minority

[Swift]

I'm with you on this one Sandrine! Bring back Victor Tan... (Is he on holiday?)

[Robert A. Diebold]

President Bush defends his invasion of Iraq with the claim that despots should and must be overturned and the people freed. Saddam, by comparison, was an angel considering the several rulers of African countries who for years have been killing, and starving their people with impunity. Now, what was the reason America -- not to mention Europe -- sit back and allow them to continue with their unspeakable pogroms? Oh yes...Oil. It seems one has to be the despotic leader of an oil-rich country to be worthy of intervention.

Robert A.

[Prabhat]

Perhaps not the most relevant person to offer an opinion but given that I have lived and worked in the States and Europe, along with some Asian economies, I think I can give an outsider's view to this current acrimony.

First of all, I don't think there is a big divide, which may lead to permanent fissures between Europe and States, as one may conclude after reading the comments here. However, there is a recent intellectual disparity between Americans and Europeans. Iraq was and will remain a blip in the history of relations between the US and Europe, much in the same vain as many other historical differences have been.
I don't think the divide today is due to a different approach to life and social values because both communities have been formed and sustained on largely Christian values and continue to do so. I think the difference is more in the way of life Americans and Europeans have come to lead after respective centuries of existence.
Europeans, as a result of their history of internal fighting and lessons (hopefully) from imperialist days, have a more refined view of humanity and what sustains a global community. This has inevitably resulted in having a more careful approach to reaching conclusions, diplomacy and most of all greater regard to fellow human and human tragedies. Having said that it will be wrong of me to assume every European is same. There are different levels of acceptance in European states of the US because of each individual State's own history. In some cases, it will be worthwhile to add, the States' political elite have found it politically expedient to propel their own agenda by egging people on to hate the US.
On the other hand, US has an almost "teenage" approach to its problems and a view that "I know the best". Yes most of the social changes propelled, historically, by the US have been pioneering and helpful to common man at large, however, that has inevitably resulted in a false sense of superiority (not of race but of intellect). Their response to terrorism is perhaps in the same vain.
Having said that, historically and currently, neither Europeans nor Americans can sustain on their own. From economic to cultural reasons either community needs the other.
Whilst Americans can continue to fume with Europeans' "I told you so" chiding, Europeans, on the other hand, can only look at Americans with envy for that spark, energy, drive, creativity and panache that Americans bring to a rather humdrum way of European life.

Personal rhetoric, as noticed here, aside, I don't think any member from either community may even be ready to contemplate how difficult the life would have been if the other had not been there historically, today and tomorrow.

Then again I could be wrong.

[Ed]

As a Brit, I still think America is a great nation made up of mostly good God-fearing folk. Unlike Europe, it hasn't lost the ability to stand up for principles, particularly moral ones. And that, underneath it all, is what bothers many Europeans. I say this even though I am sceptical of recent US foreign policy and opposed the war in Iraq which wasn't so much borne out of principle than out of vengeance and oil. But we all make mistakes that should be forgiven.

[James]

Americans are not 'brainwashed' by the
American government. President Bush reflects the will of the majority of Americans with regard to terrorism - which is precisely why he was reelected.

Now - with regard to Europe (particularly Old Europe) - a great many Americans are fed up and disgusted by the appeasement mentality of Europe and by the trashing of the United States. Most Americans had little respect for the French before the war on terror, now they have virtually none. They have bitter memories of the Germans in WWII, but thought we had become allies and friends; Shroeder ripped that away. Americans remember the sacrifice in WW's I and II, and the long twilight years of the Cold War, where we fought against communism in many parts of the world (while Europe's politicians and professors coddled up to communism). Americans know that, as a previous poster points out, we paid for Europe's defense for decades. Finally, it was America that brought the Cold War to a good and successful conclusion.

Europeans can whine and badmouth the US as much as they want. They are destroying whatever residual respect Americans had for them. Many Americans just see weakness, appeasement and betrayal.

James

[Mark]

I don't know if Bush will ever regret burning bridges with the USA's traditional allies in Europe but I predict that the priority of the next president will actively trying to rebuild them again.
Despite its military might, the USA is no longer a super power. In the modern world it is virtually impossible to bend another country to your will. Iraq has shown that it needs more than Britain and the token support of few other allies. It needs a diplomatic effort that bring in all the traditional countires of the western alliance plus the emerging economies in central europe.
Only if USA and Europe are united will they have any influence upon the rest of the world. Its about time to reassert our common values and culture rather than to fall out.

[colin grayson]

forgive me ed , but I rather had the impression that not even 25 % of adults voted for gwbush , in fact I think more voted for gore
perhaps someone can let me know if this is not correct

[Allyana Ziolko]

If President George W. Bush has a "new caring face", it's the only part of him that is caring - and be careful: It's probably make-up covering his real motive. The real motive is, more than likely, to bolster support for the Republican party in his own country and to aid the petroleum industry and his own personal interests, as well as those of his cronies.

If the President wanted Guantanamo closed, it could be done in a matter of days. Simply move the people who are being held to U.S. mainland soil, give them rights - lawyers, fair trials - the things the U.S. guarantees for all prisoners in the U.S. We have an infinitely far greater number of child molesters, rapists and violent gangs in the U.S. than we have terrorists roaming our streets. Our President has done *nothing* to address those issues or other issues that directly effect the American people such as health care and poverty.

The people in Guantanamo are only *suspected* of terrorist activities. No one who can report their story is even allowed to visit them. Indeed, even many of the families of the prisoners don't know where they are. And not to be overlooked is the fact that President Bush has terrorized the people of the United States with terrorist scenarios simply to sell his own agenda in the Middle East.

I was born and raised in this country and I find the fact that our government has stooped to allowing the President - and the Vice President - and Donald Rumsfeld - to do this is beyond embarrassing.

Allyana Ziolko
Atlanta, Georgia

[john gregory Flinn]

I think Mr bremner writes these posts on purpose to get us all going....!

President Bush seems more contrite than he was a year or so ago. Perhaps he recognises that Europe has a point and hopes to ameliorate our differences.
It is interesting to note the awareness of the threat from Islamo-fanatics amongst the 'posters', I just wish our governments here were as savvy about it as these posts demonstrate. But then governments are always last to to see the obvious.
However conducting an orthodox war against terror is not the way to defeat the threat.
Thanks to “laxisme” in democracies of the West, adherents to Islam are all among us. These have very little national patriotism. They are loyal to one nation of Islam and its people - wherever they are. Which is why moslems in europe and elsewhere attack us because they see us waging war on moslems themselves - not (necessarily) Iraq or Afghanistan. So, there are no conventional sides in such a war - the enemy is on all sides.
Europe had a problem with Islam and its ambitions before in the middle ages, whence the Crusades were started. The last one was in Spain when the Moors were driven out of their Caliphate in Andalusia,(or converted to christianity). Which, I believe Osama Bin laden wants back!
However socialism was'nt invented then, nor were all the other politically-correct nostrums that so handicap, and probably doom, our 'democracies' today. So, it seems unlikely that those old methods could be used.
Therefore, I am not sure democracy can ever solve this problem.
France probably has most experience at handling moslems in Europe as anywhere, from experience in its north african ex-colonies. It manages to control the political aspirations of the religion - that is Islam - better than most, but is not perfect. Far more stringent 'house-keeping' measures are needed europe-wide as well as foreign policy.

I read somewhere that many of the migrants who left Europe to found and settle the New World went because they were fed up with the way things were going in their mother-country - plus ca change....!

[Allyana]

Oh, Contrare....the American people *are* brainwashed by the President. You can say he won the majority of the vote; only in America can you have a President win an election with questionable votes carried in a state where his brother happens to be governor and have the election decided by a court that has judges sitting that have been appointed by his own party. I think history will find George W. Bush to be the architect of democracy's demise. He is arrogant; he is evasive; he is unimaginative. And if anyone remembers the pretense the American people were given to our invading Iraq, you may also call him dishonest.

[Robert Marchenoir]

All right, James. I suggested you read a few books and websites outside your usual beat. So here is my first lesson, just to get you started. It will also be the last. The gaps are too big for me to fill. You will have to do your own homework after this.

You write: "Old Europe is doomed, [...] making sodomy [a] virtue."

This is eminently debatable, but let us suppose just a minute you are right, for the sake of discussion.

The least we could say is that old Europe is humbled by young America in that respect. We do not come even close to you in the praise of sodomy. We do not have publicly-funded seminars, directed by state education officials, teaching fist-fucking to 14-year olds. (Pardon my language, I hope the Times moderators will not choke on their tea -- but this is a public-interest discussion, you see.)

We do not have state laws requiring public schools to teach 5-year-olds to appreciate homosexuality. We do not have school-resource books providing lesson plans for the promotion of cross-dressing. We do not have Transgender, Bisexual, Gay and Lesbian Awareness Day in high schools. We do not have 12-year olds being submitted to graphic descriptions of anal sex in AIDS education courses at school. Yet. But if, or rather when we do, we will know whom to blame.

Just in case you thought everything European is wicked or false, I took all these examples from an American magazine.

And lest you tell me this is a bunch of liberal lies, I picked it up from the conservative side of the media.

Introducing The City Journal, as strongly recommended reading:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/13_2_queering_the_schools.html

Also, you go on: "Old Europe is doomed, [...] reveling in political correctness, where no truth can be stated for fear of offending someone."

Alas, the second part of your assertion is true. But there again, we know whom to blame. Read "Culture of Narcissism: American Life in an Age of Diminishing Expectations", a seminal book written long ago by Christopher Lasch, an American, in 1979. He explains all there is to know about political correctness. And he is writing about the United States.

So my advice to you is: do not enter the blaming game, if you do not want it to backfire.

And a final thought on foreign politicy, since you seem to fear islamic terrorism so much: America cannot afford not to co-operate with Europe. If islamic terrorists strike again at the United States, they are very likely to come from, or through Europe.

Basically, if you want to survive, you will have to negociate with sodomites. I know, I know, it might be a pain in the ass, but, hey, that's life.

[James]

Old Europe can go its way; we'll go ours.

Americans have far more important things to do in this world than to listen to the French and the Austrians and the Belgians whine. Most Americans do not share 'European' values, and do not wish to.

James

[Flocon]

James: "Most Americans had little respect for the French before the war on terror, now they have virtually none."
(Ah ah, giggle...) According to the most recent Pew Research Center poll (http://tinyurl.com/e9aa6), 52% of Americans have a positive view of France...
Whereas 56% of the British have a favourable view of the US and 23% of the Spaniards share that opinion... And I thought they were part of new Europe... (ha ha, giggle...)
Have another try James... (lol)

[James]

I was trying to think of some benefit the United States gets from France or Austria or Belgium or Holland, etc. etc. (other than free trade among commercial enterprises). Nope. Can't think of any.

James

[Ed]

Colin, whether they voted for Mr Bush or not, Americans, on the whole, are principled people, Gore and the Democrats included. Compare, for instance, their views on social policy with that of Belgium, Spain or the Netherlands where literally anything goes and Europe's birth rate is declining partly as a result. There are culture wars going in the US, but at least 90% of Americans believe that a higher being will have the last word. Europe has lost that consciousness, is much the lesser for it and is, subconciously I believe, resentful that the US still has faith.

[James]

Hey Flocon,

Here's another poll, from the Financial Times.

Apparently, if these polls are to be believed, Americans think far more highly of France than the French.

European poll highlights French gloom on politics
By John Thornhill in Paris

Published: June 19 2006 03:00 | Last updated: June 19 2006 03:00

The depth of popular dissatisfaction in France has been underscored by a Harris opinion poll showing that 85 per cent of respondents think their country is heading in the wrong direction.

James

[James]

"Europe has lost that consciousness, is much the lesser for it and is, subconciously I believe, resentful that the US still has faith. "

---

Bingo, Ed, bingo.

James

[Frank L]

"Trashing Europeans and reading the Times are not relevent to each other."

Well, maybe not in your fantasyland.

"Most Americans do not share 'European' values, and do not wish to."

Our entire political and legal system is based on "European values," but "most Americans" do not share European values. Someone else living in a complete fantasyland.

[Jacob-USA]

America is simply applying a form of political science which is called Détente a French term meaning a relaxing or easing, which has been used in international politics since the early part of the century. Generally, it may be applied to any international situation where previously hostile nations not involved in an open war "warm up" to each other and threats de-escalate. If an opposing nation does not warm up, for example North Korea and Iran currently in the world’s eyes. Then America eventually will go to war with those nations, for example Germany and Japan who love are movies and music so much. Every country in the world has the right to cut off trade to America as we do to other countries, yet it all boils down to money. We find a group of people in a foreign country which we intend to control through trade. Then we hand them the keys to the countries and all the wealth and power that comes with it. If we don’t end up with the type of greedy people that we like and also agree in most of what we ask of them, then we hand the keys over again to a new group of people. It’s the American way. 1% of America owns 50% of all the stocks. At the same time an average job in America starts out at 6 dollars an hour, which is barely enough to even pay for the cheapest apartment, not including the rest of life expenses, like food, gas and etc.
Why does the rich need so much and the poor so little? Example Europeans tax the rich up to 65% of their profit and America only 33%-35% including Bill Gates.
Why does America want to grow so fast at the expense of almost 80% of its citizens?
40% of Americans live check to check with nothing left over
Another 40% of Americans have repos, foreclosures and other forms of extreme financial problems
Only 20% can buy what ever they want, when ever they want
In America you are only consider unemployed for three to four months then it’s your fault for being unemployed and you’re not counted as unemployed anymore. That’s why we have an unemployment rate of 4-6%.
This is what America is spreading to your door step if it is not already there!
In my opinion it’s just another form of slavery, but now the masters are richer, more powerful and greedier than ever before. Yet humans as a whole are happy with what master is providing, so we say thank you for the left overs that falls off their plates and not ask how it came about and at what cost. Not a pretty analogy but I would equate it to ignorant slave that did not want to leave master house after the civil war in our country, because they were afraid of what the future has to offer them without masters help to survive, but with no risk, no reward.

This is what America is spreading to your door step if it is not already there!

Its time to start looking at all World leaders including your own wherever you live. America only survives because of the compliancy of your leaders to not care about anything but how much money is going to be made if they get involved.

A vast majority of the leaders around the world are just products on a shelf to American corporations and government including our own, which are bought and sold as a comity with little concern about the plight of all humans.
Stop fighting where you come from and look at the bigger picture.
I ask for your help as fellow humans not as Nationals of one country, but as humans. To seek out a new way that benefits all humans not just some.

[MCD of USA]

Flocon

I don't know ANYONE who likes the French. I work in a very busy Salon and cross paths with many different people but the feeling is universal. That PEW poll is laughable, but I see you already realized that.

PS Just in case you think I'm some gun tote'n Republican cowboy, I assure you I am quite the opposite. I'm a big City Gal who voted Democratic in our last 2 elections.

[colin grayson]

beg pardon ed , it was james that said that the re-election of gwb reflected the wish of the majority of americans ; in reality I parallel it to chirac's re-election !! no viable opposition , also the people have been conned into believing they are at war; having been in a new york bar where people were contributing to the IRA I am not surprised , I would expect to have enemies as well
don''t understand your comment about 90% of americans believing in a higher being?what's that got to do with it ? does that make them better people? not in my experience

[Ed]

True, Colin, 90% of a population being believers does not necessarily make society better, but more often than not, it does. It's a generalisation of course, but Americans are open to having their conscience informed by a higher authority and their characteristic generosity, kindness and willingness to stand on principle can be put down to this historical fact.

[colin grayson]

well ed , in most islamic countries 99% of people believe in a higher being ; so following your logic , more often than not this makes their societies better than the USA

[James]

Here's the sad truth (and I mean that):

France (where la gloire has come down to the ability to stir up the Ivory Coast), Austria (Is Nazism bad or good? We can't decide. Is communism bad or good? We won't take a stand.), Belgium (We will regulate your weights and measures...), Holland (where old people are afraid to go to the hospital so as not to be euthanized, Germany (the world's biggest pimp, with thousands of government-sanctioned prostitutes at the World Cup), are becoming total irrelevancies to the future.

And truthfully, I do not either know anyone at all who likes the French (and I understand why).

James

[Frank Schnittger]

What a lot of bad tempered bile is generated on this (and other) blogs whenever the Europe versus America issue is raised! Usually it is personalised around George Bush, and crystallised around the War on Terror with particular reference to Iraq.

Americans like to bring up their mostly laudable contribution to the war against Fascism and Communism and focus on Europe’s alleged ingratitude in response. Europeans by and large don’t dispute this – though some may also point towards Americans imperialism since.

But the real argument is about the future, not the past. Having declared the “end of history” – the American Neo cons now appear to be seeing “reds under the bed” almost everywhere - although most of them are now termed islamofascists. It all sounds a bit like the demonisation of Jews by the Nazis and many others since.

In some ways it is almost like a New Testament versus Old Testament theological dispute about the true nature of man (and God). Americans seem to feel that history is a struggle between Good and Evil and the trick is to identify and kill the bad guys before they can do their (evil) thing.

Europeans have seen too many wars with God on both sides used as a justification for the killing. Former enemies have embraced each other as friends and have realised that nobody has a monopoly on good or evil (The Lion shall lay down with the Lamb). They resent the pressure they feel from Americans to engage in a dualistic theology – defining America as wholly good and the Islamic extremists (or whoever the Americans currently want to destroy) as wholly evil. (The “devil” has disappeared from mainstream European theology to be replaced the concept of the sinfulness of all men with no one having a greater right to start the stone throwing).

American’s seem to despair at the moral relativism of such a “whimpish” theology and appear to have no doubt that their greater military and economic might is ample evidence that God (and the much greater Good) is on their side.

This also feeds into the usual Left/Right economic debate about welfare statism versus individual freedom and enterprise. The Left see the Welfare state as the institutionalisation of Christian concern for the poor. The right as the very opposite: the institutionalisation of the poor in a state of permanent dependency and lack of freedom.

The Right see the .Market as a virtual implementation of the freedom of the Spirit – the Left as the institutionalisation of the inequalities of wealth and power – “Taking from the poor even what little they have…”

Americans like to see Europeans as Godless – when in reality they worship a different God, an Old Testament God – who condemn sodomy and sloth – whereas the Europeans worship the New Testament model of God as Love – and it doesn’t really matter whether people are secular (or Islamic) as long as they practice that love.

The above simplistic stereotypes of European and American’s are of course exactly that: Stereotypes. In reality the above theological disputes rage as much within American and European societies as it does between them.

But the dominant American theology and foreign, economic and social policy seems to be predicated on an old testament model of God, Society, and Man; The dominant European theology more on the Sermon on the Mount. Fundamentalist Americans seem to want to bring forward the prophesies of Armageddon. Europeans are happier to let God take his Time on that one.

European political discourse is of course cast in non religious terms – but it has Christian roots for all that. American political discourse is often much more overtly religious – but it is not necessarily more Christian for all that. In fact it often appears to worship a pre-Christian view of God and Man.

To Europeans George Bush and his War on Terror in Iraq epitomises this Old Testament Theology. Allowing him and those who support him to hijack Christianity would be to deny the coming of Christ. Europeans oppose Bush not because they have lost their religion, but because they continue to believe in the fundamental goodness of Man as represented in the New Testament.

Even Chirac, for all his venality, and the many mistakes made by France both past and present, has not lost sight of the fundamental mistake of trying to demonise those you oppose (often with good reason). Europe has learnt from its very chequered history. Some Americans seem condemned to repeat their mistakes at nauseam and ad infinitum – in a modern historical reincarnation of Dante’s Inferno.

[James]

The deepest problem that Old Europe has, as Ed rightly alludes to, is that it has abandonded Christianity.

The churches are empty. No one reproduces anymore. There is no underlying morality, or understanding of good and evil. Multiculturalism is king! We live for the self, because the government is our daddy!

This is truly what will doom Europe. The United States faces the same danger, but it is not anywhere near so far down into the pit as Europe, and will climb back out. Time is running out quickly for Europe to do so. It is unlikely that it will.

James

[James]

No Colin,

That lack of belief makes Europeans far weaker than both Muslims and Christians.

James

[dada]

it seems that pat robertson is an iconic figure in the states these days. that is sad ,and to witness the degeneratives points of view of some americans on this post is not only logic , but well expected.
for my part i consider the metissage of the american society as a pillar of hope for the world. it has helped europeans societies particularly britain and france to accept more and more their diversity and helped to shame some of our racists corners.
i hope that in 2008, the repuglicans will be ousted.

[Maggie Gassend]

Wow, Frank Schnittger, I like your comments.

How nice to see some reasonable, intelligent input again.

Some of the comments on this blog recently have been downright childish.

Thank-you for coming back.

[anna de brux]

James,

What is really your point? You whine and complain all the time about the French, the Europeans and almost about everything under the sun. Your problem is you actually feel and think inferior to Europeans. Man, that's mental gangrene!

We Europeans don't need your kind of American shit.

If you think that by saying the things that you are saying, you are convincing anybody here that you are better or that you are a 'cultured' fellow, you are uttelry wrong. There's nothing more pathetic than a person like you who thinks that what is not American is crap and that everything American is simply wonderful. You utter complete garbage!

In this day and age of high-tech (internet & other techs galore), sattelite communications systems (access to European media at your fingertips), cheap air fares (to be able to visit Europe and learn about human civilization), you could learn a bit more about Europe, so you could evolve into a better person, but no, you are so wrapped up in your prejudices - a typical warped, perverse, dumb American bully who absolutely knows nuthin' yet thinks he does. What a dangerous creature you make!

You are primitive and will remain primitive James if you remain so backward and prejudiced ! Grow up man!

[colin grayson]

james , moving the goal posts yet again doesn't alter the speciousness of your argument ; your line of argument says that, as muslim societies are , by and large , more religious than the USA , they are better ; true or false?
I don't know how long you have lived in europe in order to draw your conclusions , but my brief experience suggests that 80% of americans would have a better quality of life in w. europe ; and 90 % of people in the country I choose to live in also profess to believe in a higher being so where does that leave your argument?
the fact that I , personally , have come to believe that religion has become a source of intolerance in the world , but , unlike you , I don't try to impose my view on others ;

[Richard Jones]

Any religion that overarchs the major domains of life - economic, social, political - is dangerous wheresoever it comes to pass. This pyramid gives undeniable, unaccountable power to a few self-perpetuating religious icons.
Religions that support and guide by analogy and constructive criticism the aspects of life descibed above add strength to local, regional, national and supranational life.
Europe spent at least three centuries trying to get the second religio-structure in place. Todate progress but certainly not across the board success.
For many Europeans Islam and US Christians seem to be fighting to retain or rushing towards the overarching oligarchy.
Both these movements worry us.

[Robert Marchenoir]

Sorry, this is a bit unconnected with the top post.

Did Mr. Bremner follow the outrage raised on the French blogosphere by the "I don't like the rich" pronouncement made on television by François Hollande, leader of the socialist party and companion of Ségolène Royal, the likely socialist candidate for the presidency?

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/hollande/video/276002

It emerged, then, on the blogosphere, that the socialist "presidential couple" owned some real estate worth 915 000 €, which would qualifiy them as "rich" by many French people's standards:

http://www.societe.com/cgi-bin/recherche?rncs=377552955

The type of company they have registered to hold their assets (a "société civile immobilière") is often used -- in a perfectly legal way -- by co-owners of real estate in order to lower their taxes.

As far as I know, this extraordinary development has not been covered by the mainstream media.

You can bet that if Nicolas Sarkozy, the right-wing front-runner, had said something on the lines of "I don't like Arabs", or even "I don't like trade-unionists" or "I don't like civil servants", it would have made big headlines all over national newspapers and television.

And he would be politically dead by now.

[James]

"What is really your point?"

---

I'm glad you asked, Anna. Here are my two points:

First, I'm sickened and nauseated (like most Americans) by Europe's constantly telling us that America is the great Satan of the world;

Second, I'm trying to tell you French that if you don't deal with your problems, the world is going to pass you by (and fast too). I say that out of whatever lingering bonhomie might exist between our two nations.

James

[James]

"your line of argument says that, as muslim societies are, by and large, more religious than the USA , they are better ; true or false?"

False, Colin; I said no such thing. I said that irreligious societies are weaker than religious ones. They are. When people lose their reason for being (other than getting their pensions and vacations and never being offended for any reason), they slide down into decadence, moral decay, indecision, childlessness, and childishness.

As for imposing my views on others - I am not doing that at all! How could I? You can believe whatever you want. I am simply stating my views. I have no power to impose them on you (or anyone else)!

James

[Jaiye]

I am an American and I can say wholeheartedly that James does not speak for the majority. ... The problem over here is that so few people truly think for themselves; the vast majority hear something from one of the above sources and begin repeating it, but never question or investigate it. I weep for this country that we have come to this.

[James]

"For many Europeans Islam and US Christians seem to be fighting to retain or rushing towards the overarching oligarchy. Both these movements worry us."

---

Nonsense, Richard. In a free society (of which the US is generally one), religion is completely voluntary; people can choose to believe whatever they will. Same as in most European countries. The difference is: in many European countries most people have chosen to relinquish their faith; in the United States that has not happened to anywhere near a degree as in Europe. Hence, Americans (on average) see things VERY differently from Europeans (on average). They have vastly different worldviews.

Further, the state religion of Europe these days is atheistic secular humanism - which believes (falsely) that a good society can be formed by 'wise' people sitting around a table and devising a bazillion rules and regulations for everyone else. It is one of the oldest delusions of mankind that he can build a good society without God. It will not work for Europe, and if not reversed dramatically (which I doubt it will), will lead to the decay and rotting away of Europe's soul (of which very little is left).

Finally, the atheistic secular humanism religion of Europe is now tyrannically forced on much of Europe's populace, as freedoms of speech, religion and assocation are stripped from its populace.

Such never ends well. The people get weaker and weaker, and less able to say what they stand for (and the fear of standing for anything grows) - until one day, someone strong and amoral rises up to lead the sheep. Beware.

James

[Frank Schnittger]

This blog has moved a very long way from Gridlock in Vienna to the apparent Gridlock of the European Soul as divined by James!

He argues that "Further, the state religion of Europe these days is atheistic secular humanism - which believes (falsely) that a good society can be formed by 'wise' people sitting around a table and devising a bazillion rules and regulations for everyone else. It is one of the oldest delusions of mankind that he can build a good society without God"

This is a fairly standard view held by fundamentalist Christian evangelicals worldwide - regardless of where they come from - it is not a peculiarly American view just as Europeans do not have a monopoly on secular humanism. However James is right to say that the "average" American political view is probably couched in more fundamentalist religious terms than the average European one. This does not, however necessarily make it the more correct view.

One would have thought that the main question you should as of any particular view of religion is "is it true?" But this is not the question asked by right wing political ideologues. They view religion as having an essentially sociological function: to strengthen society and to enable some societies to dominate others.

It was Marx who said that "Religion is the Opium of the People" but the Neo conservative view is somewhat different. For them religion has the essential function of maintaining cohesion in society by maintaining the fiction that "all people are equally before God". This is of course strictly true for Christians. But the political twist for right wing ideologues is that they use it to maintain the fiction that very unequal and totalitarian societies (like America) still allow equal opportunity and individual Freedom.

The American constitution is based on (very European) ideals of the separation of Church and state. The Neoconservative project in the U.S. is essentially a counter revolution: to allow their church to control the state by the back door - through the hearts and minds of people they hope to delude into thinking that what they are about has anything to do with Christianity at all.

Fundamentalist Christians tend to talk about God as if he was their personal property. They too believe that "a good society can be formed by 'wise' people sitting around a table and devising a bazillion rules and regulations for everyone else". The only difference is that they then attempt to give their decisions the stamp of divine authority and use that authority to force "non-believers" - who can be anybody who doesn't conform to their very narrow brand of Christianity - to conform to their views and behaviours.

But most Fundamentalist Christians are very genuine and sincere people – even if politically rather naïve. They genuinely believe that if there values and beliefs where imposed on all then America and the World would be a better place. The Neo-conservative political project is altogether more cynical: It is to use the prevalence of a very literalist and simplistic (not to say idolatrous) brand of Christianity in America for overtly political ends. Their frustration with Europe is that they have no such large and gullible base of fundamentalist Christians to work off. The Neo-conservative project cannot take off in Europe unless there is some sort of millenarian evangelical religious revival in Europe.

Europe went through all that in the 17th, 18th., 19th., and 20th, centuries. We have no wish and no need to go through all that again. Ironically many of the European emigrants who colonised America did so to escape just that sort of religious persecution in Europe. Now history has turned full circle (as it often does) and the children of the persecuted have become the persecutors.

Conservative Americans genuinely cannot understand why many Europeans regard America as totalitarian and unfree – and it appears from recent polls – as great a danger to world peace as Iran. For Europeans the death penalty, one of the highest population of prisoners outside China (made up mostly of vulnerable minorities) , the militarization of political issues, Guantanamo, the control of virtually all media by powerful private interests, and the control of the political process itself by partisan interests are all symptoms of a very primitive and underdeveloped political culture.

But the biggest “unfreedom” in America is the almost total mind control which blinds people to what many Europeans see as a stark reality: the almost total control of most aspects of American public and private life by moneyed interests who have very successfully used Christianity as their tool to force compliance to a social structure that perpetuates that inequality and injustice.

What James sees as self-evidently “Christian” is to many Europeans the perversion of a noble tradition for self-interested ends – bordering on Fascism – and we have no wish to go there again. The self-righteousness and self aggrandizement at the heart of the Neo-conservative project is, in political terms, just a form of neo-imperialism, in religious terms it is the worst kind of idolatry – the worship of Self.

[Frank Schnittger]

Is everyone else on this blog being increasingly plagued by very intrusive advertising which blocks out the text you are trying to read and which responds to attempts to close it only after several attempts? It is getting so bad on many parts of the Timesonline site that I am starting to use the site less and less.

Charles - I think you may have to take this up with the powers that be. I cannot understand why advertisers think such crude and rude interference with user references will benefit their brand image in any way. I make a point of not noticing what the advertisement is for, but maybe I should start poitively discriminating against any advertiser (and website) which engages in such a stupid manipulation of my time and attention.

[john gregory Flinn]

"But the real argument is about the future, not the past. Having declared the “end of history” - the American Neo cons now appear to be seeing “reds under the bed” almost everywhere - although most of them are now termed islamofascists. It all sounds a bit like the demonisation of Jews by the Nazis and many others since."

We may be a bit off track here, but what should we make of this analogy?
One would have thought that all decent democrats would agree to demonize the perpetrators of 9-11, 7/7 (in UK), the bombings in Madrid, the Paris metro and Bali as well as the numerous plane hi-jackings etc., and their cause, its doctrines and apologists. And, without fearing comparison to the Nazis.

I do not recall any outrages even approaching these being committed by the Jews in pre-war Europe. Anyway their demonization was a political act, calculated and systematic to fulfill the philosophy of“Mein Kampf”.

Perhaps we are expected to 'turn the other cheek' - now, would that be a entreaty from the old or new Testaments.....?!

[colin grayson]

james , the most recent statistics I saw [ forgive me if they are a little out of date ] said that the number of people murdered with a pistol per annum in various countries were as follows

japan and australia .....less than 20
sweden and great britain .....under 40
canada ...less than 150
USA....over 30,000 [I read in the boston globe an estimate that over 800,000 such deaths occured in the 20th century ]

you may believe that is possible in a STRONGER society ; for myself , I beg to differ

like jaiye , I weep that that the USA has come to this from such promising beginnings

[Frank Schnittger]

James - I am not a scriptural scholar, nor, despite my attempts at engaging with those who use religious terminology in political discourse - am I a theologian.

However Google/Wikipedia (the bible of the internet age?) gives the following sources:

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."(Matthew 5:38-42, NIV)

A parallel version is offered in the Sermon on the Plain in the Gospel of Luke:

"But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,"

"Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." (Luke 6:28-31. King James Version)

Many would argue that such "whimpish" sentiments are wholly unrealistic and impractical in an age of terrorism. But it would be difficult to argue that they are not at the heart of what Christianity is all about - whether you like it or not.

The cruel irony is that the Neo-conservatives have managed to turn such an incredibly idealistic and generous set of beliefs into a justification for waging war at every opportunity with the most cruel weapons of mass destruction imaginable. A level of state sponsored destruction over many years (remember Vietnam?) which makes 9/11 and 7/7 appear as minor lapses it good taste by a few undesireables in comparison.

It is the utter hypocracy and cyncism of the neo-conservative project that so horrifies many Europeans. By all means behave like primitive barbarians if you have to. (You have so much in common with the Islamofascists, and Europe too has a sorry history from which we are trying to escape). But do you have to hijack and pervert a very fine tradition to camoflage what you are really all about?

[anna de brux]

Oh my! Goodness me Frank Schnittger!

That was one beautiful read.

I hope the whole of America could read it because it is a "philosophical treatise" of sorts but very, very, very simply put.

I believe Americans will appreciate the way you explained the fundamental religious, ideological "divide" existing between Europe and America today - you explained it methodically, coherently and without the slightest hint of aggression - very European indeed.

James and other Americans like him must be told that Europeans DO NOT regad America as the Satan of the world. They should not be so totally, utterly besotted with their importance as Americans that they become so horridly backward about Europe.

Americans must do away with exagerating and magnifying a European view that runs counter to theirs as something fundamentally anti-America.

The freedom to say, "I do not accept the view by Bush and his friends regarding this or that" must not be equated with being anti-America. To do so is symptomatic, and I shall borrow from Frank, of a very primitive and underdeveloped political culture.

[James]

"They genuinely believe that if there values and beliefs where imposed on all then America and the World would be a better place."

---

Another false statement concerned about the 'imposition' of values.

My point (wholly different) is that Europe has lost its Christian values and worldview to a large degree - and that that will cause things to end poorly for Europe.

It's already happening, but the Euros are too clouded to see it.

James

[James]

"The American constitution is based on (very European) ideals of the separation of Church and state."

---

And another falsity. There is no 'separation of church and state' in America's constitution. Only the ban on Congress' establishing a state religion (such as England has), and the promise that everyone (in government or not) may freely exercise his religion. Finally, there is a ban on establishing any religious test for governmental office. People in the United States are free to advocate religion or religious belief while in office (as President Bush often does).

James

[James]

"What James sees as self-evidently “Christian” is to many Europeans the perversion of a noble tradition for self-interested ends – bordering on Fascism – and we have no wish to go there again. The self-righteousness and self aggrandizement at the heart of the Neo-conservative project is, in political terms, just a form of neo-imperialism, in religious terms it is the worst kind of idolatry – the worship of Self.'

---

My goodness Frank. Let's see, Americans live under 'mind control,' our country is on the verge of 'Fascism,' and we idolize self!

This universe, Frank, this universe.

James

[dada]

speaking of universe.
what happened to this tv character from the spin of the twilight zone.
you know, dick cheney.

[James]

"Americans must do away with exagerating and magnifying a European view that runs counter to theirs as something fundamentally anti-America."

---

American and Europe no longer share the same values.

We will see in a hundred years who was smarter.

I know where I'd place my bet.

James

James - thank you for confirming much of my thesis about the mutual incomprehension between Americans and Europeans.

When Europe had lots of formal religion (I hesitate to call it Christianity) it had a long succession of largely religiously inspired wars. Now that formal religious practice has greatly declined, Europe is largely at peace. What you call atheistic secular humanism is often far closer to New Testament Christianity in practice than the muscular Old Testament Christianity and Zionism advocated by neoconservatives.

However Europeans are shy about claiming divine justification or support for their political policies even when they are religious - partly because we know no policy is perfect, but mainly because we regard it as presumptuous in the extreme for anyone to claim they have a direct line to God. There is an ancient Jewish tradition that God is too sacred for mere mortals to even call out His Name. For some neoconservatives it appears that God is merely a Brand name to help merchandise their latest line in imperialistic policies.

My point is you do not simply misunderstand Europeans; you actually misunderstand Christianity as well. If you want a religion that will help to justify your political ideology and fulfil your societal needs for cohesion you might be better off adopting Islam instead (although many Moslem scholars will dispute that Islam can be used to justify war).

My point is: American foreign policy bears no relationship to Christianity in practice - though "Christian" values are often used by Neo-conservatives to justify their power grabs around the world. I read somewhere that the US has a significant military presence in over one hundred countries around the world. This seems a very high figure to me - maybe you can give me a more accurate one. But my point is why?